1. Natdex isn't a good comparison tho. I remember Wake and Ursaluna OG were banned there, but they are perfectly fine in OU.
i dunno, i think it might actually be a better defogger with ghold gone because then it's free to run levitate instead of neutralizing gas. that gives it an immunity to most hazards without a rocks weakness or a need for boots, so it can come in repeatedly on hazard stack. levitate also gives it a fantastic matchup against ting-lu to pair with its already-good matchups against hamurott and ribombee, so it's a defogger that's also good against the best hazard setters in the tier. lastly, it also has a solid matchup spread against some other prominent mons—namely, levitate makes it a solid and consistent tusk and rillaboom switch-in, it can serve as an emergency check to some valiant sets, and it's bulky enough to live a +2 waterpon ivy cudgel and wisp back. it needs wish support but it's definitely a good sleeper pick even in a gholdless meta
Just because banning Gholdengo won’t completely fix OU, it will solve the major problem of hazards being so hard to remove because of its mere presence in the meta. For Gholdengo’s specific case, using NatDex as a comparison is fine as it demonstrates that even with all of the hazard removal options that have ever existed, including Moltres and other things that threaten Gholdengo, Gholdengo still ended up being a major problem for the tier. The tier even has full Pursuit and Knock Off distribution, and still. That’s how bad of a problem Good As Gold is. If Good As Gold didn’t block Defog, Gholdengo would be an outright healthy presence in OU. But because Good As Gold can just casually block out Defog and Gholdengo has the typing to block out Rapid Spin, it ends up completely nullifying hazard removal and normalizing using Rapid Spin and Defog less, making hazards and screens even more overwhelming than they already are. Yeah, Defog’s distribution being axed really hurts, but the problem would definitely be less significant if the things that do get Defog can just, you know, click the damn move.
Ok, so now your hazards are gone and your Valiant comes in. Cool, don’t give a shit. I have an Amoonguss/Clef/Skele/Pex in the back to keep you from making any progress. Basic teambuilding.
ogerpon-W loses to physically defensive mandibuzz since it cant deal enough damage w/ unboosted ivy cudgel but setting up an SD gets you killed by foul play. ogerpon-C is arguably even more troublesome for the bulkier teams mandibuzz sees play on (especially with no gholdengo) but it is far from uncounterable, pokemon also seen on fat such as amoonguss and corviknight can handle it quite nicely. mandibuzz itself can even emergency check ogerpon-C with the appropriate defensive tera. fat certainly has trouble with ogerpon and its forms but none of them are uncounterable, mandibuzz even matches up well into two of its forms
Maybe like Amoongus. The rest aren't really viable in this format.
i don't think any one single action will instantly solve ou, but a ghold ban is the closest possible action to a "press this button to solve ou" button right now, and it's the only action the council could take that has a chance to not be instantly reversed when dlc2 drops
I mean, maybe because of a certain shit eating grin cheese stick
I think gweezing is just gonna be a better mon overall - you mentionned ting lu, which is currently made worse by ghold's presence imo, funnily enough.
as a Conkeldurr Enjoyurr™, Conk isn't forced into running an all-out attacker guts set. Lest you forget, it has both Iron Fist and Sheer Force that can boost its power enough to let it invest in some bulk, and it has STAB Drain Punch (boosted by iron fist but un/fortunately unboosted by sheer force) to keep itself healthy. In addition, it has nice priority in Mach Punch, Knock for hitting Ghosts and general utility, and a surprisingly robust coverage movepool, featuring the elemental punches, rock coverage, Poison Jab, and High Horsepower. I don't think it has problems with 4MSS, more that it has options to hit specific things with all its coverage, as it only really NEEDS fighting STAB/Knoff and in this case Defog to be effective. The issue is that fighting really isn't a good defensive typing, and since most of its bulk is made of its HP, it gains less from Drain Punch so it's not as self-sustaining as it should be on paper.
Clef not being viable in this format is quite the take! Skeledirge also has only gotten better and better since the DLC drop. Pex is fringe but still extremely good on stall and tbh hasn't been tinkered with on BO or balance since prehome but still forms the same great core with Garganacl
This is a great example of people using Ghold as a scapegoat for every little thing about thé metagame
Skeledirge is a strong defensive mon on bulkier builds Mandi fits on. Checking Zama, Moth, Valiant, etc due to its typing and Unaware. Clef being dismissed as “not really viable” is just plain wrong. It is an excellent utility pick and saw top 5 usage at SCL a few weeks ago. It would no doubt be even better in a theoretical Gholdless meta.
Gholdless Meta: A Post-Gholdengo Meta. It's gonna be iconic. I can see it now. The first day will be chaos. I predict status usage increase OFF BAIL. Hazards, being, primarily, status based will mean the return of the Hazards Meta to full effect. Personally, I can't see my baby Great Tusk holding things down by itself for too long. Not having a, general, mon to just scare stuff away is pivotal. Once people start loading their Great Tusk counters up, it's hazard central we go. And, as an advent user of Thunder Wave, I will be paralyzing everything in sight.
Hi. Nat Dex player who voted to ban Gholdengo here. Removing it improved the tier because it opened up our options from just the 2-3 consistent removers (Lando, Tusk, Moltres) to a significantly wider list of viable removers (we got like 5+ more viable defoggers on top of those three). Beyond it also was extremely potent vs bulky structures who struggled to damage it and punish its set up as a result of common anti set up tactics being blocked by it. These forces together made it a controversial pokemon. It was a problem for its potency vs these teams and the slashing of a significant number of otherwise viable defoggers.
Regular OU has one viable defogger, so removing Gholdengo would not significantly improve that issue as much as people like to believe. If you want to ban Gholdengo, ban it for its overbearing pressure on bulkier teams (while still not being useless vs offense, though obviously very tolerable there).
Ting Lu... Isn't made worse by Ghold's presence. It's literally a check to it. What?
I haven’t been super active the past couple months so you can take this with a grain of salt as it was a different meta game back then, but my solution as a rain player to the ogerpon-w problem when it was first released was to use defensive toxicroak. It hardwalls most waterpon sets and matches up well with Rilla, Dozo, and Pex, who also give rain issues. The main issue is it can be a bit passive at times, but in certain matchups it really puts in work. I’m just gonna quote myself here since I already talked about it in the past:
I'm not... I mean... But the suspect and... God knows how many pages of discussion... How did we miss that Gliscor gets killed by an Ice type move... Gotta call up Finch maaaan he's gonna be so pissed... Went over this so many times but...
I mean, Garganacl frustration was pretty valid. I think it still is/will be in coming months. Maybe not banworthy, but definitely unfun to play against, since Garganacl can easily crush an entire team, or at least 2-4 mons before dying, if you don't have answers to it AND its Tera (e.g., you need Rillaboom AND Slowking-Galar in case of Tera Fairy, or a hard counter like Encore Magic Guard Clefable, etc.)
+2 252 SpA Gholdengo Make It Rain vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 249-294 (48.4 - 57.1%) -- 46.9% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Damn guess we will drop Gliscor back to OU then, he solved it
