Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Srn]

this is doing the same thing I said. No, it is not basic knowledge, obvious or even necessarily correct that this makes sense. If I asked pretty much anyone I know this prompt:

"You have to ban either the entire Pokemon, or the uncompetitive move that makes the Pokemon broken." They will answer the move.

A better example is Last Respects, a move that basically the entire community was like "Well we have to play dumb and pretend that there is ambiguousness that this shitmon is only Ubers because of the move."

Which honestly was reverse logic anyways because if anything, Basculegion being a good Pokemon makes it a much worse example, being an actually competent Pokemon without Last Respects.

This part of Smogon Tiering Framework assumes people are incorrect, dumb, and do not know things.

The entire slippery slope argument is also the same thing. "What if people are dumb and do this thing after doing this?"

Instead of us just listening to an old policy rigidly, I feel like the community should be trusted to make the game better. Clearly people do not want to ban an entire Pokemon because of a shitty secondary effect for the game on one signature move.

What makes Sneasler broken are obviously uncompetitive elements that are not directly tied to the Pokemon. You know this. I know this. We basically all know this.

But by policy we have to act very stupid, and that an 80 BP move that other than these uncompetitive elements would not be picked, and therefore make the Pokemon not broken, is actually something we cannot even think to comprehend. What if Dire Claw was not broken?! We will never find out because it will never be on another Pokemon this generation, and another meta tool, Pokemon people were excited to use, play with, and seems otherwise pretty fine; must be entirely banned, alas old nerds that wrote things on the internet would curl their hand in disgust.

The reason that there's a higher bar to be reached for moves to be banned rather than pokemon is simple: we tier pokemon, not moves.

It's simpler to ban pokemon to other tiers, and simple is best. Until it's proven that a single move/ability/mechanic is making multiple (but not all) pokemon broken mostly on its own, it's simpler just to ban the mon. There needs to be a reason why we wouldn't let darkshifu back but without wicked blow, or let palafin back without jet punch, etc etc. It is better simply to ban darkshifu/palafin, the pokemon, rather than try to tier moves.

Is there collateral damage to this approach? Absolutely. But what would an OU tier with no "collateral damage" look like? "Calyrex ghost rider in OU just no stabs, kyogre just no water moves, ho-oh but no regen or boots, etc etc. And to make ho-oh balanced in UU, it can't use sacred fire or brave bird down there on top of OU restrictions." Who actually thinks of these restrictions? How do we get the community to vote on these? When do we get the time to suspect test all these restrictions? When will the metagame have time to settle, with every mon being modified to work in every tier, because we try to tier moves and not mons?

I think it is better to accept the collateral damage of banning an entire pokemon and keep things simple.

 

[Ctann]

More tourney games have been decided by a Thunder Wave Paralysis than a Bright Powder or Sand Veil Miss.

noted, and fair point

so at some point Smogons lack of consistency is inherent. I.e. you can’t be consistent! Not a fault of Smogon, it’s just the way the game is designed.

in short: Smogon cannot be consistent about hax, it picks thunder wave to pass, and says nope to sand veil. It says no to dire claw, and yes to sneasler.

Srn can we please use examples that are not base power related but rather RNG related. jet punch and wicked blow are a little different.

otherwise your point is noted, just curious as to what the thoughts are when looking at things from a new perspective, rather than the status quo perspective

 

[Gleaming Moonlight]

The reason that there's a higher bar to be reached for moves to be banned rather than pokemon is simple: we tier pokemon, not moves.

It's simpler to ban pokemon to other tiers, and simple is best. Until it's proven that a single move/ability/mechanic is making multiple (but not all) pokemon broken mostly on its own, it's simpler just to ban the mon. There needs to be a reason why we wouldn't let darkshifu back but without wicked blow, or let palafin back without jet punch, etc etc. It is better simply to ban darkshifu/palafin, the pokemon, rather than try to tier moves.

Is there collateral damage to this approach? Absolutely. But what would an OU tier with no "collateral damage" look like? "Calyrex ghost rider in OU just no stabs, kyogre just no water moves, ho-oh but no regen or boots, etc etc. And to make ho-oh balanced in UU, it can't use sacred fire or brave bird down there on top of OU restrictions." I think it is better to accept the collateral damage of banning an entire pokemon and keep things simple.

there is a world of difference between "this one move is banned" and "this one mon cant use this item and ability" and this discussion would be healthier if people stopped assuming that the former will lead to the latter

 

[MattC (Banned)]

there is a world of difference between "this one move is banned" and "this one mon cant use this item and ability" and this discussion would be healthier if people stopped assuming that the former will lead to the latter

Finchinator, and a few others stated if ONE EVOLUTIONARY LINE that learns a move that's a problem, they ban the mon. Annihilape without Rage Fist is just a UU calibur Primeape. And if you were to ban signature moves, we'd have a lot of unessecary bans on stuff that gets pushed over the edge with said move.

 

[Ctann]

Finchinator, and a few others stated if ONE EVOLUTIONARY LINE that learns a move that's a problem, they ban the mon. Annihilape without Rage Fist is just a UU calibur Primeape. And if you were to ban signature moves, we'd have a lot of unessecary bans on stuff that gets pushed over the edge with said move.

literally everyone bringing up the concept of banning a move is already acknowledging the Smogon precedent for banning Pokémon over moves makes sense.

this is questioning whether there is validity in an exception when it is RNG that pushes things over the line.

this is due to other precedents where some RNG is chosen to be banned (kings rock, etc), whilst other RNG aspects are not (thunderwave, etc).

if anything this will create a different type of precedent. Serene grace was never deemed too broken, but in this hypothetical if a really good Pokémon got it as an exclusive before togekiss/jirachi, then it would ban it for all the other users later. Then it would need to be “unbanned” if togekjss/jirachi were deemed okay with it. Kinda creates a new loop lol.

 

[Gleaming Moonlight]

Finchinator, and a few others stated if ONE EVOLUTIONARY LINE that learns a move that's a problem, they ban the mon. Annihilape without Rage Fist is just a UU calibur Primeape. And if you were to ban signature moves, we'd have a lot of unessecary bans on stuff that gets pushed over the edge with said move.

sure, and i actually agree with that. i dont actually think we should ban dire claw over sneasler. but i do think its worth thinking about how dire claw is a different type of animal than something like rage fist. also, i think its annoying how discussion about it gets treated the same as stuff like "ho-oh cant use regen and boots in OU and cant use sacred fire in UU" cause it just stifles what could be interesting policy questions.

its the same as the discussion around light clay. sometimes, the less obvious, less 'by the book' solutions solve the problem better, and we're doing a disservice to the game to write them off with "but thats not how it used to go"

 

[Srn]

noted, and fair point

so at some point Smogons lack of consistency is inherent. I.e. you can’t be consistent! Not a fault of Smogon, it’s just the way the game is designed.

in short: Smogon cannot be consistent about hax, it picks thunder wave to pass, and says nope to sand veil. It says no to dire claw, and yes to sneasler.

Srn can we please use examples that are not base power related but rather RNG related. Last respects and wicked blow are a little different.

otherwise your point is noted, just curious as to what the thoughts are when looking at things from a new perspective, rather than the status quo perspective

So as for dire claw. This is a move that is potentially uncompetitive and locked on just 1 mon, I can understand why banning dire claw might make sense. But let me try to use an example to explain where I stand.

What if heatran was the only pokemon that could learn double team? I believe there would need to be a high burden of proof showing that double team is very clearly the only reason why heatran is getting out of control, and that heatran would be fine without it. Only then would I be comfortable in banning double team, rather than banning heatran. And it has to truly be unhealthy to the tier, not just a mild annoyance like t-wave.

So has sneasler with dire claw reached this high burden? Is a frail mon like that really getting a lot of opportunities to spam a poison type attack, which has a poor offensive typing to begin with and only 80 base power? I think we need to see how this plays out in practice more to make sure. Breaking tiering philosophy should only be done with a lot of evidence and certainty.

 

[ant4456]

The reason that there's a higher bar to be reached for moves to be banned rather than pokemon is simple: we tier pokemon, not moves.

It's simpler to ban pokemon to other tiers, and simple is best. Until it's proven that a single move/ability/mechanic is making multiple (but not all) pokemon broken mostly on its own, it's simpler just to ban the mon. There needs to be a reason why we wouldn't let darkshifu back but without wicked blow, or let palafin back without jet punch, etc etc. It is better simply to ban darkshifu/palafin, the pokemon, rather than try to tier moves.

Is there collateral damage to this approach? Absolutely. But what would an OU tier with no "collateral damage" look like? "Calyrex ghost rider in OU just no stabs, kyogre just no water moves, ho-oh but no regen or boots, etc etc. And to make ho-oh balanced in UU, it can't use sacred fire or brave bird down there on top of OU restrictions." Who actually thinks of these restrictions? How do we get the community to vote on these? When do we get the time to suspect test all these restrictions? When will the metagame have time to settle, with every mon being modified to work in every tier, because we try to tier moves and not mons?

I think it is better to accept the collateral damage of banning an entire pokemon and keep things simple.

I agree with this and most of the philosophy, just not a rigid implementation. A rigid implementation to the point where we actively have to look at a logical statement in the face, and just assume it is untrue, to follow it.

Dire Claw to me is a different case because it isn't just a high powered move. If it was 120 BP or something, I don't think anyone would actually be defensive of not banning Sneasler. As people weren't for Urshifu, Kyogre, Palafin, etc. It's specifically the effects that makes Dire Claw arguably much more important to Sneasler's unhealthiness than normal.

Specifically, uncompetitiveness. I'm not even sure if Sneasler is broken with or without Dire Claw, but what I do know is that Dire Claw is a very uncompetitive move that makes any game with it worse. I know that on any half-decent Pokemon it would be pretty good, as you could just spam it and fish as an uncompetitive element.

To me, it's about nuance. There needs to be nuance in how we use old policy to dictate what we will do, and we need to use it wisely. I don't think anything said in the Tiering Framework is necessarily incorrect, but there are nuances that need to be discussed.

For the record, I have not and never will advocate for unbanning things with just "nerfed" attributes. "Oh, no EVs. No signature move." etc. etc., but I just think things like Dire Claw should be directly, unabashedly given a deeper discussion than just "the policy says this."

Side note, we as a community seriously need to have a full conversation about Sleep Clause IMO. How it should be implemented, how cart should handle it, and in what ways will we implement such a clause into Smogon.

It is no secret that Sleep Clause actively makes cart a much worse way to play outside of QoL elements, and things that happen on Showdown are not feasibly recreatable without Sleep Clause, or plays will be changed.

I'm glad Dire Claw brought this up again, this needs to be a bigger discussion than even just some OU Forum conversation, because this effects any tier with Sleep on cart.

 

[Ctann]

So as for dire claw. This is a move that is potentially uncompetitive and locked on just 1 mon, I can understand why banning dire claw might make sense. But let me try to use an example to explain where I stand.

What if heatran was the only pokemon that could learn double team? I believe there would need to be a high burden of proof showing that double team is very clearly the only reason why heatran is getting out of control, and that heatran would be fine without it. Only then would I be comfortable in banning double team, rather than banning heatran. And it has to truly be unhealthy to the tier, not just a mild annoyance like t-wave.

So has sneasler with dire claw reached this high burden? Is a frail mon like that really getting a lot of opportunities to spam a poison type attack, which has a poor offensive typing to begin with and only 80 base power? I think we need to see how this plays out in practice more to make sure. Breaking tiering philosophy should only be done with a lot of evidence and certainty.

yeah, I guess for all we know Sneasler and dire claw might be a non-issue in a month.

it might come down to people throwing dire claw hail Mary’s, where they otherwise wouldn’t, for that 20% chance to turn a game around

but this is nothing new, we have all used excadrill iron head on amongus instead of earthquake, fishing for the flinch.

 

[Eeveeto]

Fourth day of Home meta. Reached 2000 elo today, opinions about Radar and not Radar Mons:

I still think Ursaluna is the biggest priority to be banned. The usage continues to decrease, but low usage isn't an excuse for avoiding Ban, if it was, BP or Shadow Tag for example would have never been banned. The power is still obscene and while Trick Room helps, I have seen plenty of them outside of it, still being effective.

After the bear, Chien Pao is probably the next Mon in the chopping block. It can be stopped and might not be entirely broken but somehow it very often bypasses it's checks. And by checks I mean teams that have 3 or 4 of them.

People continue not using Specs Magearna, so it still hasn't reached broken level for me. A cool set I saw today was Spikes + Encore. It lost the battle, but put a big pressure to my defensive core.

Both Zamazentas continue being totally fine.

Sneasler is still rare and fine.

I hate Watershifu and think he might become oppressive in the future and make the meta less fun, just like it did last Gen. I have still not seen it enough to land a judgement.

Tera Ground Volcarona is capable of sweeping offense and balance alike if given a free turn. Tera Water is strong too. Enough to be banned? I don't know, but it does look for me more dangerous than both Zamazentas and close to Chien Pao and Magearna.

People preparing for Sneasler with Covert Cloak also cover Garganacl at the same time, making it worse than it could have been.

After 4 days, finally saw a Sun team again. Specs Walking Wake is still a demon that needs very specific checks to be stopped. Pretty good vs all frail HOs that plague the ladder, but also strong vs Balance teams.

Rain however is stronger than Sun, with Basculegion, Zapdos and Thundurus being very relevant. Hisuian Samurott can also fit to assist them with Spikes.

Saw a cool Alolan Muk with Taunt + Protect, pretty hard to switch into, since items are important and not getting poisoned by Poison Touch too. Rest Mons can be dealt with Taunt.

Got totally destroyed by a Tera Blast Water Skeledirge. In general, this Mon currently is one of the best, checking most offensive threats and being versatile with the movepool it has.

Almost all Dragapults have Status + Hex nowadays. However, a Band one with Tera Ghost surprised and almost swept me, meaning this Mon still has 1000 ways to win.

 

[MilkyWay]

We all agree that stuff like allowing darkshifu in OU, but no Wicked Blow is ridiculous. I’d rather ban Sneasler than dire claw if it comes down to it, but I’ll acknowledge the people clamoring to ban dire claw have a point when they say it’s different than banning wicked blow because of the rng of dire claw.

The reason why I disagree, however, is that if Sneasler ever becomes too much, it would likely be due to the combination of dire claw + fighting stab for steels + poison touch/u-turn + it’s high speed and attack, etc. I don’t believe dire claw would necessarily be broken on anything that gets it, so until something else gets dire claw and is also broken it makes way more sense to ban Sneasler

 

[Ctann]

We all agree that stuff like allowing darkshifu in OU, but no Wicked Blow is ridiculous. I’d rather ban Sneasler than dire claw if it comes down to it, but I’ll acknowledge the people clamoring to ban dire have a point when they say it’s different than banning wicked blow because of the rng of dire claw.

The reason why I disagree, however, is that if Sneasler ever becomes too much, it would likely be due to the combination of dire claw + fighting stab for steels + poison touch/u-turn + it’s high speed and attack, etc. I don’t believe dire claw would necessarily be broken on anything that gets it, so until something else gets dire claw and is also broken it makes way more sense to ban Sneasler

yeah in the simplest terms this makes a lot of sense.

Edit: I realised I’m a bit salty kings rock got the ban not cloister despite cloyster being the only one breaking it. But as discussed earlier it’s impossible for Smogon to be truly consistent

Eeveeto the best anti dirge right now is the top tier Samurott, just switch in and get a layer of spikes on dirge. Maybe knock off if you think it’s staying in

 

[`ShadowTwo]

The reason that there's a higher bar to be reached for moves to be banned rather than pokemon is simple: we tier pokemon, not moves.

It's simpler to ban pokemon to other tiers, and simple is best. Until it's proven that a single move/ability/mechanic is making multiple (but not all) pokemon broken mostly on its own, it's simpler just to ban the mon. There needs to be a reason why we wouldn't let darkshifu back but without wicked blow, or let palafin back without jet punch, etc etc. It is better simply to ban darkshifu/palafin, the pokemon, rather than try to tier moves.

Is there collateral damage to this approach? Absolutely. But what would an OU tier with no "collateral damage" look like? "Calyrex ghost rider in OU just no stabs, kyogre just no water moves, ho-oh but no regen or boots, etc etc. And to make ho-oh balanced in UU, it can't use sacred fire or brave bird down there on top of OU restrictions." Who actually thinks of these restrictions? How do we get the community to vote on these? When do we get the time to suspect test all these restrictions? When will the metagame have time to settle, with every mon being modified to work in every tier, because we try to tier moves and not mons?

I think it is better to accept the collateral damage of banning an entire pokemon and keep things simple.

I already answered the argument about signature moves earlier, and why they are not comparable to Dire Claw.
Wicked Blow and Jet Punch aren't broken or uncompetitive moves per se, no one is dumb enough to think that.
I'm not saying that Dire Claw should be banned, but that it has enough unique characteristics that a discussion of whether or not it is competitive is legitimate. This is not the case with Wicked Blow or Fleur Cannon.

And please, we must stop URGENTLY the argument of "but suddenly we can authorize the legendaries without their stabs/ability/boots", it is in these cases there of complex ban. So this is very clearly completely off topic, and it's also a slippery slope fallacy.
A possible ban of Dire Claw will obviously never lead to a discussion of a possible unban of Ho-oh in UU without Regenerator or HDB, lmao

 

[Xufactor]

I already answered the argument about signature moves earlier, and why they are not comparable to Dire Claw.
Wicked Blow and Jet Punch aren't broken or uncompetitive moves per se, no one is dumb enough to think that.
I'm not saying that Dire Claw should be banned, but that it has enough unique characteristics that a discussion of whether or not it is competitive is legitimate. This is not the case with Wicked Blow or Fleur Cannon.

And please, we must stop URGENTLY the argument of "but suddenly we can authorize the legendaries without their stabs/ability/boots", it is in these cases there of complex ban. So this is very clearly completely off topic, and it's also a slippery slope fallacy.
A possible ban of Dire Claw will obviously never lead to a discussion of a possible unban of Ho-oh in UU without Regenerator or HDB, lmao

A mechanic being uncompetitive is not enough to get it banned. We also look at the number of broken Pokemon with it. Example of uncompetitive mechanics legal and banned:

"It's why Shadow Tag is banned in SS Ubers but Arena Trap Dugtrio is legal even though the only difference is that Arena Trap can't trap flyers. Dugtrio is C- tier in Ubers."

 

[Blue glass]

snip

I agree there is nuance but the end result would be the same. Despite being told that Smogon prefer to ban mons instead of abilities and moves, in gen 8 some people wanted Gorilla Tactics banned instead of G-Darmanitan and this gen the same thing with Rage Fist and Last Respects. Imagine what people would argue for if Smogon were more liberal with banning abilties, moves and items which they would be right to do because there would be precedent.

 

[MellowBusiness]

Crazy how Game Freak puts Dire Claw in the same game where they also heavily reduce the distribution of Safeguard.
So lets talk about Safeguard for a slight moment. Fifteen lines of Pokemon (counting regional forms as a separate line) learn Safeguard
Two of them are weak to poison.
One of them is Uber
and nine of them are just unviable in an OU setting.
That leaves five users of Safeguard that have potential usage in OU: the two Moltres, Dragonite, Bronzong, and Cresselia. Sheesh. Why did Safeguard coverage get gutted in the first place? Almost makes me think if Dire Claw would be such an issue if Safeguard was still a TM.

Now before you say "wow, why would I use a trash move for ONE Pokemon?"
People were using the trash known as Seismitoed in Gen 8 to """counter""" that butthole Dracovish for eight months. And then when it got rightfully banned, Seimitoed effectively vanished from the tier. Because it was garbage otherwise. So don't tell me that nonsense. And it's not like Safeguard is just useful for only Sneasler either. If it was me, I'd rather sacrifice a moveslot than an entire teamslot.

 

[MattC (Banned)]

Crazy how Game Freak puts Dire Claw in the same game where they also heavily reduce the distribution of Safeguard.
So lets talk about Safeguard for a slight moment. Fifteen lines of Pokemon (counting regional forms as a separate line) learn Safeguard
Two of them are weak to poison.
One of them is Uber
and nine of them are just unviable in an OU setting.
That leaves five users of Safeguard that have potential usage in OU: the two Moltres, Dragonite, Bronzong, and Cresselia. Sheesh. Why did Safeguard coverage get gutted in the first place? Almost makes me think if Dire Claw would be such an issue if Safeguard was still a TM.

Now before you say "wow, why would I use a trash move for ONE Pokemon?"
People were using the trash known as Seismitoed in Gen 8 to """counter""" that butthole Dracovish for eight months. And then when it got rightfully banned, Seimitoed effectively vanished from the tier. Because it was garbage otherwise. So don't tell me that nonsense. And it's not like Safeguard is just useful for only Sneasler either. If it was me, I'd rather sacrifice a moveslot than an entire teamslot.

Safeguard is so niche, but its technically trade-off Heal Bell. It could see use on Cresselia, the only issue is LIKE Heal Bell its distribution is ass and on stuff that would never use it

Like this. HOW does it get Safeguard? Idk

 

[UnusualBoy]

You know you that bitch when you cause all this conversation

 

[UnusualBoy]

Safeguard is so niche, but its technically trade-off Heal Bell. It could see use on Cresselia, the only issue is LIKE Heal Bell its distribution is ass and on stuff that would never use it

Like this. HOW does it get Safeguard? Idk

He is king, no other explanation needed

Jokes aside, the distribution of certain moves make no sense tbh lol.

 

[Xufactor]

Can someone link to Smogon’s ban criteria (what to ban) with reasoning?

 

[Gleaming Moonlight]

I agree there is nuance but the end result would be the same. Despite being told that Smogon prefer to ban mons instead of abilities and moves, in gen 8 some people wanted Gorilla Tactics banned instead of G-Darmanitan and this gen the same thing with Rage Fist and Last Respects. Imagine what people would argue for if Smogon were more liberal with banning abilties, moves and items which they would be right to do because there would be precedent.

theres always going to be people who want X banned instead of Y. precedent can help with how that gets talked about, but its not the end all be all. ultimately, tiering cant be democratic, and so "if we do this, then more people will want that" isnt a rock solid rebuttal to moving away from strict policy.

i know im biased cause id like to see light clay go than a bunch of mons, but in the end it ultimately comes down to the health of the format. there are a lot of ways to create that, and everyone is going to have their own opinions on it. theres value in following precedent, and theres value in ignoring precedent. these arent easy decisions but thats why we have some smart people to make these decisions

 

[KamenOH]

Safeguard is so niche, but its technically trade-off Heal Bell. It could see use on Cresselia, the only issue is LIKE Heal Bell its distribution is ass and on stuff that would never use it

Like this. HOW does it get Safeguard? Idk

The how i have no fuckin clue
However, i can say that it could have use as a bulky safeguard wall. Its 134 atk uninvested is pretty good, while Multiscale allows its 91/95/100 bulk to shine. Safeguard/Roost/Dragon Dance/a solid no nonsense move could, given good investment and a tera that fits the team, go solid

 

[UnfortunateSal]

All this discussion of Dire Claw is funny to me since I have never seen Sneasler click it a single time and have maybe clicked it twice while using it, it's always either SDing and using Tera Flying Acrobatics or spamming CC / U-Turn lol

Like, it's all cool to talk about how broken a move is on paper, but is it really a problem if it's rarely used in practice?

Edit: Okay nevermind I got a chance to use this move 2 times in battle and it poisoned a Landot-T and put a Toxapex to sleep, this move is kinda stupid I get it now

 

[T'Challa]

does anyone have a good H-Dicidueye team i could use, team building not going so great

 

[UnfortunateSal]

What are everyone's thoughts on Dialga Jr. aka H-Goodra? It seems like it could overall be a solid tank plus Body Press mon.

Changing the subject a little but I'm running a Specs set and really liking it, it gets a lot of switchin opportunities and can nuke things with its actually very solid power. Pretty prediction reliant but it is a really good set. A couple replays to show it doing its thing, neither of them are particularly amazing showcases but it was good enough to help me win at least:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1875409153-dvo6jh2z1vgdy8t3cyzzr1v2du33kcopw
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1876627391-xvv7zzs9lziy5z6dck27e3n1crnfjoepw

(also both of these replays mostly show Enamorus doing Enamorus things god that mon is so good)