ElectivireRocks
Banned deucer.
Just because something doesn't end up banned it doesnt mean that a suspect test was "a waste of time". Just saying.
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Would we want a Stealth Rock suspect test? [Read #196]
- Thread starter Kidogo
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It is a waste of time. Suspect test take up a lot of people's time. Also I'm sure the people with the tiering badge have some requirements to keep that badge active. Why waste people's time on an issue that has no chance to get anywhere? An alternate tier/ladder should be good enough....then everyone can see how bad it would be.
Curtains, I've had absolutely enough of you. You've been spamming both entry hazard threads with nothing but relentless iterations of your opinion (which basically consists of ridicule and negativity), with no kind of reasoning to back them up. Some time is being used in a suspect test. For it to be wasted, there'd have to be both no SR ban and no learning about what a SR-less metagame would be like. This obviously wouldn't be the case. Thus, a suspect test isn't a waste of time. Whether it's a good use of time is more contentious, but the weight of opinion in this poll and thread suggests that the community thinks, on the whole, that it is.
Just a point: Even if Gen6 comes around and we're still testing on that, so be it. It won't go away simply because X and Y come out. All we'd need to do is continue testing, and then polish everything off. It's not as if EVERYONE is going to stop playing right away.
In my opinion in the lower tier such as NU. Pokes such as Charizard or Quiver dance Butterfree will rise in usage or even better go to RU or upper if SR gets ban hammered.
Just to note that I have another opinion on Volcarona may be broken in OU unless there is good proper counters specially on sun teams. I don't know about dragonite but it could be a uber candidate if it over centralises the metagame. Its still 4th in OU usage right now even with SR present due to multiscale.
Just to note that I have another opinion on Volcarona may be broken in OU unless there is good proper counters specially on sun teams. I don't know about dragonite but it could be a uber candidate if it over centralises the metagame. Its still 4th in OU usage right now even with SR present due to multiscale.
Nah, it's not even that. If I remember correctly, Aldaron had mentioned someplace (concerning Rain) that running out of time isn't an issue if suspect testing needs to be done. My problem is that banning SR isn't what will possibly advance the metagame, it'll be all the further banning that needs to be done afterwards. If we are going to flip up the metagame and go on possible banning sprees I'd much rather take the weather route than waste time on the irrelevant Stealth Rock.
I already explained more things in older posts in this thread, so please read entire discussion before judge. Actually my logic told exactly the opposite as you said. Without SR Volcarona (and other threats like Dragonite, etcetc) will be even more dangerous as they are atm and that's surely not good. Thinking about future ban for these threats is simply fool (as this ban-ban-ban-ban method is), you can't do all these things in 4 months (yeah, after that the 90% of Smogon won't care about BW2 and there aren't faults in this).
You should understand that those bad typings (except for Flying) will be as bad as they are in this moment also with a SR ban. Reasons? Bad typing, weakness to priority, bad stats for almost all of them (except Dragonite and Volcarona).
This thread started with a foolish intention, thinking just to few reasons to suspect SR and without a single reason to not suspect them, a little selfish thought. And I repeat, I don't care about all those "UU-that-would-be-OU-without-SR" simply because a) they are fu*king WEAK b) I don't wanna enlarge the threat list that is already big (and this is one of the reasons that makes BW2 a worse metagame than olders, decreasing it of competitiveness) c) SR is not as dangerous as many other things are at the moment d) I won't drastically change a dead-metagame walking
Many other people replied to this quote and they are right, take a look
ps. At Genesect/Tornadus-T time the metagame was in the middle of his "life", so a suspect-then ban method wasn't so bad, but reasons for their ban are actually really different than this.
Applying your logic you should have banned SR also in DPP, can you tell me why they aren't so broken in DPP than in BW2? The mechanics of this move is not changed, and in DPP there are so many spinblockers than in BW2 (and Rapid Spin was a waste of turn as now, giving chances to statup or switching and something else.). The only difference between DPP and BW2 (further than Drizzle and Drought) is the number of threats, but this is a point in favor to SR.
I don't know why you consider SR to be irrelevant compared to weather, Melee? I've seen you bring that up quite a few times but I don't understand the justification, unless you consider auto-weather to be broken full stop. However, the main problem with weather as I see it in this meta is that Rain has no issues with SR (SubToxic Tenta says hello), while Hail and Sun (it's two natural counters) do. If those two take a jump up in usage thanks to a SR ban, the balance of weathers in the meta correspondingly improves. If Rain and Sun are still found to be broken or overly centralising even after this, they can be banned, but saying that a possible SR ban will have no bearing on what happens with weather is just wrong.
And Prague, with respect I think most of what you said is flat wrong as well. Volcarona and Dragonite are held up as probable Uber-candidates without SR to check them. Okay. But iirc 18 currently non-OU Pokemon will become OU-viable with a SR ban. Ice and Fire are fantastic offensive typings, Bug gets STAB U-turn. Saying that these typings won't be improved by a SR ban is just ludicrous. You admit yourself that you "don't want to enlarge the threat list". This is exactly what we want to do - increase diversity. Not just in Pokemon used, but in playstyle, since it's generally acknowledged that defensive playstyles are hurt worse by SR.
And Prague, with respect I think most of what you said is flat wrong as well. Volcarona and Dragonite are held up as probable Uber-candidates without SR to check them. Okay. But iirc 18 currently non-OU Pokemon will become OU-viable with a SR ban. Ice and Fire are fantastic offensive typings, Bug gets STAB U-turn. Saying that these typings won't be improved by a SR ban is just ludicrous. You admit yourself that you "don't want to enlarge the threat list". This is exactly what we want to do - increase diversity. Not just in Pokemon used, but in playstyle, since it's generally acknowledged that defensive playstyles are hurt worse by SR.
George Eliot many other people said that banning SR will help the metagame against Offensive Playstyle. Do you realized this won't help to achieve this point? Do you really think that an Hyper-Offensive metagame is better than actual?
In these times it's really hard to play a stall team that can manage all these threats, adding more will simply complicate even more this fact.
Yes, defensive playstyles are helped as a side with SR ban, but they will get many troubles as another side with its ban. Think about it.
This logical can be applied also to offensive playstyles (try to manage Volcarona, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, focus sash stinkies, Ninjask bpasser, Venomoth QuiverPass and over)
and diversity =/= competitiveness if you wanna play as much pokemon as possible maybe OU is not the right metagame for you.
In these times it's really hard to play a stall team that can manage all these threats, adding more will simply complicate even more this fact.
Yes, defensive playstyles are helped as a side with SR ban, but they will get many troubles as another side with its ban. Think about it.
This logical can be applied also to offensive playstyles (try to manage Volcarona, Dragonite, Kyurem-B, focus sash stinkies, Ninjask bpasser, Venomoth QuiverPass and over)
and diversity =/= competitiveness if you wanna play as much pokemon as possible maybe OU is not the right metagame for you.
With Stealth Rock banning, Dragonite would become broken, no doubt. Dragonite with constant multiscale would center the meta too much and end up in ubers. Volcarona would be less of a threat if you ask me, because of its exploitable weakness to common things such as CS Landorus-T and Terrakion.
However, that's the only two pokemon in OU that really become "broken" from a SR ban. Other pokemon can come down from NU, RU, and UU and become very viable OU threats. Venomoth, Moltres, Articuno, ect...
With BW2 in it's closing months, this ban could help shape the X and Y metagame, because let's face it: A meta without rocks will be a lot more skill based.
Pro SR ban.
However, that's the only two pokemon in OU that really become "broken" from a SR ban. Other pokemon can come down from NU, RU, and UU and become very viable OU threats. Venomoth, Moltres, Articuno, ect...
With BW2 in it's closing months, this ban could help shape the X and Y metagame, because let's face it: A meta without rocks will be a lot more skill based.
Pro SR ban.
How is SR irrelevant when the entire metagame revolves around it? Over 90% of OU teams use it, it's considered standard battle conditions. Sun is used noticeably less than Rain and Sand, and Hail is non-existent. It's the sole reason why using more than 1 pokemon that's weak to it without a spinner is rarely to never seen. Kyurem-B is sitting here in OU, why Dragonite and Volcarona hasn't been suspected yet, and a handful of pokemon great typing and stats, and movepools aren't ever seen in OU.
Here is why banning SR is a bigger "no" than even banning weather right now:
OU's bans influence all the tier below it. Yes, OU is Smogon's primary metagame, but we are so close to X/Y that this is just not a ban that can even be considered. If we started the suspect process now, we would have 2 & a half to 3 months maximum to scramble to balance things before X/Y eats the VAST majority of our player base. As some of you have been saying, yes, BW2 OU will have a shelf life after X/Y comes out but UU and below will likely not see the light of day outside of the Smogon Tour so there is almost no way that any tier other than OU can re-balance itself after a ban like that this close to a new game.
And, again, OU is Smogon's main focus but are we willing to close the book on BW2 with FOUR unbalanced tiers? Five counting Little Cup?
It's just absolutely not worth throwing away 3 years of work in 5 different metagames just to maybe, just maybe balance the only one that isn't already balanced. I like to think we, OU players, are not that pompous of a community to even want to try that.
We really need to own-up as a community and say "We screwed up, there's nothing we can do at this point that doesn't either screw-over everyone that didn't screw up (SR) or completely erase everything we've done for the past 3 years (Weather), but we'll learn from it for X/Y's sake and, if not nip that shit early, at least monitor it like a hawk."
OU's bans influence all the tier below it. Yes, OU is Smogon's primary metagame, but we are so close to X/Y that this is just not a ban that can even be considered. If we started the suspect process now, we would have 2 & a half to 3 months maximum to scramble to balance things before X/Y eats the VAST majority of our player base. As some of you have been saying, yes, BW2 OU will have a shelf life after X/Y comes out but UU and below will likely not see the light of day outside of the Smogon Tour so there is almost no way that any tier other than OU can re-balance itself after a ban like that this close to a new game.
And, again, OU is Smogon's main focus but are we willing to close the book on BW2 with FOUR unbalanced tiers? Five counting Little Cup?
It's just absolutely not worth throwing away 3 years of work in 5 different metagames just to maybe, just maybe balance the only one that isn't already balanced. I like to think we, OU players, are not that pompous of a community to even want to try that.
We really need to own-up as a community and say "We screwed up, there's nothing we can do at this point that doesn't either screw-over everyone that didn't screw up (SR) or completely erase everything we've done for the past 3 years (Weather), but we'll learn from it for X/Y's sake and, if not nip that shit early, at least monitor it like a hawk."
Is it possible to ban SR in OU (if it is ban-worthy) and leave it legal in other tiers? Either way the removal of SR will likely cause Volcarona usage to skyrocket to Politoed levels, and it would likely be suspected.
Banning Stealth Rock doesn't even have to happen across the board. Unless other tiers decide that SR is worthy of a suspect test, I don't see why we can't restrict the ban to OU, since it seems that OU is the only place where this discussion is happening. I think to suggest that "we should leave it like it is so we don't throw away 3 years of work" and should leave something suspect-worthy untested is absurd. Things are suspected because they are potentially overpowered, and there's no precedence that suggests we shouldn't suspect something because of the amount of time until the next generation arrives. In 4th gen, Salamence was suspected at the end of May 2011, which was only 4 months before Black/White were released in Japan. I'm sure people might bring up that the impact banning Stealth Rock might have would very possibly be more significant than Salamence's ban, but we have no way of knowing that, and using theorymon about what will happen to the metagame as a justification for not testing SR is in poor taste.
What? I don't understand how you could possibly argue that banning SR, an important move that sees use across four different metagames would even be comparable to banning Salamence, a ban some people did not agree with in the first place. Sure we have no way of knowing for sure what will happen, but I don't need theorymon to know that banning SR will have a far greater impact than banning one Pokemon.
blitzlefan
shake it off!
This I have some issues with. Not everyone agrees that Stealth Rock is ban-worthy either. The most popular opinion as determined by the polls is "SR should not be suspected and is most likely not broken". The second most popular opinion is "Could be useful, even though SR might not broken", which recognizes that Stealth Rock might not be broken, but simply wants the suspect test for the information it might give us and the possibilities for a better metagame. A lot more people are fine with Stealth Rock than you may think, but it's just that they're just less vocal about it in this thread; besides, it's the pro-ban faction that needs to convince the community that a suspect test is needed, not the anti-ban faction.
You "know" that based on theorymon. Since there has never been a suspect test, or even a ladder, for a meta without SR, there is nothing but theorymon you can rely on to reach the conclusion that its impact would be greater than banning X pokemon. I'm not suggesting that banning SR will have a comparable impact on the metagame, but using theorymon as a reason not to test something has never been done and is counterproductive to what we try to achieve in the tiering process (getting rid of broken things in order to approach a more balanced, competitive metagame).
I am against the ban, and I agree with you. In retrospect that comment on Salamence's ban had nothing to do with what I was arguing. Point being that we can talk smack about theorymon all we want, but ultimately a ban like SR will undoubtedly have such an impact, for reasons Katakiri stated above and I in a previous post, that I don't see how you can compare this ban to one like Salamence. That's all.
Eh, fair enough. This is why I suggested a ladder without SR, I'm not at all opposed to experimenting but am opposed to even the possibility of banning it. IMO it's simply too big a fish to fry at this point.
This reminded me of Aldaron's topic from a while ago. Maybe that should get a bit more attention.
I remember when Garchomp was banned waaaay back when. I don't know if that was the first ban (not like I paid too much attention), but that was when I understood what a suspect test was about. I never played BW1 because of school, but I find it really interesting to come back now and see the same arguments happening that were happening before.
So many of them make no sense. "Banning SR would make Dragonite/Volcarona/Yan-freaking-mega broken." So what? If it is broken, it needs to go, and if Stealth Rock is broken, it needs to go. End of story. The fallout doesn't matter. When Garchomp was banned in DPP (might have even been DP?) it made Salamence threat #1 overnight. Salamence usage went through the roof as people stopped dedicating moveslots to ice moves, but then had to again because of Mence. This was the prime era of wallbreaker Mence, and it wasn't long before people started talking about suspecting Salamence. Then BP Scizor showed up and it was all good. But the point is that we ban things because they are broken and we accept the consequences of that ban. If that means another ban, so be it.
How about the argument that it would take too much time? I don't know about you, but I think pokemon will continue to be played for a long, long time and we can afford to spend some time working out some kinks for competitive balance. I understand another game is coming out, but wouldn't we like to make the metagame right before moving on? It might not be long enough to figure out the consequences of a ban before people start leaving for the newer pokemon and metagame, but if it helps competitive balance then we've done a good thing.
So here's the real question I haven't seen answered: IS STEALTH ROCK BROKEN? I think the answer is no. But, hey, that's just me and my stall teams. Eliminating pokemon like Yanmega from OU does not mean broken. Broken means that a large portion of your team has to be built around handling it, just like Garchomp used to be. You used to have to have 2 Garchomp checks (because you can't counter Sand Veil) on your team at a minimum. Do you have 2 anti-SR pokemon on your team? Espeon and a spinner? It's a very, very good move, but we dedicate at most 1 pokemon to stopping it. It's a spinner or a bouncer. At most 1. Not 2 like we needed for Garchomp. Or (from what people tell me) almost guaranteeing the loss of a pokemon to figure out which of 10 sets their Genesect is running. In fact, sometimes we don't have any! We just don't care and let them waste a move while we crush them with the strength of a thousand sandwiches (something like that). We don't need more than one because it's not that big of a threat. I think it's really straightforwardly not broken, and therefore does not warrant a suspect test.
But maybe you carry 2 spinners...
So many of them make no sense. "Banning SR would make Dragonite/Volcarona/Yan-freaking-mega broken." So what? If it is broken, it needs to go, and if Stealth Rock is broken, it needs to go. End of story. The fallout doesn't matter. When Garchomp was banned in DPP (might have even been DP?) it made Salamence threat #1 overnight. Salamence usage went through the roof as people stopped dedicating moveslots to ice moves, but then had to again because of Mence. This was the prime era of wallbreaker Mence, and it wasn't long before people started talking about suspecting Salamence. Then BP Scizor showed up and it was all good. But the point is that we ban things because they are broken and we accept the consequences of that ban. If that means another ban, so be it.
How about the argument that it would take too much time? I don't know about you, but I think pokemon will continue to be played for a long, long time and we can afford to spend some time working out some kinks for competitive balance. I understand another game is coming out, but wouldn't we like to make the metagame right before moving on? It might not be long enough to figure out the consequences of a ban before people start leaving for the newer pokemon and metagame, but if it helps competitive balance then we've done a good thing.
So here's the real question I haven't seen answered: IS STEALTH ROCK BROKEN? I think the answer is no. But, hey, that's just me and my stall teams. Eliminating pokemon like Yanmega from OU does not mean broken. Broken means that a large portion of your team has to be built around handling it, just like Garchomp used to be. You used to have to have 2 Garchomp checks (because you can't counter Sand Veil) on your team at a minimum. Do you have 2 anti-SR pokemon on your team? Espeon and a spinner? It's a very, very good move, but we dedicate at most 1 pokemon to stopping it. It's a spinner or a bouncer. At most 1. Not 2 like we needed for Garchomp. Or (from what people tell me) almost guaranteeing the loss of a pokemon to figure out which of 10 sets their Genesect is running. In fact, sometimes we don't have any! We just don't care and let them waste a move while we crush them with the strength of a thousand sandwiches (something like that). We don't need more than one because it's not that big of a threat. I think it's really straightforwardly not broken, and therefore does not warrant a suspect test.
But maybe you carry 2 spinners...
@eastamazonantidote
If you say handling it, you say Espeon/Spinner but
Garchomp and others are also a bit about handling it, if ground would be weak to rock, would it still used as much, Pokemon handle it too by resisting it, and it makes complete mons unviable because of not handling it
If you say handling it, you say Espeon/Spinner but
Garchomp and others are also a bit about handling it, if ground would be weak to rock, would it still used as much, Pokemon handle it too by resisting it, and it makes complete mons unviable because of not handling it
a metagame does indeed continue to evolve despite it no longer being the main focus of this site. as i've watched adv in particular, i've noticed that many pokemon have changed tier, have had updated analyses and movesets, etc. while this doesn't mean people will stick with bw2 like they do advanced [i know i probably wouldn't, adv is more fun imo], it doesn't mean that the entire fanbase will drop like flies. it's okay to pass into the next gen and continue to have an older, evolving metagame.
EDIT and what if the metagame does turn out to be more fun sans rocks? i've heard from several adv players that sr is the main reason they don't play newer gens. if it does, you'll get more people still playing bw2. while i'm not saying it's gonna happen, it's possible - and in the end, everyone here is playing for fun.
EDIT and what if the metagame does turn out to be more fun sans rocks? i've heard from several adv players that sr is the main reason they don't play newer gens. if it does, you'll get more people still playing bw2. while i'm not saying it's gonna happen, it's possible - and in the end, everyone here is playing for fun.
I voted no for a few reasons that probably have been addressed and argued in this thread already, but I am going to speak my mind. First off, Stealth Rock punishes one of the most powerful tools in the game, switching, and with exception to Pokemon that resist it, it effects almost all Pokemon universally. Switching is even more dangerous in BW than in the past thanks to the infamous volt-turn combo, not to mention anything else that can use those moves. Perhaps this is a bit of a jump, but without Stlealth Rock, they would run amuk, even more so then then did back in the end of BW1.
Outside of that, I just think its a move mechanic that is part of the game, I have a hard time agreeing with move bans unless they are justified for bigger reasons like being un-competitive or just flat out beyond annoying, Stealth Rock is neither.
Also, I couldn't care about Moltres and Yanmega at all, if a Pokemon is good enough, it would overcome it's problems like Volcarona has shown. These Pokemon don't deserve to be in the metagame any more than any other Pokemon.
Outside of that, I just think its a move mechanic that is part of the game, I have a hard time agreeing with move bans unless they are justified for bigger reasons like being un-competitive or just flat out beyond annoying, Stealth Rock is neither.
Also, I couldn't care about Moltres and Yanmega at all, if a Pokemon is good enough, it would overcome it's problems like Volcarona has shown. These Pokemon don't deserve to be in the metagame any more than any other Pokemon.
I am not playing for fun, this line of reasoning is moot. :P
Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock doesn't mean these pokemon are weak or don't deserve to be OU. They have all the chances in the world of being OU if it weren't for stealth rock. Volcarona overcoming Stealth Rock only proves that Volcarona is borderline broken and it would most definitely be suspect if stealth rock weren't around.
Stealth Rock isn't uncompetitive as you say but there are plenty of people that would disagree with you that Stealth Rock isn't annoying. Also, Stealth Rock is so intergrated into the metagame that it may just be unhealthy for the metagame. You probably didn't see my post where I said that 18 different pokemon have a chance at being ou if Stealth Rock weren't in OU so I'll just reiterate myself now. 18 different pokemon have a chance at being OU without Stealth Rock. Compare that to the 3 or so pokemon that would be suspect if stealth rock were banned.
Finally even if Stealth Rock were to leave, Spikes and Toxic Spikes are still around to put a limit on Volt-turn teams. That said I can see this argument's validity considering Rotom-W and Landorus can easily get over that.
I feel Stealth Rock isn't too much of a problem. Even though it is on practically every team, it can still be played around with all the resists floating around OU.
Is it really important having 18 other pokèmon -with their flaws- in OU (this means they won't be playable in UU-&lower) ? I don't feel the need of them, really.
Please explain me 3 good reason to have these 18 pokèmon in OU, giving them a chance sounds like a ponyville reason, not a competitive pokèmon reason (I don't wanna sound offensive dude but I still think your argument lacks of competitive points)
lol wtf
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