I agree with all of this. Let the meta settle until pokemon day and when home is released then we can gauge the meta and what’s needs to be done. If home is march, I would just wait. If it’s April or may, I’d consider testing for any of your mentions above. Great post!
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion
- Thread starter TPP
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This is mostly my line of logic when making that posts. Chien-Pao's taken two weeks, and if it's decided action must be done on the bird and salt, then quickbanning is the course of action for that presumably three week gap.
However my other point is that, should action even be bothered if we have a bunch of OU relevant stuff coming in those three weeks? I'm basically just echoing what people said in response to my post but a suspect on either would most likely be a waste since Home, along with Home unbans would he coming quickly after.
I just personally believe a survey after Chien-Pao presumably gets the boot would also be kinda meaningless since a big metagame shakeup is going to happen not soon after that. It would be neat to see how people feel about the metagame currently before the Home stuff though.
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We know at least Landorus will be in, which means nightmare fuel time.
I don't recall what else actually got in, or what the DLC may bring. But Lando is the biggest name coming in.
I'm not the biggest Garg hater, quite the opposite, but I believe that people have the right to a suspect test if they want to, especially considering the fact that we mostly agree that the metagame isn't balanced right now and needs a couple of fixes. I also would like to reconsider my position on Garg since I'm not 100% against the idea of banning it, and a suspect test will help me sort things out.
I am quite sold on the idea of banning Espathra as well after Pao though, that mon is cheap af.
New tiering survey is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-tiering-surveys.3711911/#post-9499511
Finch back at it again blessing the community with democracy, appreciate it.
I gave Espathra a 5. It's getting ridiculous (like it was a month or two back) now that people have began using Tera Fire on top of the old sets and Grimmsnarl is making a comeback. Even things like Orthworm support or pairing it with a lead Spiker make it really nauseating to handle with just a little wear on teams. Aside from Tera Dark Clodsire, nothing is unconditionally answering it. Yes, there are more counters that work in some or more conditions, but even then it's not more than a handful and the overlap across sets/support varies so much. Teambuilding in an Espathra metagame is like walking carefully through a minefield and playing against it is similarly nerve-wracking as you incur potentially fatal risk without being fully informed until it may be too late.
Same just submitted the survey and I put Espathra a 5, Nacl a 4, and Dengo a 3. Thanks for putting out the tiering survey in such a timely manner!
Also gave Espathra a 5, that thing is clearly busted, especially when it's paired with Orthworm. I gave Garg a 3 for the reasons above, I'm kinda 70% against the ban, but I still wanna support those who may find it too unbalanced for the current meta, and I do believe it deserves a suspect test. I gave Gholdengo a 1, it's an incredibly good mon but I'm wary to call it anywhere near broken.
Unaware + SpD spread + Tera dark generally counters it.
agree it’s not a good fit for OU. Have been suggesting so consistently since its set flexibilities emerged. It can reliably get +2 after a sack even. At least the screens teams and orthworm support are easily predicted and played around.
but you can’t play around forced outcomes. Like an espathra trading for a critical check that you have, which also checks its partners. That’s where espathra is broken, forced outcomes. Especially when you get a 50/50 wrong against it.
Espa got a 5 from me, mostly because of people really starting to understand how to use it. I support a Quick Ban.
Garg gets a 5 from me due to having people run Covert Cloak, a item that wouldn't be talked about much, just to counter it. Is it an issue of mon or move though? Who knows. I support a Suspect Test (if Home doesn't arrive by Pokémon Day). There is a lot to discuss about this guy.
I voted 5 for Garg mostly because I think action is needed very strongly.
Gholdengo gets a 2, it's good but I don't want to say it's broken. He's just a very good glue mon.
Garg gets a 5 from me due to having people run Covert Cloak, a item that wouldn't be talked about much, just to counter it. Is it an issue of mon or move though? Who knows. I support a Suspect Test (if Home doesn't arrive by Pokémon Day). There is a lot to discuss about this guy.
I voted 5 for Garg mostly because I think action is needed very strongly.
Gholdengo gets a 2, it's good but I don't want to say it's broken. He's just a very good glue mon.
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I hope Gholdengo continues to stay on the radar. Maybe I am missing something but the way it enables hazard stack really exacerbates some of the issues with overpowered offensive mons. And I don't think it really helps with the Garganacl problem either.
voted 4 for espathra, but honestly i was closer to 4.5 if i had to say but decimals were not an option. really dumb win condition that fishes rly hard and is annoying as all hell to predict. although dengo and gambit can handle fairy (and the former fighting), stuff like tera fire is rising in use which smites p much all standard pathra responses barring maybe skeledirge and tera dark dozo/sire. it certainly can be stopped and i think it's not necessarily an impossible pokemon to respond to especially without tera, but with tera it's just got way too many options and is much more readily able to pave extra crucial turns to snowball. good team support in orthworm and screens accentuates this further. i think it doesn't provide anything positive for the tier and i would very much support quick removal.
garg is a complicated case. i actually do feel it deserves a suspect test, but most definitely not a qb due to the much more flexible counterplay in cloak, sub, tusk, and other stuff. i think garg is deserving of its own discussion and i will elaborate later but school + tired. i support a suspect, in short. 3.
dengo is extremely good and a top tier pokemon but for all of its flexibility it always has some kind of achilles heel that can make it p much always beatable and scoutable, esp with the fact that it can't really ever ko any make it rain resist out the rip with shadow ball. maybe my stance on this will change more with the removal of chien pao and as we evaluate the hazard metagame more, but for the meantime i do not think it is particularly worth exploring over garg/pathra at this time especially since its metagame impact is much more abstract and requires a ton more discussion. 1.
garg is a complicated case. i actually do feel it deserves a suspect test, but most definitely not a qb due to the much more flexible counterplay in cloak, sub, tusk, and other stuff. i think garg is deserving of its own discussion and i will elaborate later but school + tired. i support a suspect, in short. 3.
dengo is extremely good and a top tier pokemon but for all of its flexibility it always has some kind of achilles heel that can make it p much always beatable and scoutable, esp with the fact that it can't really ever ko any make it rain resist out the rip with shadow ball. maybe my stance on this will change more with the removal of chien pao and as we evaluate the hazard metagame more, but for the meantime i do not think it is particularly worth exploring over garg/pathra at this time especially since its metagame impact is much more abstract and requires a ton more discussion. 1.
Dusk Mage Necrozma
formerly XenonHero126
Espathra: 3 (I have no idea how to feel about it)
Garganacl: 4 (I do feel like it should be banned but it isn't as egregiously broken as 5)
Gholdengo: 2 (It's fine)
Garganacl: 4 (I do feel like it should be banned but it isn't as egregiously broken as 5)
Gholdengo: 2 (It's fine)
I feel like Espathra is a lot like Volc or Blaziken last gen, with creating immense pressure from just being seen on preview and being often times hard to stop once it gets rolling. The thing is that Speed Boost + STAB stored Power is much stronger than most of what Volc and Blaziken had
Still put it at 2. It requires long term planning once you see it and you gotta prepare for it in builder, but it's not too warping in my opinion
Still put it at 2. It requires long term planning once you see it and you gotta prepare for it in builder, but it's not too warping in my opinion
3, this would probably be higher, but I just havent seen it enough to form a concrete opinion on it
4, still think this thing should be suspected down the line, really dumb mon.
1, I think this mon is crazy good, and undeniably has a strong effect on the metagame, I just don't think said effect is particularly unhealthy, meta defining, not meta breaking.
for me its a 3, but that's because I haven't been swept enough I guess 4, please, i wanna see him on the chopping block first 2, I recently read a quote from a person that I don't remember exactly, but it said "Gholdengo is the new DPP Jirachi, you can counter it, check it, play around it, but damm if it isn't a pain in the ass to do so" I agree, we have more than enough checks and counters already, the thing we don't have and that's why its so frustrating are counters that can remove hazardsWasn't sure if "Played 1 game during SLP XIV" counted the normal ladder or directly playing in the league, so I said no, in spite of playing a fair bit of OU outside of the league. Also gave up on Chien-Pao reqs (there's no way I'm getting 50+ with 80% in a day and a half.) Buuut here's my results;
5. I didn't even need to think about it. Even with playing Pokemon like Skeledirge, running into Espathra is always a thing of "Ugh, here we go again..." and needing to play damn near perfectly around it and anything that wants to try and enable it. The emu needs to go. Sorry, Joey but the bird needs to become Thanksgiving dinner.
3. I used to vote 4+ on Garganacl just because of its whole kit, but since I started playing with Covert Cloak AND Skeledirge, I've been having less and less problems dealing with it. Salt Cure never breaks Dirge sub in 1 go, and neither does Earthquake/Body Press if you're Tera'd. Both of these basically invalidates Garg.
4. Dengo is annoying to deal with, but is also still the best damn anti-hazard control in the game, bar none. Blocks every single form of hazard removal in the game, blocks status, and even stops Memento degeneracy. As someone whose seen Dengo's power both with and against it... It's actually a seriously wild Pokemon.
Other: Shed Tail. It's what got Cyclizar banned, and now Orthworm is OU again because of it. Even slow Shed Tail is still Shed Tail, even if it only gets 1 to 2 uses per game compared to like 4 from Cyclizar. I was a part of the Shed Tail ban party pre-Cyclizar ban, and still am. Sub + Pass in a single move is absolutely bonkers, even at the cost of 50% HP.
5. I didn't even need to think about it. Even with playing Pokemon like Skeledirge, running into Espathra is always a thing of "Ugh, here we go again..." and needing to play damn near perfectly around it and anything that wants to try and enable it. The emu needs to go. Sorry, Joey but the bird needs to become Thanksgiving dinner. 3. I used to vote 4+ on Garganacl just because of its whole kit, but since I started playing with Covert Cloak AND Skeledirge, I've been having less and less problems dealing with it. Salt Cure never breaks Dirge sub in 1 go, and neither does Earthquake/Body Press if you're Tera'd. Both of these basically invalidates Garg. 4. Dengo is annoying to deal with, but is also still the best damn anti-hazard control in the game, bar none. Blocks every single form of hazard removal in the game, blocks status, and even stops Memento degeneracy. As someone whose seen Dengo's power both with and against it... It's actually a seriously wild Pokemon. Other: Shed Tail. It's what got Cyclizar banned, and now Orthworm is OU again because of it. Even slow Shed Tail is still Shed Tail, even if it only gets 1 to 2 uses per game compared to like 4 from Cyclizar. I was a part of the Shed Tail ban party pre-Cyclizar ban, and still am. Sub + Pass in a single move is absolutely bonkers, even at the cost of 50% HP.
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
I don’t mean for this to sound rude or insinuating of anything, but are most people voting on the tiering survey based on just their personal experiences when playing? I know that may sound kind of odd because of course what matters most to you is how you experience playing the game, and that’s how it should be, but I also think that you need to be kind of cognizant of how indicative your experiences may be regarding the “true” strength of mons and how they impact a tier. If someone forms their views exclusively off of their own experience playing on the ladder (and particularly if they’re lower level players), they’re not going to be seeing good representations of how mons are “supposed” to function in the metagame. Not to sound mean but low ladder players are also very unlikely to end up getting reqs if something does end up being suspected anyway, so regardless of their opinions, they’re unlikely to influence tiering. Similarly, if someone always uses something like Ting-Lu and base their opinions of a mon like Espathra solely from how Espathra feels for them to play against, then they’ll also have a skewed opinion. I get that the point of a tiering survey is to try to collect as much data as possible about how people feel about certain mons in the metagame, and the “qualified submissions” are there to try to weed out some of the “less valuable” contributions, but I would recommend everyone to try to think not only of how they have personally experienced interacting with a mon but also how they have seen other players (especially in high level tournaments like SPL) play with or against it. Again, I don’t want to sound like I’m gatekeeping or anything and everyone’s personal opinion does matter, but I always feel like it’s healthy in life to try to form opinions based on more information than just what you personally experience. Obviously this is just Pokemon though and none of this is very important anyway, so I’ll get off of my soapbox now.
that's why the surveys ask for ladder numbers, and skill proof, not to mention that they can also see smogon post to see how active they are here, of course there's a natural amount of gatekeeping due to the very nature of competitive anything, but they are not automatically discarding my opinion just because I'm only 1500, that's why they are making PUBLIC surveys in the first place, if anything, this helps counter the 2017 elitist discord servers that accidentally created a cave of screams
With that being said, I'm gonna expose myself for comedy and reaction points and say that i haven't watched a single game of SPL, can someone notify me when people start using Eerie Impulse Wash tom or Sub taunt ting lu
Goodbye & Thanks
Thrown in a fire?
Yeah, I agree with all of that and that’s why I said that everyone should vote and express their own opinions. I’m just advocating that people try to form their opinions based on more than their personal experiences playing the tier (and that’s true of any player, regardless of skill level) by watching sets from tournaments like SPL. Obviously someone’s personal experience does matter and should be taken into account, but I don’t think that it’s good if someone only focused on that.
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