I mean, Baton Pass Flareon certainly isnt broken, yet the move is banned.
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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well let's calc some things to see if last respects basculin with tera ghost is op I guess or test it when it releases.
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Yeah no this thing is broken af, I just don't want to QB too many things.
Like if we ban Mage, then we won't know if AV Mage could handle Flutter- like can broken check broken or not.
In the case of Cheese-Yu, I'll change my stance on it, and wouldn't be mad about a QB.
It literally was S-tier UU b4 grassy glide
Thing with something like Gorilla Tactics is it's impossible to ever prove as broken in isolation when stuff like Huge Power is objectively better. But yeah its on a mon with 140 attack and amazing coverage and made it broken.
That's why its so hard to actually prove abilities/moves are broken in isolation because even broken ones could not be broken on a pokemon if they lack enough in another areas like Thousand Arrows, Fishious Rend, Rage Fist etc.
So last respects caps at a 5050 base power with revival blessing synergy apparently since last respects takes revived pokemon who have fainted into account.
Also funny basculin calc that may help prove last respects is broken as shit at 300 base power with tera.
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin-White-Striped Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
And this is with adamant scarf basculin. Imagine how obscene it would become on revival blessing teams. If these things don't show basculin with last respects is broken, I don't know what does
Also funny basculin calc that may help prove last respects is broken as shit at 300 base power with tera.
252+ Atk Adaptability Tera Ghost Basculin-White-Striped Last Respects vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 302-356 (99.3 - 117.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
And this is with adamant scarf basculin. Imagine how obscene it would become on revival blessing teams. If these things don't show basculin with last respects is broken, I don't know what does
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/scald.3541817/
It is old, but even back then people realized how bad competitively the move is. Being able to toss out sheer cold level chances to change the game isnt skill. Like Espathra, you can maneuver around it, but its still Espathra at the end of the day. Your eyes are burning, and it got the chance it needs, and because of one 30% chance, the game is over.
I hope it isnt learnable through HOME
A really good example of this is annihilape in the current meta. Rage fist is the reason why annihilape is banned, but rather than banning the move they banned the mon. Primeape has been proven to be pretty decent but manageable with rage fist, proving this theorem. Rage fist is not broken, annihilape with rage fist however is broken. I'm pretty sure (and I think everyone else is too) that basculegion will be broken with last respects and so hopefully the move gets banned as the move is likely the culprit in this scenario.
What? I thought it was RU in Gen 8 before Glassy Glide. My bad.
WIth grassy surge it was S tier in uu for a brief time
I thought you guys said you were banning Last Respects, and not Basculegion/Houndstone?
Per Bulbapedia
So the move exists, and simply doesn't have a legal learner as of now (guess it's slow to transition from Tutor only), which means it might be eligible to transfer a knowing mon up.
If your team falls apart because of one 30% scald burn, no offense, then your team wasn't well put together. It isn't scald's fault. Plenty of people will keep playing in spite of physical attackers getting burned because they can win other ways.
I did not expect a Pokemon Home release date to drop while I was asleep, nor did I expect it to drop so soon - so I guess I'll throw my hat into the ring on this. I'll make my opinions straightforward here - Unban, Unban Cautiously, Ban, Abstain.
Annihilape - (Unban Cautiously)
With the influx of new threats, higher power level, and varying move options, I think the meta could adjust to Annihilape... could being the operative word here. What worries me more is how playstyles are invalidated because of Annihilape and whether or not that would be healthy for the meta, even with the new options and higher power level available. So I'm for letting it roam OU again, but wouldn't be surprised if it was suspected again in the future.
Basculegion - (Abstain)
I think most of us here understand that Last Respects is what will really push Basculegion into Uber territory, so I'll avoid commentary until it's decided what we're all going to do about Last Respects as a move.
Chi-Yu - (Unban Cautiously)
Chi-Yu was one of those Pokemon that just naturally exerts offensive pressure even on supposed checks, it has a fantastic type combination, a wonderful Special Attack stat, and (what pushes it over the edge) a monstrous ability. I think it should be tested just in case the meta has adjusted to it, but I don't see it staying very long.
Chien-Pao - (Unban)
This is one of the few Pokemon I semi-confidently feel will be manageable enough to stay in OU in my opinion. We're getting quite a few threats that I feel will be able to handle Chien-Pao and it'll definitely feel less centralizing than it once did. Time will tell though, Chien-Pao's ability is pretty nasty and does invalidate some serious checks.
Espathra - (Ban)
It's not that Espathra is outright broken or more powerful than a lot of the threats that might be released, it's got an analogous issue to Shaymin-Sky as to why it's frustrating - a lot of it comes down to aggressively frustrating speed and matchup luck. The meta would be actively worse with Espathra in it, and it's one of the few Pokemon on here that I really would not like suspected at all.
Flutter Mane - (Ban)
That STAB combination with those stats, coverage + utility options is still overwhelming - while it can be exploited, especially with the new options coming in, I don't think I can overstate just how deadly STAB Moonblast + STAB Shadow Ball coming off of a base 135 Special Attack stat with 135 base Speed backing it up is (not to mention Tera, Power Gem, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, and the myriad of other options it can run. A suspect of Flutter Mane feels pointless to me at the moment.
Houndstone (Abstain)
Same thing with Basculegion, I'll avoid commentary until it's decided what we're all going to do about Last Respects as a move.
Iron Bundle - (Ban)
Iron Bundle exerts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the meta simply by virtue of a speed stat that's even higher than Flutter Mane, Quark Drive to allow for even more shenanigans, and Tera further making things unpredictable. While I feel that it could potentially be worth suspecting upon the release of the DLC, Iron Bundle could potentially get even better with the threats returning from Pokemon Home thanks to a lot of synergistic partners and new targets that it can handle. So my vote is staying on ban for now, but I could be wrong.
Landorus (Incarnate) - (Ban)
This Pokemon is, without question, always going to be one of the most broken Pokemon on this list. Its typing, movepool, and stats are insane and it's heavily centralizing - keep it banned.
Magearna - (Unban Cautiously)
I feel that Magearna's presence could potentially be healthy for the meta - Steel/Fairy is an incredible typing, and would help certain threats feel a little more manageable. From what I understand as well (but I'm not 100% on this) Magearna received some movepool nerfs. I'm in favor of letting it roam when Pokemon Home drops, to see if it could feel healthy within the meta.
Palafin - (Unban Cautiously)
While Palafin definitely deserved to be suspected and banned previously, I don't think that it was "obscenely" broken as it was predictable to play around given the right circumstances. With the new Pokemon coming in from Pokemon Home, I feel that Palafin has a chance to be kept in check, and thus should be let out and watched carefully.
Regieleki - (Unban Cautiously)
To be honest, I'm personally not too worried about Regieleki, and I wasn't really worried about it back in Gen 8 either. Sure, it's a great Pokemon, but the only thing that has me worried about it is whether or not Tera will push it over the edge. However, I feel that its Tera-type choices will be very limited compared to many other options on this list. I would simply say "Unban" for it, but the degree of uncertainty that hangs over my head regarding what Tera means for it is what keeps the "cautiously" in my pick.
Spectrier - (Ban)
I thought about it for a while even before the announcement, and while I was initially leaning towards "unban cautiously", I'm ultimately going to say that Spectrier shouldn't be tested. My justification? Look at Calm Mind Hatterene with Draining Kiss. Spectrier also has these options but is much faster with STAB Shadow Ball as well. Sure it may not be bulky and has a harder time switching in, but it truly feels like a problem that the meta just isn't prepared to handle yet. Like with Flutter Mane, maybe it might be worth testing upon the DLC release, but not now.
Urshifu (Single Strike) - (Unban Cautiously)
Conversely to Spectrier, I was initially leaning towards "ban", no question. However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that Urshifu-Single Strike could potentially be healthy in the current meta. For one, it's the concrete Kingambit switch-in that everyone's been looking for, for two Pokemon such as Iron Valiant, defensive Hatterene and other threats scare it quite a bit, and three, it would sort of act as an "in-between" for Dark offense and justify the inclusion of more fairies to help with the current Dragon-type dominance in OU at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned if unleashed, but I still think it's worth a test.
Zacian - (Unban Cautiously)
Since it was mentioned above by a few users, I would be open to seeing Zacian suspected in OU. Its attack was nerfed to 120, and its movepool, while great, is still lacking some serious options and the tier needs more powerful Fairy-types as I mentioned earlier. If it had access to moves like Earthquake, it would likely be a different story, but Zacian suffers from 4MSS in many ways - especially on Swords Dance variants - having to rely on Tera if it wants to make up for this problem. I wouldn't be surprised about a ban, but I think it's worth testing.
Zamazenta / Zamazenta-Crowned (Unban Cautiously)
I was one of the biggest advocates for Zamazenta-Crowned's testing in OU in Gen 8, and I'll continue to vouch for it here - but I'll also vouch for testing regular Zamazenta as well. I feel that Zama-C would be a healthy Knock Off absorber, while Zama-normal would be a potentially fun, strong, albeit predictable Choice Band / Choice Scarf user. Definitely worth a test, but I also wouldn't be surprised if, like Gen 8, it would have the Gen 2 Celebi problem of just being really, really hard to wear down.
Annihilape - (Unban Cautiously)
With the influx of new threats, higher power level, and varying move options, I think the meta could adjust to Annihilape... could being the operative word here. What worries me more is how playstyles are invalidated because of Annihilape and whether or not that would be healthy for the meta, even with the new options and higher power level available. So I'm for letting it roam OU again, but wouldn't be surprised if it was suspected again in the future.
Basculegion - (Abstain)
I think most of us here understand that Last Respects is what will really push Basculegion into Uber territory, so I'll avoid commentary until it's decided what we're all going to do about Last Respects as a move.
Chi-Yu - (Unban Cautiously)
Chi-Yu was one of those Pokemon that just naturally exerts offensive pressure even on supposed checks, it has a fantastic type combination, a wonderful Special Attack stat, and (what pushes it over the edge) a monstrous ability. I think it should be tested just in case the meta has adjusted to it, but I don't see it staying very long.
Chien-Pao - (Unban)
This is one of the few Pokemon I semi-confidently feel will be manageable enough to stay in OU in my opinion. We're getting quite a few threats that I feel will be able to handle Chien-Pao and it'll definitely feel less centralizing than it once did. Time will tell though, Chien-Pao's ability is pretty nasty and does invalidate some serious checks.
Espathra - (Ban)
It's not that Espathra is outright broken or more powerful than a lot of the threats that might be released, it's got an analogous issue to Shaymin-Sky as to why it's frustrating - a lot of it comes down to aggressively frustrating speed and matchup luck. The meta would be actively worse with Espathra in it, and it's one of the few Pokemon on here that I really would not like suspected at all.
Flutter Mane - (Ban)
That STAB combination with those stats, coverage + utility options is still overwhelming - while it can be exploited, especially with the new options coming in, I don't think I can overstate just how deadly STAB Moonblast + STAB Shadow Ball coming off of a base 135 Special Attack stat with 135 base Speed backing it up is (not to mention Tera, Power Gem, Energy Ball, Thunderbolt, and the myriad of other options it can run. A suspect of Flutter Mane feels pointless to me at the moment.
Houndstone (Abstain)
Same thing with Basculegion, I'll avoid commentary until it's decided what we're all going to do about Last Respects as a move.
Iron Bundle - (Ban)
Iron Bundle exerts an unhealthy amount of pressure on the meta simply by virtue of a speed stat that's even higher than Flutter Mane, Quark Drive to allow for even more shenanigans, and Tera further making things unpredictable. While I feel that it could potentially be worth suspecting upon the release of the DLC, Iron Bundle could potentially get even better with the threats returning from Pokemon Home thanks to a lot of synergistic partners and new targets that it can handle. So my vote is staying on ban for now, but I could be wrong.
Landorus (Incarnate) - (Ban)
This Pokemon is, without question, always going to be one of the most broken Pokemon on this list. Its typing, movepool, and stats are insane and it's heavily centralizing - keep it banned.
Magearna - (Unban Cautiously)
I feel that Magearna's presence could potentially be healthy for the meta - Steel/Fairy is an incredible typing, and would help certain threats feel a little more manageable. From what I understand as well (but I'm not 100% on this) Magearna received some movepool nerfs. I'm in favor of letting it roam when Pokemon Home drops, to see if it could feel healthy within the meta.
Palafin - (Unban Cautiously)
While Palafin definitely deserved to be suspected and banned previously, I don't think that it was "obscenely" broken as it was predictable to play around given the right circumstances. With the new Pokemon coming in from Pokemon Home, I feel that Palafin has a chance to be kept in check, and thus should be let out and watched carefully.
Regieleki - (Unban Cautiously)
To be honest, I'm personally not too worried about Regieleki, and I wasn't really worried about it back in Gen 8 either. Sure, it's a great Pokemon, but the only thing that has me worried about it is whether or not Tera will push it over the edge. However, I feel that its Tera-type choices will be very limited compared to many other options on this list. I would simply say "Unban" for it, but the degree of uncertainty that hangs over my head regarding what Tera means for it is what keeps the "cautiously" in my pick.
Spectrier - (Ban)
I thought about it for a while even before the announcement, and while I was initially leaning towards "unban cautiously", I'm ultimately going to say that Spectrier shouldn't be tested. My justification? Look at Calm Mind Hatterene with Draining Kiss. Spectrier also has these options but is much faster with STAB Shadow Ball as well. Sure it may not be bulky and has a harder time switching in, but it truly feels like a problem that the meta just isn't prepared to handle yet. Like with Flutter Mane, maybe it might be worth testing upon the DLC release, but not now.
Urshifu (Single Strike) - (Unban Cautiously)
Conversely to Spectrier, I was initially leaning towards "ban", no question. However, the more I thought about it, the more I realized that Urshifu-Single Strike could potentially be healthy in the current meta. For one, it's the concrete Kingambit switch-in that everyone's been looking for, for two Pokemon such as Iron Valiant, defensive Hatterene and other threats scare it quite a bit, and three, it would sort of act as an "in-between" for Dark offense and justify the inclusion of more fairies to help with the current Dragon-type dominance in OU at the moment. I wouldn't be surprised if it got banned if unleashed, but I still think it's worth a test.
Zacian - (Unban Cautiously)
Since it was mentioned above by a few users, I would be open to seeing Zacian suspected in OU. Its attack was nerfed to 120, and its movepool, while great, is still lacking some serious options and the tier needs more powerful Fairy-types as I mentioned earlier. If it had access to moves like Earthquake, it would likely be a different story, but Zacian suffers from 4MSS in many ways - especially on Swords Dance variants - having to rely on Tera if it wants to make up for this problem. I wouldn't be surprised about a ban, but I think it's worth testing.
Zamazenta / Zamazenta-Crowned (Unban Cautiously)
I was one of the biggest advocates for Zamazenta-Crowned's testing in OU in Gen 8, and I'll continue to vouch for it here - but I'll also vouch for testing regular Zamazenta as well. I feel that Zama-C would be a healthy Knock Off absorber, while Zama-normal would be a potentially fun, strong, albeit predictable Choice Band / Choice Scarf user. Definitely worth a test, but I also wouldn't be surprised if, like Gen 8, it would have the Gen 2 Celebi problem of just being really, really hard to wear down.
Sorry, I was misinformed, when I was looking at the (Pre-DLC) VR, it slated Rillaboom at S-tier, I looked at the final VR update, and they added DLC components. My fault
I don't think things should be unbanned for the sake of it, in all honesty. Do we really expect Palafin to not do the same things it did before? Or ChiYu? Or Ape? These pokemon were all banned for reasons still apply, even in a world where they have 1 or 2 extra counters.
It’s 30% the first time, and chance of being burned is 1-.7^(turns used). But regardless, the problem is that so many Water types get it and punished every single switch in that wasn’t Clefable or had a Burn immune ability like Water Veil or was immune to Water. Honestly should have gotten the Pursuit treatment and just not be in the game, but at least its on Volcanion for now.
I don't think this is the best argument. The thing that made Scald annoying (even if not uncompetitive) was being one of the most riskless moves in the game relative to the potential payoff of a Physical Pokemon being completely neutered if it by it. So as noted, you're not taking one 30% Scald burn, you're taking multiple Scalds over the course of the game and either have to hope that 30% never happens or that your team isn't hamstrung by the burn when it inevitably lands on something.
This kind of reminds me of the mentality behind the Tauros checking Chien-Pao: They can do it one or two times, but if consistency is something you need, you're SoL there. Maybe the move's fine to keep around but that 30% proc is high when you're throwing this move out potentially Double-Digit times over the length of a match compared to other procs like Moonblast's 30% SpA drop or Shadow Ball's SDef drop
Agreed. Idt we should repeat one of the worse aspects of BW/XY tiering by unbanning obviously broken stuff for the sake of unbanning it. The only pre DLC ban worth revisiting is maybe Chien Pao, and the same kinda goes for things like Magearna, Spectrier, and Landorus that have continuously been unhealthy. As for things like Regieleki that have the possibility of being broken due to new additions I'd be okay with keeping them in the tier but keeping an eye on them and QBing should the need arise. As for Zamazenta I honestly don't know how allowing it in the tier would go, as Natdex has a very different metagame so it's not a great point of comparison.
I have to ask, when can we expect the council to vote on an initial banlist for Home, and when will that be public? I think right now a lot of people will spend the next week preparing for Home or trying out new things before the Home meta, but it's extremely difficult to prepare for that without knowing what the tier will look like Day 1. Also, is there a certain approach the council will be taking (retesting a lot of things in the tier, keeping most of our initial bans)
Scald isn't wholely riskless because if you or your opponent gets too comfortable spamming the move they can be caught and called on it, and subsequently punished. Scald is annoying, not saying it's not, but it also isn't this game breaking move some people like to make it out to be. Plus if you're worried about it, it's not impossible or unrealistic to have something to soak scalds up like your own bulky pokemon. Like AV Pex or Slowing/Glowking for example.
I get why some people don't like it but... I dunno. I've never thought of it as being that bad. I don't think it's more annoying than having your physical breaker/sweeper getting trolled by flame body/static.
I fail to see how Zamazenta isn't busted honestly. It's neutral speed tier will only be outsped by Pult, Gren, Meow, Leki and ties with torn-t so you can run adamant + band for silly power and CC, Play Rough, Crunch and Stone Edge which no mon resists. Oh and good luck killing it with 326, 399 and 266 defensive stats...
Hopefully it’ll be public sometime in the next 1-4 days. That’s a purposefully wide range as if accounts for mishaps and shifts. Just being honest: I don’t have an exact moment in mind. I’ll reveal what I can when I can.
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