Crobat counters Breloom easily fearing nothing except for Stone Edge/Rock Tomb, either defensive or offensive. CB Crobat (can run Sleep Talk) is decent enough in OU since it can OHKO some things like Dragonite and Gyarados (adamant) at +1 after SR (and pretty much anything frail that it outspeeds, even Latios) making it a great revenge killer.
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Victim of the Week: Week 6, Volcarona
- Thread starter Neliel
- Start date
Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Regenerator
252 HP / 28 SpA / 228 Def | Bold
~ Giga Drain
~ Clear Smog
~ Spore
~ Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Sludge Wave / Stun Spore
252+ Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 124-147 (28.7 - 34.02%) -- 8.89% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 97-115 (22.45 - 26.62%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+6(!!!!) 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 259-305 (59.95 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 93-111 (21.52 - 25.69%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
28 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 278-330 (106.1 - 125.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire / Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 138-164 (52.67 - 62.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Low Sweep vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 97-115 (22.45 - 26.62%) -- possible 4HKO after Stealth Rock
+6(!!!!) 252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 259-305 (59.95 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Breloom Focus Punch vs. 252 HP / 224+ Def Amoonguss: 93-111 (21.52 - 25.69%) -- possible 5HKO after Stealth Rock
28 SpA Amoonguss Sludge Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 278-330 (106.1 - 125.95%) -- guaranteed OHKO
28 SpA Amoonguss Hidden Power Fire / Ice vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 138-164 (52.67 - 62.59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
If you want a full stop to any Breelom variant, there's not a better one than physically defensive Amoonguss in my opinion. As you can see, it can switch in to catch a spore against Low Sweep Techniloom and will often be able to wake up from its nap alive. SD Techniloom can't break through either, because +6 Mach Punch is not an OHKO. SubSeed Breelom is usually stopped cold, because Amoonguss is immune to Leech Seed and FP is only a 5HKO.
Amoonguss can then give Breeloom some of its own medicine via Spore, paralyze it, OHKO with a Sludge Wave or 2HKO with Hidden Power.
So when is the third discusee due?
Neliel
Sacred Sword
Sorry for the delay, yesterday i didnt have time to do it.
Landorus-t
89 Hp / 145 Atk / 90 Def / 105 SpA / 80 Spd / 91 Spe
Ability: Intimidate
Landorus-t its a very dangerous pokemon if used correctly, thanks to its ability it can easily set up a rock polish or a sword dance depending or the situation. Its impressive attack lets it have one of the strongest earthquake in Ou, and thanks to move like Gravity or stone edge, even flying and levitate pokemon have to think twice before switching on it. While its speed its not stellar, its enough to outspeed the whole metagame after a rock polish, and enough to sweep a slow team with sword dance. Its weaknesses are common by the way, almost any water/ice attack will kill it. Other usefull moves are Explosion, that lets it do impressive damage in combination with normal gem, and u-turn that lets it continue the volturn strategy. Its special attack its not as bad as you may think, things like Starmie only has 100 base Spa and are really threatening, the problem with landorus-t is that its outclassed by its brother Landorus. So what do you use to stop Landorus-t?
Landorus-t
89 Hp / 145 Atk / 90 Def / 105 SpA / 80 Spd / 91 Spe
Ability: Intimidate
Landorus-t its a very dangerous pokemon if used correctly, thanks to its ability it can easily set up a rock polish or a sword dance depending or the situation. Its impressive attack lets it have one of the strongest earthquake in Ou, and thanks to move like Gravity or stone edge, even flying and levitate pokemon have to think twice before switching on it. While its speed its not stellar, its enough to outspeed the whole metagame after a rock polish, and enough to sweep a slow team with sword dance. Its weaknesses are common by the way, almost any water/ice attack will kill it. Other usefull moves are Explosion, that lets it do impressive damage in combination with normal gem, and u-turn that lets it continue the volturn strategy. Its special attack its not as bad as you may think, things like Starmie only has 100 base Spa and are really threatening, the problem with landorus-t is that its outclassed by its brother Landorus. So what do you use to stop Landorus-t?
Landorus-T has no solid counters. Whilst a number of things may be able to wall the common Earthquake/Stone Edge/U-turn set, it has a number of tricks up its sleeves that enable it to bypass any potential check. With Gravity, it can turn the tables on Bronzong/Skarmory, and with enough Sp. Attack to make viable use of Hidden Power [Ice], even Gliscor and Tangrowth can't switch in with impunity. Hell, it can even use Bulk Up to let it survive Ice Shards from things like Mamoswine.
I'd say perhaps the most reliable check to Landorus-T in general would be Bold Cresselia, as it takes less than 33% from U-turn from the standard Stealth Rock pivot set, whilst being able to comfortably 2HKO it with Ice Beam and recover off any damage with Moonlight. If we're just talking pure physical sets, then Tangrowth/your own Landorus-T with HP [Ice]/Gliscor with Ice Fang are able to take it on solidly, as can Bronzong if the enemy Landorus-T does not have Gravity. Skarmory, whilst not being able to threaten it directly, can at least force out the double dance sets with Whirlwind.
As Neliel has already mentioned, perhaps Landorus-T's downfall are weaknesses to common moves, coupled with its average but acceptable base Speed. The key to beating it successfully is to keep it under offensive pressure - as long as you don't let it set up, you should have little problem revenge killing it. You don't necessarily need to use a Water/Ice attack to KO it - in general it struggles to take strong special attacks.
I'd say perhaps the most reliable check to Landorus-T in general would be Bold Cresselia, as it takes less than 33% from U-turn from the standard Stealth Rock pivot set, whilst being able to comfortably 2HKO it with Ice Beam and recover off any damage with Moonlight. If we're just talking pure physical sets, then Tangrowth/your own Landorus-T with HP [Ice]/Gliscor with Ice Fang are able to take it on solidly, as can Bronzong if the enemy Landorus-T does not have Gravity. Skarmory, whilst not being able to threaten it directly, can at least force out the double dance sets with Whirlwind.
As Neliel has already mentioned, perhaps Landorus-T's downfall are weaknesses to common moves, coupled with its average but acceptable base Speed. The key to beating it successfully is to keep it under offensive pressure - as long as you don't let it set up, you should have little problem revenge killing it. You don't necessarily need to use a Water/Ice attack to KO it - in general it struggles to take strong special attacks.
Virizion is an awesome counter to it, to be honest. Unfortunately, it's not seen anymore in OU, but it has literally nothing to fear from Lando-T except the super rare (in my experience) Superpower from the Scarf set. Resistance to EdgeQuake, neutrality to U-Turn, passable bulk (yeah not really defensively, but those resistances are enough to handle even LO boosted Earthquake) ensure Virizion a quite safe switch in, then it can OHKO most of the Lando-T variants with an unboosted HP Ice (assuming max SpA investment). The Offensive Pivot is not really OHKO'd, but it has troubles even trying to 3HKO Virizion, so that's not a problem at all.
You know what's pretty funny? Agility Metagross is actually a decent check to Landorus-T. Clear Body prevent's Intimidate from working, meaning that he gets to keep his absurd attack at its maximum. Not only that but the standard Adamant 64 attack EVs Landorus-T has only about a 50% chance to OHKO with Earthquake on 4/0 Agiligross. With maximum speed and an Adamant Nature, Metagross will outspeed the standard 0 speed Landorus-T and will always OHKO with Ice Punch. Landorus-T needs 180 speed EVs to outspeed max speed Jolly Metagross, which no one ever runs on him anyway. Like I said, not a counter, but a pretty decent check, which no one really expects.
Its extremely hard to counter LT. What makes it so hard is he's teamed up with Jellicent which is a special tank that eats Ice and Water attacks (super, super, annoying). But if we are just talking about 1v1, Rotom-W is amazing, with its bulk it can one shot LT with a hydro pump, will-o-wisp- or even volt switch the random switch in
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Another decent check to Landorus-T is Air Ballon Heatran. It can switch on Earthquake or Stealth Rock safely and OHKO with Hidden Power Ice, or 2HKO with Fire Blast. Non-Choice Scarf unboosted variants will also be outsped (Scarf variants can be taken out if they are locked on anything other than Superpower) and OHKOed by Hidden Power Ice or 2HKOed by Fire Blast (OHKOed if it is sun-boosted). It takes little damage from Stone Edge, and does not fear anything that Landorus-T can use, apart from Superpower. Heatran should be careful however; it takes little damage from Stone Edge, U-Turn, or Hidden Power Ice, but by switching on these attacks, its Air Ballon is poped; if Landorus-T happens to be using max Speed with a Jolly Nature, it will outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake.
As a note, Heatran is peharps the best check to RP/SD/Double Dance variants of Landorus-T. It can switch-in on a boosted move, and outspeed and threathen to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice.
However, Heatran should be wary of Gravity variants. Unlike most Landorus-T sets, they tend to run speed-boosting natures. If they use Gravity on the switch, they will outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake, because Gravity will negate Air Ballon (without the need to hit Heatran with another attack first).
As a note, Heatran is peharps the best check to RP/SD/Double Dance variants of Landorus-T. It can switch-in on a boosted move, and outspeed and threathen to OHKO with Hidden Power Ice.
However, Heatran should be wary of Gravity variants. Unlike most Landorus-T sets, they tend to run speed-boosting natures. If they use Gravity on the switch, they will outspeed and OHKO with Earthquake, because Gravity will negate Air Ballon (without the need to hit Heatran with another attack first).
Just like his Incarnate counterpart, Mamoswine manhandles Landorus-Therian. Even without a boosting item and after Intimidate, Ice Shard 2HKOs the offensive pivot, without rocks if you get good rolls. Icicle Crash OHKOs any variant outright even without a boosting item and after Intimidate (well, it does 94%, but if you're running Sash there's a decent chance you're running Rocks). The worst he can do back is Intimidate you and get out or attack with Earthquake for moderate damage, but trying to set up is just begging to get drilled by a 4x SE STAB Ice-type attack.
252Atk Life Orb Mamoswine (+Atk) Earthquake vs 252HP/0Def Jellicent (Neutral): 77% - 91% (313 - 370 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
LO Earthquake absolutely mangles SpDef Jellicent.
I tried to find a Mamoswine with "Deal with it" but all I got was Druddigon, so here you go.
Slowbro (F) @ Leftovers
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 248 HP / 248 Def / 12 SAtk
Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
- Scald
- Psyshock
- Slack Off
- Thunder Wave / Fire Blast
Slowbro is probably the best of Landorus-T because thanks to its high physical defense, it can tank easily Landorus-T's attacks, recover its HP with Slack Off and then hit hard Landorus-T with Scald. However, Landorus-T's U-Turn can be a problem for Slowbro since Landorus-T is usually paired with a Pursuit user such as Choice Band Tyranitar and Scizor which can eliminate Slowbro easily.
The best counters to LandyT imo are:
LO Latias (U-turn is so pathetic, trust me).
Defensive Politoed (talk about walled)
Bronzong (+6 / +6 LandyT would still lose to Zong)
Slowbro (OTR FTW)
Growth Venu (dfag about EQ js)
Mamoswine (it gets icicle spear; fuck intimidate)
Anyway, I would say LandyT's biggest downfall is not having a recovery move! :)
LO Latias (U-turn is so pathetic, trust me).
Defensive Politoed (talk about walled)
Bronzong (+6 / +6 LandyT would still lose to Zong)
Slowbro (OTR FTW)
Growth Venu (dfag about EQ js)
Mamoswine (it gets icicle spear; fuck intimidate)
Uh, what? Yeah LandyT is a good Pokemon but it certainly has counters.DarkBlazeR said:
Anyway, I would say LandyT's biggest downfall is not having a recovery move! :)
I think you misinterpreted my post. My point was that although a number of things can switch into the standard defensive set, Landorus-T can also run a number of offensive sets which cannot be so easily countered. It isn't too difficult to check, but there are very few Pokémon that can switch into all Landorus-T sets with zero risk. Sure, each individual set has things that it struggles with, but until you know its set, there aren't really any definite safe switch-ins. Okay, it may not be that difficult to check, but countering it (i.e. be able to switch in to it with total impunity) is far from a simple task. Whether the offensive Landorus-T sets are considered relevant in OU or not, I still don't think we should consider something a hard counter because it can wall one or two sets, but not all of them. Whilst a number of Pokémon can run gimmick sets to beat their usual counters, the boosting/Gravity sets are most definitely viable and worth considering.
For the defensive pivot, there are plenty of viable checks and counters for Landorus-T:
Checks:
To list a few. Basically, Pokemon that outspeed and that run some type or Water or Ice attack will usually prove troublesome for Landorus-T. Most of the Pokemon listed above are only checks though, because a majority of them (Starmie, Celebi, Lati@s) will take big damage from U-turn.
As far as counters go, anything that either resists or is immune to the EdgeQuake combo and doesn't fear much from U-turn makes for a good counter.
Counters:
Bronzong and Skarmory are immune to Earthquake, while the former resists Stone Edge and the latter is neutral to it. However they both have great Defense stats so they basically hard wall Landorus-T. Ironically, Landorus-T walls itself pretty nicely, although you must be wary of switching into an HP Ice. Tangrowth is in the same boat, and although it takes ~30% from U-turn, it has Regenerator so it shouldn't be an issue after it switches out. Rotom-W doesn't fear much from any of its attacks, is immune to Earthquake, and can force it out with either Hydro Pump or Will-o-wisp.
Checks:
- Mamoswine
- Politoed
- Starmie
- L@tios (with Surf or Draco Meteor)
- Celebi (with Hidden Power Ice)
To list a few. Basically, Pokemon that outspeed and that run some type or Water or Ice attack will usually prove troublesome for Landorus-T. Most of the Pokemon listed above are only checks though, because a majority of them (Starmie, Celebi, Lati@s) will take big damage from U-turn.
As far as counters go, anything that either resists or is immune to the EdgeQuake combo and doesn't fear much from U-turn makes for a good counter.
Counters:
- Bronzong
- Landorus-T
- Skarmory
- Tangrowth
- Rotom-W
Bronzong and Skarmory are immune to Earthquake, while the former resists Stone Edge and the latter is neutral to it. However they both have great Defense stats so they basically hard wall Landorus-T. Ironically, Landorus-T walls itself pretty nicely, although you must be wary of switching into an HP Ice. Tangrowth is in the same boat, and although it takes ~30% from U-turn, it has Regenerator so it shouldn't be an issue after it switches out. Rotom-W doesn't fear much from any of its attacks, is immune to Earthquake, and can force it out with either Hydro Pump or Will-o-wisp.
I'm surprised that no one proposed Forretress as he can packs HP Ice to catch x4 weaknesses ice pokemons like Gliscor or Dragonite.
Here the set:
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
36 SpA Forretress Hidden Power Ice vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 172-204 (46.61 - 55.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Forretress: 100-118 (28.24 - 33.33%) -- possible 4HKO
Probably the best Landorus-T counter.
If you expect a U-turn you can spread hazards, spin or just volt switch to keep the momentum.
Here the set:
Forretress (M) @ Leftovers
Trait: Sturdy
EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 SAtk
Relaxed Nature (+Def, -Spd)
- Rapid Spin
- Spikes / Stealth Rock
- Volt Switch
- Hidden Power Ice
36 SpA Forretress Hidden Power Ice vs. 200 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-T: 172-204 (46.61 - 55.28%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
64+ Atk Landorus-T Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 220+ Def Forretress: 100-118 (28.24 - 33.33%) -- possible 4HKO
Probably the best Landorus-T counter.
If you expect a U-turn you can spread hazards, spin or just volt switch to keep the momentum.
Well the main top notch guys have been covered really quickly but I'd just like to add my 2 cents.
Lando-T's own Therian brother Thundurus-T gives it a really hard time. Doesn't mind the attack drop, and decimates him with HP Ice. U-Turning out won't damage him much either.
That being said Lando has Stone Edge, so it is better used as a revenger.
Intimidate is kind of annoying. Mamo loses that killing edge from the Ice Shard thanks to it, and consequently cannot OHKO a healthy Lando-t. and it does NOT enjoy taking an earthquake from that obscene base 145 attack.
Skarmory also has the ability to sit in front of it all day, thanks to EQ immunity + roost, but cannot hit it back hard, so it's kind of a stalemate there.
The Lati twins are a good answer. I'd categorise them as checks, because they absolutely do NOT enjoy that U-Turn but apart from that they easily outspeed and OHKO that thing with surf/Draco meteor.
Rotom-Wash, the ultimate OU a-hole is as good a counter to Lando-T as he is a partner. Both Will-o-Wisp and Hydro Pump wet Lando-T's undies and it cannot land a super effective move at him (Unless it's the rare Gravity set) so I'd say he's a hard check to it.
PS: I was kind of surprised that in the last victim discussion nobody really paid attention to Lando-T as a hard breloom counter. Intimidate + Ground/Flying makes even a boosted techniloom a sitting duck on it's face. It's the worst nightmare for any Breloom user since Torn-T left the tier.
Lando-T's own Therian brother Thundurus-T gives it a really hard time. Doesn't mind the attack drop, and decimates him with HP Ice. U-Turning out won't damage him much either.
That being said Lando has Stone Edge, so it is better used as a revenger.
Intimidate is kind of annoying. Mamo loses that killing edge from the Ice Shard thanks to it, and consequently cannot OHKO a healthy Lando-t. and it does NOT enjoy taking an earthquake from that obscene base 145 attack.
Skarmory also has the ability to sit in front of it all day, thanks to EQ immunity + roost, but cannot hit it back hard, so it's kind of a stalemate there.
The Lati twins are a good answer. I'd categorise them as checks, because they absolutely do NOT enjoy that U-Turn but apart from that they easily outspeed and OHKO that thing with surf/Draco meteor.
Rotom-Wash, the ultimate OU a-hole is as good a counter to Lando-T as he is a partner. Both Will-o-Wisp and Hydro Pump wet Lando-T's undies and it cannot land a super effective move at him (Unless it's the rare Gravity set) so I'd say he's a hard check to it.
PS: I was kind of surprised that in the last victim discussion nobody really paid attention to Lando-T as a hard breloom counter. Intimidate + Ground/Flying makes even a boosted techniloom a sitting duck on it's face. It's the worst nightmare for any Breloom user since Torn-T left the tier.
Really surprised no one has said anything about Weavile. It being in UU now means nothing- it has the perfect niche to be a revenge killer, and it helps me with Landy-T all the time. I personally use this set:
Weavile @ Life Orb
Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Ice Shard
-Ice Punch
-Pursuit
-Low Kick
While I realize Low Kick has nothing to do with Landy, all three moves besides it do major damage to Landy. Anyone that hasn't boosted itself in some way will most likely switch- which can be easily predicted because any Landy-T is scared of STAB Ice moves off a Weavile. Ice Shard can be used for any boosted by Rock Polish, and Ice Punch can be used for gravity variants, should they choose to stay in. Intimidate really is only a minor set-back, and Weavile is flawed because you have to take the intimidate or use death fodder, but she is still excellent at what she does. The combination of Priority STAB Ice move and the fact Weavile can outspeed in most cases with an Ice Punch combined with Pursuit to deal huge damage when switching is very good, making Weavile a great check.
Weavile @ Life Orb
Pressure
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe
-Ice Shard
-Ice Punch
-Pursuit
-Low Kick
While I realize Low Kick has nothing to do with Landy, all three moves besides it do major damage to Landy. Anyone that hasn't boosted itself in some way will most likely switch- which can be easily predicted because any Landy-T is scared of STAB Ice moves off a Weavile. Ice Shard can be used for any boosted by Rock Polish, and Ice Punch can be used for gravity variants, should they choose to stay in. Intimidate really is only a minor set-back, and Weavile is flawed because you have to take the intimidate or use death fodder, but she is still excellent at what she does. The combination of Priority STAB Ice move and the fact Weavile can outspeed in most cases with an Ice Punch combined with Pursuit to deal huge damage when switching is very good, making Weavile a great check.
A bunch of these 'hard counters' can't even check double dance lando-t, such as rotom and forretress. Latios is possibly the best switch in imo. You don't lose momentum, it is likely to come in on an EQ or shaky accuracy stone edge and it can KO with draco or surf. Outspeeding lando-t is the main reason why it is the best, the only thing to watch for is scarf uturn spam, but that is easy to scout out.
Bronzong would win best go-to counter if gravity didn't exist.
Bronzong would win best go-to counter if gravity didn't exist.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
skarmory is the #1 counter to lando-t, it can take stone edges and roost up all day while setting up spikes on free turns, and if lando tries to get cute and set up a swords dance, whirlwind takes care of that. however, as mentioned above me, skarm can't do a ton back offensively, especially with intimidate as a factor, so if it comes down to a 1v1 with sd lando-t vs skarm, lando-t wins. another great checking to the dancing version of lando-t, but not the utility version, is tangrowth, who tanks whatever edgequake combo you care to throw at it, but is weak to u-turn and doesn't enjoy hp ice either. another nice check is bronzong, who resists stone edge and is immune to earthquake, but can get worn down pretty easily from u-turn due to its lack of reliable recovery. still, it's a solid answer for a good amount of time. as far as spinners go, forretress and donphan both do a pretty good job handling any lando-t, since its attacks aren't doing much and they can both remove rocks at a whim. they can't do a ton back to lando, though. surprisingly, the list of checks and counters to this thing is pretty limited. outside from what i've already mentioned, there's not much that can handle it. some people have brought up rotom-w, but your standard sdef variant is slower than lando-t, so it can 3hko with stone edge (or 2hko after rocks with sand up) and even if it mispredicts and quakes into the switch, it can simply u-turn out and try again later. in summary, there's not a lot of stuff that stops lando-t in its tracks from a defensive perspective, but for the things that do, lando-t can't touch them.
the ever rare bulk up breloom set with toxic orb does not have much to worry about from standard lando setss and also helps break up the rotom lando core you were referring too, sure it hates hp ice, but at full health it can live through it spore you and just keep setting up. or switch out to something better.
Intimidate is a bitch here. It robs you of that +1 attack boost. (let's admit it, you will not get to more than +1/+1 9 times out of ten) and Even Seed Bomb/Bullet seed does neutral which with that 200 Def investment does laughable damage. Yes spore is a good check on the subtoxic set, but you're only delaying the inevitable, especially now that you have activated sleep clause, assuming that you were able to set up without using spore (because breloom absolutely relies on spore to set up most of the times to begin with)
Even an Asleep Lando-T can just keep switching in to chip away all that offensive boosts, and TBH you can't do anything about it.