This is why I think stealth rock is uncompetitive. Not because it is a common sight. Not because it is easy to setup. It just the fact it's very effects discriminates all typings that are weak to rock. Think about it. OU it is typically stuff that can come in on it all day and types that aren't stealth rock weak take up an overwhelming majority of the roster. Now when we compare that to the stuff that is stealth rock weak there are three things that pop up that cause an alarm.
That has nothing to do with the discussion.
Is it really not ok to have versatility in OU just to keep stealth Rock around? The fact that there are that many pokemon that possibly have a shot at OU but cant simply because Stealth Rock limits them speaks loudly as to the unhealthy nature of Stealth Rock.
Volt-turn teams got surely a real boost without SR, Rotom-W and Landorus are the perfect example to this. Also Scizor (but it suffers Spikes). Spikes setters are less than SR setters and they have to set up for more turns to get a considerely damage as Entry Hazards. Also there will be more pressure on Spikes setters; if you wanna support the ban of SR you can't support your arguments with Volturn Teams, simply.
The ENTIRE GAME discriminates rock-weak stuff. Bug, fire, ice and flying are horrible typings by nature, weak to a bunch of common and powerful types. Thats why theyre mostly sitting in low tiers. By your logic then we should ban everything that plagues them so they all could be useful. But the fact is this is irrelevant. Some types are better than others, you just have to deal with it. Banning stealth rock wont make hail less of a niche because hail IS NOT used as a regular weather. The entire purpose of hail is preventing other weathers from being used. Bar Kyurem ALL hail abusers are utter crap in ou making it unreliable to be used like you do with other weathers. Sun is plagued by having the worst weather starter available and the worst matchup with other weathers around. Banning rocks wont change that. Also seriously articuno, torkoal, mandibuzz walling? Walling what? Can you explain this further cause i dont see absolutely any use for them in ou. And moltres is a ridiculous niche subroost pressure abuser under rain. Thats the only thing it can do that inst completely outclassed by volcarona. Thats how the type chart was made, some types are bad, other types are good. Nothing will ever change that, with or without stealth rocks.
I talked about this a few posts ago. We have nearly 5 months until X and Y are released, and, considering we don't know what the metagame will be like, we have no reason not to suspect SR, regardless of how much time is left. There's also no reason to talk about lower tiers. We're discussing SR and its presence in OU and nothing else. If other tiers find SR problematic, they can have their own suspect tests. Just to humor you though, let's assume that by banning SR in OU, we ban it in every other tier besides Ubers as well. That's still ok. As much as some people may think that's a terrible attitude to take, the OU metagame takes precedence over the other tiers.
Theres no reason to suspect SR in first place. This is just one of the many controversial topics about the metagame and definitely the least important. Theres also no reason not to suspect rocks in lower tiers. The arguments for its suspect can be applied in every single tier.
Well yeah, then when XY will be released nobody cares about BW --old metagame!!--
after that, think about Thundurus-T, Zapdos, Victini, Salamence, Tornadus, Darmanitan, Aerodactyl, Moltres, Kyurem and all these pokèmon without SR and think about how a good defensive team can counter/check all these threats (and others in OU like Scizor, Keldeo, Terrakion, Tyranitar, Latwins, Breloom, Reuniclus etc etc)?
I love all of the reasons you've given for your stance. You're opinions are clearly indisputable facts that have no need of support. Beautiful.
You're not even talking about whether or not SR is potentially overpowered, which is the topic of the discussion, and are leaping to conclusions about what you think the metagame will look like.
I didnt gave an opinion. I just stated theres no reason to suspect rocks in the same way you said ''considering we don't know what the metagame will be like, we have no reason not to suspect SR, regardless of how much time is left.''. Dont act like a hypocrite when you know everyone is saying basically the same thing. ''Lets suspect sr because we dont know if its broken''. ''Lets not suspect sr because we dont know if its broken''. But at the end it simply doenst matter because we wont have time to contain the metagame after a possibly ban. Thats why it shouldnt be suspected. Now this is my opinion.
I was referencing another post where I had given my thoughts. I didn't simply posit an idea without supporting it.
What? You quoted my post and commented right below it.
Plz allow me to answer that question. Stealth Rock is not broken. I know you think I think Stealth Rock is broken but I don't think it's broken. It's unhealthy. It's so very well implemented into the games that nobody has noticed what it does. It severely limits pokemon who would otherwise be OU. It's done this in DPpt as well. We just didn't talk about it at that point.
It seems pretty obvious that SR helps offensive teams to achieve many OHKO/2HKO punishing switches etc etc
Well, I'm just considering that sun summoner is weak to SR and sun is not eternal, you have to switch a lot of times your weather summoner if another weather summoned is took on the field. And also SR does 12% at every switch of chlorophylle sweepers and that's something. Not consider only sun sweeper but also who makes chloro sweeping possible, that is Ninetales (in the 90% of times).
I am not denying that some types are not as good as others nor am I saying that that anything giving rock weak mons a hard time should be banned. I am saying that stealth rocks makes the list of these said types that can function in ou so few and sets such a high bar required for said types to even be considered usable in ou. Why should Rock weak types that can function in ou be far and few because we want one more hazard.
We dont ''want'' another hazard. Its just there and just happens to be bad for rock weak mons. With or without hazards they still have their problems so its a moot point. And yes ninetales is the worst weather inducer. Its completely inferior to the other weathers starters and is a useless pokemon overall. And no, rocks DO NOT make hail what it is. The lack of good abusers and more effects is what makes hail a niche anti-meta weather. Stop ignoring the type chart beyond rock. Articuno has 3 resistances/immunities one of which (bug) is completely uselesss because scizor and volcarona already have other stabs to hit you super effectively. It also has 3 crippling weakness and is neutral to everything else. Theres no reason to use it over kyurem as a sub roost user. Mandibuzz is in the same boat. Most of its resistances are useless and has 3 crippling weakness. Theres no reason to use it over something like celebi which resists water and fighting moves or jirachi which resists rock and dragon. And torkoal as a sun spinner? Dude sun wants everything EXCEPT a spinner that is WEAK to the same moves that its weather inducer is. Donphan is always the superior choice due to resisting rock moves and countering common problems for sun such as ttar and terrakion. As you can see these supposedly viable pokemon are actually outclassed by other mons that are already ou to begin with.
The fact that rocks hurt these pokemon viability doesnt make it suspect worthy. They arent making the game unplayable or uncompetitive. They are indeed a huge problem for those rock weak mons but that is just how it is. Banning stealth rocks would improve their viability at the same time that it reduces the viability of fast frail sweepers and hurts the potential of HO teams by preventing attackers from breaking through their checks and counters. Cant you see that a stealth rock-less game is just a different game with different threats and different unviable or outclassed pokemon? Stop talking about improving viability, diversity or w/e else you want. We will never have a completely balanced metagame, there will always be dominating threats, checks/counters for these threats, supporters for these threats and outclassed shit that do well in lower tiers with their own set of threats.
No, my reason is perfectly fine. I dont want to waste time suspecting something just for the sake of increasing the viability of low tier pokemons. If theyre more viable without stealth rocks is irrelevant, thats not the point of a suspect. Rocks dont prevent them from being used, they force you to have the right support for it like rapid spin/magic bounce in the same way that using weather teams require support to counter opposing weathers and making your weather starter survive, in the same way that using any two pokemon with similar weakness will require a third one that covers that etc. The fact is its easy to pick on stealth rocks because its a single move. Its easy to blame the low tier status of crap like arcticuno or niche stuff like moltres on a single move. Its easy to say that rocks are restricting teambuilding now when it has always been like that. You need to have counters/checks to top threats, you need to have a way around common strategies, you need to provide the right support for your pokemon. Its also easy to call others ''without reasoning'' without providing any real arguments for your point other than ''why not''.
