RIP Torkoal then, I guess. A fair sacrifice for the cause
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v4 [Volcarona Suspect]
- Thread starter TPP
- Start date
Finch, do you view this as the most pressing issue in OU? I feel like while this is important it a sleep suspect/ban does not move the needle for the meta that much.
Sleep and Kyurem are the only two pressing topics to me right now. You can talk me into Gouging Fire as well.
Darkrai* and Kyurem :3
Remove that icy bastard and his fiery cousin and I'll become a substantially happier person personally.
Yeah Kyurem is cracked. I’d rather see that go than sleep.
Start removing stuff and it wont be long until the meta becomes unbalanced again and the ban waves startRemove that icy bastard and his fiery cousin and I'll become a substantially happier person personally.
Both.
Thoughts on Deo-S?
This is both true, and why there's not been any big push for immediate tiering action.
Roaring Moon and Kyurem gotta go
Gouging Fire isn't problematic due to being rocks weak and not impossible to check defensively unless it gets ample time to set up, in which case it can obliterate everything under sun, but because sun + ddance is a requirement for it to immediately doing funny numbers that kind of balances it out.
Not remotely broken rn
I feel an argument can be made for keeping Yawn, since it works differently mechanically and avoids the uncompetitive elements of the other sleep moves because the counterplay is consistent. I mean, Perish Song is legal despite the OHKO moves being banned, and I feel like this is a similar situation.
Maybe we should start excising the problems from the format so it can be both balanced and fun to play!
This crazy in comparison to the first week or so of the metagame. Happy he's settled down and the other kids on the playground have learned to tolerate him throwing nuclear warheads
Uh... anyone using Slither Wing? I am! It's fun to throw it onto sun even if Triceratops-Entei outclasses it. I just like leaving a... first impression.
Imo its quite fun. Lots of different viable strategies and mons are playable. Its true HO and balance seem to benefit from this meta but isnt this good? It likely needs some tweeks but its A LOT healthier and more diverse than before DLC2
HO and Balance means shorter games, which often means more fun. Unlike more bulky strategies and stall that often force longer game of constantly walling the opponent.
Also seems Tera is going to stay? I feel people like Tera now more than ever and most of the time you can play around it. It also adds some nice strategy flexibility and surprises which are imo healthy. Most people has already learnt how it works and how to play around it, and 90% of the time its somewhat predictable. Also gives mons that would have some struggles a bigger chances of making it into to the tier.
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An argument can be made that TOO much stuff is viable rn, making the metagame very matchup fishy. Answering all of Raging Bolt, Kyurem, Gouging, etc on the same team while not losing to other stuff like Gliscor, Arch Rain, or Deo-S is hard. But, I feel that has always been an issue and there is still room to play around these strategies, though perhaps less so against rain and sun.
Even dealing with hazard stack has room to be played around by exerting enough pressure to stop gliscor or whatever from setting up hazards in the first place.
Gen 9 I think is also highlighting the importance of "1 free turn" more than any other generation, which is exacerbated by Tera. Guessing incorrectly vs a threat like Valiant often can mean death even if you have it covered on paper. Tera lets Pokemon like these run far more viable sets in the past and makes it so there is a legit use case for niche options like Liquidation. That being said, Tera is also important in taking away that "1 free turn" by interrupting a mon in its sweep and the like + can pave the way for new defensive options in a match.
I'm not really making any sweeping statements here, just pointing out some observations lol.
Even dealing with hazard stack has room to be played around by exerting enough pressure to stop gliscor or whatever from setting up hazards in the first place.
Gen 9 I think is also highlighting the importance of "1 free turn" more than any other generation, which is exacerbated by Tera. Guessing incorrectly vs a threat like Valiant often can mean death even if you have it covered on paper. Tera lets Pokemon like these run far more viable sets in the past and makes it so there is a legit use case for niche options like Liquidation. That being said, Tera is also important in taking away that "1 free turn" by interrupting a mon in its sweep and the like + can pave the way for new defensive options in a match.
I'm not really making any sweeping statements here, just pointing out some observations lol.
While I do agree with the statement that when too much is viable it could be problematic, I don't think this is the case right now. Simply because the answers to mons are overlapping. Great tusk for example, can take on gholdengo, kingambit and raging bolt just off the top of my head. However, because these mons can overlap, they don't always appear on the same team, which reduces the strain the answers have to perform. Only stuff like kyurem and potentially moon for me is problematic because the answers are so out of the way that they don't do as well into the rest of the metagame, combined that their sets can change their answers easily.
TLDR, agree with the viable statement, but don't think it is applicable to this metagame.
look all I'm saying is that if the metagame becomes awful and volatile because we remove roaring moon, we should remove roaring moon and then fix the metagame. roaring moon has to go either way so just rip the bandaid off and remove the other problems too
Tell me what your opinion on Sleep would be when it can sleep your entire team in a row (which is how it should be working unless we make up some other clause, sleep mod clause is a bullshit addition by being a mod"
nah I think Gliscor would have kinda dunked on Lando T in gen 8
Lando T half the time with that spdef shit was basically being fake Gliscor anyways, imagine a SWSH Lando T that can heal, can't be statused, gains 12% a turn. Yeah Intimidate, but a lot of the mons it was pivoting on were mixed or special.
Like, in SWSH I literally click Scald as Lando T clicks EQ, live, burn it, and now any time it comes in even with rocks it's losing health. You can cope and say "yeah well it doesn't need to live the entire game" which is true, but like. Imagine if it just didn't die. I think Gliscor in Gen 8 would have dunked on Lando T easily no way about it.
I think Pex is much more a case of being nerfed. Scald let it pivot more or punish switch ins which it caused a lot of. In Gen 9 you switch into a mon, and then you can't really do anything. AV Pex kinda did something but that isn't nearly as consistent obviously, ESPECIALLY when hazard meta became even better. That set has fake ass Regen now.
this is how sleep moves clause was implemented in bw—direct sleep moves and yawn are banned, but stuff like effect spore and relic song are allowed to stay. i presume it's going to work the same way for this gen, since it's the same clause. as for yawn, i fully understand the sentiment behind keeping it, but i think it's highly likely to create far more problems than it solves in a meta with unclaused sleep, so i believe the best move is tossing it out with the rest of them
Is it because you think it is not broken in the first place or people have learned to adapt to it?
How useful is tinkaton outside of the gholdengo match up?