Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion

[Local Dog]

If Scald returns in droves, it's highly likely that Covert Cloak will finally be a useful and legit item, as it's a move that will be very widespread, and there will finally be a real reason to use this item.

This seems too constricting too me and Covert Cloak doesn't fit on every physically attacking mon. Breloom for example would much rather run something like Choice Band, Rolled Dice or maybe even Metronome. Yeah it has other benefits but again, I would much, MUCH rather see a Scald suspect at some point

 

[Mega Breloom]

According to the leaks, a lot of the returning mons got access to trick, we might enter into a trick spam meta.

 

[scionicle]

Now that this is brought up, don't most of the mons that learn that dumbass scald, toxic and knock off get them in gen seven? So, does that mean that if they're transferred over to SV, they don't get those three moves? If I understood this correctly, wouldn't this change also affect gen eight ou since everyone's most hated toxic spammers, Garchomp, Heatran and Landorus will also lose access to the move? Or am I mistaken because that did say "you will be able to change" which implies that the change is optional and we're getting this stupid scald and toxic this generation again?

And speaking of sd Urshifu in gen eight, imagine spikes Garchomp and draining kiss Spectrier in gen eight lol. It almost makes me wish we can use Spectrier in gen eight ou again. Almost

Pretty much everything that wants scald could learn it in gen 8

 

[Trogba Trogba]

In the ideal world, there’s never an OU with both banned — we just ban the move at that point. The vote is to see how to proceed overall

Genuinely curious... Knowing that the move is broken (which it obviously is) and that Basculegion was coming at the drop of home (which we've known since the beginning); why didn't the council ban the move instead of the PU dog at the beginning? Is it really that important to keep consistent with banning principles?

 

[Mimikyu Stardust]

Finally, i can stop using Garbage Golduck, and use better Kingdra

 

[Galvanatic]

Genuinely curious... Knowing that the move is broken (which it obviously is) and that Basculegion was coming at the drop of home (which we've known since the beginning); why didn't the council ban the move instead of the PU dog at the beginning? Is it really that important to keep consistent with banning principles?

Tiering is decided by what's available and there was no guarantee that Basculegion would get Last Respects. As we've seen from the HOME listings, GF could back out of giving something a very strong move (like when Koko was supposed to get Rising Voltage before being officially released). And yes, it's important to be consistent.

 

[Motor Hawk]

Unban everything then after a month ban the top 20 most used mons.

Unban everything then after a month ban all mons that make it to OU.

 

[Crimson Chris]

Man, Weavile and Rillaboom really out here getting their whole kits back in 6 days.

 

[Mega Breloom]

Man, Weavile and Rillaboom really out here getting their whole kits back in 6 days.

Rilla saved itself from dropping to RU without GG, Weavile might not be OU if Pao gets unbanned but al least won't be RU anymore, maybe UUBL.

 

[FootHead58]

Genuinely curious... Knowing that the move is broken (which it obviously is) and that Basculegion was coming at the drop of home (which we've known since the beginning); why didn't the council ban the move instead of the PU dog at the beginning? Is it really that important to keep consistent with banning principles?

Not a member of the council, but I understand it to be like this: 99% of the time, adhering to banning principles keeps us from getting really stupid with certain things. You can potentially complex ban ANY Pokémon down if you feel you can identify what makes it broken, and that could lead to a really weird tier with a million complicated, messy bans on specific move sets, abilities, or items. Not ideal to have a tier where Kyogre is allowed, but only when it isn’t holding the Blue Orb, it’s not allowed to rra, and it stays level 88 or below.

While this system works pretty well, there is occasionally some collateral damage. Do we know last respects will be just as broken on Basculegion, if not more? Yeah, pretty much. However, we haven’t seen that for sure. Just like we haven’t seen for sure that Houndstone is broken because of Last Respects, or that the move isn’t just only broken on Houndstone.

Yes, the council could have just said “Eh, LR is busted let’s ban it” but that’s just not how Smogon does things. They have been successfully running a highly organized, entirely volunteer-run, player-determined metagame for years. They know what they’re doing. If the cost of standing by their banning principles is that PU has to wait 6 months for a mediocre ghost type, then so be it, it’s really not that big of a deal.

It’s easy for us as players to say “Why didn’t you just ban X that was clearly the broken element” but Smogon tries as hard as it can to ban the entire Pokémon, rather than splitting atoms into banning individual elements. It lets them be consistent and simple as much as possible, and if there ever comes up a time where there is evidence another user of that element is broken (eg Orthworm with Shed Tail, probably Basculegion with LR) then ok, we’ll ban the element. But we don’t theorymon aspects of a mon that are broken (no matter how obvious it may feel) and then pick them apart bit-by-bit with microbans unless there’s actual evidence that thing is broken on other mons.

Not looking to start beefing with anyone, just trying to explain the thought process for the eager players asking “Why not just X?” Which is a completely understandable reaction. Just hoping to shed some light on (how I understand) the OU council operates.

 

[ant4456]

pls stop being addicted to zamazenta, certified SS OU moment.
there are already 90000 threats wtf is wrong with voting on zamazenta lol

i love how even when the mon was broken there and the mon basically got buffed people are still arguing about it

and I will especially not trust the opinions of people who ran Jolly when Adamant made it like 3x better

 

[Finchinator]

Genuinely curious... Knowing that the move is broken (which it obviously is) and that Basculegion was coming at the drop of home (which we've known since the beginning); why didn't the council ban the move instead of the PU dog at the beginning? Is it really that important to keep consistent with banning principles?

I wanted to ban it given this knowledge, but was told speculative evidence is insufficient essentially. I am hoping we can ban the move now moving forward if there is support.

 

[Captain Marshadow]

I think people are jumping the gun when assuming that Pokemon are gonna get their old learnsets back when being transferred in. The site says they'll be learnable as long as they "can be learned" in whatever game they're going into, which COULD mean that since, say, Weavile doesn't get Knock in SV, it won't count under this "can be learned" moniker and thus won't be able to have when coming in. There's also the fact that there's no apparent update coming with SV to coincide, meaning the Battle Ready mark is still unaccounted for.

 

[Sittingduck1080]

I think people are jumping the gun when assuming that Pokemon are gonna get their old learnsets back when being transferred in. The site says they'll be learnable as long as they "can be learned" in whatever game they're going into, which COULD mean that since, say, Weavile doesn't get Knock in SV, it won't count under this "can be learned" moniker and thus won't be able to have when coming in. There's also the fact that there's no apparent update coming with SV to coincide, meaning the Battle Ready mark is still unaccounted for.

I really hope they do not get their old moveset, I want to see a metagame with defog-less genies, no scald, and limited knock off

 

[Mega Breloom]

I think people are jumping the gun when assuming that Pokemon are gonna get their old learnsets back when being transferred in. The site says they'll be learnable as long as they "can be learned" in whatever game they're going into, which COULD mean that since, say, Weavile doesn't get Knock in SV, it won't count under this "can be learned" moniker and thus won't be able to have when coming in. There's also the fact that there's no apparent update coming with SV to coincide, meaning the Battle Ready mark is still unaccounted for.

It is still uncertain, but it could be like the forgotten egg/tutor moves that can relearned with that NPC.

 

[Galvanatic]

Even if Scald comes back, I doubt Cloak stocks are gonna rise. I know Nat Dex isn't a perfect comparison, but it seems that most physical attackers in that tier, if they're not Megas or using a Z-Crystal, generally don't run Cloak (and if they do, it's for Garg, not Scald). I don't think the trade-off for power is worth it in a game of inches like this one, and I'd much rather have a go-to Scald absorber than a Cloak.

 

[Trogba Trogba]

I wanted to ban it given this knowledge, but was told speculative evidence is insufficient essentially. I am hoping we can ban the move now moving forward if there is support.

I get why people would say that. But at the end of the day, it's not national legislation - it's pokemon lol.

 

[woodgoldtwo]

I think people are jumping the gun when assuming that Pokemon are gonna get their old learnsets back when being transferred in. The site says they'll be learnable as long as they "can be learned" in whatever game they're going into, which COULD mean that since, say, Weavile doesn't get Knock in SV, it won't count under this "can be learned" moniker and thus won't be able to have when coming in. There's also the fact that there's no apparent update coming with SV to coincide, meaning the Battle Ready mark is still unaccounted for.

As long as the pokemon can learn the move in any of the gen 8 or gen 9 games (some moves from BDSP are excluded) it can be taught to the pokemon when transfered into any game with Pokemon Home compatibility and moves that it can't learn in gen 8 or gen 9 will not be able to be taught to the pokemon when transfered

 

[Mega Breloom]

Even if Scald comes back, I doubt Cloak stocks are gonna rise. I know Nat Dex isn't a perfect comparison, but it seems that most physical attackers in that tier, if they're not Megas or using a Z-Crystal, generally don't run Cloak (and if they do, it's for Garg, not Scald). I don't think the trade-off for power is worth it in a game of inches like this one, and I'd much rather have a go-to Scald absorber than a Cloak.

Yeah, people are forgetting that Pex also gets knock off , convert cloak is just a bad item and everyone should accept it already.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I get why people would say that. But at the end of the day, it's not national legislation - it's pokemon lol.

You must be new here

 

[Chilln0]

im gonna sound dumb for asking this, but why keep it banned?

its basically groudon but water. Hell it’s probably better cuz priority

 

[Trogba Trogba]

Yeah, people are forgetting that Pex also gets knock off , convert cloak is just a bad item and everyone should accept it already.

I don't think it does. Knock isn't a move taught or learned by much in gen 8, it was gen 7. Loads of stuff isn't getting knock for that reason in gen 9. Zapdos and Gliscor get defog tho which is cool through bdsp.

 

[Magcargo]

We need to unban everything that isn't obviously broken and embrace the power creep.

We also need to discover what mons are broken and what mons are broken by Tera.

Annihilape: Obviously broken- Rage Fist invalidates entire playstyles
Basculegion: Obviously broken - Last Respects is a meme
Chi Yu: Unban- No one dislikes Cheese-Yu more than me but as stated, we should try to embrace the power creep
Chien Pao: Unban- Pushed out by Tera, needs another chance
Espathra: Unban -SP cheese would be fine w/o Tera
Flutter Mane: Unban- Paper defense but we need to at least test this monster out
Houndstone: Obviously Broken- Last Respects is a meme
Iron Bundle: Unban- Same logic with Flutter- we need to see how it performs in the meta
Lando-I: Test- Yes. Even Lando-I, even w NP.
Magearna: Test- This thing lost SP- which was a huge reason it was OP last gen. It's still insane, but we need a steel/fairy in this meta
Palafin: Unban- We need to see how Fin performs w the power creep meta
Regieleki: Test- Clodsire exists and you have to Tera basically. Essentially, we deserve to play the meta w Leki, then see how Tera pushes it out.
Spectrier: Test- Gambit and Garg exist and we need to see how it performs
Urshifu: Test- Just embrace the creep
Zamazenta: Test- See above
Zamazenta Test- See above

To quickban something like Leki feels like major Tera cope.

Leki is a well designed, fun mon with obvious flaws baked in for balancing.

It feels like we want to ban as many mons as possible before they even get a chance, to mitigate the argument that Tera is forcing out a dozen or more mons from the meta.
Like, you can't miss what you never had? Wild.

If gen 9 OU looks a bit like Ubers for a min, so be it.
Even something insane like Lando-I could be revenged with Ice Shard. (but not if it Teras.)

Early meta should always be chaotic and have a power creep.

We either:
A) Keep Tera and allow most mons to be tested in OU, then ban accordingly to which mons Tera pushes out.
B) Ban a bunch of mons we know will be OP due to Tera, such as Leki (Terrible choice)
C) Keep Tera, allow most mons, QB a handful that we assume would be broken w or w/o Tera, then suspect test Tera.

We should also look into a separate ladder where mons like Leki are allowed but Tera is banned- and thus obviously Leki will be fine.

Quickbanning mons because they might be broken with Tera is lazy and unproductive-it doesn't gather pertinent data nor does it allow the playerbase to make the most informed decision with their Tera suspect vote.

This info is needed to have a legitimate Tera suspect. There will be players who enjoy the fast-spinner, spa elec mon for a few days, and then load up another day and see it's been banned due to Tera Fairy/Ice whatever.

Even if we ban all these mons day 1 deemed broken by Tera before they ever get a chance, all this does is move the Tera power creep down to things like G-Molt, G-Zap, Volcanion, Hoopa, Tran, - as well as letting Val, Gambit, Tusk, etc to set the benchmark on what's broken or not.

The initial suspect wasn't handled properly- too soon, too convoluted, too much hype.
It's a mistake that anyone would have made if they were council.

Now is the time to properly road map a Tera suspect.

What are we going to do, ban Leki, have a Tera suspect, then unban it if Tera does get banned?

Losing mons to Tera was whatever in the Mickey Mouse meta that is/was Pre-Home, like who cares right? It was just Espa and Pao pretty much.
But now with Home and upcoming DLC, how many Pokemon are we really going to sacrifice without giving Tera a proper suspect?

Tera can no longer be ignored and played around with like we have been. It's been a cute little ride, but now the variance just went through the roof.

Tera can only work in a small, limited meta.

It's been working out because we have a handful of viable mons, and their Teras are well known to some extent after several months.
When you add in another 50+ mons, it falls apart.
Even something as benign as Gliscor when it drops in DLC could be OP with Tera.
The party is over, sorry.

No one wants to see some DLC mon, look at its stats/moves/ability/design and be like oh this is really cool, really balanced and looks fun, but then have to think again and go.. ah, but if it Teras into a Fairy....

If a mon is broken by Tera, then Tera needs another suspect.
A simple ban/no ban vote, ideally coupled with a separate test ladder so players can actually see what they're voting for.

The initial Tera suspect mishandling can be forgiven, but to sit back and continually ban mons that are pushed out by Tera every few weeks for the next 2 years would be beyond the pale when it comes to leadership of this metagame.

IDK man, I'm not one for calling things uncompetitve, but I think Chi-Yu is probably one of the most centralizing & broken Pokemon introduced to OU and is more uncompetitive than anything else that has been currently banned. Sure it could be revenge-killed and was rocks weak, but exploiting every single slower Pokemon with a free KO was a bit too much imo. At least something like Chien-Pao could be exploited with passive damage from Rocky Helmet, but Chi-Yu didn't have such a weakness & had an easy nuke button in Overheat letting it pick up kills much easier than Chien-Pao.

 

[G-Luke]

This seems too constricting too me and Covert Cloak doesn't fit on every physically attacking mon. Breloom for example would much rather run something like Choice Band, Rolled Dice or maybe even Metronome. Yeah it has other benefits but again, I would much, MUCH rather see a Scald suspect at some point

No one is banning Scald post Gen 6 my guy. Get over it.

 

[Captain Marshadow]

As long as the pokemon can learn the move in any of the gen 8 or gen 9 games (some moves from BDSP are excluded) it can be taught to the pokemon when transfered into any game with Pokemon Home compatibility and moves that it can't learn in gen 8 or gen 9 will not be able to be taught to the pokemon when transfered

Looking at the wording again, you may be right. If they were sequestered off depending on game it'd be weird to list them all in a row like that when mentioning it'd need to be able to know the move in (x) game in order to use the feature.
That said, I'd still be cautious coming up on the update's release. You never know with this company after all.