-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Venomoth
- Thread starter Pgirts
- Start date
seems like the best set is going to be
venomoth @ life orb
modest
tinted lens
252 spa 252 spe 4 hp
butterfly dance
bug buzz
psychic
baton pass/sleep powder
you only need 2 attacks for perfect neutral coverage and if they bring in something you can't handle then bp out. sleep powder is less reliable but can let you get to +2 more easily with the speed boost from butterfly dance, letting you sleep most anything that switches in. Psychic is the stand out attack since it hits fighting and poison for SE damage, which is where most of the 4x bug resists come from.
venomoth @ life orb
modest
tinted lens
252 spa 252 spe 4 hp
butterfly dance
bug buzz
psychic
baton pass/sleep powder
you only need 2 attacks for perfect neutral coverage and if they bring in something you can't handle then bp out. sleep powder is less reliable but can let you get to +2 more easily with the speed boost from butterfly dance, letting you sleep most anything that switches in. Psychic is the stand out attack since it hits fighting and poison for SE damage, which is where most of the 4x bug resists come from.
^You don't need two attacks on a pokemon with Tinted Lens and a sleep move. There's really no reason not to use both Sleep Powder and Baton Pass, as having both of these moves is infinitely better than having 'perfect coverage'. Just sleep any 4x resist and pass.
Look, chances are that Sleep Powder is going have to be used to even get a few BD's under Venomoth's belt, so using it to sleep a 4X resist counter and then baton passing is most likely not going to happen. Venomoth can either be dedicated to sweeping by itself, or purely as a baton passer of BD's, it can't be both.
If it is going to be a Baton passer, go with Bug Buzz for STAB, and drop Psychic for Sub.
Venomoth already is differentiated from other BD users by being the best user of it outside OU (if Urgamoth is OU), and getting perfect neutral coverage thanks to Tinted Lens and Bug Buzz/ Psychic. Frankly, its the other BD that need to differentiate themselves from Venomoth.
Or you could run Sleep Powder and a Lum Berry and just wait before shooting it off. Ditto comes in after you likely Bug Buzz something down, it Scarf-Sleeps you, Lum wakes you up, you Sleep Ditto. Then pass to something with Substitute.
...I think we're getting a little off-topic now. If we wanna discuss Butterfree, someone go make a Butterfree thread. :\
Back on topic... people keep assuming Venomoth will be lower tier, but Ulgamoth can't pass those BDance boosts. :0 As a Passer, at least, it should still be kinda viable in OU.
Back on topic... people keep assuming Venomoth will be lower tier, but Ulgamoth can't pass those BDance boosts. :0 As a Passer, at least, it should still be kinda viable in OU.
Venomoth makes a rather decent lead. Sleep Powder is wonderful when it hits. When it misses Tinted Lens Bug Buzz can still give you a shot at not being immediately down 5-6. I usually Sleep Powder the lead then proceed to Bug Buzz.
Oftentimes my opponent will switch in a resist such as Scarf Shandera. That's when you Butterfly Dance as they break your sash, then Baton Pass into a Fire resist. Passing a BD to a DrizzleToed is a pretty effective way to get your weather going and possibly a mini-sweep.
Oftentimes my opponent will switch in a resist such as Scarf Shandera. That's when you Butterfly Dance as they break your sash, then Baton Pass into a Fire resist. Passing a BD to a DrizzleToed is a pretty effective way to get your weather going and possibly a mini-sweep.
if you want to run a bp set you should use compound eyes and forget about attacking for the most part
Lum/CompoundEyes
Bug Buzz/ButterflyDance/Baton Pass/Sleep Powder.
It's still a passing set that can also deal with impatient Ditto users. All they can do is smack you with a resisted Bug Buzz that won't do jack shit, pass the boosts before you do, or try to Sleep you. If they go for the last option, Lum wakes you up, you can Sleep Ditto. Countersweep averted, you pass off.
Even in the hard-hitting world of OU, I think Venomoth can be a dangerous underdog, often in tandem with a powerful Special Attacker in the wings (my favorite is fellow underdog, Encourage Nidoking).
Timid 252 HP/252 Speed spread @ Leftovers can actually switch into a lot of the weaker support Pokemon in the tier (bulky waters like Tentacruel, Burungeru, Vaporeon especially) and start dancing. People underestimate the SpDef boost of Butterfly Dance, and will sometimes stay in a turn setting up or attacking. This lets Venomoth grab that critical extra Butterfly Dance (in tandem with Sleep Powder) that can help the Baton Pass recipient in for free.
In a clutch, Venomoth can also switch into Breloom and scare it off, or other fighters (it'll usually have to blow its Sleep Powder though, because Rock attacks kill it).
Fact is, Venomoth usually has the bulk to take one non-super-effective hit, letting it toss in another Dance and a Sleep Powder. Shouldn't be discounted.
Timid 252 HP/252 Speed spread @ Leftovers can actually switch into a lot of the weaker support Pokemon in the tier (bulky waters like Tentacruel, Burungeru, Vaporeon especially) and start dancing. People underestimate the SpDef boost of Butterfly Dance, and will sometimes stay in a turn setting up or attacking. This lets Venomoth grab that critical extra Butterfly Dance (in tandem with Sleep Powder) that can help the Baton Pass recipient in for free.
In a clutch, Venomoth can also switch into Breloom and scare it off, or other fighters (it'll usually have to blow its Sleep Powder though, because Rock attacks kill it).
Fact is, Venomoth usually has the bulk to take one non-super-effective hit, letting it toss in another Dance and a Sleep Powder. Shouldn't be discounted.
Cooky
Banned deucer.
Nidoking isn't the greatest primary Baton Pass reciever, he only resists one of Venomoth's multiple weaknesses (granted, Mach Punch resistance is nice for a sweeper) so is unlikely to get in unscathed. Something more apt in terms of defensive synergy would be LO Heatran who boasts better special attacking prowess (Encourage boost gives Nidoking the rough equivalent of only 125 SpA), is less vulnerable to common Scarfers such as Jirachi / Sazandora, has much better synergy in boasting resistances / immunity to 3/4 of Venomoth's weaknesses and is much bulkier. Also Heatran can OHKO Salamence with a +1 LO Fire Blast after SR which is pretty damn cool.
Just a suggestion though.
Just a suggestion though.
Not really. There are a surprising number of things that can't hurt Venomoth, allowing it to dance at least once and then sleep whatever counter they bring in, allowing you to dance again and pass (greed can kill venomoth). Defensive water types are a good example. Venomoth will often be faster, meaning it can dance and raise its special defense before they attack. If they switch to a counter, you will likely be faster after a dance, allowing you to use sleep powder. It's also immune to toxic and doesn't care about burn (two statuses the more common waters often carry).
I'm not saying it's a beast in OU or anything - it actually failed miserably there in my experience - but if this thing is legal in UU I think it will be top-tier considering how most of its counters are currently OU according to the last usage count. Bug/Poison doesn't exactly work wonders for your resistance synergy either.
I found Sazandora to be the most effective recipient in my time testing this bug. It resists fire and is immune to ground and psychic, and also has high special attack with a vast movepool, and middling speed (perfect for butterfly dance). Sazandora also has the movepool to wreck the stuff that 4X resist bug buzz (Fire Blast for Skarmory/Luke, Surf for Infernape/Heatran, Dark Pulse for Gengar). Of course, Sazandora will most likely not end up in the same tier as Venomoth. I can't wait for UU to come around so I can start testing recipients there.
Speaking of ground, I found that Venomoth's apparent inability to fly (wtf gamefreak) really hurt Heatran's ability to be a recipient. Earthquake wrecks Venomoth; staring down something that could quake when you're about to pass to Heatran really sucks. Don't mention Balloon, it's a pitiful item for a sweeper.
Added a Baton Pass set.
I personally prefer having another attack move on Venomoth as opposed to the inaccurate Sleep Powder. Venomoth can come in on a special attacker he resists, which is surprisingly easy, and just dance away on the switch. I think that the fact that pretty much every counter someone has listed has been former OU material is a testament to Venomoth's potential lethality. Also, they can be played around with the appropriate teammate. For example, Starmie takes down Heatran, Infernape, Gengar, and Skarmory with relative ease (and Gengar can be taken down with Venomoth's own Psychic if he expects you to Baton Pass).
Ulgamoth outclasses Venomoth in every stat (save for a useless Attack stat), but he is also burdened with shitty STAB coverage, an ability that pales in comparison to Tinted Lens, and an attacking movepool that makes Venomoth's look like Mew's.
I am very hopeful for Venomoth this gen. I personally will definitely be using him.
I personally prefer having another attack move on Venomoth as opposed to the inaccurate Sleep Powder. Venomoth can come in on a special attacker he resists, which is surprisingly easy, and just dance away on the switch. I think that the fact that pretty much every counter someone has listed has been former OU material is a testament to Venomoth's potential lethality. Also, they can be played around with the appropriate teammate. For example, Starmie takes down Heatran, Infernape, Gengar, and Skarmory with relative ease (and Gengar can be taken down with Venomoth's own Psychic if he expects you to Baton Pass).
Ulgamoth outclasses Venomoth in every stat (save for a useless Attack stat), but he is also burdened with shitty STAB coverage, an ability that pales in comparison to Tinted Lens, and an attacking movepool that makes Venomoth's look like Mew's.
I am very hopeful for Venomoth this gen. I personally will definitely be using him.
Venemoth is currently OU on PO and for a good reason. Shove it in lead spot (or switch in on something slower), sleep it, butterfly dance 1-2 times and you're set. You only need to watch out for scizor's bpunch. I started running a metal reduce berry for it since it is so common and it has worked out well.
Tl;dr: 1/2 the time, get veno in on something slow and it is 6-0 for you
Tl;dr: 1/2 the time, get veno in on something slow and it is 6-0 for you
Babiri Berry doesn't reduce the damage from Steel-type moves unless you're actually weak to Steel.
tehy
Banned deucer.
A few things:
Firstly, sazandora has to be a crazy good receiver, with the stats and the movepool to pull it off beautifully.
Secondly;heatran and sazandora are NOT common scarfers.
Finally;it seems like people are not using compoundeyes venomoth;and i'm confused as to why. Having tinted lens doesn't seem like it removes any major bars-things like skarmory and tran still comfortably lol at you, and of course blisseys and such don''t care. Can someone explain why what's basically a spore is being thrown aside for tinted lens?
Firstly, sazandora has to be a crazy good receiver, with the stats and the movepool to pull it off beautifully.
Secondly;heatran and sazandora are NOT common scarfers.
Finally;it seems like people are not using compoundeyes venomoth;and i'm confused as to why. Having tinted lens doesn't seem like it removes any major bars-things like skarmory and tran still comfortably lol at you, and of course blisseys and such don''t care. Can someone explain why what's basically a spore is being thrown aside for tinted lens?
WHAT????
All the berries except for Normal only work on Super Effective damage.
LoL you have been wasting a item slot this whole time.