Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[Azuref]

Starmie for A

With Rotom-W everywhere right now, Starmie has kinda gotten the cold shoulder with everyone switching to Excadrill as their spinner of choice. However, the things that made Starmie the best spinner last gen are definitely still relevant: its great coverage and speed. While there's been quite a bit of speed creep, 115 is still a very good speed tier to hit, and surf/thunderbolt/ice beam is just as effective as it's always been. Because of these qualities, Starmie is almost never dead weight on an offensive team, and can spin very reliably with its offensive pressure.

I have to disagree. I believe that Starmie is B+ rank because weather nerfs have severely hurt it.

One of Starmie's strength last gen was its ability to attack with rain boosted hydro-pumps and 100% accurate thunders. There is almost no reason not to use Excadrill over it. Starmie is a spinner first and foremost. 60/85/85 defenses are not good enough to tank hits. 100 SpA/115 Spe are decent sweeping stats, but there are much faster, hard-hitting sweepers (e.g. Alakazam, Greninja) that you could be using.

You have the choice of Analytic or Natural Cure Starmie. Analytic hits harder but if you don't have any grounded poison to absorb Toxic spikes, Excadrill outclasses it.

However, Starmie has definite and various niches:

• You need a coverage attack, for example, Psychic/Psyshock for M-Venusaur, or Ice Beam for Dragons/Gliscor.
• You don't want to get rid of your own hazards with defog and...
• You already have too many Steel and/or Ground types in your team.
• You run a stall team and may need to rapid spin several times.

It's best set right now (assuming we agree spinning is its game) is
Rapid Spin
Scald
Coverage
Coverage.

Rapid Spin is mandatory. Scald has only 10 less BP but that burn chance which can give you the edge against would be pursuiters such as TTAR or Scizor. Pick the coverage moves that fit your team best or maybe, maybe Recover, if you run stall. Avalugg joins Starmie as one of the few rapid spinners with reliable recovery, but Avalugg doesn't even do its job correctly so forget about it.

For these reasons, I nominate Starmie for B+

 

[Hallucination]

The damage calc was a mixup on my end. That 252+ lando-t is Zygarde, since it wasn't on a current damage calculator and I had to do it manual. I still don't see why you think Aegislash should move down. You've given little evidence to support it other than a weak argument about the blade form, which is really a non-factor when King's Shield switches you over. Also, Aegislash is ordinarily carrying 0 speed ivs, which makes it slower than Hippowdon. I still don't know why you insist on bringing up Lando-T, who has no reliable recovery outside of Leftovers. If you're seriously saying that Landorus-T needs to be at full HP to take a Shadow ball, you're proving why Aegislash is S material.



S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

In bold. Do you seriously not see how Aegislash could be S ? Nobody's trying to get Aegislash Banned. Hell, Kyurem-B was like A or B last gen, and people were trying to get that suspect tested. It fills the criteria, therefore it is S.

No i really dont.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Did I mention Mandibuzz yet?

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-200 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-172 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 113-133 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 157-187 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 113-134 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 88-105 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 82-97 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 92-109 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 144-172 (40.6 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 175-208 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

My Favorite
Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. Bulletproof Chesnaught: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time

Oh god , I'd love to see your "other ways" of getting Hippo in on a shadow ball other than a ridiculous stream of switches....which if either of these switches is predicted, you either lose one of your pokemon or take a substantial amount. Aegislash only gives free switches on the King's Shield, and even then, it's got 150 defenses. Also, what's Hippo going to do if your opponent switches out to something to start setting up Hazards, Toxics you, Taunts, etc.

The point is, Aegislash forces YOU to make the predictions. With King's Shield, it doesn't have much to fear. Your opponent loses nothing by playing it safe, because even if you predict that, they've got a number of attacks that would cripple you, as well as 5 other pokemon to deal with you. I think you're really underestimating just how much Shadow Ball does. It 2HKOs just about anything, and walls can be worn down, even if they have recovery. Aegislash is the epitome of mind games. It's the Russian Roulette of pokemon, essentially.

Man just sack a weakened pokemon that has done its job or is to weak to do its job and bring it in. Trust me, it works.

 

[Punchshroom]

No i really dont.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Did I mention Mandibuzz yet?

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-200 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-172 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 113-133 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 157-187 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 113-134 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 88-105 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 82-97 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 92-109 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 144-172 (40.6 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 175-208 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

My Favorite
Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. Bulletproof Chesnaught: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time



Man just sack a weakened pokemon that has done its job or is to weak to do its job and bring it in. Trust me, it works.

Honestly those calcs only reinforce my belief that Aegislash should be S Rank. Nearly all of those are 2HKOes after Stealth Rock, and I love how you used stuff like Regice and Bisharp (and fucking Sylveon really?) in that calc when Sacred Sword (or Steel move for Sylveon lol) swiftly ends them so they cannot switch in with impunity. A lot of these Pokemon are also slower than Aegislash, so the sword gets to land 2 hits on them. You are severely underestimating how good Ghost STAB is, and how there are few Pokemon that can both switch in and beat Aegislash comfortably, especially when you factor in King's Shield or Autotomize improving its matchup against faster Pokemon. Its offensive movepool may not be wide but it can be precise, since it has Head Smash to total unwary Mandibuzz, and Flash Cannon to destroy Bulletproof Chesnaught. Also, preparing for Shadow Ball variants alone can leave you very ironically vulnerable to the Swords Dancing ones.

 

[JustLetMePlay]

No i really dont.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Did I mention Mandibuzz yet?

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-200 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-172 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 113-133 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 157-187 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 113-134 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 88-105 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 82-97 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 92-109 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 144-172 (40.6 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 175-208 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

My Favorite
Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. Bulletproof Chesnaught: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time



Man just sack a weakened pokemon that has done its job or is to weak to do its job and bring it in. Trust me, it works.

You might as well have just posted every normal type in the game, because I agree Shadow Ball only Aegislash is definitely not S Class.

 

[Hallucination]

Honestly those calcs only reinforce my belief that Aegislash should be S Rank. Nearly all of those are 2HKOes after Stealth Rock, and I love how you used stuff like Regice and Bisharp (and fucking Sylveon really?) in that calc when Sacred Sword (or Steel move for Sylveon lol) swiftly ends them so they cannot switch in with impunity. A lot of these Pokemon are also slower than Aegislash, so the sword gets to land 2 hits on them. You are severely underestimating how good Ghost STAB is, and how there are few Pokemon that can both switch in and beat Aegislash comfortably, especially when you factor in King's Shield or Autotomize improving its matchup against faster Pokemon. Its offensive movepool may not be wide but it can be precise, since it has Head Smash to total unwary Mandibuzz, and Flash Cannon to destroy Bulletproof Chesnaught. Also, preparing for Shadow Ball variants alone can leave you very ironically vulnerable to the Swords Dancing ones.

4 Move Slot Syndrome, Cant carry King Shield/Automize/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Sacred Sword/Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Head Smash/Swords Dance now can you?

Also, Aegislash is quiet with 0 Speed IVs so they outspeed. With new Defog mechanics you cant bank on SR.

You might as well have just posted every normal type in the game, because I agree Shadow Ball only Aegislash is definitely not S Class.

I mean, I guess I could have.

 

[Josh Morales]

No i really dont.

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 142-169 (46.7 - 55.5%) -- 17.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Sneak vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-W: 196-231 (64.4 - 75.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Did I mention Mandibuzz yet?

252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 218-257 (46.9 - 55.3%) -- 15.6% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Bisharp: 138-164 (41.3 - 49.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 169-200 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran: 144-172 (37.3 - 44.5%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Hydreigon: 113-133 (34.7 - 40.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Assault Vest Machamp: 157-187 (40.8 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Houndoom: 113-134 (38.6 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar: 88-105 (21.7 - 25.9%) -- 2.9% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Gyarados: 82-97 (24.6 - 29.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Milotic: 172-203 (43.6 - 51.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Regice: 113-134 (31 - 36.8%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Scrafty: 92-109 (33.9 - 40.2%) -- 38.7% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Suicune: 185-218 (45.7 - 53.9%) -- 2.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Swampert: 161-191 (39.8 - 47.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss: 136-161 (36.3 - 43%) -- 98.2% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Umbreon: 62-74 (15.7 - 18.7%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Altaria: 144-172 (40.6 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 228+ SpD Amoonguss: 175-208 (40.5 - 48.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Dragalge: 130-153 (38.9 - 45.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Black Sludge recovery

My Favorite
Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. Bulletproof Chesnaught: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- aim for the horn next time



Man just sack a weakened pokemon that has done its job or is to weak to do its job and bring it in. Trust me, it works.

You aren't proving anything here
and you aren't getting anywhere close to it. Your calcs are also against the meta in almost every one of this. A good example is that noone uses specially defensive Rotom-Wash when you calced Shadow Ball vs fully specially defensive Rotom-Wash when the better, metagame Rotom-Wash, which is physically defensive, gets completely and utterly wallbroken by Shadow Ball and many other errors like, for example, the unrealistic use of Shadow Ball versus Bisharp lol when Sacred Sword evaporates the thing. You are quite obviously trying to bend the data in your favor and on top of that all of your "points" and "reasoning" are easily countered by our arguments and the you retaliate with a pathetic excuse for a counterargument that can be combatted with common sense. I willl just advise you to lurk and obtain more experience before you relentlessly and annoyingly try and argue for things that are quite obviously untrue, to an experienced mind.

 

[Ropeburn]

-snip of completely irrelevant calculations-
Man just sack a weakened pokemon that has done its job or is to weak to do its job and bring it in. Trust me, it works.

I am done arguing with you, if you seriously just used that as an argument then you've just proven how little you know about Pokemon. You just said you basically have to "Sacrifice" a pokemon to come in on aegislash freely and you still slap me in the face with irrelevant damage calcs. I cannot believe you just posted a damage calc for Altaria in an OU thread and thought that was a good idea.


Is your keyboard attached to your ass, because that was a shitty argument...

 

[Hallucination]

You aren't proving anything here
and you aren't getting anywhere close to it. Your calcs are also against the meta in almost every one of this. A good example is that noone uses specially defensive Rotom-Wash when you calced Shadow Ball vs fully specially defensive Rotom-Wash when the better, metagame Rotom-Wash, which is physically defensive, gets completely and utterly wallbroken by Shadow Ball and many other errors like, for example, the unrealistic use of Shadow Ball versus Bisharp lol when Sacred Sword evaporates the thing. You are quite obviously trying to bend the data in your favor and on top of that all of your "points" and "reasoning" are easily countered by our arguments and the you retaliate with a pathetic excuse for a counterargument that can be combatted with common sense. I willl just advise you to lurk and obtain more experience before you relentlessly and annoyingly try and argue for things that are quite obviously untrue, to an experienced mind.

http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

Go click Rotom-W and see what set comes up.

I am done arguing with you, if you seriously just used that as an argument then you've just proven how little you know about Pokemon. You just said you basically have to "Sacrifice" a pokemon to come in on aegislash freely and you still slap me in the face with irrelevant damage calcs. I cannot believe you just posted a damage calc for Altaria in an OU thread and thought that was a good idea.

I gave you other ways but apparently everything is shit to you. WHY IS COMING IN LIKE A CHECK SUCH A BIG DEAL?

 

[Josh Morales]

4 Move Slot Syndrome, Cant carry King Shield/Automize/Shadow Ball/Shadow Sneak/Sacred Sword/Iron Head/Flash Cannon/Head Smash/Swords Dance now can you?

Also, Aegislash is quiet with 0 Speed IVs so they outspeed. With new Defog mechanics you cant bank on SR.



I mean, I guess I could have.

That's also why Aegislash is so versatile and unpredictable, another reason why it's S rank.

 

[BROloom]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

Go click Rotom-W and see what set comes up.

Doesn't matter what comes up, Aegislash comes up as the physical set automatically, and we established the special is more common.

 

[Josh Morales]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/

Go click Rotom-W and see what set comes up.

I've seen this before too but all recommended sets on showdown are outdated(if the any need to change). There is a thing called a new meta.

 

[DaiGuren]

You aren't proving anything here
and you aren't getting anywhere close to it. Your calcs are also against the meta in almost every one of this. A good example is that noone uses specially defensive Rotom-Wash when you calced Shadow Ball vs fully specially defensive Rotom-Wash when the better, metagame Rotom-Wash, which is physically defensive, gets completely and utterly wallbroken by Shadow Ball and many other errors like, for example, the unrealistic use of Shadow Ball versus Bisharp lol when Sacred Sword evaporates the thing. You are quite obviously trying to bend the data in your favor and on top of that all of your "points" and "reasoning" are easily countered by our arguments and the you retaliate with a pathetic excuse for a counterargument that can be combatted with common sense. I willl just advise you to lurk and obtain more experience before you relentlessly and annoyingly try and argue for things that are quite obviously untrue, to an experienced mind.

I wasn't gonna post anything but yeah, more than half of the mons on those calcs are, for the most part, irrelevant to the meta. And those that are relevant are hit severely by one or two of Aegislash' coverage moves.

 

[Punchshroom]

Fact of the matter is, Aegislash can switch into a shitton of threats in the meta, then proceed to land a stupid strong hit on almost anything on the opposing team with whatever the fuck it has: you won't know until it's too late. A Pokemon's entire Rank can fall just because it fares poorly against Aegislash, like Jirachi for example. It is the reason why Sylveons think about carrying Shadow Ball, why special Lucarios carry Dark Pulse, why Terrakions now bother with Earthquake, a good reason for Bisharp's popularity (in countering King's Shield with Defiant), etc. This sword has centralized a good portion of the meta around itself, since it has so many easy switch-ins, great offensive power, and can run so many sets to screw up almost anything that would've been considered a safe response while still remaining an offensive threat.

 

[I2edShift]

S Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

TTar is capable of 2HKO's just about the entire damn game, supports a team with sand, can sweep with Dragon Dance or Weakness Policy + Rock Polish sets, has great bulk, and has more viable sets than just about any other Pokemon in the game. I'm aware of its many weaknesses, susceptibility to entry hazards & priority, and slow speed. Despite those shortcomings that still doesn't change the fact that it's so versatile that can be put on almost any team to run anything you need it to. Also, steel type nerf helps out with Crunch spamming.

Tyranitar for A+

 

[Ropeburn]

http://pokemonshowdown.com/damagecalc/


I gave you other ways but apparently everything is shit to you. WHY IS COMING IN LIKE A CHECK SUCH A BIG DEAL?

Alright, this is the last post to you... Most of the pokemon in that list are not relevant in the slightest, besides heatran. Vaporeon isn't all that great this gen, Bisharp is pretty niche, Gastrodon does not run 252 hp/sp.def,hydreigon isn't all that good, machamp isn't even relevant, I'm not even going to acknowledge your calcs for mega pokemon because they are MEGA POKEMON, Milotic sucks, Regice is disgustingly bad, scrafty isn't even all that good in UU last gen, Suicune isn't relevant, and can't touch Aegislash, Swampert sucks in OU, Sylveon rarely runs sp.def, togekiss doesn't run sp.def, umbreon isn't relevant, altaria....oh god ahahaha, amoonguss is literally the epitome of stall, and can't do anything but spore, and Dragalge won't be relevant until Adaptability comes out.

TL;DR: The fact that you slapped up several pokemon with full HP/Sp.def or Assault Vests, I can't help but to think that you really don't know what you're saying at this point and are literally just swinging in the dark. You fail to understand what a counter/check is.

 

[Richitt]

TTar is capable of 2HKO's just about the entire damn game, supports a team with sand, can sweep with Dragon Dance or Weakness Policy + Rock Polish sets, has great bulk, and has more viable sets than just about any other Pokemon in the game. I'm aware of its many weaknesses, susceptibility to entry hazards & priority, and slow speed. Despite those shortcomings that still doesn't change the fact that it's so versatile that can be put on almost any team to run anything you need it to.

Tyranitar for : +A

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I always thought of it but was too afraid to speak up, since it almost seems commonly "accepted" that Tyranitar is good to go.

He might be weak to physical fighting attacks, but he can strike back the users hard himself, as the pure fighting types are rare, and Tyranitar's good move pool generally allows him to hit the second type hard. And if the fighting attack is special, it usually doesn't even ohko, sometimes not even 2hko'ing depending on set.

His versatility is now legendary, with various possible sets ranging from assault vest to dragon dance mega.

For S tier, while he can't sweep with little support, he can support with little cost (his ability, rocks, tanking power), but the real thing is in his superb versatility. This guy does everything.

I am probably wrong in my opinion, but I still really needed to get that off.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

TTar is capable of 2HKO's just about the entire damn game, supports a team with sand, can sweep with Dragon Dance or Weakness Policy + Rock Polish sets, has great bulk, and has more viable sets than just about any other Pokemon in the game. I'm aware of its many weaknesses, susceptibility to entry hazards & priority, and slow speed. Despite those shortcomings that still doesn't change the fact that it's so versatile that can be put on almost any team to run anything you need it to. Also, steel type nerf helps out with Crunch spamming.

Tyranitar for A+

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I always thought of it but was too afraid to speak up, since it almost seems commonly "accepted" that Tyranitar is good to go.

He might be weak to physical fighting attacks, but he can strike back the users hard himself, as the pure fighting types are rare, and Tyranitar's good move pool generally allows him to hit the second type hard. And if the fighting attack is special, it usually doesn't even ohko, sometimes not even 2hko'ing depending on set.

His versatility is now legendary, with various possible sets ranging from assault vest to dragon dance mega.

For S tier, while he can't sweep with little support, he can support with little cost (his ability, rocks, tanking power), but the real thing is in his superb versatility. This guy does everything.

I am probably wrong in my opinion, but I still really needed to get that off.

Any of Tyranitar's individual sets alone aren't enough to get past A imo. The fact that he can run support, Special walling, or attacking helps his case, but since you treat them all pretty similarly, I think A is still the right rank for him. There are better Dragon Dance sweepers, special walls, and stealth rock setters, so he won't make A+ on those. His sand stream is nice, but not the sole reason why people run him, plus sand support isn't exactly huge this gen. A is a great rank that shows how good he is, but points out that he's not the end of your team if you don't have specific precautions.

 

[I2edShift]

I'm glad you mentioned that, as I always thought of it but was too afraid to speak up, since it almost seems commonly "accepted" that Tyranitar is good to go.

He might be weak to physical fighting attacks, but he can strike back the users hard himself, as the pure fighting types are rare, and Tyranitar's good move pool generally allows him to hit the second type hard. And if the fighting attack is special, it usually doesn't even ohko, sometimes not even 2hko'ing depending on set.

His versatility is now legendary, with various possible sets ranging from assault vest to dragon dance mega.

For S tier, while he can't sweep with little support, he can support with little cost (his ability, rocks, tanking power), but the real thing is in his superb versatility. This guy does everything.

I am probably wrong in my opinion, but I still really needed to get that off.

Exactly.

Tyranitar does need some support to properly sweep through teams, but almost all of the best of sweepers need the exact same thing to varying degrees. Except maybe Mega Lucario. It can be done, and I've done it a few times with both DDance and Weakness Policy/Rock Polish sets. The latter takes more than a few people by surprise.

It's because of it's weakness to priority & entry hazards that I wont lobby for S. It's not there. But it is one of the best & most versatile things in the game.

 

[I2edShift]

Any of Tyranitar's individual sets alone aren't enough to get past A imo. The fact that he can run support, Special walling, or attacking helps his case, but since you treat them all pretty similarly, I think A is still the right rank for him. There are better Dragon Dance sweepers, special walls, and stealth rock setters, so he won't make A+ on those. His sand stream is nice, but not the sole reason why people run him, plus sand support isn't exactly huge this gen. A is a great rank that shows how good he is, but points out that he's not the end of your team if you don't have specific precautions.

The overall point is that it's effective versatility eclipses just about everything in OU. Yes, there are better options for certain sets. But none of them can mix-match move sets like TTar can and remain effective in such a broad & viable way in OU.

 

[Kairyu_Gen1]

The overall point is that it's effective versatility eclipses just about everything in OU. Yes, there are better options for certain sets. But none of them can mix-match move sets like TTar can and remain effective in such a broad & viable way in OU.

Sure, Ttar is versatile, but its not the best at any one thing. Another pokemon renown for its versatility is Dragonite, but is also A because of its huge reliance on spinners to keep SR off the field. Ttar's downfall is that it is just really, really great, but not perfect. Since there's no clear line between A and A+, I can't say for certain that Ttar is A and not A+, but when you look at the list of A+, you see a bunch of pokemon that are the best at what they do (even if I disagree with some of them). Ttar does not fit in that list.

 

[November Blue]

I've been reading through the last five or six pages of this thread, and there's so much I want to say.

Firstly, all of these Aegislash calcs are irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Shadow Ball deals 60% instead of 70%. Aegislash is a pivot. Its job is to switch in and force something out, then nuke the switchin with a powerful attack, usually Shadow Ball.

What's important is that Aegislash's Shadow Ball easily 2HKOs the vast majority of the metagame. Shadow Ball > King's Shield > Shadow Ball threatens a 2HKO on so many things that it's not funny, and AegiShield is difficult to OHKO in return.

Please stop using Shadow Sneak as a goto STAB move. If you're not running Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw is almost required, I'd imagine.


Secondly, I'd like to argue for Chansey and Florges to be taken off the list entirely.

Chansey sucks. It has no Leftovers recovery, no offensive presence, and is extremely vulnerable to Trick, Switcheroo, and Knock Off. These moves render it total deadweight, which is unacceptable IMO.

It's inferior to Blissey, who has Leftovers and some offensive presence. Blissey can run Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Chansey has to rely on Seismic Toss.

Chansey gives your opponent momentum. Status and Seismic Toss is all it can do, which makes it easy setup bait. Its lack of resistances knocks its bulk down a peg too; Rotom-W's Volt Switch will do absolutely nothing to Mega Venusaur just, like Chansey. If you want a cleric, Blissey and Sylveon outclass it by miles. Chansey takes hits really well, but that's pretty much all it can do, unfortunately.

Now, Florges. I've used this thing somewhat extensively, and while it is a good Pokemon, and performs well in OU, it's 100% outclassed by Sylveon, and therefore has no justifiable reason to be used.

I have more to say on Florges, but I have to go now.

 

[Punchshroom]

I've been reading through the last five or six pages of this thread, and there's so much I want to say.

Firstly, all of these Aegislash calcs are irrelevant. It doesn't matter that Shadow Ball deals 60% instead of 70%. Aegislash is a pivot. Its job is to switch in and force something out, then nuke the switchin with a powerful attack, usually Shadow Ball.

What's important is that Aegislash's Shadow Ball easily 2HKOs the vast majority of the metagame. Shadow Ball > King's Shield > Shadow Ball threatens a 2HKO on so many things that it's not funny, and AegiShield is difficult to OHKO in return.

Please stop using Shadow Sneak as a goto STAB move. If you're not running Shadow Ball, Shadow Claw is almost required, I'd imagine.


Secondly, I'd like to argue for Chansey and Florges to be taken off the list entirely.

Chansey sucks. It has no Leftovers recovery, no offensive presence, and is extremely vulnerable to Trick, Switcheroo, and Knock Off. These moves render it total deadweight, which is unacceptable IMO.

It's inferior to Blissey, who has Leftovers and some offensive presence. Blissey can run Flamethrower and Ice Beam. Chansey has to rely on Seismic Toss.

Chansey gives your opponent momentum. Status and Seismic Toss is all it can do, which makes it easy setup bait. Its lack of resistances knocks its bulk down a peg too; Rotom-W's Volt Switch will do absolutely nothing to Mega Venusaur just, like Chansey. If you want a cleric, Blissey and Sylveon outclass it by miles. Chansey takes hits really well, but that's pretty much all it can do, unfortunately.

Now, Florges. I've used this thing somewhat extensively, and while it is a good Pokemon, and performs well in OU, it's 100% outclassed by Sylveon, and therefore has no justifiable reason to be used.

I have more to say on Florges, but I have to go now.

I'm not sure what to say about Chansey for now, but I can easily agree on Florges.

Florges is outright eclipsed by Sylveon; the latter has everything the former has and more. Sylveon can even run a more capable offensive set (aka Specs, not Calm Mind), with Pixilated Hyper Voice and Shadow Ball being far better than the Grass moves Florges has, which is literally the worst coverage option Florges could ask for.

Oh, and the thing about Sylveon performing an offensive role? Yeah, it gives MegaVoir a run for its money as well since Pixilated Hyper Voice is not even the latter's niche anymore (though it does do Calm Mind better). MegaVoir is fast, but not fast enough to outspeed the prominent offensive threats, leaving its better matchups to more defensive Pokemon. Sylveon's Speed is terrible but is still enough to outspeed plenty of defensive Pokemon with investment (up to ~Rotom-W), while sporting enough bulk on both ends of the spectrum to take a hit or two from faster Pokemon and smash them with Specs Pixiliated Hyper Voice. Even in its Mega-form, Gardevoir faces competition even without its bulk and speed issues plaguing it. I mean, at least Modest Mega-Alakazam has both better speed and power than Life Orb Timid Alakazam while being able to outspeed near everything, but MegaVoir's upgrades don't seem very worth it at all.

 

[Richitt]

The thing about Gardevoir is it has a larger offensive movepool in general.

You can also run a bulky support type, using Gardevoir's special bulk and use its excellent support movepool (which it literally has anything one could want except a reliable recovery).

 

[Slashari]

Okay, this may sound crazy to some, but I'd like to nominate Zygarde for B-/C+ rank. At first, it may seem totally and completely outclassed by the likes of Garchomp, but, a deeper search reveals Zygarde gets a more defensive stat spread, and some toys Garchomp could only dream of: awesome boosting moves in the form of Dragon Dance and Coil. It's stats are a tad bit underwhelming for a legendary Dragon, but are pretty balanced at the same time. It has high physical bulk, and decent defensive typing, allowing it to run defensive sets that can sponge physical hits quite well. In fact, this thing has better bulk than Hippowdon, the wall of all walls. Zygarde is very versatile, and works nicely as a ParaShuffler, thanks to access to Glare and Dragon Tail. Hazard support is very benefeicial, and, Sitting behind a substitute, 'Garde performs this role pretty well, crippling unprepared teams.

On the Offensive front, Zygarde's stats aren't terrible, but at the same time, aren't amazing. It can function as a bulky Dragon Dancer, and has access to nice priority in Extremespeed, and decent STAB in Earthquake and Outrage. While you may think that Dragonite absolutely destroys Zygarde in this aspect, Zygarde's better bulk after Dragonite's Multiscale is broken helps in setting up. Running a Coil set, Zygarde becomes pretty hard to kill physically, gets perfect accuracy Stone Edge (I believe), and finds lots of opportunities to set up. It can tank hits while dealing major damage, and after a boost, this thing gets even harder to revenge kill than it already was.

Unfortunately, Zygarde has a 4x weakness to Ice, meaning even max Special Defense/HP sets are OHKO'ed by Greninja's LO Ice Beam. In addition, it's ability, Aura Break, is basically useless in OU, and it's only two physical Dragon moves are Outrage and Dragon Tail. Access toi EdgeQuake is nice, but having a Dragon STAB is almost a necessity, and being locked into Outrage with Fairies being a thing isn't as great of a strategy as it was in previous generations. His movepool, while offering good coverage, is pretty disappointing given his apparent role in the game. All in all, I think Zygarde is a pretty good Pokemon, but needs the right environment to function well. It is somewhat outclassed by its brethren, but has a nice niche in this metagame. Oh yeah, his Signature Move is a worse version of Earthquake.

 

[Punchshroom]

Moved Zygarde ===> B- for now

This was supposed to be done ages quite some time ago really (quote taken last Friday), it's just that for some reason it has yet to be implemented.

The thing about Gardevoir is it has a larger offensive movepool in general.

You can also run a bulky support type, using Gardevoir's special bulk and use its excellent support movepool (which it literally has anything one could want except a reliable recovery).

Yeah Gardevoir could use its wide offensive movepool to threaten a good majority of offensive Pokemon if it could outspeed them, but MegaVoir does not, you see. Most of the things MegaVoir can take on, regular Gardevoir can also beat, and even more should Garde wield a Scarf.

So you are saying Garde is worse off than clerics that do have reliable recovery? Because they do exist: Clefable, Blissey and Togekiss come to mind. When you say Garde has a support movepool that has everything, the only ones I could think of that don't involve Gardevoir KOing itself are Will-O-Wisp, Encore and Heal Bell (granted, the combination of Will-O + Heal Bell is unique), the others include Memento, Healing Wish, and Destiny Bond. These are interesting moves to say the least and could see use on MegaVoir, but these moves aren't exactly unique and can be used by other (faster) Pokemon such as Lati@s and Gengar, while even Scarf Gardevoir can use these moves well anyway.