Other XY OU Viability Ranking Thread (B- and C+ Pokemon discussion)

[ClockworkLad]

Manaphy wrecks this washing machine.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And that's assuming the Rotom-W has its Specially Defensive set. Let's see what a T-Bolt does to Manaphy;

4 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Manaphy out-speeds and counter attacks with Energy Ball. Sorry Rotom.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Talonflame S rank again please. While it does have sure fire checks and counters, the issue is the huge stress it puts on team building forcing all teams to run Rotom-W/Heatran/Tyranitar. You don't run one of these or other niche more unviable stuff you are completely destroyed. Really think Talon puts too much restrictions on team building and therefore should be S rank.

Actually, I run Heatran on all my teams for Genesect. Just so happens I also get to counter Talonflame with him.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Actually, I run Heatran on all my teams for Genesect. Just so happens I also get to counter Talonflame with him.

This is completely true, Talonflame's checks are all very viable in the current metagame. The point he's trying to make I think is that if you don't run one of these checks, you're screwed. CB Talonflame basically says no to priority and scarfers and puts a lot of pressure on teams. If your team has one physical wall and it doesn't take on Talonflame (let's say something like Chesnaught or Mega Venusaur), you're gonna have a hard time. Safe switchins are limited to Rock-types, defensive Electric-types (essentially only Rotom-W and Rotom-H), Heatran (only Steel-type that takes on Talonflame I believe, even Empoleon will get wrecked by Flare Blitz) and ofcourse dedicated physical walls like Landorus-T, Slowbro, Gliscor etc. I personally think that warrants S rank too, it's just a one of a kind pokemon and the pressure it puts on teambuilding is almost unmatched when you think about it.

 

[____________]

Man I love running 5 move sub disale gengar too, what do you run for your 6th slot? I run HP fire but I'm starting to think sludge bomb would be better

I don't think you get what I'm saying. You can't really predict Gengar's 4-move set, so you'd be more weary coming in on Gengar with Tyranitar, which is almost as bad as my friend over there coming in on Gengar with a Conkeldurr hoping to outspeed it.

That was a nice spin on my point though, I laughed.

 

[RufflesPro]

Actually, I run Heatran on all my teams for Genesect. Just so happens I also get to counter Talonflame with him.

Lol me too, I also run HP Rock on him to counter Charizard Y and Talonflame, helped me a lot ...

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

This is completely true, Talonflame's checks are all very viable in the current metagame. The point he's trying to make I think is that if you don't run one of these checks, you're screwed. CB Talonflame basically says no to priority and scarfers and puts a lot of pressure on teams. If your team has one physical wall and it doesn't take on Talonflame (let's say something like Chesnaught or Mega Venusaur), you're gonna have a hard time. Safe switchins are limited to Rock-types, defensive Electric-types (essentially only Rotom-W and Rotom-H), Heatran (only Steel-type that takes on Talonflame I believe, even Empoleon will get wrecked by Flare Blitz) and ofcourse dedicated physical walls like Landorus-T, Slowbro, Gliscor etc. I personally think that warrants S rank too, it's just a one of a kind pokemon and the pressure it puts on teambuilding is almost unmatched when you think about it.

Obviously you're screwed if you don't run a check to a threat. If you don't run a Ttar, fairy type, dedicated special sponge or a steel type, you're bound to get fucked over by Latios as an example. I'm not saying that Talonflame isn't a great pokemon, because it truly is, but I don't think it warrants S rank due to the flaws it holds. It relies on recoil moves, meaning it'll get fucked over by itself in the long run (and you may argue that it has a good chance at bringing mons down in the time, but I can also argue that due to me carrying a Hippowdon I can simply slack off the damage). It simply holds no way to get around it's checks either (unless you consider Solarbeam+Power Herb a thing, lol), meaning it needs support to break down it's checks, as well as holding a crippling Rocks weakness. Defog may be a thing, but I still truly believe that no team should ever ignore Rocks and that Rocks on it's own is as viable as before. So, at the end of the day it's a great pokemon that does indeed put some pressure on teambuilding.. but it's checks fits perfectly fine in the metagame and can play many other roles than simply stopping Talon. So I firmly believe it's an A+.

Lol me too, I also run HP Rock on him to counter Charizard Y and Talonflame, helped me a lot ...

HP Rock? Why don't you just run Ancientpower. I've seen that float around.

 

[RufflesPro]

HP Rock? Why don't you just run Ancientpower. I've seen that float around.

Ancient power has low PP (8 after 3 PP ups) and has the same power, not to mention the first couple of HP will confuse the opponent of what HP I have, what I like about HP is that the first 1-2 is almost unpredictable (Unless it's common like HP Fire Roserade)

 

[Jukain]

tbh Stone Edge is better than Ancient Power or HP Rock on Heatran

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 296-352 (99.3 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 208-248 (66.6 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---

So, even with a -Atk nature, Stone Edge still outdamages (as in OHKOes) all of the relevant targets of a Rock-type move, while Ancient Power does not.

When you're running a max SpA Heatran, Ancient Power outdamages -- this is only in reference to specially defensive set, the most common and effective set, as well as the only one that should think about taking on powerful threats. Ancient Power IS better than HP Rock because a) the 10% chance to boost all your stats is awesome and b) Heatran appreciates having a free HP slot for HP Ice (it pretty much needs it to get the necessary coverage). The 8 PP doesn't matter when you're targeting 1 of these Pokemon per game, as even if the opponent has two such targets, they won't switch into Heatran after your Rock-type attack is revealed. You're probably only gonna use Ancient Power once. Maybe one more time if you're up against a Gyarados.

------

e: couldn't find that sylveon got heal bell on the veekun page, so i assumed it didn't. thanks for the correction.

 

[Swamp-Rocket]

Oh, and on the Florges conversation -- Florges boasts increased base Speed (up from 60 to 75), which means it isn't tying min Speed Aegislash (referencing the SD set the ladder seems to love) and that it outruns Bisharp. It also has access to Aromatherapy, making it one of the few available clerics. It's not completely devoid of advantages over Sylveon, and in fact the two gets are pretty good.

These advantages almost mean nothing. Sylveon learns Heal Bell, Bisharp (I'm pretty sure) usually runs max speed so it's not worth catching up to (and you obviously still get OHKOed anyway) and since Aegislash almost never runs any speed Sylveon could just run 4 Speed EVs. Even disregarding that Aegislash uses both as a free pass to Iron Head or Swords Dance since it resists the only attack they will ever use. I see no important advantages here that Florges has.

 

[RotomPoison]

Can we drop Malamar to E, then create E?

Goodra should definitely be A. It defines the role of a "special tank," as even without the Speed or pure power of Hydreigon/Latios but it can certainly take a hit much better then them. With decent HP and defense stats, a great Special Defense, mediocre Speed, and a good Special Attack, as well as an underrated Attack stat that allows a mixed set to be a possibility, it has distinct advantages over other Pokemon.

Hydreigon can go mixed and is stronger then Goodra, but it will never be able to take strong special attacks like Goodra does. While it has access to Taunt and Roost, it doesn't have the pure bulk to take advantage of them. (It also lacks Thunderbolt)

Latios has more Speed and power, but it doesn't have a movepool outside of Draco Meteor, Psyshock, and Surf, which is where Goodra outclasses it.

Here is a list of viable sets Goodra can run:

Reliable Special Tank:

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Dragon Pulse
- Flamethrower
- Muddy Water
- Sludge Bomb

Can wall any special attacker while always doing damage back in some way, usually super effectively.

Offensive Special Tank:

Goodra @ Assault Vest
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 HP / 252 SAtk / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Thunderbolt/Muddy Water
- Sludge Bomb/Dragon Pulse

Gives up general reliability for power

Mixed:

Goodra @ Assault Vest/Life Orb or something
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 200 HP / 56 Atk / 252 SAtk
Quiet Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Earthquake
- Sludge Bomb/Muddy Water/Thunderbolt

Gets past usual checks like Heatran

Choice:

Goodra @ Choice Specs/Choice Scarf
Ability: Sap Sipper
EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 SDef
Modest Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Fire Blast
- Muddy Water/Thunderbolt
- Sludge Bomb/Focus Blast

Latios and Hydreigon wish they had access to moves like Fire Blast and Focus Blast (Latios) or Thunderbolt (both)

Honorable mention: Physically Defensive Assault Vest

 

[RufflesPro]

tbh Stone Edge is better than Ancient Power or HP Rock on Heatran

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 296-352 (99.3 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 208-248 (66.6 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---

So, even with a -Atk nature, Stone Edge still outdamages (as in OHKOes) all of the relevant targets of a Rock-type move, while Ancient Power does not.

When you're running a max SpA Heatran, Ancient Power outdamages -- this is only in reference to specially defensive set, the most common and effective set, as well as the only one that should think about taking on powerful threats. Ancient Power IS better than HP Rock because a) the 10% chance to boost all your stats is awesome and b) Heatran appreciates having a free HP slot for HP Ice (it pretty much needs it to get the necessary coverage). The 8 PP doesn't matter when you're targeting 1 of these Pokemon per game, as even if the opponent has two such targets, they won't switch into Heatran after your Rock-type attack is revealed. You're probably only gonna use Ancient Power once. Maybe one more time if you're up against a Gyarados.

------

Oh, and on the Florges conversation -- Florges boasts increased base Speed (up from 60 to 75), which means it isn't tying min Speed Aegislash (referencing the SD set the ladder seems to love) and that it outruns Bisharp. It also has access to Aromatherapy, making it one of the few available clerics. It's not completely devoid of advantages over Sylveon, and in fact the two gets are pretty good.

Yeah that's true, I do run 252+ on my heatran though.

And btw, Eevee gets Heal Bell through Gen V tutor, so Florges does not outclass sylveon in that category, but that speed is nice, I think you should note that running only a bit spe EVs will let you outrun Mandibuzz, which is quite cool.

 

[DaiGuren]

Manaphy wrecks this washing machine.

+3 252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Rotom-W: 282-332 (92.7 - 109.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And that's assuming the Rotom-W has its Specially Defensive set. Let's see what a T-Bolt does to Manaphy;

4 SpA Rotom-W Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 204-240 (59.8 - 70.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

Manaphy out-speeds and counter attacks with Energy Ball. Sorry Rotom.

Jellicent counters Blaziken's standard HJK/Flare Blitz/SD/Protect set. Sorry Blaziken you're gonna have to come down from ubers. /sarcasm

Point is, you're gonna have to come up with more than damage calcs if you want to prove something and that calc you posted right now is for the most part irrelevant, cause:

a.) why in the heck would rotom-w come in on a +3 manaphy? I believe a relevant calc would be

252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 156-184 (51.3 - 60.5%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Rotom-W Volt Switch vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Manaphy: 158-188 (46.3 - 55.1%) -- 13.3% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

So just by pivoting out(usually to something much faster that can threaten to outspeed and ohko, or to something that can wall), Rotom-W already takes out a good half of Manaphy's hp, eh?

b.) Rotom-W has no business staying against Manaphy as most Rotom-Ws are physically oriented, its only business against it is to pivot out, which is the main point of using Volt Switch.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

tbh Stone Edge is better than Ancient Power or HP Rock on Heatran

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Mega Charizard Y: 292-344 (97.9 - 115.4%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard Y: 196-232 (65.7 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Talonflame: 316-372 (106 - 124.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame: 296-352 (99.3 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

---

0- Atk Heatran Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 340-400 (108.9 - 128.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

VS.

4 SpA Heatran Ancient Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 208-248 (66.6 - 79.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

---

So, even with a -Atk nature, Stone Edge still outdamages (as in OHKOes) all of the relevant targets of a Rock-type move, while Ancient Power does not.

Hm, didn't even consider that option.

Still, I don't really feel that I need it on Heatran. It's kind of niche and kills one option on his moveset, and he already has somewat 4MSS, so eh.

 

[Kawaii Kyouko]

Can we drop Malamar to E, then create E?

Goodra should definitely be A. BLABALBALBALBA

Latios and Hydreigon wish they had access to moves like Fire Blast and Focus Blast (Latios) or Thunderbolt (both)

Don't compare Goodra to Latios or Hydreigon. They play different, with Latios being predominantly a Draco Dropper or a Defogger and Hydreigon being an effective mix mon that breaks both Heatran and the Blobs. Hydreigon got exactly the tools it needs, Draco-FireBlast-Superpower-EarthPower/Earthquake/U-turn, and Latios only really misses a fire type move to handle Ferrothorn. Also, Latios has Tbolt.

Goodra is quite frankly not that good. 110 SpA leaves much to desired (considered how even fucking Mega Absol has higher SpA), 80 speed is pretty much horrible as it has no way to boost it, and the fact that Physical Attackers shit all over it doesn't help. It's abilities are pretty much bad (rain nerf killed Hydration), and without recovery options.. well, it's going to whittle down. Take a look at the other A rank mons and then take a look at Goodra. How does Goodra combat them? I can help by going down the list one by one

Greninja U-turns out on the switch
Excadrill outspeeds and hits with an EQ (and excadrill is also a very competent user of Assault Vest, meaning Fire Blast won't KO.. and without Assault Vest it still can survive
Deoxys-D sets up hazards like a fucking (BAN ME PLEASE)
Gengar is forced out
Keldeo simply Secret Swords the dragon. It has the bulk needed to take a Tbolt, if it does carry that
Azumarill clicks Play Rough
Charizard is forced out unless it runs the Mix set
Mawile clicks Play Rough (Fire blast doesn't KO)
Lando-T clicks EQ as it survives any move.
Ttar laughs
Scizor is outsped and KOd by Fire blast, so it is forced out.
Dragonite goes for a DD T1 and you are kind enough to activate it's Policy. Oops.
Ferro has a chance at surviving a Fire Blast, actually. Still no reason to keep it in.
Kyurem-B laughs
Terrakion laughs
Bisharp Knock Off's, and no more special bulk.
Mamo drops some crashing icicles
Gyarados sets up
Conk absolutely sponges any and all moves
Gliscor can sub up until Muddy water misses, and then it can Toxic it. Other sets needs to switch
Chansey laughs like a mufugga
Mandibuzz laughs and knock offs

So, in other words it comes out well in 3, maybe 4, out of 24.

It fits perfectly well where it is.

 

[Fuzznip]

Can we maybe stop comparing a Pokemon with others in its rank? That means absolutely nothing. A Pokemon is going to be a certain rank depending on how it performs in the entire metagame, not select threats in its proposed ranking. Most Heatran lose to Garchomp, Manaphy, Latias, Latios, Rotom-W, etc, does that mean it shouldn't be A+ rank? No sir.

 

[Liarliarpantsonfire]

Obviously you're screwed if you don't run a check to a threat. If you don't run a Ttar, fairy type, dedicated special sponge or a steel type, you're bound to get fucked over by Latios as an example. I'm not saying that Talonflame isn't a great pokemon, because it truly is, but I don't think it warrants S rank due to the flaws it holds. It relies on recoil moves, meaning it'll get fucked over by itself in the long run (and you may argue that it has a good chance at bringing mons down in the time, but I can also argue that due to me carrying a Hippowdon I can simply slack off the damage). It simply holds no way to get around it's checks either (unless you consider Solarbeam+Power Herb a thing, lol), meaning it needs support to break down it's checks, as well as holding a crippling Rocks weakness. Defog may be a thing, but I still truly believe that no team should ever ignore Rocks and that Rocks on it's own is as viable as before. So, at the end of the day it's a great pokemon that does indeed put some pressure on teambuilding.. but it's checks fits perfectly fine in the metagame and can play many other roles than simply stopping Talon. So I firmly believe it's an A+.

The difference between Talonflame and other OU threats is that Talonflame has few offensive checks. Most balanced teams run priority and a Scarfer nowadays so that they're not completely screwed when their check to a certain threat goes down (in other words, they can revenge kill it if needed). With Talonflame this becomes substantially more difficult, if not impossible. It's faster than most other priority users, generally only losing to E-speed and other Talonflame. Scarfers/priority users that can take a boosted Brave Bird are few and far between. Even if they manage, they either can't switch in and/or take huge damage in the process. On that note, I think it's safe to say that Talonflame is unrivaled as a revenge killer thanks to Brave Bird and Gale Wings, furthering the argument to give it a ranking at the top, thus S ranking.

Stealth Rock really isn't an argument to keep a pokemon in a lower rank than it should be. You can argue that they will be up, and I can argue that they won't be. In the end, Stealth Rock isn't up by default, and it can be removed by either Defog or Rapid Spin. Somebody else explained this regarding Charizard-Y a few pages back too I believe.

Lastly, recoil damage is not the best argument to keep it in a lower rank. It has enough health to burn through to get two or three kills with ease, barring someone sacrificing their Chansey or Blissey to it. It also has U-turn to weaken its checks and maintain momentum, which is really a huge factor in dealing with Talonflame as your check can often be put in 2HKO range just from U-turn and repeated hazard damage really quickly.

If people can bring more better arguments to the table to keep Talonflame in A+ then go ahead.

 

[alphatron]

Can we also stop placing Pokemon into worst case scenarios? That Manaphy vs. rotom calc isn't relevant either because Rotom-W most likely isn't going to get any chance to volt switch out. It switches in on energy ball and then runs a high risk of getting 2hko'd with SR on the field. Manaphy isn't going to switch into a healthy rotom and attempt to take it out. More often than not, rotom-W is going to face off against a +3 Manaphy or switch into an energy ball.

The same applies to Goodra too. If it's supposed to be used as a special offensive tank, then most of those situations just aren't going to happen. I'm not using fire blast against mamoswine. I'm being forced out by it.

 

[DaiGuren]

Can we also stop placing Pokemon into worst case scenarios? That Manaphy vs. rotom calc isn't relevant either because Rotom-W most likely isn't going to get any chance to volt switch out. It switches in on energy ball and then runs a high risk of getting 2hko'd with SR on the field. Manaphy isn't going to switch into a healthy rotom and attempt to take it out. More often than not, rotom-W is going to face off against a +3 Manaphy or switch into an energy ball.

The same applies to Goodra too. If it's supposed to be used as a special offensive tank, then most of those situations just aren't going to happen. I'm not using fire blast against mamoswine. I'm being forced out by it.

Why the heck would you switch in a rotom-w on a +3 manaphy anyway? Only reason I would switch in rotom-w to a manaphy is to revenge an unboosted manaphy. If you somehow made a mistake of giving your opponent's Manaphy a free turn to Tail Glow, you're not gonna bring in rotom-w unless you confirmed that manaphy aint running Energy Ball.

That's like saying Heatran is irrelevant because if it comes in on a +1/2 ZardX then it is demolished with a SE coverage move. Specially defensive Heatran doesn't have any business coming against a boosted ZardX, just as much as a physicall defensive Rotom-w has no business coming in on a boosted Manaphy.

 

[Punchshroom]

Can we maybe stop comparing a Pokemon with others in its rank? That means absolutely nothing. A Pokemon is going to be a certain rank depending on how it performs in the entire metagame, not select threats in its proposed ranking. Most Heatran lose to Garchomp, Manaphy, Latias, Latios, Rotom-W, etc, does that mean it shouldn't be A+ rank? No sir.

That's true, but on a vaguely related note: the idea that Florges and Sylveon are in the same rank still baffles me. Florges has, I'd go as far as to say literally nothing over Sylveon. Any favorable matchups Florges has, Sylveon fares just as well. Sylveon not only has greater overall bulk and passes larger Wishes, but has a not too shabby offensive movepool that can keep stuff like Aegislash and Mega-Venusaur at bay. To top it off, Sylveon possesses a far stronger STAB alternative that pierces through Substitutes. You tell me whether these two aren't comparable in rank to justify that the clearly inferior one drop in rank or out of the rankings altogether.

Also, Fuzznip is right in that we shouldn't judge a Pokemon purely based on its matchups against threats of other rankings (though it is a good place to start I guess), since ex: Goodra beats Heatran, Thundurus and Rotom-W, but loses to Garchomp, Chansey and Azumarill; you can't select a placing for Goodra just like that.

 

[Monte Cristo]

but has a not too shabby offensive movepool that can keep stuff like Aegislash and Mega-Venusaur at bay

no
4 SpA Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 6.1% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Sylveon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 90-108 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 90-106 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 70.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Punchshroom]

no
4 SpA Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 106-126 (29.1 - 34.6%) -- 6.1% chance to 3HKO
4 SpA Sylveon Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Venusaur: 90-108 (24.7 - 29.6%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 138-164 (35 - 41.6%) -- 77.9% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 186-218 (47.2 - 55.3%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 SpA Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 90-106 (27.7 - 32.7%) -- 70.8% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 165-196 (41.8 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Sylveon: 125-148 (31.7 - 37.5%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Actually, yes.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 214-254 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 186-218 (56 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sylveon doesn't even get Psychic lol.

Now compare this with Florges, who does at least have Psychic but has nothing for Aegislash, instead having useless Grass coverage to go with it. Florges doesn't even get enough worthwhile moves to fill its moveslots, though the higher Speed probably helps, since 252 Speed Sylveon only speedties 44 Spe Rotom-W, but Sylveon is a considerably greater threat to anything slower / defensive, while Florges is much too slow to catch up with offensive threats (déjà vu MegaVoir).

 

[Monte Cristo]

Actually, yes.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 180-212 (55.5 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 214-254 (58.7 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Sylveon Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Venusaur: 160-190 (43.9 - 52.1%) -- 17.6% chance to 2HKO

4 SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 186-218 (56 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Aegislash-Blade Shadow Ball vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Sylveon: 127-151 (38.2 - 45.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Sylveon doesn't even get Psychic lol.

Now compare this with Florges, who does at least have Psychic but has nothing for Aegislash, instead having useless Grass coverage to go with it. Florges doesn't even get enough worthwhile moves to fill its moveslots.

specs sylveon is legitimately inferior to gardevoir in every way dude, it's a pretty gimmicky PoS, not that I don't agree that florges is inferior(I do agree) but come the fuck on

 

[Punchshroom]

specs sylveon is legitimately inferior to gardevoir in every way dude, it's a pretty gimmicky PoS, not that I don't agree that florges is inferior(I do agree) but come the fuck on

Yeah I know, MegaVoir is faster, stronger (its inability to wield Specs actually makes it weaker), has better coverage, and can switch moves, but since one basically uses MegaVoir for the super powerful Fairy attack (Alakazam / MegaZam are better Psychic sweepers), Specs Sylveon is an option for those who don't want to give up the Mega-slot.

Not saying that Specs Sylveon is completely inferior to MegaVoir though, especially against more offensive teams...

Oh, and the thing about Sylveon performing an offensive role? Yeah, it gives MegaVoir a run for its money as well since Pixilated Hyper Voice is not even the latter's niche anymore (though it does do Calm Mind better). MegaVoir is fast, but not fast enough to outspeed the prominent offensive threats, leaving its better matchups to more defensive Pokemon. Sylveon's Speed is terrible but is still enough to outspeed plenty of defensive Pokemon with investment (up to ~Rotom-W), while sporting enough bulk on both ends of the spectrum to take a hit or two from faster Pokemon and smash them with Specs Pixiliated Hyper Voice.

I don't like sifting through previous posts.

 

[Fuzznip]

specs sylveon is legitimately inferior to gardevoir in every way dude, it's a pretty gimmicky PoS, not that I don't agree that florges is inferior(I do agree) but come the fuck on

Wait, how?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 280-330 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 249-294 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 146-172 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 129-153 (45.5 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO

Sylveon is bulkier than Gardevoir too. 95 HP / 65 Def / 130 SpD vs 68 HP / 65 Def / 115 SpD

Specs Sylveon is pretty good, I've used it a lot. Obviously it's weaker than Mega Gardevoir when it comes to sweeping, but you're not passing up a mega slot for something that actually hits less hard than Specs Sylveon (which is a sweet hole puncher).

 

[Monte Cristo]

Wait, how?

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 280-330 (84.3 - 99.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 249-294 (75 - 88.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ SpA Choice Specs Pixilate Sylveon Hyper Voice vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 146-172 (51.5 - 60.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ SpA Choice Specs Gardevoir Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect: 129-153 (45.5 - 54%) -- 44.1% chance to 2HKO

Sylveon is bulkier than Gardevoir too. 95 HP / 65 Def / 130 SpD vs 68 HP / 65 Def / 115 SpD

Specs Sylveon is pretty good, I've used it a lot. Obviously it's weaker than Mega Gardevoir when it comes to sweeping, but you're not passing up a mega slot for something that actually hits less hard than Specs Sylveon (which is a sweet hole puncher).

I meant megaVoir since it does has psychic STA, way better coverage and ability to switch up moves