252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Giratina: 400-472 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recoveryGiratina-A for OU.
Motion to unban.
Nah we good
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Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]
- Thread starter TPP
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Nah we good
I agree that it should be retested down the line:)
Guys the 1.5x -> 1.3x nerf was the same one Tapu Koko received and it didn’t really impact its viability between gens at all, I highly doubt it would impact Regieleki enough for it to potentially be healthy.
Proposition:
I wonder if Drifblim has a use in OU outside of being a rather fantastic Ursaluna check.
Immune to both its mega powerful STABs so it has plenty of opportunity.
and even if Ursaluna kills it with a coverage move, it's taking at least 1/4th of its health with Aftermath when Ursaluna is already on a timer with its burn and potential hazard damage. It has the means to stall it out with Strength Sap. Unfortunately, it can't do a whole lot to it offensively since Ursaluna itself is immune to Ghost.
Drifblim doesn't like all the dark-types or even other ghost-types hanging around tho.
Immune to both its mega powerful STABs so it has plenty of opportunity.
and even if Ursaluna kills it with a coverage move, it's taking at least 1/4th of its health with Aftermath when Ursaluna is already on a timer with its burn and potential hazard damage. It has the means to stall it out with Strength Sap. Unfortunately, it can't do a whole lot to it offensively since Ursaluna itself is immune to Ghost.
Drifblim doesn't like all the dark-types or even other ghost-types hanging around tho.
Not saying Eleki wouldn't be too good anyway (as long as tera exists feels like it probs would be), but idk why we're pretending a ~15% damage nerf to the main moves it's spamming is completely meaningless.
Unless Drifblim has other, unexplored utility in OU, people actually using it to check Ursaluna would be evidence that cocaine bear is too much for OU. Given that it's not new to SV and dropped to NU, I highly doubt any such niche exists.
I saw people talking about Mismaguis at some point, sounds a bit better since can tera and keep the ground inmunity if needed on other match ups. tbh i don't think it is really neccesary, Ursa is strong but not as unstoppable as a lot of people have says it is.
Because what made Eleki broken was its borderline unlockable volt switches on top of absurd speed that let it pivot on everything and be near impossible to punish offensively, chipping things and eventually just sweeping (or letting something else sweep). So the nerf functionally doesn't change anything about it.
KamenOH
formerly DynamaxBestMeta
Oh so a new mon can have new shit to counter whats hip, but we cant bring up new ideas? Fuckin hogwash double standards, like how we supposedly dont know what set magearna is, yet team comp and basic scouting tell a lot.
Basically for Eleki the question I think is, has a Pokemon whose specs/band set was completely broken, ever had a perfectly underwhelming life orb set? Because that's the nerf we're talking about here, a specs multiplier to a LO multiplier. I think the answer here is no.
At the very beginning of gen 9 we thought protosynthesis was x1.5. We banned Flutter Mane basically day one. Protosynthesis was actually x1.3 except for speed. I may have my timeline a little crooked but I don't think that's grounds to retest Flutter Mane.
Unless Eleki's damage output was super borderline, or unless there's a specific calc that gives it a new viable check?
At the very beginning of gen 9 we thought protosynthesis was x1.5. We banned Flutter Mane basically day one. Protosynthesis was actually x1.3 except for speed. I may have my timeline a little crooked but I don't think that's grounds to retest Flutter Mane.
Unless Eleki's damage output was super borderline, or unless there's a specific calc that gives it a new viable check?
OU Council put the cart before the Mudsdale
Samurott-Hisui @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Sharpness
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Naive Nature
- Ceaseless Edge
- Taunt
- Knock Off
- Hydro Pump
I feel like a special attack is essential somewhere if your team needs a quick answer to the great tusk switch in (very common) or the defensive lando switch in.
There’s lots of viable moves, sucker punch, Aqua jet, Aqua gutter, razor shell, depends on what the team needs really. Currently taunt is for magearna and other misc things like defog, knock off is utility, hydro pump is the tusk deleter.
personally I think sash lead is not an ideal set, and anything other than HDB needs a hazard mitigation strategy in mind. AV sounds good if it can lure out things or at least to switch into gholdengo.
I'm just surprised how we didn't know of this sooner.
Wouldn't the data already be in the game for implementation, especially for nat-dex OU?
I genuinely support unbanning it after tomorrow's ban wave, just see what happens why the fuck not, worst that can happen is the nerf is meaningless and we re-ban it.
Ya’ll can’t recreate these odds even if you tried to, missing ceaseless edge 3x and hydro pump 1x all in a row.
Just did the math, 0.05*0.05*0.2*0.05 = 0.000025 = 0.0025% chance, or 2.5 times per 100 000 sequences.
can anyone reproduce something with a lower chance? Lol ..!
I missed heat wave twice in a row against both foes in double once.
Always been a fan of the high powered box art legends which is why I play ubers, but OU intrigued me with the prospect of having a boxart in its metagame. I personally dont fully see what makes the hero form stupidly broken, it has answers and a lot of the arguments are that it needs to get a read right or run more niche moves. I feel like you’d be able to hold it off with a mon like great tusk, the thing that people see as the issue is if it is too much for offensive teams. We will see, I will probably lose interest in OU again if both get banned and instead move to ubers or uu. This has off course no relevance as to what people should vote for. I am simply stating that this is the most invested i have been in an ou metagame since i started playing pokemon
252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Fairy Magearna Fleur Cannon vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Skeledirge: 202-238 (49.1 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO
Unaware backfires...
gets defog and wisp... Struggles to damage ursa though..
My thoughts on Sneasler....
I really hope Sneasler doesn't get quick banned. Yeah Dire Claw is cheap but there are still has it checks and counters. Poison isn't typing you want to be spamming as it has many common resists. I think if the meta can adapt to Garganacal's salt cure with covert cloak it can do the exact same with Sneasler too. Ironically with the same mons. Gholdengo is a great check to Sneasler and while it does have coverage to hit super effectively ( Fire Punch, Shadow Claw, Night Slash) these moves are so weak and can be played around. You can even run more defensive investment and leftovers to completely wall it. It can't even Switcheroo Gholdengo due to it's ability.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 182-216 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Night Slash/Shadow Claw (same base power) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 170-202 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasler also can't do much to physically defensive poison types with covert cloak like Clod, Pex, Tera Ghost/Poison Garganacal since its ability prevents Dire Claw shenanigans and somewhat Glowking.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Tera Poison Garganacl: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Tera Poison Garganacl: 63-75 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 144-170 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 48-57 (10.3 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 78-93 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 61-72 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (20.5 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
These sets might seem a little specific just for one OU pokemon specific sets/mons have been used to counter OU staples before like in previous metas before such as Jirachi/Bronzong were used to wall Tapu Lele and Cofagrigus for Mega Medicham. And all the counters i suggested are already OU caliber pokemon not something trash like Paldea Tauros for Chien Pao. Also Sneasler can definitely break through any counters that arise with such a high attack stat, (130 base) and tera/tera blast, and Switcheroo. Any good wall breaker or sweeper usually has some way, form, or of specific coverage/set to break through its intended counters and checks. For example pre home meta Volcarona could beat any of it's counters with right set and tera such as defensive Substitute tera Grass Giga Drain Volcarona vs Unaware Clodsire, or Tera Blast Ground vs Skelidirge, Garg, and Pex. While it was extremely strong generally it was consider broken or too much for the tier too handle.
The real reason while Sneasler seems broken is because the meta is too fast rn to be running such momentum sacks such as Pex and Garg. And if you were to run these mons you wouldn't be using covert cloak as there are better defensive items such as leftovers and boots for all the broken home mons. For example on your Toxapex you would either run AV for all the special threats in meta such as Enamourus, Volcarona, Wake or Black Sludge to better matchup against the Zamas, Basculegion, and Samorott with the passive recovery.
Also if Sneasler were to prove too strong for the tier I would want them to ban the entire mon not Dire Claw! That would set a bad precedent for tiering and lead to a slippery slope. Smogon bans pokemon and overpowered strategies not fragments of broken BS. I also just think Dire Claw pushes an already good mon over the edge. If Skuntank got Dire Claw there would not be this same outrage for the move to get banned. But when you combine stab Close Combat for any steel types that would potentially come in on Dire Claw that creates a deadly combo.
TLDR; Don't ban Sneasler! Not yet at least. Let the meta develop proper counters for Dire Claw. When meta finally stabilizes Sneasler will become a welcome edition to the tier. A strong wall breaker/sweeper similar to lele. Very strong, in fact extremely strong, but has counter play and is not broken.
I really hope Sneasler doesn't get quick banned. Yeah Dire Claw is cheap but there are still has it checks and counters. Poison isn't typing you want to be spamming as it has many common resists. I think if the meta can adapt to Garganacal's salt cure with covert cloak it can do the exact same with Sneasler too. Ironically with the same mons. Gholdengo is a great check to Sneasler and while it does have coverage to hit super effectively ( Fire Punch, Shadow Claw, Night Slash) these moves are so weak and can be played around. You can even run more defensive investment and leftovers to completely wall it. It can't even Switcheroo Gholdengo due to it's ability.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 182-216 (48.1 - 57.1%) -- 41% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Night Slash/Shadow Claw (same base power) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 170-202 (44.9 - 53.4%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
Sneasler also can't do much to physically defensive poison types with covert cloak like Clod, Pex, Tera Ghost/Poison Garganacal since its ability prevents Dire Claw shenanigans and somewhat Glowking.
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Tera Poison Garganacl: 95-112 (23.5 - 27.7%) -- possible 5HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 140+ Def Tera Poison Garganacl: 63-75 (15.5 - 18.5%) -- possible 8HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 144-170 (31.1 - 36.7%) -- 71.1% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Clodsire: 48-57 (10.3 - 12.3%) -- possible 9HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 78-93 (25.6 - 30.5%) -- guaranteed 4HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 52-62 (17.1 - 20.3%) -- possible 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 61-72 (15.4 - 18.2%) -- possible 6HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Dire Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 81-96 (20.5 - 24.3%) -- guaranteed 5HKO
252 Atk Choice Band Sneasler Night Slash vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Slowking-Galar: 192-226 (48.7 - 57.3%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO
These sets might seem a little specific just for one OU pokemon specific sets/mons have been used to counter OU staples before like in previous metas before such as Jirachi/Bronzong were used to wall Tapu Lele and Cofagrigus for Mega Medicham. And all the counters i suggested are already OU caliber pokemon not something trash like Paldea Tauros for Chien Pao. Also Sneasler can definitely break through any counters that arise with such a high attack stat, (130 base) and tera/tera blast, and Switcheroo. Any good wall breaker or sweeper usually has some way, form, or of specific coverage/set to break through its intended counters and checks. For example pre home meta Volcarona could beat any of it's counters with right set and tera such as defensive Substitute tera Grass Giga Drain Volcarona vs Unaware Clodsire, or Tera Blast Ground vs Skelidirge, Garg, and Pex. While it was extremely strong generally it was consider broken or too much for the tier too handle.
The real reason while Sneasler seems broken is because the meta is too fast rn to be running such momentum sacks such as Pex and Garg. And if you were to run these mons you wouldn't be using covert cloak as there are better defensive items such as leftovers and boots for all the broken home mons. For example on your Toxapex you would either run AV for all the special threats in meta such as Enamourus, Volcarona, Wake or Black Sludge to better matchup against the Zamas, Basculegion, and Samorott with the passive recovery.
Also if Sneasler were to prove too strong for the tier I would want them to ban the entire mon not Dire Claw! That would set a bad precedent for tiering and lead to a slippery slope. Smogon bans pokemon and overpowered strategies not fragments of broken BS. I also just think Dire Claw pushes an already good mon over the edge. If Skuntank got Dire Claw there would not be this same outrage for the move to get banned. But when you combine stab Close Combat for any steel types that would potentially come in on Dire Claw that creates a deadly combo.
TLDR; Don't ban Sneasler! Not yet at least. Let the meta develop proper counters for Dire Claw. When meta finally stabilizes Sneasler will become a welcome edition to the tier. A strong wall breaker/sweeper similar to lele. Very strong, in fact extremely strong, but has counter play and is not broken.
Just waiting for the announcement so people can stop talking about sneasler.
Clod doesn't run physdef and for good reason. So Covert Cloak was and is still a garbage item few mons can run viably at all which is why it became way less common over time.
But more to the point, Sneasler's problem sets are unburden, which can run Tera ground and invalidate basically all the stuff you listed minus Tera ghost Garg. It's extremely short on offensive answers due to the ridiculous speed tier it can hit post unburden, and it's also tough to hold off defensively when dire claw can just hax through supposed answers.
The regi ele question basically boils down to does that 15% less damage change any notable KO’s, if it does I think ele needs to be retested, if it doesn’t, it doesn’t.
Ok but who runs these EVs lol
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