Now I kinda wanna know what you voted on the survey ngl
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
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Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Lol I feel judged now. Here’s what I voted:
Espathra - 5
Garg - 3 (felt like 3.5 though)
Gholdengo - 1 (also felt like 1.5)
Lmao nah I was just honestly curious, and I couldn't judge anyways considering that we voted the exact same thing.
When were we supposed to quickban if? On every survey it has received less support than multiple Pokemon. As recently as two weeks ago on last survey, it was below Pao and Garg.
Despite literally being mid-suspect and unable to quickban things, we saw outcry and reacted with an unprecedented mid-suspect survey to expedite potential action. There is nothing more we can possibly do.
Do you just want us to ignore the community altogether? That’s now how it works. I’m happy to remove Espathra and we are taking the steps to get support — I even went out of my way to post why I responded saying it should be banned, but saying we dropped the ball without any substance is just nonsense.
I don’t see how not immediately acting on and banning a ‘mon that has had consistent 2–3 ratings on surveys counts as “dropping the ball”. It was very obvious that until recently people for the most part weren’t interested in this thing being QB’d, and it was also very obvious that, post-QB wave, support for action paled in comparison to Chien-Pao, who (shock horror!) is being acted on.
More like people voting in the exact same way of some influencers...Influencers are more culpable for the delay IMO because of the oft repeated "you can never really go wrong with 252/252/4 EV spreads" lie, which has held Espathra back
imo chien pao should have been a quickban
the council is too afraid to use the quickban button imo, which is my only criticism of this good council.
to be clear, I think the council right now is good. but they are seemingly afraid of ghosts in my time watching since before SWSH, and when they do, they retest them a stupid amount
In SWSH alone:
-not quickbanning Arena Trap
-not quickbanning Dracovish
IoA:
-not quickbanning Urshifu
-quickbanning Cinderace for SPL, then retesting right before Crown Tundra only for it to be banned, then it's unbanned in Crown Tundra, and then banned in Crown Tundra
-similar with Magearna except IIRC it wasn't retested in IoA, thank god
Crown Tundra:
-bringing back genesect (but to be fair, that's tradition so)
-not quickbanning Spectrier
-not quickbanning Urshifu
the council so far has been much more firm in SV, except stuff like this Chien Pao makes me worry that the same mistakes will happen again
when we get DLC announced, we're going to be having a middle metagame for like 4 months probably (if IoA is anything to go by), and half of that was spent retesting Pokemon that everyone reasonable knew was broken, and the meta basically didn't change from start to finish except for "is it unplayable or playable" as Cinderace + Urshifu went in and out of availability
if we just unban Chien Pao in a month or two, what was the point of this suspect test. We know it is broken. Everyone reasonable agrees. People were asking for a quickban before the suspect test was announced, people were confident it would be a quickban. Because that's... a very normal use of quickbanning. Everyone agrees Chien Pao is broken. It's making the metagame worse. People want Chien Pao gone. Ok, quickban it.
Now, we're going to get like 3ish weeks of the metagame without Chien Pao, before all of this progress is reset, from the sound of it.
It feels like the council is worried about what Little Timmies watching Smogon Youtube content think, when we don't "Smogon loves stall!!!" people don't matter. If they were going to leave the game because of their uproar about less used Ubers such as Lunala aren't being retested constantly, they would have left years ago. Quickbans aren't there just for convenience, but because the metagame is on a time limit to become quote-on-quote, "Good". When everyone sensible agrees, then it's time to use the button! Do it! Use it! You don't need to only do it for Flutter Mane level threats. And this is way worse now in a world where we are going to have like 4 largely different Gen 9 metagames, within the same titles.
This is a bit of a rant but, basically, please, for the love of god, don't make us retest obviously broken things to appease Little Timmy. The metagame will not progress if we take a month to ban something that everyone already agrees upon, and we only have 4 to 5 months to make a good metagame.
Think that, yes, there are some cases where a quick ban could have been best, but there's also a public reputation and a social status quo to follow, say what you want about the "BANDORUS-T" But they are the outside majority, and it's the high ranking people's job to make this as easy to follow and as educative as possible
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
To be fair if Smogon quickbanned anything else the casuals would explode. I do agree though that it should have been a quickban (and garganacl immediately suspected)
I feel u finch. its just in my opinion the definition of uncompetitive. I've never seen someone win with Espathra and been like "he out played him with the Espathra" im usually like "yea its no way he could of stopped that"
Pretty much this. Espathra started in UU, and wreaked havoc down there until it got the boot. Then it slowly crept in OU, and now we're closing in on potential action against it. I think this is about the same wait time as the UU players had to wait to get it out of the tier, so there isn't much room for people to complain here, myself included.
The casuals always scream at me for honoring Smog's system over "m-muh uncompetitive strats". It's so difficult these days to find a good balance between Smog rules and casual play... I remember back in Gen 4 when we had Serebii's IRC chat and people just played Smog rules, albeit sometimes with slightly different rulesets (namely items clause).
my counter-argument is that, the forum we are on right now, is a living document that allows people to read about why things were banned
not only that, but generally (if not always) have a page dedicated to explaining why something was quickbanned. This is to educate people who aren't as in the know, and if people don't read it, why do we care about their say? Effort is a two-way street; we can't expect to make decisions that people who fundamentally hate the idea of Smogon (or even competitive Pokemon) care about if we quickban a broken Pokemon.
I have met people that think the idea of banning things is dumb, or legendaries only; we've all met these people. As the community is way more known now, people use pretty much all of our decisions for memes (for or against), and to make content (for or against) the decision. If people don't get curious and just assume it's "that pesky Smogon doing that once again!!!" and don't do anything to educate themselves, why does it matter?
Because I can tell you, the majority of these people you are trying to appeal to will never respect Smogon, because they see it as fundamentally against the spirit of the game. And that is their opinion they can have, as long as they don't shove it down people's throats.
The minority who may have a reactionary opinion and do genuinely care, have a multitude of resources to understand why that stuff like Arena Trap gets banned, or Flutter Mane, etc. If they are still mad after, they probably wouldn't have accepted a suspect test result anyways (nor vote in it) citing "Stallgon does it again!!!"
when I said they dropped the ball, I meant they consistently have council votes on which Pokemon to quick ban. I don't Espathra got more then 3 ban votes.
Playing against espathra gives a similar feeling of playing against arena trap imo. That you have to consider several moves ahead and juggle it. Like people said, it just showing up on preview puts the opposing player in a precarious position. And yeah before the pao suspect, it hadn't really gained support for action. Originally I myself thought it was a 3, but recently realized it was actually an issue. Part of that is people weren't using it as much, at least on the lower ladder. In like the last week, it's usage along with orthworm seems to have suddenly gone up on the lower ladder. Also what are top players current feelings about orthworm/shed tail?
yeah dude we need to ban floatzel/greninja rain so I can stop being forced to run a water resist that can somehow take 50 or less from either or.
Not to Goodbye, but people who complain about slow council action if your join date year is after 2016 it means you didnt experience the slog that was Gen 6 tiering and pictured below is what I will be doing.
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With home coming soon, a chance pao may return. I think what makes it baffling is we have a survey in the middle of a pao suspect test that could warrant another ban or suspect with less than 3 weeks into a whole new meta. I get the frustration but we are just weeks away before all of this would just reset itself. Hopefully, we get news about home so we can see how the radar mons thrive in a new meta with home mons incoming. If home is later than expected than I feel action would need to be taken because waiting another month or so would not be a good idea.
Right now we are just acting to get a balanced and competitive metagame currently. Any and all bans are subject to being overturned when Home, but that doesn’t stop us from hustling to give people the best product for February and March in the meantime. That is our job after all.
How we act once Home drops will have nothing to do with current bans, but the proactive pace and attention to public perception will remain at the forefront of our handling of the metagame.
How we act once Home drops will have nothing to do with current bans, but the proactive pace and attention to public perception will remain at the forefront of our handling of the metagame.
"I had it worse before, so if it's slightly better now, there is no problem!"yeah dude we need to ban floatzel/greninja rain so I can stop being forced to run a water resist that can somehow take 50 or less from either or.
Not to Goodbye, but people who complain about slow council action if your join date year is after 2016 it means you didnt experience the slog that was Gen 6 tiering and pictures below is what I will be doing.
View attachment 490448
being a boomer about smogon of all things is wild
This seems like a pretty bad justification for inaction. That’s still 3 full weeks of what many believe to be a meta with glaring flaws, and brushing over it doesn’t really make sense. Not trying to go after you personally here, but you’ve been making this same argument (and variations of it) for months now, so it seems to me more like you’d just prefer inaction generally, as opposed to specifically right now with Home on the horizon. Either way, most of the mons that are on the radar/were banned aren’t going to be fixed by the home additions, and to people saying otherwise, how so? What mons do you seriously think would balance either of the Ruin mons, or Espathra, or Garganacl, or Annihilape? I’m seriously wondering what y’all are referring to when you make that argument, because I haven’t seen anyone go into detail on it yet.
We are literally just volunteers trying to perfect a craft that is judged as if we are professionals.
It’s night and day as to how much has changed. We never had community surveys and suspects were far more spread apart. Right now, the process is so much better and transparency is at a new high. I choose to celebrate these things and I do not see anything wrong with what AM said.
With this said, you’re more than welcome to remain wanting more improvement and I hope we can keep getting better, too. There is still lots of room to go. But both can be true.
voted espathra 5, garg 4, and dengo 1 but i think action on tera would signifigantly reduce how shitty the former two can feel to play against.
right now tera allows swing turns that are extremely low-risk and high-reward. theres almost no counterplay to a sudden tera besides reading correctly on 1) what the tera type is and 2) if the opponent will even tera in the first place. basically just a shitty guessing game thats super punishing. this isnt so much the case of same-type tera for just some extra stab, but fairy/water garg, fire/fighting espathra, flying ground-types, etc would be much more manageble if action was taken on the mechanic.
imo just having it shown on team preview would make it a lot more bearable
right now tera allows swing turns that are extremely low-risk and high-reward. theres almost no counterplay to a sudden tera besides reading correctly on 1) what the tera type is and 2) if the opponent will even tera in the first place. basically just a shitty guessing game thats super punishing. this isnt so much the case of same-type tera for just some extra stab, but fairy/water garg, fire/fighting espathra, flying ground-types, etc would be much more manageble if action was taken on the mechanic.
imo just having it shown on team preview would make it a lot more bearable
Average 700-800s player here but I'm honestly starting to feel like Shed Tail is still a stupidly broken move despite Orthworm being kinda of a bad mon, and it rising to OU is a clear sign of this. Not only does it feel almost as uncompetitive as Baton Pass, due to how easy it is to pivot around and keep momentum, but as we all know getting a free sub is pretty much an immediate win condition on certain mons (cough cough Espathra), if you don't have an answer or a check in the next turn. Combined with the unpredictability of defensive Teras, the opponent is very likely to get at least 2 turns to set up freely, and you'll end up losing a mon just to break the sub.
This turns otherwise manageable offensive sweepers like Volcarona, Dnite, Iron Valiant and Pult into nightmare fuel, often times completely turning the tides of the game.
I initially thought that Orthworm couldn't keep up with the pace of the meta, especially considering that it doesn't have Regen or recovery to allow it to spam Shed Tail, but now that people have started experimenting with Sitrus Berry and Rest+Talk this whole strat is getting quite annoying. I would like to hear other players opinions about it, cause I don't believe this move is competitive at all.
Edit: and I forgot, don't get me started on Shed Tail + Screens.
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i hate I have to make a more serious post given where I am now but it’s just corny the mentality the way y’all complain about how tiering is being handled when it’s literally being handled in a very effective manner in the timeframe given. All the suspect mons or those on the grounds of it besides Espathra (because like BP of the past its a mega unhealthy matchup fish) arent on the level of half the stuff from past gens to justify crazy quick bans or whatever snark passive aggressive comment demanding stuff. We didnt have surveys before and bans were so conservative you had to go cry to old councils that did nothing but confirm with only the elite players (meaning a pool of 30 peoples opinion mattered) to even get a discussion let alone suspect. I dont want to derail this too much but it’s so wild to read people say do better…when they’ve been doing better.
i mean, the whole point of smogon is to be democratic and fair. even if i agree chien pao is too good i think having a suspect test makes sense, the meta with it is still playable and you can check it to a degree. just quickbanning anything that most people are pretty sure is broken wouldn't be very fair and would deny discussion on that broken element. it could also end up with some more irrational bans though i think the current council is pretty good at avoiding those.
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