Victim of the Week: Week 6, Volcarona

[Electrolyte]

I don't get most of these posts. Starmie without Rapid Spin isn't even that good of a pokemon, definitely not OU material. She's OU just because of her spin. That's why I don't get the point of "countering her" if you cannot block the spin or at least guarantee the kill.

Enemy swaps in Starmie -> You swap in SDef Rotom-W as she spins -> opponent switches Starmie away. Here it doesn't even matter if Rotom-W is good against Starmie, she still got rid of the entry hazards.

For getting the kill, best options are CB Scizor and CB Tyrannitar, though Scizor needs to be wary of Hydro Pumps especially in the rain. Pursuit 1shots her, though she's faster so she can put a decent dent on both, which can be quite detrimental to the Tyranitar in weather wars.

Preventing the spin is tough because Starmie does well against the common spinblockers. I'd just stick to pursuits.


Also, if you're expecting a Choice Band for some reason(Say the team has both a Tentacruel and a Starmie), Starmie might carry Trick and in that case Blissey and SDef Rotom-W for example would be extremely risky to use against her.

I agree that spinblocking Starmie is needed when wanting to keep your hazards up- but I don't think that restricts the amount of counters Starmie has, nor do I think it is absolutely necessary when looking for counters.

Remember, we're countering offensive pokemon- which involves discussing pokemon that can take hits and reply back with powerful attacks or outspeed and OHKO. Starmie's ability to spin is completely unrelated with the pokemon that can counter it- as RSpin is a support move, and counters are meant to be able to shrug off offensive moves. (this is why we're not countering pokemon like Blissey or Forretress.) We're looking at Starmie's offensive side here, not its Rapid Spin.

Besides, there are really no Pokemon that can successfully counter Starmie if they need to be able to spin block as well- bar SBall SpDef Jelli and some Uber pokemon.

And Rotom is a great counter; yes your opponent might spin but you will immediately get a lot of momentum by either KO'ing Starmie with VSwitch or scouting the switch in.

 

[Sam]

I do think that we need to consider Rapid Spin for Starmie. I don't think that necessarily means we can only talk about spin-blockers. This can also include Pokemon that make it a bad move to spin or take momentum away. Rotom-W is a good example for the reasons you listed. ScarfTar is another decent example, as it immediately would threaten any Starmie set with either Pursuit or Crunch. In that scenario, it would be best for the Starmie user to have either Scalded/Hydro Pumped on the switch, or switched out before. To be fair though, Hydro Pump does have a chance to OHKO on the switch after SR, but you get the idea.

 

[Neliel]

Week 5, venusaur!

Venusaur
80 Hp / 82 Atk / 83 Def / 100 Satk / 100 Spd / 80 Spe
Ability: Chlorophyll

Venusaur is one of the most threatening pokemon in this metagame, and for a good reason. While its stat may seem mediocre, with an 82 / 100 / 80 attacking stats, thanks to clorophill and growths this things became very annoying to face, providing there is sun up. Its stab are not the best offensively, poison and grass leave it open to a lot of things, but with differents hidden power it can cover anything. Since giga drain is legal with clorophill now, you cant even try to stall it with the life orb recoil. Venusaur has some trick to kill some of his counters, such as earthquake, and sleep powder that lets it have easier setup. It also has an annoying sub seed set which is difficult to deal with if you let it sub.​

 

[Trinitrotoluene]

As the former writer of the Venusaur revamp, let it be said that changing the weather is usually the best way to deal with Venusaur, since it robs Venusaur of that wonderful Speed increase as well as pseudo-STAB on Hidden Power Fire. Keep in mind that they can't exactly switch in, as all of them risk at least a 2HKO from the 3 moves most commonly present on Venusaur. Specially Defensive Heatran and Chandelure are great counters to variants of Venusaur lacking Earthquake. I'll put more detail in this later.

 

[Nysyr]

To beat Venusaur you have to either outspeed it (good luck), or outlast it in bulkyness. You need to be able to avoid the 2hko (or ohko after +2 with growth), otherwise the best you can do is try to revenge it with priority after it takes residual damage from Lifeorb which is very difficult since it packs gigadrain most of the time.

Different sets have different checks/counters. The blobs are the best universal counter to Venusaur, but need to watch out for the physical variants. Heatran and Tentacruel (ice move and liquid ooze) can handle a venusaur that doesn't have earthquake. Bulky Kyurem (B or N) can take a hit and OHKO back with icebeam. Mamoswine is the best bet for revenging a weakened Venusaur.

Something usually needs to be sacrificed as sleep fodder, but sleep powder sets usually lack the coverage and power, and can be taken down once the moveset it known. (Ferrothorn walls sets without HP fire, Dragons wall sets without sludgebomb).


As to the above comment about Chandelure...

+2 LO Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs 4/0 Chandelure 66.4% - 78.2%

After rocks you have a chance at being OHKOed, forget any chance if you took any prior damage.

 

[Bryce]

When talking about direct counters,Latias with defensive EVs is an excellent choice as it can take even +2 LO sludge Bomb without losing too much health and can KO back with STAB psyshock . Although Latias doesn't have any dedicated defensively oriented sets,it can still run one.Unlike Venusaur's traditional counters such as Heatran,Blobs,it cannot get past Latias through other methods unless it runs a physical set with Outrage(lol).

ScarfTar is a deserves a mention too as it can switch in and change the weather and then threaten it with Stone Edge.It also has a somewhat surprise factor.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

To beat Venusaur you have to either outspeed it (good luck), or outlast it in bulkyness. You need to be able to avoid the 2hko (or ohko after +2 with growth), otherwise the best you can do is try to revenge it with priority after it takes residual damage from Lifeorb which is very difficult since it packs gigadrain most of the time.

Different sets have different checks/counters. The blobs are the best universal counter to Venusaur, but need to watch out for the physical variants. Heatran and Tentacruel (ice move and liquid ooze) can handle a venusaur that doesn't have earthquake. Bulky Kyurem (B or N) can take a hit and OHKO back with icebeam. Mamoswine is the best bet for revenging a weakened Venusaur.

Something usually needs to be sacrificed as sleep fodder, but sleep powder sets usually lack the coverage and power, and can be taken down once the moveset it known. (Ferrothorn walls sets without HP fire, Dragons wall sets without sludgebomb).


As to the above comment about Chandelure...

+2 LO Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs 4/0 Chandelure 66.4% - 78.2%

After rocks you have a chance at being OHKOed, forget any chance if you took any prior damage.

Actually, neither the blobs nor Tentacruel can handle Venusuar. Unless Blissey or Chansey pack Thunder Wave, Venusaur can use them as setup fodder, setting up all to +6; this is the point where both are 2HKOed by Giga Drain. Even with Thunder Wave, the best they can do is to paralyze Venusaur, and then switch to a teammate that can outspeed and defeat Venusaur while it is paralyzed. As for Tentacruel, with Sun and Venusaur's natural resistance to Water making Scald's damage output pathetic, there is very little that Tentacruel can do to stop Venusaur. Even if Tentacruel packs Ice Beam, Venusaur will always survive one and OHKO with a boosted Giga Drain, restoring all health lost on the process.

Heatran and Mamoswine are your best bet at taking Venusaur out while the sun is shining. Venusaur's physical sets will demolish Heatran if they pack Earthquake, but with Earthquake, Venusaur tends to lose coverage against Pokémon like Dragon-types, and thus, it is rare for Venusaur to carry this move. Heatran wall any Venusaur that carries Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain + Hidden Power Fire as moves; and thus, it is the only true counter to Venusaur. As for Mamoswine, it is one of the few Pokémon that can reliably revenge kill Venusaur under sun, but even then, it needs a little prior damage, as even afer 1 Life Orb round, Ice Shard fails to OHKO and Venusaur can simply restore the damage with Giga Drain.

Latias with HP investiment and Psyshock can survive one boosted Sludge Bomb and OHKO. Dragonite can also whitstand a hit if Multiscale is activated, and OHKO with Fire Punch. However, both will be severely weakened, to the point where a teammate is very likely to easily get rid of them.

 

[Nysyr]

Actually, neither the blobs nor Tentacruel can handle Venusuar. Unless Blissey or Chansey pack Thunder Wave, Venusaur can use them as setup fodder, setting up all to +6; this is the point where both are 2HKOed by Giga Drain. Even with Thunder Wave, the best they can do is to paralyze Venusaur, and then switch to a teammate that can outspeed and defeat Venusaur while it is paralyzed. As for Tentacruel, with Sun and Venusaur's natural resistance to Water making Scald's damage output pathetic, there is very little that Tentacruel can do to stop Venusaur. Even if Tentacruel packs Ice Beam, Venusaur will always survive one and OHKO with a boosted Giga Drain, restoring all health lost on the process.

Heatran and Mamoswine are your best bet at taking Venusaur out while the sun is shining. Venusaur's physical sets will demolish Heatran if they pack Earthquake, but with Earthquake, Venusaur tends to lose coverage against Pokémon like Dragon-types, and thus, it is rare for Venusaur to carry this move. Heatran wall any Venusaur that carries Sludge Bomb + Giga Drain + Hidden Power Fire as moves; and thus, it is the only true counter to Venusaur. As for Mamoswine, it is one of the few Pokémon that can reliably revenge kill Venusaur under sun, but even then, it needs a little prior damage, as even afer 1 Life Orb round, Ice Shard fails to OHKO and Venusaur can simply restore the damage with Giga Drain.

Latias with HP investiment and Psyshock can survive one boosted Sludge Bomb and OHKO. Dragonite can also whitstand a hit if Multiscale is activated, and OHKO with Fire Punch. However, both will be severely weakened, to the point where a teammate is very likely to easily get rid of them.

Chansey/Blissey can Twave venusaur. Venu kills itself with gigadrain if it hits a liquid ooze tenta. Ice beam on tenta does have merit since dragons with a lum berry love to try and setup on it.

Context helps, I said revenging with Mamoswine, not outright checking/countering it.

As I said, different sets different counters/checks.

 

[Prinz]

First of all, I must to admit that until Venusaur sleeps someone with Sleep Powder, it's hard to block but when it uses Sleep Powner and sleep someone, it's easier to stop. Speaking about the Pokemon which are great counter/counter for Venusaur, Heatran is the best counter of Venusaur in the game right now, obviously if Venusaur has Earthquake Heatran can't stop it. Chansey and Blissey are good too if they're carrying Thunder Wave to paralyze Venusaur and to switch to a teammate to revenge-kill Venusaur which is paralyzed. Any Steel-types in general is a good counter for Venusaur if it hasn't Hidden Power Fire. However, the best method to deal with Venusaur is take away the sunlight to take away Venusaur's Speed too and to revenge-kill it easily later. An underrated check for Venusaur is Whimsicott, which can switch into Giga Drain/Growth, use Encore to lock Venusaur thanks to Prankster in its previous move and then use Stun Spore to paralyze it to block any chance to sweep and to revenge-kill easily Venusaur later. Another good method to deal with Venusaur is revenge-kill it with powerful priority moves such as Mamoswine's Ice Shard and Scizor's Choice Band, which can give some problem to Venusaur. Finally, I'd like to post some sets, just to make this post more complete, here they are:

Heatran (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 HP / 232 SDef / 24 Spd
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Protect
- Toxic
- Earth Power
- Lava Plume

Blissey (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
- Softboiled
- Aromatherapy
- Seismic Toss
- Thunder Wave

Whimsicott (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Prankster
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Leech Seed
- Encore
- Taunt
- Stun Spore

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Chansey/Blissey can Twave venusaur. Venu kills itself with gigadrain if it hits a liquid ooze tenta. Ice beam on tenta does have merit since dragons with a lum berry love to try and setup on it.

Context helps, I said revenging with Mamoswine, not outright checking/countering it.

As I said, different sets different counters/checks.

Nobody uses Liquid Ooze on Tentacruel. Rain Dish is a much more useful ability, since it makes up for Tentacruel's lack of reliable recovery. Even on a non-rain team, Rain Dish is a more useful ability, since it lets Tentacruel take advantage of enemy Rain. Chansey and Blissey can use Thunder Wave, but they need Toxic to reliably kill threats that they can wall, so if they pack Toxic, they become setup fodder for Venusaur.

 

[Tassa]

From experience, Liquid Ooze Cruel is a decent answer to Venusaur.
I used to carry a hard stall (0 EV in atk/spatk) for fun, and it was my only way to eliminate it. I switched Cruel in when it boosted itself, it failed to kill with Giga-Drain, I used Ice Beam and it usually died from recoil of life orb + Liquid ooze. Also note that if it try to use a coverage move, Cruel survive and kill it. SubSeed variant will not like liquid ooze too.
Sleep Powder can be annoying if you are unlucky with the duration of the sleep.
Anyway, you lose cruel in the process so it's a way to deal with it if you don't have anything else, but in no means a counter.

In a similar way, Lati@s Scarf is pretty good to RK it since most Venusaur run modest and are outspeed by ScarfTi@s. It can counter the variant which lacks Sleep Powder, but you won't take the risk most of time.

 

[Lyconik]

If we are talking about the growth set, Ninetales and Dragonite can counter venusaur if SR aren't on your side. Ninetales specially defensive (the only "effective" set on ninetales) take 68,19% - 80,23% from +2 LO Sludge Bomb and can OKHO back with flamethrower. Dragonite take 49,23% - 57,59% from the same attack and hit in return with a boosted fire punch.

Ninetales @ Leftovers
Trait: Drought
EVs: 48 Spd / 248 HP / 212 SDef
Calm Nature
- Flamethrower
- Will-O-Wisp
- Sunny Day
- Roar / Protect

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 Atk / 4 HP
Adamant Nature
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch
- ExtremeSpeed

 

[MudcrabDL]

Obviously the best way to counter Venusaur involves a weather change; as with most chlorophyll sweepers, this absolutely cripples his effectiveness. Another less thought of but potentially more effective way to counter Venusaur, I've found, is Trick Room Reuniclus. A specially defensive variant can quite happily set up Trick Room and revenge kill Growth Venusaur with a super effective Psychic or Psyshock, while taking only neutral damage from his attacks. (Even better, with decent prediction, switch in on Hidden Power Fire if he fires one off at a rogue Ferrothorn before he Growth boosts.) It pays to have a few more abusers of Trick Room on your team, though, so the momentum you build up with Reuniclus doesn't go to waste if he gets priority killed (which is unfortunately likely, Venusaur packs a hell of a punch.) If the opponent has no priority, though, just go to town.

Reuniclus @ Life Orb
Ability: Magic Guard
QUIET Nature
192HP/128SpDef/188SpAtt
Trick Room
Psychic/Psyshock
Focus Blast
Hidden Power Fire/Hidden Power Ice

(If you're particularly worried about Sleep Powder, switch for a Flame Orb, but I'd be reluctant to lose the Life Orb power drop; let something else fall asleep first.)

 

[MeteorMiss]

It's worth noting that any scafer with over 107 base speed can outspeed Venusaur even in sun. Most notably, this includes Terrakion and Latios.

 

[Schpoonman]

Only Modest Venusaur. Timid Venusaur is MUCH harder to outspeed. Granted, Modest Venusaur is by far more common, but it's still something that needs to be mentioned.

 

[ganj4lF]

Specially Defensive Rotom-H is a great check, if not an outright counter, to Venusaur. Unfortunately, after the banning of Genesect and Tornadus-T, it became much less viable since the main reasons to use it were removed. However, it is notable because it's virtually immune to trapping (both Latias and Heatran can be removed in this way, with smart play), it's not hit by Earthquake, and can OHKO back with Overheat. Sludge Bomb (if Venusaur carries it) is a 3HKO if SR are not into play (yeah, its biggest problem is its reliance on Spinners / Bouncers); also, while Genesect is gone, Rotom can still take anything Scizor throws at him (bar Superpower maybe, but it still doesn't OHKO) and destroy it even in rain with no hazards thanks to STAB Overheat. So, while it's probably more niche than ever, it does a great job at checking both Venusaur and even some other common threat out there.

 

[TaBuu]

Lord of Bays brings an interesting fact to keep in mind. Venusaur actually has a tendency to run Timid Nature now as it really throws it up into untouchable speed tiers. And whenever I use Venusaur, Timid is a must. Modest, while it does get some KOs here and there, it generally isn't worth it as too many Common Scarfers can then KO Modest Vensaur.

ganj4|F introduces Rotom-H into the discussion. Rotom-H actually not only halts non-Sleep Power Venusaur [or if Sleep Clause if already activated] but it gains the ability to deal with a good majority of Drought Teams. But it doesn't stop there as Rotom-H really does have a chance IMO to work well against many various threats. Scizor is going to hate Heat Forme while Politoed might have to eat a nasty Volt Switch. Rotom-Heat is fantastic for checking Sun and Rain teams, as even under Rain, Rotom-H can dent some Steel Types that litter Drizzle teams.

Rotom-W is my b*tch ;]​

 

[Neliel]

Now starts week 6!

Volcarona
85 Hp / 60 Atk / 65 Def / 135 Satk / 105 Spd / 100 Spe
Abilities: Flame body, Swarm

We all know why Volcarona is Ou; Quiver dance. This moth have the access to one of the best boosting move, being a special dragon dance with the bonus of the special defense. Volcarona seems perfect to use quiver dance, 100 base speed is not bad in this metagame, and 135 special atk its just awesome. Its stab are not bad either, fire and bug are good, but also the other coverage moves it has make make it even more threatening. The fact that under sun it has a 270 base power move with quiver dance, is enough to say how scary it can be. But if you want to use it under rain, you can do that too, since it also have the cool Hurricane to combine with bug buzz. If this want enough, in bw2 it got giga drain and roost, being able to bypass terrakion and keldeo easier, as well as being able to run defensive sets more efficently. You also have to face the fact that everytime you are using a dragon to counter it, it will have hidden power ice, and if you use Heatran it will have hp ground. So this is one of those counterless pokemon, but then why it isnt in every single team? the reason is its typing, that lets it take 50% from stealth rock. This is an huge let down for it, since stealth rock is almost in every team. Sometimes you dont even need to counter it, because the fact that there is sr up will garante you it wont sweep.​

 

[DarkBlazeR]

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
Jolly Nature
- Close Combat
- Stone Edge
- X-scissor
- Rock Slide

Few Pokémon can check Volcarona with the reliability that Scarf Terrakion can. With the appropriate coverage move (i.e. HP Ground / HP Rock / Giga Drain), Volcarona is capable of bypassing virtually all of the things that wall its STABs. However, Scarf Terrakion is perhaps its greatest nemesis because it outspeeds a +1 Volcarona and KOs it with Stone Edge or Rock Slide. As Terrakion resists Volcarona's STABs and has decent special bulk, it can switch in pretty easily and immediately threaten it. As long as you don't make any stupid mistakes, it should never find the opportunity to set up 2 QDs. I don't think there's any doubt that Scarf Terrakion is THE stop to a potential Volcarona sweep.

 

[Soul Fly]

Let's get the Obvious one out of the way

There. That is the No. 1 check to volcarona, and you don't even have to predict it's switch in.




Now moving on to Pokemon we have...

Gyarados

Now I personally don't run HP rock on my Volc (heatran blows), but let's assume the worst case scenario. You're caught on a bad switch and Volcarona uses the opportunity to quiver dance...
yet..

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Hidden Power Rock vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 307-361 (81.86 - 96.26%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

meanwhile

128+ Atk Gyarados Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Volcarona: 362-428 (116.39 - 137.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO..

Among other Notable mentions we have

Dragonite
Let's face it. HP ice is lot less common. Volcarona has more to worry about a Heatran outright walling both it's STABS with a 4x resistance/immunity or a terrakion/keldeo OHKOing it. Even if it has, Multiscale will pretty much ensure that you can kill it between Coverage Move+Extremespeed

Air Balloon Heatran
Good luck hitting this thing with HP Ground. Your other options include Activating flash fire or choosing to pop his balloon with Bug buzz with does ~10%. If you don't have HP ground? GG.
Beware though. Heatran's Fire blast 2HKOes, so you're better of pulling of this stunt with rocks up/prior damage.


And lastly....

Ultimate cheapass bitchmon of Gen 5 checks it hard. With Drizzle just give up, even at +1/+1/+1 he'll just spam Hydro Pump with nothing to fear.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Politoed Hydro Pump vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Volcarona: 320-380 (102.89 - 122.18%) -- guaranteed OHKO

bulky sets are also good but otherwise inferior in my opinion as it is outsped by any fast scarfer even at +1, so they are much easier to check


EDIT: My last Toed Calc forgot to factor rain... LOL, Considering this, even Scarf Set checks it

 

[spooky96]

Alright the first of course problem is Stealth Rock.

After one Quiver Dance Volcarona becomes a monster, even the bulky variant of it. Few can claim to safely switch in.

The Special Wall variant of Jellicent is a good check to it as it resists all the usual moves of Volcarona. Here's the set:

252 HP / 36 Def / 220 SpD
-Scald
-Recover
-Toxic
-Shadow Ball

This Jellicent is what I run in one of my team. It easily takes care of even +1 SPA Volcarona. I can either just Scald or Toxic and then just Recover all the damage it has done.

Other checks which are worth mentioning are most variants of Heatran and Dragonite (Hoping it doesn't carry HP Rock). Tentacruel too if you're running Special Defense EVs. And.....




Blissey >_>

 

[stairwaytohell]

Well, the most common volca's counters has been already posted so i'll post an uncommon one.

Dragonite @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 SDef / 252 HP / 4 Atk
Careful Nature
- Dragon Tail
- Hurricane
- Roost
- Thunder

Dragonite is so weird with this set but i see it sometimes on the ladder. This tankish set is used on rain teams, so dragonite can check volcarona even better due to the nerfed fire moves. This set has enough bulkyness ( helped by multiscale + roost ) to survive volca's attacks and then phaze it out with dragon tail. You won't need to use hurricane and thunder to check volcarona, but i said that this nite has to be under the rain to be successful against volcarona, so these moves are like a must. Gyarados and Salamence can use similar sets to check volcarona. I think that also Chandelure can be a good check to volca: with a 4x resistance to bug moves and flash fire it should work well.

 

[Neliel]

@stairwaytohell, maybe you could use thunder wave instead of thunder? not only it checks better volcarona, but its a better option in general.

 

[stairwaytohell]

of course, i put thunder randomly just because rainnite usually carry the hurricane + thunder combo.

 

[pom]

Keldeo @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Surf
- Secret Sword
- Icy Wind
- Hidden Power [Electric]

252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 252-296 (67.92 - 79.78%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

or

252 SpA Keldeo Surf vs. +1 240 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona: 200-236 (53.9 - 63.61%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 123-146 (37.96 - 45.06%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

and worst case:

+1 252 SpA Volcarona Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Keldeo: 276-326 (85.18 - 100.61%) -- 6.25% chance to OHKO

So unless Volca has Giga Drain, it will never get past Keldeo as long as you switch Keldeo in directly as it Quiver Dances. Even if it doesn't QD, and goes right for the Giga Drain, Keldeo will still win. Sun being up also makes it harder to check, but chances are you're running Keldeo with either Tyranitar or Politoed. Now, if Rocks are up, Volca has no chance whatsoever unless it gets to +3 or something ridiculous (Hydro Pump misses maybe?).