Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3

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Zamazenta loses to Sableye

Sableye uses encore to Heavily Screw over Body Press Zamazenta

Zamazenta has to read a switch-in with Crunch

Sableye burns Zamazenta into oblivion and recovers off damage dealt

Sableye is a very good Pokemon
It's official! Sableye is the solution to all of the problems in OU! Iron Valiant fucking you up? Tera Steel bulky Sableye will fix that problem with encore and uhhh. Donbozo ruining your life? Encore that fucker into curse and click foul play! Gholdengo doing Gholdengo things? Destiny Bond and hope they fucking kill you!

Sableye, buy now for 4 payments of only $19.99 + Shipping and Handling!
 
Zamazenta loses to Sableye

Sableye uses encore to Heavily Screw over Body Press Zamazenta

Zamazenta has to read a switch-in with Crunch

Sableye burns Zamazenta into oblivion and recovers off damage dealt

Sableye is a very good Pokemon
Sableye loses to Fezandipiti

Fezandipiti uses Taunt to Heavily screw over Prankster Sabeleye

Sableye has to switch out to mitigate the taunt

Fezandipiti has toxic chain to spread Hazards

Fezandipiti is a really good pokemon

zamazenta loses to dondozo

cover yourself in dondozo

wait for it to zamazenta

why are we formatting posts like this
It is Really informative

All the info is laid out in this format
 
Fezandipiti has toxic chain to spread Hazards
MISINFORMATION SPOTTED

*ahem* as an RU player, I must inform thee that ye olde Fezen of Dipiti's ability "Toxic Chain", despite having a similar naming convention to the newly added ability "Toxic Debris", does not function in the same manner. Toxic Chain adds a 30% chance to inflict Toxic upon moves hitting. The ability does not have a 30% chance to drop Toxic Spikes (yet, that ability comes in gen 10)
 
Sableye loses to Fezandipiti

Fezandipiti uses Taunt to Heavily screw over Prankster Sabeleye

Sableye has to switch out to mitigate the taunt

Fezandipiti has toxic chain to spread Hazards

Fezandipiti is a really good pokemon
You FOOL! SABLEYE ALSO LEARNS TAUNT. Buy now at any store that sells lower tier pokemon with broken abilities near you! Tell them that Yubel sent you for 0.5% off your purchase!
 
You FOOL! SABLEYE ALSO LEARNS TAUNT. Buy now at any store that sells lower tier pokemon with broken abilities near you! Tell them that Yubel sent you for 0.5% off your purchase!
Sableye meta is looming

Sableye Can Counter any physical non-fairy wall

Sableye learns Prankster

Sableye always has the options to beat you

Sableye can’t always have options to beat you

Sableye suffers from 4-move Syndrome

Sableye is hard to counter as you don’t know what moves it will run

Sableye is a really good pokemon
 
Sableye learns encore

Encore pokemon are currently good in the meta due to countering Kingambit

so clearly all you have to do to is encore Kingambit and you can win the game through burn chip and recover

and it'll always work too; since Kingambit is a fairy type
 
Sableye learns encore

Encore pokemon are currently good in the meta due to countering Kingambit

so clearly all you have to do to is encore Kingambit and you can win the game through burn chip and recover

and it'll always work too; since Kingambit is a fairy type
MISINFORMATION SPOTTED

As an OU Player, I am here to inform that the newly added evolution to Bisharp, Kingambit, is not Fairy type, but is indeed, a Dark/Steel type. I can understand why you made that mistake, as most Kingambits use Fairy as a Tera type, to counter it’s 4x weakness to fighting, due to it’s Dark/Steel and not Fairy Typing, as well of it being a n excellent defensive typing.
 
I think this is a really good post as to why Gholdengo is a negative influence on the tier all in all. I like the mentioning that Gholdengo really hurts balance structures a lot, which is something that I feel should be considered a lot more as an overall effect on the metagame.

I would like to expand on point 1, however, which even further strengthens the argument for a Gholdengo ban. I want to look at the Gholdengo + spikes setter + Zapdos core that is pretty popular when it comes to hazard stacking.

Here is a sample paste of the core that I feel could be really strong: https://pokepast.es/dcc3f33a64722951

This isn't a perfect example, and I don't have a team that best showcases this, but I have seen these cores pop up a lot more, and when I was playing structures such as balance and bulky offense, these cores really felt incredibly overpowered.

Here's my issue with these cores as a whole:

1. The opponent goes into their hazard setter, which is Ting-Lu in this case, and sets up some hazards. This can be a spike or rocks.

You respond by going to Great Tusk to spin away the hazards. Why wouldn't you?

2. The opponent goes into Zapdos as to not risk their Gholdengo. Yes, this max defense Gholdengo will live a hit, but you can just knock into headlong rush the following turn, and if they switch after getting knocked, they're in range.

Great Tusk successfully gets the hazards off, for now. You lose tempo, but at least teams like these cannot punish you too hard with momentum advantage. Seems fine, right?

3. Over the course of a game, steps 1 and 2 repeat until Great Tusk inevitably gets paralyzed by the static Zapdos.

This doesn't seem like too much of a problem, but this is where the problems start occurring.

4. The hazard setter, Ting-Lu, switches in to get hazards up.

You, again, go Great Tusk to get the hazards off.

5. The opponent either goes into...

a) Zapdos to respond to Great Tusk and threaten it with a hurricane

or b) a full health Gholdengo; Gholdengo outspeeds your Great Tusk now, so this isn't a horrible idea because you can kill it with a make it rain after it headlongs or just recover off the knock off.

For the situation of a), you get the spin off and you are safe. All is well, right?

For the situation of b), you get the headlong off, but because Gholdengo outspeeds you, you need to retreat into something in order to take the attack. You have to deal with hazards for a couple of cycles, but this is only one layer, so it shouldn't be that bad, right?

6. If a) occurred last time, the opponent follows this cycle until, you guessed it, Great Tusk gets paralyzed! Now, you lost your spin chance and your opponent can put even more pressure on you, especially since Great Tusk is slower than almost the entire opposing team. If b) occurred last time, this is even worse, because now the layer on your side is too difficult to get rid of. This is a scary situation to be in against a pretty bulky team. If the opponent even wants to do so, the opponent can try to get even more layers with Ting-Lu (some rocks, for example) and attempt to sack the Gholdengo, going for game with Zapdos + pivot wear down.

This is my problem with Gholdengo. Even if you have the mon that is literally marketed to beat Gholdengo structures, against hazards, Great Tusk is simply forced to spin until it literally gets full stopped and you succumb to hazards.

Now, this is just a sample situation and, consequently, does not always result in the hazard stacker winning. If you have a mon that can punish bulkier structures like these ones in particular, you still have chances. However, these teams aren't always full stall or even necessarily balance; these structures can be what I like to isolate as just "hazard stack," where the opponent has the hazard stack core and anti-offense countermeasures, such as a Dragonite or an Iron Valiant, just to set an example.

What this translates into is a situation where realistically, you cannot get hazards off, even with one of the only hazard remover that can dream of getting hazards off consistently. Yes, Maushold exists, but that gets earthquaked on the switch by Ting-Lu until it goes down. Hatterene also exists, but it struggles to Samurott-Hisui.

Now, my last way to (hopefully) simplify everything in a way that all players would be able to easily understand and relate to is by comparing it to ice spinner during the Gliscor meta. If Great Tusk wants to remove hazards in the face of said cores, you would likely either need protective pads + wish support or head smash and pray the Zapdos is not max defense. Or, looking at a more viable solution that more balanced (and fatter) teams use, we get heavy duty boots spam, the good ol' item that pisses off low ladder players due to the fact that there is no item clause and/or heavy duty boots ban.
I'm a bit confused why your analysis doesn't take into account that most hazard setters in this meta get worn down as well. Ting-Lu, Samurott-Hisui, Glimmora, Garchomp, Greninja, Meowscarada, even Ogerpon - they all lack good recovery options and don't tend to last too long if they stay out on the field. Clodsire is the exception to this, but it is an extremely passive mon sitting down in C+ that's hardly splashable.

From what I've seen, since the Gliscor ban, what it usually boils down to is a back-and-forth between the two teams to see if the hazard removers or hazard setters get worn down first. (This is also part of why Gliscor was an outlier - it pretty much automatically won this competition.) This back-and-forth then usually ends up being a grey area where an excellent, competitive match of Pokemon can take place. Each team can recognize each other's wincon, and the battle becomes predominantly about gradual positioning. Another angle of it I find interesting is that you usually want to be constantly evaluating how much the hazard minigame will affect the outcome of the battle. Often, if you can bait your opponent into overinvesting in winning the hazard war, you can chip down their checks just enough for your wincon to clinch you the game.
 
I really don’t think banning gholdengo is really going to have the effect on the hazard problem that people think it will. Our hazard setters vastly outclass all forms of removal rn. I don’t think the two or three at most removal options suppressed by gholdengo are really going to change the hazard meta
I agree. It will not. Speaking for me personally, I’m still going to lay spikes and I’m still going to spin block. Not really concerned about Corviknight Defogs since he’s passive af (free switch to breaker). Also the good spikers / rockers beat the removal mons anyway.
 
I agree. It will not. Speaking for me personally, I’m still going to lay spikes and I’m still going to spin block. Not really concerned about Corviknight Defogs since he’s passive af (free switch to breaker). Also the good spikers / rockers beat the removal mons anyway.
100%, this is the biggest thing, like you people are going to lose your shit when people start using Pult to spinblock instead of Ghold, and simply switching in on the Corv defog turn for a free Shadow Ball or Draco

again, worth exploring in a suspect, very powerful offensive and defensive presence, big problem for balance, restricting for stall, worth exploring, but for the so-called "hazard problem" (what even is that btw) NOTHING will change in a post Gholdengo OU
 
Frankly, the hazard issue is more complex than “break the rules to ban gholdengo”, because of how corviknight is so passive, most players uses rapid spin great tusk, gholdengo is mainly doing spin blocking, if they use corviknight, thats there own demise, so spinblockers would basically be doing gholds job, since corviknight is mainly found in the 1000s-1200s , thats why i stopped wanting a gholdengo ban
 
Frankly, the hazard issue is more complex than “break the rules to ban gholdengo”, because of how corviknight is so passive, most players uses rapid spin great tusk, gholdengo is mainly doing spin blocking, if they use corviknight, thats there own demise, so spinblockers would basically be doing gholds job, since corviknight is mainly found in the 1000s-1200s , thats why i stopped wanting a gholdengo ban
Tera Fire Kommo-o can counter Gholdengo, and can even deal meaningful damage with either Fire Punch or Flamethrower depending the set (However an rare Ground / Water Tera Blast from a Choice Specs Gholdengo will OHKO Kommo-o)

With Shadow Ball and Focus Blast immunity thanks to Bulletproof, it's a good counterplay to Gholdengo.

+1 252 SpA Tera Fire Kommo-o Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 396-468 (125.7 - 148.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 SpA Tera Fire Kommo-o Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gholdengo: 396-468 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Phsycal calcs:

+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Tera Fire Kommo-o Fire Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gholdengo: 378-446 (120 - 141.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+1 252 Atk Punching Glove Tera Fire Kommo-o Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 270-320 (71.4 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

However, a non Teralized Kommo-o has to watch out for Dazzling Gleam, it will get obliterated by it. In other hand, at +1 Max speed Jolly / Timid Kommo-o can outspeed the Choice Scarf variants.
 

Baloor

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can we stop pretending corviknight is a bad pokemon? yes it doesnt use defog right now but it soft checks a ton and has performed decently in SCL with a reasonable win rate. its a solid glue for teams that actual benefit from using it and does actually do shit on the teams its used on in high ladder and tour play and is not as "insanely passive" like people in this thread claim. nothing compared to SS Corv but its still a fine pokemon to use.
 
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100%, this is the biggest thing, like you people are going to lose your shit when people start using Pult to spinblock instead of Ghold, and simply switching in on the Corv defog turn for a free Shadow Ball or Draco
Now, I do have to preface that Dragapult is not the same pokemon as gholdengo. Not even close. dragapult does not have the defensive profile that gholdengo has. But, for the sake of argument I will play out this scenario will probably look like.

(opponent switches in pult on Corviknight)

Corviknight used Defog!
The pointed stones disappeared / spikes are gone

(you switch to valiant on either a shadow ball or a draco meteor)

252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 246-291 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(would have at least been 252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Iron Valiant: 246-291 (85.1 - 100.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 2 layers of Spikes)

this may surprise you, but being able to do this thing called "hazard removal" helps out your team, and the removal of hazards in general is something that gholdengo stops entirely while it exists. Additionally, I bet we would see even more spinblockers, maybe even something crazy like iron treads or cryogonal, since rapid spinners would no longer get eviscerated and denied by gholdengo, and the barrier to entry would no longer be "can it beat gholdengo"


Now lets see how this same turn goes with Gholdengo.

(opponent switches in gholdengo)

Defog gets blocked

and now you either switch out and pray you don't get blasted by Make It Rain, or you gamble that they don't switch in an iron valiant counter after a Nasty Plot or something.

And for the spinblocking point, yeah. Ghost types can block rapid spin. That is a thing they do. But you can at least like thunder wave the dragapult and try and knock off w/ Great Tusk or something. You have actual open counterplay against a pult or a driftblim or whatever the pro-gholdengo people will bring up as the "Gholdengo replacement". You aren't limited to "oh guess they have gholdengo. this mon I have out is set up fodder" or "that is an air balloon, guess I have to switch out my great tusk and take 78% on both my tusk and my switchin just to take the gholdengo off the field".
And like pointed up above, Corviknight isn't some passive wall that sits around. It's a legitimately good soft check to a ton of stuff, and Bpress ain't too passive on it last I checked.

And I will once again bring it up, but reverting 4 turns of progress(spikes + sr) in one turn(removal option) is a pretty good trade-off to make. You can always set up spikes again, but they won't be there for at least one turn. Thats the whole point. Gholdengo being in the tier in general makes it so that you can never safely get the chance to remove the pressure on your team and switch in your low HP enamorous or something
 
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With all this talk on suspect tests
Why isn't there something like ou-experimental?
Put all the changes we want to test there (like, for example, ban gholdengo) and see how it affects the meta
If we like it, make the change permanent on OU; if we don't then no big deal
 
With all this talk on suspect tests
Why isn't there something like ou-experimental?
Put all the changes we want to test there (like, for example, ban gholdengo) and see how it affects the meta
If we like it, make the change permanent on OU; if we don't then no big deal
It's been tried in the past, but all it does is end up dividing the playerbase into those who want the ban (trial ladder) and those who don't (normal ladder), resulting in longer queue times and lower quality games.
 
I agree. It will not. Speaking for me personally, I’m still going to lay spikes and I’m still going to spin block. Not really concerned about Corviknight Defogs since he’s passive af (free switch to breaker). Also the good spikers / rockers beat the removal mons anyway.
Let's not pretend that Corviknight isn't being supported in the back by something that compensates for that passivity. Sure you get a free switch but that switch is also extremely telegraphed so click defog and then switch into the wall on the attack or setup move and now what? This happened in past gens with otherwise passive defoggers and it's going to happen now, so gholdengo's removal will actually fix the hazard issue by letting people remove them with a pokemon that is no longer making you play 5v6 most of the time
 
100%, this is the biggest thing, like you people are going to lose your shit when people start using Pult to spinblock instead of Ghold, and simply switching in on the Corv defog turn for a free Shadow Ball or Draco

again, worth exploring in a suspect, very powerful offensive and defensive presence, big problem for balance, restricting for stall, worth exploring, but for the so-called "hazard problem" (what even is that btw) NOTHING will change in a post Gholdengo OU
I agree. It will not. Speaking for me personally, I’m still going to lay spikes and I’m still going to spin block. Not really concerned about Corviknight Defogs since he’s passive af (free switch to breaker). Also the good spikers / rockers beat the removal mons anyway.
Frankly, the hazard issue is more complex than “break the rules to ban gholdengo”, because of how corviknight is so passive, most players uses rapid spin great tusk, gholdengo is mainly doing spin blocking, if they use corviknight, thats there own demise, so spinblockers would basically be doing gholds job, since corviknight is mainly found in the 1000s-1200s , thats why i stopped wanting a gholdengo ban
People seem to be glossing over the point that technically the spinners we have are a lot more reliable as removal than our defogger is in a hypothetical post :Gholdengo: meta, I mean tusk usage says it all there. If we ban ghold spinblocking tusk gets way harder since well frankly, :Dragapult: can't take a hit to save its life. So it makes it way easier for tusk since it doesn't need to worry about air balloon ghold switching in and heavily crippling it. Point being, Great Tusk actually becomes reliable to remove hazards as if Pult tries to spinblock it it risks being immediately OKHO'd by Knock Off. Also Treads might actually become much better as hazard removal if :Gholdengo: goes as well, as it wouldn't have to worry about having to pivot around Ghold nearly as much, and Treads does not have to actively worry about getting destroyed by Ghold either if Ghold goes in DLC and can also safely deal with Pult trying to spinblock, as it can just click a move and OKHO it thanks to Pult having less than stellar bulk.

The hazard problem could still be there, but I think it would be far more manageable the moment Ghold goes due to the fact our spinners are pretty good and frankly Dragapult is terrible at taking hits and doesn't have nearly as good longevity as Ghold. Point being, Pult can spinblock but not super duper well compared to Ghold, because :Dragapult: isn't nearly as fat of a pokemon as :Gholdengo:
 
People seem to be glossing over the point that technically the spinners we have are a lot more reliable as removal than our defogger is in a hypothetical post :Gholdengo: meta
I think I gotta disagree with this statement here. Y'all are forgetting how stupid bulky Mandibuzz is and the only reason it's not being used currently is because it can't touch Gholdengo as well as being passive. In a post spaghetti meta, Mandibuzz will almost certainly see more usage because of how it learns defog, is bulky, and is the only other decent one in the gen as of now.
 
I'm a bit confused why your analysis doesn't take into account that most hazard setters in this meta get worn down as well. Ting-Lu, Samurott-Hisui, Glimmora, Garchomp, Greninja, Meowscarada, even Ogerpon - they all lack good recovery options and don't tend to last too long if they stay out on the field. Clodsire is the exception to this, but it is an extremely passive mon sitting down in C+ that's hardly splashable.
The main hazard stackers that I see on these structures are Ting-Lu and Samurott-Hisui. I purposely used Ting-Lu as an example because it is the easiest to use on these structures.

I do think that Ogerpon-Wellspring is a good spikes setter due to the fact that it can threaten so much, but it's a lot easier to wear down. Therefore, I will not mention this mon.

The thing about Ting-Lu is that, yes, you can wear it down, but there are a lot of mons that Ting-Lu can switch into and take near-negligible damage; enough times for your Great Tusk to get paralyzed. I also did not bring up the fact that Ting-Lu can use rest, which, on a mon that genuinely is as bulky as Giratina, if not bulkier, is not a bad option. In some cases, using rest over a traditional healing move can be nice to clear status that can be quite crippling.

The other thing is that the sample structure I used only included 3 mons; it is pretty easy to even further restrict your opponent by running something like wish Clefable to heal off damage that you might take, as well as the fact that Great Tusk might be required to deal with another mon at hand, causing it to get chipped down a lot faster.
The other common hazard setter on these structures is Samurott-Hisui, but it is paired quite a bit with Ting-Lu, which even further makes it difficult for you to remove hazards, as now, not only do you have to wear down a literal Giratina, you also need to wear down another hazard setter that, in the process of setting hazards, wears you down in return.

I did not mention the other hazard setters in the metagame, as those are often used on hyper offense, especially Glimmora, Meowscarada, and Greninja, and Garchomp really does not like this meta anyways.

Clodsire is also, in my opinion, underexplored as it is the best Zapdos counter, at least in my opinion, and can hit Great Tusk with toxic on the switch, but for the sake of arguing about common teams, let's just assume that it truly is a mere C+ tier mon and deem it irrelevant.

You still have problems, and honestly, once hazards go up, Ting-Lu has done most of what it needs to aside from maybe checking a few threats. Even one layer of spikes can cause huge issues if you cannot break within a fixed amount of time against your opponent's solid defensive core, which should not be neglected. I even mentioned that you can close the game off with fast pivot spam, which is a genuine thing that people do.

I also mentioned that you can still beat these structures if you find a way to properly break, but looking at the structures at the moment, you don't see that much of bulky offense or balance, which brings us to the structures you see in this meta; hyper offense, very few bulky offense structures, and hazard stack. You might see some balance teams, but they tend to feel underwhelming. Stall also exists, but stall is currently in a pretty difficult metagame to deal with.

My point is, yes, you CAN break through these structures, but the structures that do well enough against these teams to break are generally hyper offense-esque structures and those that can break through it have lots of counterplay options. I mentioned Dragonite, booster Iron Valiant, and even boots Zamazenta is seeing usage on these teams, which do well into even these offensive structures.

Overall, there is counterplay to these teams, but there's just so much you need to account to that it restricts teambuilding heavily. Many teams opt to just use boots on most of their mons + a knock absorber, which even further limits teambuilding, as there is only so much you can build using this.

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I see that people are talking about Corviknight, so I step in.

I love Corviknight, as it is one of the most reliable defoggers outside of Gholdengo.

I see an argument that many people use in that using Corviknight to try and defog gives up momentum, but so does going for hazards in a lot of ways. I think this creates a nice interaction honestly, as if anything could worry-free just defog hazards, hazards would genuinely be underwhelming and worthless to try and get up, but if hazards are too easy to get up and keep up, you get these hazard stack structures that we see a lot nowadays.

Even in a Gholdengo meta, Corviknight is pretty good. Even without defog, Corviknight is a great defensive pivot, a good check to a lot of things (such as pivot Ogerpon-Wellspring), and is fairly resistant to hazards + toxic, which is really nice as a comfort mon, even against Gholdengo hazard stack.
 
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I just looked the results of the survey.

it is kinda interesting how the non-qualified playerbase only hated sneasler just slightly more than kingambit while the qualified playerbase hated it to the point of it being quickbanned.

edit: I fixed weavile to sneasler.
 
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I just looked the results of the survey.

it is kinda interesting how the non-qualified playerbase only hated weavile just slightly more than kingambit while the qualified playerbase hated it to the point of it being quickbanned.
Former ru pokemon Weavile got quick banned?, smogons banning all the wallbreakers!

gen 9 ou is becoming a BALANCE FEST!11111
 
Former ru pokemon Weavile got quick banned?, smogons banning all the wallbreakers!

gen 9 ou is becoming a BALANCE FEST!11111
I knew it, Weavile is coming back for us! They’re coming. We’ve taken out their cousin, but that won’t stop them. They gain the power of the Indigo Disk to potentially get a powerful move that they’ve lost for so long:Triple Axel. This is dangerous to Pokémon society as they are very fast and strong, not to mention that they regained Knock Off with the power of the teal mask a couple months ago. I warned all of you. But you never listened. And now, I return to the depths of the Ladder of OU, ready to destroy anyone in my path as I climb to the top.

But for real though, Weavile is getting really good.
 
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