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SwagPlay, evaluating potential bans (basic definition of "uncompetitive" in OP)
- Thread starter haunter
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It's like you think I care about who responds to me or whether I get responses.
I also mentioned Espeon, same as half the people in this thread providing solid points for one side or the other.
Be creative.
I don't mind confusion I don't mind paralysis and I don't mind prankster. I just hate when they are used all together. I believe this should be banned along the same lines of double team, sand attack, etc. It is entirely luck based and it sort of ruins the game. I vote the complex ban.
I agree with all of your posts and adding to that there are Pokemon with other abilities that counter the strategy. Magic Guard, Synchronize (Not a full counter but it hurts them), a cleric, etc.
You dont need some stupid ass list. Prankster Taunt mons are obvious but literally any team with the ability to switch freely can win.
Actually, they're not 100% because of Swagger. Thundurus is the "safest", but you can be caught with a predicted Swagger on the switch. Magic Coat can also be PP-stalled, and Sableye can priority-taunt Deo-D.
The magic bouncers could be added to here, but again, they're not 100%-counters. Foul Play does a number on them, even Absol because it usually is physically biased and has low defence. STAB turns these into 2HKO's, as I've mentioned before.
EDIT: Oh hey, 500th post. OH FRABJOUS DAY
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And not everything can be countered 100%. That's the beauty of Pokemon, where you take what you have and make the plays to get the upperhand.
Balsty
I'm getting sick and tired of you just calling everyone either unskilled or stupid or whatever post #462 called us.
There's no "skillful" way to counter swag play. You either have a thunderus, or play guessing games with Espeon, or pray you get lucky.
If a Klefki is in play, I have to predict if my opponent will predict a switch in with Espeon. Usually they don't cuz skilled players rarely use Klefki and Espeon KO's him pretty easy. If he does, and I do switch, Espeon loses almost half its health. I can't stay in because if I did he'd die in 2 turns, but I can't switch out or some poor pokemon on my team would have to deal with the Keys.
Those are 2 pokemon that can handle Klefki, and one relies on me having superior prediction skills to my opponent. Since I fully expect the "Git Gud" crap, I'll go ahead and let you have those 2, but those are the only 2 in OU that reliably work.
Besides Thunduros (IDC about spelling) and Espeon (sort of), I don't see what the heck people are talking about with "counters"
I'm getting sick and tired of you just calling everyone either unskilled or stupid or whatever post #462 called us.
There's no "skillful" way to counter swag play. You either have a thunderus, or play guessing games with Espeon, or pray you get lucky.
If a Klefki is in play, I have to predict if my opponent will predict a switch in with Espeon. Usually they don't cuz skilled players rarely use Klefki and Espeon KO's him pretty easy. If he does, and I do switch, Espeon loses almost half its health. I can't stay in because if I did he'd die in 2 turns, but I can't switch out or some poor pokemon on my team would have to deal with the Keys.
Those are 2 pokemon that can handle Klefki, and one relies on me having superior prediction skills to my opponent. Since I fully expect the "Git Gud" crap, I'll go ahead and let you have those 2, but those are the only 2 in OU that reliably work.
What a bunch of bull. The gimmicks should be deleted, Rotom should be "iffy" because there's always a chance it could hit itself in confusion over and over and over, and Deoxys can played around by alternating Foul play with swagger. My money's almost always on Klefki.
Besides Thunduros (IDC about spelling) and Espeon (sort of), I don't see what the heck people are talking about with "counters"
But it is a numel.
THE_IRON_...KENYAN?
Banned deucer.
not to mention that you can just mega evo into a camerupt while in battle, taking away any argument LC could make about this strategy
The first part is correct, but Espeon?
0 Atk Klefki Foul Play vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Espeon: 106-126 (38.9 - 46.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
No, Espeon can't do shit in return.
But how is Gliscor iffy, at least against Purloin, Liepard, and Klefki.
+2 0 Atk Gliscor Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Liepard: 357-421 (107.8 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 8 Atk Liepard Foul Play vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Gliscor: 127-150 (35.8 - 42.3%) -- 93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
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It is really risky to do SwagPlay on Gliscor, especially since it can attack once its confusion has worn off.
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Most Clerics and Fairies are nice counters to SwagPlay.
Still, it is annoying to face multiple users on a team.
He was saying HP fire, and I just didn't feel like arguing
With this menacing combination terrifying OverUsed and bringing many Pokemon down to their knees in fear, there is only one Pokemon that will rise above all others to put an end to the reign of the fearsome combination known as SwagPlay. This Pokemon can not only take Thunder Waves like nobody's business, but also does not worry about the confusion brought about by the most worrisome of moves - Swagger. Only one Pokemon is able to achieve this noble task. While this Pokemon may be frowned upon for being "small" or "weak", there is no denying that has the tools it needs to combat the menace, and free OverUsed from the tyrannical reign.
use numel
use numel
252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Klefki: 104-124 (32.7 - 38.9%) -- 9.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Espeon Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki: 148-176 (46.5 - 55.3%) -- 14.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
If you hit it on the switch, then you lose your Espeon in the process.
This is just a crazy thought. But there is another factor here causing a problem. Duplicate leftovers.
If duplicate items weren't allowed, would this be such a problem?
If duplicate items weren't allowed, would this be such a problem?
hence the guessing games. Espeon will 3HKO faster, but needs a safe switch in.
By that logic let's ban Thunder Wave, Glare, Stun Spore and any other Paralysis moves not only have a chance of preventing Pokemon from attacking, but it also slows the Pokemon's speed too, making it an equally big luck mess! Even worse, Paralysis doesn't wear off!
No disrespect to Thorhammer or anyone else here, but I feel this thread is slowly evolving into a realm that drains the sanity from normally sane people.
Arguments have been made on both sides. Please lock this thread before I got kill myself from this ridiculousness.
EDIT: Seriously, fuck all of the people doing this Numel bullshit. You know it's not competitive whatsoever and are just doing it for the troll factor. Go post something intelligent in another thread.
The thing about PranksterSwag is not just that it's luck based. Like others said, critical hits, missed attacks, etc are also luck based. Luck is everywhere in this game, and that's not a bad thing. But even with all of these things, Pokemon is still a game of strategy with some elements of luck, not the opposite.
The problem is that PranksterSwag takes the luck to an extreme where it becomes the game itelf. It becomes a game of chance with a few elements of strategy, which is not what a competitive game like this should be. Not only that, but it turns luck into a weapon. The user of the strategy can turn the match into a coin flip, damage the enemy pokemon from failing the coin flip and using its stat boosts to deal more damage. It's luck turned into something that works in the user's favor. The same can be said about Double Team and OHKO moves. They turn luck from an eventual thing into the main element of the game.
Can it be countered? Of course. As mentioned in this thread, there are a few pokemon that can either shut down or give a hard time for PranksterSwag teams. I've been laddering with one of these, and I run into them all the time. But first, most of them can be out-countered (using Toxic instead of Thunder Wave on walls, spamming foul play on espeon, running deoxys-D to spam hazards and prevent PP stalling, etc). And second, PranksterSwag isn't THAT common of a strategy, I'd say it accounts for less than 5% of the teams I meet in the ladder. So if I'm forced to run a dedicated pokemon, item, or move just to counter it, making my team less effective against everything else in the process, then it's overcentralizing and just reduces the quality of teambuilding. And even if the counter I'm running is viable (such as Espeon), the fact I'm forced to run them on all teams is also very overcentralizing. But if you decide it's not worth to make your team weaker against most opponents just to counter some PranksterSwag teams, then get ready to face roullete games every time you meet one, or forfeit and let them have your ELO.
It's a lose lose situation, that works by blackmailing the player into preparing for a niche if he doesn't want to have his fun ruined and his competition turned into a slot machine every time he meets a confusion team. And even if the counter works, it's probably not going to be fun, because PP stalling or trying to wall the Prankster while being confused is not fun.
So my opinion is that we should ban the Prankster + Confusion Move combination (just to make sure something with Confuse Ray can't use it). Any pokemon with the ability Prankster shouldn't be able to run Confuse Ray, Swagger, or other non-damaging Confusion moves.
The problem is that PranksterSwag takes the luck to an extreme where it becomes the game itelf. It becomes a game of chance with a few elements of strategy, which is not what a competitive game like this should be. Not only that, but it turns luck into a weapon. The user of the strategy can turn the match into a coin flip, damage the enemy pokemon from failing the coin flip and using its stat boosts to deal more damage. It's luck turned into something that works in the user's favor. The same can be said about Double Team and OHKO moves. They turn luck from an eventual thing into the main element of the game.
Can it be countered? Of course. As mentioned in this thread, there are a few pokemon that can either shut down or give a hard time for PranksterSwag teams. I've been laddering with one of these, and I run into them all the time. But first, most of them can be out-countered (using Toxic instead of Thunder Wave on walls, spamming foul play on espeon, running deoxys-D to spam hazards and prevent PP stalling, etc). And second, PranksterSwag isn't THAT common of a strategy, I'd say it accounts for less than 5% of the teams I meet in the ladder. So if I'm forced to run a dedicated pokemon, item, or move just to counter it, making my team less effective against everything else in the process, then it's overcentralizing and just reduces the quality of teambuilding. And even if the counter I'm running is viable (such as Espeon), the fact I'm forced to run them on all teams is also very overcentralizing. But if you decide it's not worth to make your team weaker against most opponents just to counter some PranksterSwag teams, then get ready to face roullete games every time you meet one, or forfeit and let them have your ELO.
It's a lose lose situation, that works by blackmailing the player into preparing for a niche if he doesn't want to have his fun ruined and his competition turned into a slot machine every time he meets a confusion team. And even if the counter works, it's probably not going to be fun, because PP stalling or trying to wall the Prankster while being confused is not fun.
So my opinion is that we should ban the Prankster + Confusion Move combination (just to make sure something with Confuse Ray can't use it). Any pokemon with the ability Prankster shouldn't be able to run Confuse Ray, Swagger, or other non-damaging Confusion moves.
Monte Cristo
Banned deucer.
Saying you don't already use numel is like saying 'I'm Satin'
how could you not use the best poke in the meta, come on gais
how could you not use the best poke in the meta, come on gais
Not Canadian
always start with a bang
Hence the Doubles suspect test on Sleep Clause. Personally, I find it ironic that we have that and then on the other hand we have SwagPlay banning discussion.
From personal experience, I don't encounter many SwagPlay users, but as a lot of people have already said, they're not airtight strategies, and they certainly have checks and counters. They also fall flat on their faces against defensive teams or people who can predict/switch well. I would count SwagPlay as overcentralizing the meta if almost every team I came across had some sort of specific check/counter to it (or a SwagPlay user), but that doesn't seem to be the case.
Opting to ban Pokemon is right out -- that just pulls good support cores out for luck-based bollockry that not even everyone ascribes to, and banning just Swagger is, to me, a bit too discriminative, seeing as Swagger is almost always used exclusively in OU with Prankster. If you're going to ban anything at all, make it a complex ban.
tl;dr: complex ban - Swagger + Prankster
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