By setting up, I meant Riolu would be able to take a hit from them with the right investment and start its Phazing.
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Theorymon Sessions
- Thread starter jake
- Start date
- Status
I dunno how important being weak to fighting would be for priolu. Even without a steel typing, it probably doesn't like setting up on Sawk, and the only real user of mach punch that I can think of is Gurdurr, who pretty much never runs speed investment. Being weak to Earthquake would suck, though, since damn near every physical attacker who can run it does.
What Leech Seeders are common in NU?
All I can think of off the top of my head are Tangela, Torterra, Jumpluff, Serperior and Eggy, and it's only really a common move on two of those.
All I can think of off the top of my head are Tangela, Torterra, Jumpluff, Serperior and Eggy, and it's only really a common move on two of those.
I personally like to run it on Roselia too, screws poison types over (do run Sludge Bomb as your attacking move then or you'll be walled by any grass type). I wouldn't say it's common though, I wouldn't even say it's the better option, it's just that it works alright on stall and I wanted to do something different, heh.
Vileplume always runs Leech Seed and is good defensive user of it too. Meganium also uses it well but he's not common.
While it gains a whole ton of useful resistances, the lack of Steel typing for Riolu does still do it favors right now. This is because most pokemon that are Ground-type or Fighting-type or use Earthquake usually don't pack any status moves, such as Golurk, Golem, Piloswine, Gurdurr, Primeape, Sawk, Probopass, Pinsir, and Scolipede, meaning Riolu can often take their attack head on without being too crippled and start phazing. The immunity to poison and loss of its Psychic weakness is admittedly handy, but it loses quite a lot of setup fodder by gaining weaknesses to Ground and Fighting. I don't think it gains a whole lot of other setup fodder than before to make up for this (aside from handling Kangaskhan and Skuntank much easier), because in most cases Riolu can already phaze them or they would trouble Riolu regardless thanks to their coverage move.
what if lampent and serperior's dream world abilities were released now?
serperior would probably be banned, because there's not much that can stop it. it would overcentralize the meta, forcing people to use mediocre stuff such as spdef sap sipper miltank and sap sipper zeb (and deer but that's not mediocre). ACTUALLY IT CAN BEAT SAP SIPPER MONS WITH GASTRO ACID. GG BROKEN
st lampent would be pretty cool because it has a great typing with high bp moves to hit hard but i'll miss the fire-type immunity that comes with flash fire. it can run an otr set with dual stabs + energy ball, cm set, support set and other stuff that i'm probably missing. people will have to be wary when using fighting-types (gurdurr might see zero use ]:), and it can even run AIR BALLOON to beat sawk who are using earthquake.
serperior would probably be banned, because there's not much that can stop it. it would overcentralize the meta, forcing people to use mediocre stuff such as spdef sap sipper miltank and sap sipper zeb (and deer but that's not mediocre). ACTUALLY IT CAN BEAT SAP SIPPER MONS WITH GASTRO ACID. GG BROKEN
st lampent would be pretty cool because it has a great typing with high bp moves to hit hard but i'll miss the fire-type immunity that comes with flash fire. it can run an otr set with dual stabs + energy ball, cm set, support set and other stuff that i'm probably missing. people will have to be wary when using fighting-types (gurdurr might see zero use ]:), and it can even run AIR BALLOON to beat sawk who are using earthquake.
What if Wonder Guard prevented damage and effects from non-super effective moves?
What this means is that literally only 5 types of all moves (Fire, Rock, Flying, Ghost and Dark) can actually work on Shedinja, as opposed to simply not doing direct damage. This means Shedinja would not affected by stuff like poison, Leech Seed, Spikes, Swagger (still affected by Confuse Ray) and obscure things like Gastro Acid, Soak and Hail. Stealth Rock and Sandstorm would still kill it though to balance it out just a bit, but now it can actually wall stuff due to its new immunities to various status moves that it did not have before.
What this means is that literally only 5 types of all moves (Fire, Rock, Flying, Ghost and Dark) can actually work on Shedinja, as opposed to simply not doing direct damage. This means Shedinja would not affected by stuff like poison, Leech Seed, Spikes, Swagger (still affected by Confuse Ray) and obscure things like Gastro Acid, Soak and Hail. Stealth Rock and Sandstorm would still kill it though to balance it out just a bit, but now it can actually wall stuff due to its new immunities to various status moves that it did not have before.
Isn't Sandstorm a Ground move? That would mean Shedinja would be immune to it as well.
Will-O-Wisp would still shatter it, so Misdreavus would work pretty well for messing it up, as would anything with Pursuit. It could be annoying, but I don't think it'd impact that much - if your team isn't Shedinja weak now, chances are it still wouldn't be.
Will-O-Wisp would still shatter it, so Misdreavus would work pretty well for messing it up, as would anything with Pursuit. It could be annoying, but I don't think it'd impact that much - if your team isn't Shedinja weak now, chances are it still wouldn't be.
No Sandstorm is a rock type move.
I've got another one though; What if Shedinja got Rapid Spin and Heal Bell?
This is essentially doing the same as Punchshroom's idea except it makes Shedinja quite an interesting cleric and rapid spin supporter. Rapid Spin gets rid of Leech Seed, and Heal Bell of course gets rid of the rest of the status' but having two moves taken up on a set would be unfavourable. What do you guys think?
I've got another one though; What if Shedinja got Rapid Spin and Heal Bell?
This is essentially doing the same as Punchshroom's idea except it makes Shedinja quite an interesting cleric and rapid spin supporter. Rapid Spin gets rid of Leech Seed, and Heal Bell of course gets rid of the rest of the status' but having two moves taken up on a set would be unfavourable. What do you guys think?
Rapid spin would be an awful, awful move on Shedinja, seeing as every entry hazard KOs it on the switch in. Heal Bell is an amusing idea, but ultimately, there would be far more reliable users, and it wouldn't have much utility for Shedinja itself- since burn and poison both KO the turn they're used, the only way to survive would be to use it the same turn that they used toxic or will o wisp, and Heal Bell has fewer PP than every other status move that I can think of.
Those 2 moves are virtually worthless on Shedinja unless you also account for my Wonder Guard suggestion. Even then, SR KOes it before the spin and any effective status or Leech Seed will KO it before the Heal Bell or Spin respectively. Unless you're slower, meaning you'd would have to spam those moves just to survive. Oh, and spinning is terribad on Sheddy due to all spinblockers outspeeding it, forcing you to predict their switch. Maybe if it had more HP then Heal Bell would actually work.
Alright, here's a thought.
What if Samurott received Mold Breaker?
Mold Breaker seems to be given out pretty indiscriminately, so it's not much of a stretch. Nonetheless, I think this would be a huge boost to Samurott's viability. Water types already tend to make good anti-leads, since most Stealth Rock users are either Rock or Ground, but they still can't do much about users of Sturdy. With Mold Breaker, (special) Samurott would have the ability to KO virtually every common lead with minimal hassle- here are some calcs.
tl;dr- Samurott would KO or cripple pretty much every relevant lead out there.
The best part, though? Special Samurott has somewhat declined in popularity as of recent times, due to the presence of one particular mon that can switch in on its STAB with impunity. But Mold Breaker would change all of that-
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 234-277 (85.71 - 101.46%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And, of course, a Modest nature would go a long way towards guaranteeing those KOs, and is somewhat more defensible if you want to use Samurott as a dedicated anti-lead, rather than as a sweeper.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
What if Samurott received Mold Breaker?
Mold Breaker seems to be given out pretty indiscriminately, so it's not much of a stretch. Nonetheless, I think this would be a huge boost to Samurott's viability. Water types already tend to make good anti-leads, since most Stealth Rock users are either Rock or Ground, but they still can't do much about users of Sturdy. With Mold Breaker, (special) Samurott would have the ability to KO virtually every common lead with minimal hassle- here are some calcs.
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 176 HP / 0 SpD Golurk: 541-640 (149.03 - 176.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 1279-1503 (361.29 - 424.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Armaldo: 538-634 (151.97 - 179.09%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 452-533 (111.88 - 131.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 411-489 (102.49 - 121.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it does miss the KO against Specially Defensive variants, though)
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bastiodon: 283-335 (87.34 - 103.39%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 304-359 (116.03 - 137.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 322-382 (88.46 - 104.94%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 212 HP / 0 SpD Golem: 1279-1503 (361.29 - 424.57%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Armaldo: 538-634 (151.97 - 179.09%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 452-533 (111.88 - 131.93%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hidden Power Grass vs. 200 HP / 56 SpD Seismitoad: 411-489 (102.49 - 121.94%) -- guaranteed OHKO (it does miss the KO against Specially Defensive variants, though)
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Bastiodon: 283-335 (87.34 - 103.39%) -- 18.75% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Scolipede: 304-359 (116.03 - 137.02%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Regirock: 322-382 (88.46 - 104.94%) -- 31.25% chance to OHKO
tl;dr- Samurott would KO or cripple pretty much every relevant lead out there.
The best part, though? Special Samurott has somewhat declined in popularity as of recent times, due to the presence of one particular mon that can switch in on its STAB with impunity. But Mold Breaker would change all of that-
252 SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 234-277 (85.71 - 101.46%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO
And, of course, a Modest nature would go a long way towards guaranteeing those KOs, and is somewhat more defensible if you want to use Samurott as a dedicated anti-lead, rather than as a sweeper.
Anyways, what do you guys think?
Thing is, Samurott already gets Taunt to stop Sturdy leads and SDef Seismitoad, so while Mold Breaker does boost its viability with Hydro Spam, anti-leading is not something it couldn't accomplish well before.
True. Nonetheless, going for the taunt certainly has the potential to end rather poorly for you, should your opponent predict it-
252+ Atk Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott: 183-216 (55.28 - 65.25%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
I would absolutely love that. Though it already stops Seismitoad from putting up rocks, I think there's another effect to consider...
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Seismitoad: 220-259 (53.14 - 62.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 309-367 (88.03 - 104.55%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 257-304 (94.13 - 111.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 186-219 (65.95 - 77.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Maractus: 170-201 (48.02 - 56.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And, though it doesn't net many more guaranteed KOs, the ability to spam water moves despite the presence of a Mantine or whatever (since it'll still deal pretty good damage) is pretty handy.
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Seismitoad: 220-259 (53.14 - 62.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Seismitoad: 309-367 (88.03 - 104.55%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 8 HP / 0 SpD Jynx: 257-304 (94.13 - 111.35%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 186-219 (65.95 - 77.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Samurott Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Maractus: 170-201 (48.02 - 56.77%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
And, though it doesn't net many more guaranteed KOs, the ability to spam water moves despite the presence of a Mantine or whatever (since it'll still deal pretty good damage) is pretty handy.
I like this subject. Isn't as clearcut as some other theorymonning.
Mold Breaker Life Orb Samurott would be pretty nifty, but I'm wondering, would you guys still use Mold Breaker on the Swords Dance set? Torrent is a very important part of Samurott's sweeping capabilities, as with it, you can tank a hit while setting up, and then potentially get knocked down to bellow 33% which makes the power of your Aqua Jet skyrocket. Mold Breaker, of course, allows Samurott to OHKO Golem, beat Jynx, and hit fast Seismitoad with Aqua Jet, or bulky Seismitoad with a 100% accurate move. Samurott can tank a hit from Jynx, but being able to KO it before it can attack with Aqua Jet is great. It's quite the tossup, but I'd probably go with Torrent in the end.
Torrent is also nice on special attacking Samurott, as those 33% Hydro Pumps are just devasting nukes. I'd be more inclined to use Mold Breaker on this Samurott because it's less dependent on setting up, which makes it less likely for it to be knocked under 33% health, and best case scenario it will die after 3-4 Hydro Pumps anyways. It's still a tossup between Mold Breaker and Torrent, though, as Mold Breaker isn't that great for Samurott.
Mold Breaker Life Orb Samurott would be pretty nifty, but I'm wondering, would you guys still use Mold Breaker on the Swords Dance set? Torrent is a very important part of Samurott's sweeping capabilities, as with it, you can tank a hit while setting up, and then potentially get knocked down to bellow 33% which makes the power of your Aqua Jet skyrocket. Mold Breaker, of course, allows Samurott to OHKO Golem, beat Jynx, and hit fast Seismitoad with Aqua Jet, or bulky Seismitoad with a 100% accurate move. Samurott can tank a hit from Jynx, but being able to KO it before it can attack with Aqua Jet is great. It's quite the tossup, but I'd probably go with Torrent in the end.
Torrent is also nice on special attacking Samurott, as those 33% Hydro Pumps are just devasting nukes. I'd be more inclined to use Mold Breaker on this Samurott because it's less dependent on setting up, which makes it less likely for it to be knocked under 33% health, and best case scenario it will die after 3-4 Hydro Pumps anyways. It's still a tossup between Mold Breaker and Torrent, though, as Mold Breaker isn't that great for Samurott.
I think that Mold Breaker Samurott would be great!Don't have to taunt Bastiodon,Probopass,not taking Golem to Custap,Jynx walling you and have to use mixed Samurott with Megahorn and Seismitoad kicking your butt if your opponent predicts your taunt! ;)
Now on from me ;p What if Serperior got Shed Skin?
Well,this is what makes Arbok survive longer..But Serperior is a snake too and it doesnt get it..Also Serperior has more speed and more special bulk (95 sp.Defense) so a Coil set with Max HP and Max Sp.Defense and with Rest could be great for a late game sweeper! ;)
Now on from me ;p What if Serperior got Shed Skin?
Well,this is what makes Arbok survive longer..But Serperior is a snake too and it doesnt get it..Also Serperior has more speed and more special bulk (95 sp.Defense) so a Coil set with Max HP and Max Sp.Defense and with Rest could be great for a late game sweeper! ;)
Last edited:
One more from me. What if Exploud got Sheer Force?
So what that means Exploud will become a special beast with Fire blast,Ice beam,Thunderbolt,Extrasensory,Focus Blast,Shadow Ball or a physical sweeper with Rock Slide,Fire Punch or Thunder Punch..
So what that means Exploud will become a special beast with Fire blast,Ice beam,Thunderbolt,Extrasensory,Focus Blast,Shadow Ball or a physical sweeper with Rock Slide,Fire Punch or Thunder Punch..
This idea does sound really cool, but I don't think I'd use Shed Skin Serperior over the current SubCM set it uses. A physical set does already exist for Serperior, but it uses the same sort of strategy as the SubCM which is to set up a Sub, boost with Coil, hit with Grass STAB, and possibly gain an Overgrow boost after a few more Subs. The only difference between the Coil and CM set in their generally strategy is the Coil set's Dragon Tail which just phazes things out that break Serp's Sub. Shed Skin wouldn't really help Serp anymore with status as it already sets up fast Subs to avoid status anyway. I don't see Serp having any room for Rest on the Physical set either, so I really don't think it'd help much in the long run. Serp's physical movepool is a lot less useful than its Special one anyway. The SubCM set gets better coverage and even recovery with Giga Drain and Hidden Power Rock. Shed Skin definitely fits in flavor-wise, Garchomp, but I don't see it changing much for Serperior in the current meta.
- Status