Where? Which Pokémon should not be banned?
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v3
- Thread starter TPP
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well, let's see, i should say only the ones that the community didn't want to be banned oh wait that's none of them
seriously, anyone advocating for fewer bans is advocating for less democracy
don't banned sneasler
Nah, I'm joking. Glad it's gone. This post is about to get long, so
I'd like to chime in on "Modern OU" because... it's reflective of how every other tier of Smogon is run. They ban problematic mons in order to shape a better format. During early stages like this, there are a LOT of bans in other formats. Right now, UUBL is only three (3)pokemon, but there have been several suspects and bans there as well. They banned Iron Hands pre-DLC and unbanned it after DLC. RUBL has 10. NUBL has 17 (I think? Not sure how to count forms like Oricorio). Does OU have 20? Yes. And each of these formats will have more bans before the end. Bans are a part of balance. Could we have fewer? Yes, but we can handle that Post-DLC2 after we see what the meta is then. Right now, every single pokemon on the current OU banlist deserves to be there. Each and every one of them is broken in OU as it current stands.
Just to compare, I'm looking at the stats from Gen8 Ubers from August 2022 at 1630elo (or whatever the term is) to craft what was banned to Ubers but didn't see play. The following banned pokemon from last generation were "OUBL" (didn't see 4.52% Ubers usage in the last month of competitive play):
I believe the only ones actively banned to Ubers via QB or suspect were
Maybe too, but if that happened, it was while I wasn't looking at the forums.
was reverse-suspected in an attempt to add it to OU, and was determined too strong.
"But Brie, that's only three bans!!"
Correct, but the following pokemon were banned to ubers last generation and maintained what smogon recognizes as the threshold usage stat:
I believe the only ones actively banned to Ubers via QB or suspect were
Maybe
too, but if that happened, it was while I wasn't looking at the forums. was reverse-suspected in an attempt to add it to OU, and was determined too strong."But Brie, that's only three bans!!"
Correct, but the following pokemon were banned to ubers last generation and maintained what smogon recognizes as the threshold usage stat:
So yes, we've doubled that this generation, BUT this generation is more active, only a year young, and has new DLC on the horizon.
Long-term, I think the banlist will ultimately be shorter than it currently is. However, we won't reach that point until after DLC2 and months of balance and careful assessment.
I think what we've done is exactly what Smogon is meant to do: Cultivate a relatively balanced and healthy metagame that is enjoyable for the larger playerbase. Every single pokemon banned right now currently belongs on that banlist. And if anyone wants to know which of our problematic faves are thriving in Ubers, here's some more stats:
Uber by usage
- 5.29%
- 4.97%
- 19.63%
- 4.97%
- 7.26%
- 6.34%
- 5.39%
- 10.13%*
"OUBL" by usage
- 3.24%
- 3.86%
- 1.63%*
- 1.88%
- 3.35%
- 2.67%
- 1.50%
- 1.40%
- 1.59%
- 2.01%
Don't do anything with these numbers, because it doesn't actually mean anything. Just look at them. A little less than half of what we banned are thriving in Ubers. And i'm sure someone will figure out some cracked Electric Seed Sneasler build up there where it can do exactly what it did in OU, but actually have to answer to something faster than it even after Unburden.
- 5.29% - 4.97% - 19.63% - 4.97% - 7.26% - 6.34% - 5.39% - 10.13%*"OUBL" by usage
- 3.24% - 3.86% - 1.63%* - 1.88% - 3.35% - 2.67% - 1.50% - 1.40% - 1.59% - 2.01%Don't do anything with these numbers, because it doesn't actually mean anything. Just look at them. A little less than half of what we banned are thriving in Ubers. And i'm sure someone will figure out some cracked Electric Seed Sneasler build up there where it can do exactly what it did in OU, but actually have to answer to something faster than it even after Unburden.
In conclusion, just try to enjoy the last few weeks of DLC1. Maybe this banlist is longer than some folks like, but every action taken has been for the better of the current OU format. This isn't the end of all tiering, but it certainly has been a WILD year for pokemon. We'll get through it. Until a time where the meta feels stable, fun, and healthy, remember the wise words of Elite Four Karen "Strong Pokemon. Weak Pokemon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites."
Okok bro I am on phone the Screen Is So small I can't write messages w/o any flaw in ortgograph And i'm not helped as my autocorrect isn't set to english
You can’t really ban “Recovery moves having only 8 PP” and the concept of Powercreep itself.
Someone mentioned a few pages ago that if we keep banning offensive mons they think itll suddenly swing to a super stall metagame. Personally I think we are a Gholdengo vote away from seeing a resurgence in defensive mons and structures. If it really becomes REALLY awful after Gholdengo goes, I would be okay with bringing one of the closer bans we got back into OU. Something like RM or maybe something else depending on what rises. Also depends a lot on what we get in DLC2.
Urshifu-R? jk unless..?
Anyways has anyone else seen the new tera type leaks :)
Urshifu-R? jk unless..?
Anyways has anyone else seen the new tera type leaks :)
Short answer: in ubers, koraidon>sneasler.Sneasler
Nah, I'm joking. Glad it's gone. This post is about to get long, so
I'd like to chime in on "Modern OU" because... it's reflective of how every other tier of Smogon is run. They ban problematic mons in order to shape a better format. During early stages like this, there are a LOT of bans in other formats. Right now, UUBL is only three (3)pokemon, but there have been several suspects and bans there as well. They banned Iron Hands pre-DLC and unbanned it after DLC. RUBL has 10. NUBL has 17 (I think? Not sure how to count forms like Oricorio). Does OU have 20? Yes. And each of these formats will have more bans before the end. Bans are a part of balance. Could we have fewer? Yes, but we can handle that Post-DLC2 after we see what the meta is then. Right now, every single pokemon on the current OU banlist deserves to be there. Each and every one of them is broken in OU as it current stands.
Totaling that up, we ultimately have 8 or 9 pokemon banned to Ubers in Gen 8.Just to compare, I'm looking at the stats from Gen8 Ubers from August 2022 at 1630elo (or whatever the term is) to craft what was banned to Ubers but didn't see play. The following banned pokemon from last generation were "OUBL" (didn't see 4.52% Ubers usage in the last month of competitive play):
I believe the only ones actively banned to Ubers via QB or suspect were
Maybe
"But Brie, that's only three bans!!"
Correct, but the following pokemon were banned to ubers last generation and maintained what smogon recognizes as the threshold usage stat:
So yes, we've doubled that this generation, BUT this generation is more active, only a year young, and has new DLC on the horizon.
Long-term, I think the banlist will ultimately be shorter than it currently is. However, we won't reach that point until after DLC2 and months of balance and careful assessment.
I think what we've done is exactly what Smogon is meant to do: Cultivate a relatively balanced and healthy metagame that is enjoyable for the larger playerbase. Every single pokemon banned right now currently belongs on that banlist. And if anyone wants to know which of our problematic faves are thriving in Ubers, here's some more stats:
Uber by usage
"OUBL" by usage
Don't do anything with these numbers, because it doesn't actually mean anything. Just look at them. A little less than half of what we banned are thriving in Ubers. And i'm sure someone will figure out some cracked Electric Seed Sneasler build up there where it can do exactly what it did in OU, but actually have to answer to something faster than it even after Unburden.
In conclusion, just try to enjoy the last few weeks of DLC1. Maybe this banlist is longer than some folks like, but every action taken has been for the better of the current OU format. This isn't the end of all tiering, but it certainly has been a WILD year for pokemon. We'll get through it. Until a time where the meta feels stable, fun, and healthy, remember the wise words of Elite Four Karen "Strong Pokemon. Weak Pokemon. That is only the selfish perception of people. Truly skilled trainers should try to win with their favorites."
Long answer: Nah sry It's midnight At mine i'm not gonna waste 30 mins writing some shit no one's gonna read
Hey I agree! Ban dozo, Then Ban ghold. Imi dozo Is Just a counter argument to Too many things to be authorized. Its physical bulk Is equal to GIRATINA And Its special, While looking not that Good, Is Still bigger than MEGA GARDEVOIR. Combined with unaware And great water Type, you can't really oneshot it. really An issue that makes Too many broken mon allowed by nroken checks broken but let's not a say It's broken So It's okay
So the criteria of a ban is "can't one shot it" now? HO brain rot is on another level
I think we are a couple dozen mons away from a true stall resurgence given that there are a bunch of mons lurking down in UU that are straight up stall killers pushed out by the offensive power of OU. They could easily come back up to handle stall if need be. There might be a critical mass issue where a specific stall team becomes too hard to handle because all of it's good answers got booted, but stall is so far from fine right now that no one should be worried about it.
Hoopa-U, Enarmous-Therian, Meowscarda, Breloom, Ursaluna, Garg are all still lurking around and are incredibly hard for stall to handle without specific answers, especially with Tera in the mix.
Hoopa-U, Enarmous-Therian, Meowscarda, Breloom, Ursaluna, Garg are all still lurking around and are incredibly hard for stall to handle without specific answers, especially with Tera in the mix.
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A true stall resurgence would be great! And the hypothetical you're describing has never happened before and certainly will never happen in a meta where Tera exists, so I wouldn't be too worried. What could be on this so-called unbreakable team? The nigh invincible Clodsire and Alomomola?
Most extremely anti stall Pokémon aren't anywhere close to a ban by the way. I don't foresee Heatran, Hoopa-Unbound, Ursaluna, Slowking-G, Hatterene, or Crawdaunt appearing on the radar anytime soon
Lol, gliscor meta was less than a week ago. Stall/ semi stall was legit very strong, probably the strongest style, and very frustratingly hard to break.
Tera is the only reason I think it can happen if threat density comes down to a certain level and specific mons like Gholdengo get axed. Normally stall always has issues with something, but in the same way that it's currently possible for offensive teams to hose all defensive checks via tera, I think it's theoretically possible that a stall team could exist that using tera extremely well covers such a large portion of the format that it requires a specific offensive answers to deal with. I don't think it's going to be a general stall resurgence unless a dozen or more mons get booted, but I think there might be an instance where a specific stall strategy becomes too hard to handle despite the rest of the metagame being offensive oriented. Peering in to the crystal ball it'd probably be some form of hazard stacking regenerator stall, but it could come from out of no where.
Yes and that is sadly not the case anymore, this was not the case in the Sneasler meta at all, it really was not as "hard to break" as you think even in gliscors meta, simply put ogerpon-wellspring on the same team as Gholdengo, or simply use Heatran or Garg, and it's pretty unlikely you Will lose
Yeah but a team comprised of what Pokémon? Stop inventing stall boogeymen and look at the real hyper offensive dominance in front of us
Youre acting like the triple water/poison core isnt already finding a decent amount of success on the high ladder. Dozo, amoongus, mola, pex/clef, blissey, and clod is a completely viable stall team that I see finding success fairly high on the ladder and was even played in OU last chance finals (It just barely lost to grassy terrain).
I am aware of this team, I use it all the time. It is very limited by the fact that It can only Tera once, teams these days are stacked with stored power spam, trick nasty plot Ghold, brokerpon wellspring, Glowking, literally everyone is using Heatran, paralyze spam is becoming popular, and because that team can't fit Talonflame it loses to Tera gambit like 40% of the time because it has to come down to sleep talk calls. That Pokémon is on 40% of teams. It's a relatively viable stall but extremely matchup dependent
Kenpwnchi
formerly Pwndkthnx
After getting some well deserved rest, I woke up and came to the conclusion that Cinderace is up next. Cinderace counters Gholdengo, Kingambit, Rillaboom, and so on, so forth. Cinderace can be built in so many different ways. Personally, I like TT Grass Cinderace with Tera Blast (which allows it to counter mons like GT and Cloddy).
I wonder how much more viable it will be with ghold gone, wellspring gone, gambit gone, and heatran having fallen off due to grassy terrain becoming less popular. You might even start to think that it would become particularly overbearing. Even just a couple of these pieces gone could seriously restrict offensive team building, with counters less readily available. + wellspring isnt even good into that team amoongus walls it infinite
Hello CEO of Big Tera Captain here how ya doin. Stall can be a bit of an issue and its pretty possible we get to a metagame where stall takes over and becomes so flexible with tera that its able to wall everything. Consider a scenario where I have a stall team thats able to deal with all the big threats of OU but loses to a few niche options like Crawdaunt, Extrasensory Greninja, and Tera Fire Maushold. Currently I could flex my tera into a fitting all these scenarios with Tera Fight Corv, Tera Dark GKing, and Tera Rock Ting Lu (just a scenario dont think about these too hard). This stall is able to cover so many of its potential breakers by using tera and only really loses if it runs into a combination of many of these mons (which may not even be good team structure). Now if we only have one available tera option, I now have to CHOOSE which of these potential breakers I want to be able to answer, leaving me open for the other 2 to potentially destroy me. Instead of stall being able to choose their tera on a matchup to matchup basis they now have to commit to one tera leaving them easily breakable. You can get Tera Captain for just 3 easy payments of $19.99 just call toll free at 1-800-BIG-TERA
Well I mean we're in OU we're not here to have PDON Uh? Dozo can easely break through every thing hiyting ohysical except if you get a goat like gallade leaf blade but dozo sure isn't very usual but sure Is a mess in the team if any of the 5 others can coverb its weaknesses And.win against dozo counterplay
I didn't post here bc I've been busy but these last days of Gliscor and Sneasler I've tried Psyspam with Sneasler Cress Gambit Polteageist and Unburden Drifblim for some reason and got to 1450 for the first time. Mon was unreasonably stupid, my elo might decline but it's for the better.
How the hell did we go from HO nightmare to Stallfest with Gliscor to GTerrain HO with Sneasler to full-on Stall so quickly? Genuinely asking
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