Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[Cheryl.]

This is way too many posts for the most pointless discussion ever. Dire Claw ban is just not on the table at all, atleast discuss banning the mon as a whole.

Or other things, I personally would like to ask what mons people are finding super strong that ARENT on the radar rn and ones that people think will be pretty hard meta once bans pass and meta stabilizes.

I will start said convo by asking; what do you guys think about Baxcalibur right now, and how well do you see it doing in the future?

Baxcalibur suffers a tad from Chien-Pao as competition right now, but there are very few things scarier than the combination of Chilly Reception Slowkings + Bax. That defense boost is actually insane for it and makes it really annoying to revenge kill with physical attackers. Your points about its superior breaking power and burn immunity are also all valid, DD as a move also helps separate it from Chien as it has a way to boost its Speed stat. I liked Bax a little more with Regieleki in the tier though, as it could use its resistances to BoltBeam (Tera Blast was only neutral and it did jack) for setup opportunities.

 

[thunderbug]

I for one love the idea of spl ending in a forfeit because somebody had the audacity to click dire claw twice or are you suggesting it straight can’t click the move so now band sneasler has to struggle if it pulls sleep because that would be equally as hilarious in a last mon scenario

 

[sand1234]

I don't know what the exact solution is but something needs to be done about these screens teams dominating the ladder. Too many mons become way too overpowered with screens including Mag, Sneasler, Pao, Volc, the Zamas basically everything on radar I guess. Mage and Pao need to be banned regardless but the rest become way too overbearing with screens and are somewhat manageable otherwise. Doesn't help that Dragapult and Grimm are such amazing screen setters that get both up often and maintain momentum too. Shift CM Mag and Bulky volc are unholy levels of broken in screens for sure

 

[Mega Breloom]

The fact that the mod lets your select the sleep move but wastes your turn actually enables impossible interactions on cart, such as stalling Sucker Punch PP (unrealistic example but still) or spamming on something asleep that might wake up with no consequences if the opponent decides to switch.

You still waste your turn though, on cart the incoming pokemon would fall asleep too in cart.

 

[odt]

Ursaluna is a monster when positioned correctly, but surely not a large enough threat on its own to catch a quickban? Stop the TR or simply sack into revenge kill, there are enough guys who can take him out with minimal chip. If you're getting swept by this thing that's honestly on you.

I don't see much value lost in getting rid of stored power. Mag can do some somewhat honest work without that move and it would allow us to get the ostrich back for some Lumina Crash shenanigans. Psychic Terrain Poltegeist and Hatterene would be the main other losers with that change but did we ever really like those sets? Fuck Stored Power it's just stupid with tera.

I LOVE THIS STRONG HEADED DUDE
Most i hear about him is 'decent UU threat, maybe RU later on' but I think it's really played down how awesome some of his attributes are. 150/120(180 in sun)BP stabs do not need coverage so you basically always have 2 slots to play around with. Banded is what I've seen most but I'm honestly not a huge fan considering Head Smash is not something you want to lock into and the E-speed business is still Dnites forte.
Life Orb Morning Sun Tera Flying probably the winner for me so far. Most dishonestly honest Pokemon ever, shades of the gen8 murder crab. I'll never complain about Crabhammer again..

Hustle is randbat/lower tier shit. Chlorophyll LO Solar Blade felt great to pilot. I liked running Healing Wish in the 4th slot but I can see merit in having both Ice Spinner and perhaps Tera Blast Fire/Ghost. Friendship ended with Ungaboongus, now Hilligant is my bf

This thing is pure class, double regen is well and truly back. No knock or defog barely matters if you're careful with your Tusk. Max HP Taunt+NP Bleakwind Storm with a defensive tera chips down teams really well. The more offensive Max SpA Tera flying absolutely mauls, big fan.

Lando went from having 4MSS to being a tad awkward in terms of that last slot. Found myself using Smack Down once and i knew something was wrong. Does best as a max physDef rocky helmet SR setter/pivot for me, still best in class really.
Nasty Plot/Sandsear are meme moves on this guy. Taunt didn't seem too useful on the sets I've run so far but i could see SD Tera flying making good use of it if you felt so inclined.

Insta-classic mon. Boots Moonblast/Earth Power/Mystical Fire/Healing Wish might not look like it does much until you try switching into it. Will be happier when Chien-Pao goes (I'm not letting myself get hurt again). Superpower sets seemed kind of meh, Val territory imo.

 

[Avira]

Is a niche scenario but still can happen, the idea is that the idea of your losing for a rule that you didn't mean to break is something that shouldn't happen in any kind of competence. What you say also doesn't make the game be more cart accurate since that doesn't happen in the cart.

Blocking encore has some issues too: the other user might use a priority move or just be faster, that is something you couldn't tell for sure in some scenarios depending on spreads, idk, it just sounds like making stuff more complex when we already got something that works, the implementation of mods that do stuff that can't happen in cart is something that will happen unless GF fixes all the possible problematic stuff.

I just find the current Sleep Clause provides too much protection to the Sleep move users. An automatic loss with 2 of the oppponent's active mons having been slept by you, and making it so that your opponent can't select Encore after the turn you used a Sleep move would allow for the least abuse of Sleep mechanics and the least contrived interactions while removing the chance of forcing the Sleep move user into an automatic loss.

 

[thunderbug]

I just find the current Sleep Clause provides too much protection to the Sleep move users. An automatic loss with 2 of the oppponent's active mons having been slept by you, and making it so that your opponent can't select Encore after the turn you used a Sleep move would allow for the least abuse of Sleep mechanics and the least contrived interactions while removing the chance of forcing the Sleep move user into an automatic loss.

Or they could cut out the 12 step program and just ban the element that’s problematic if deemed so rather than try and come up with answers to the 41 ways degenerates will find to force auto losses to troll people.

 

[Avira]

Or they could cut out the 12 step program and just ban the element that’s problematic if deemed so rather than try and come up with answers to the 41 ways degenerates will find to force auto losses to troll people.

Are you suggesting a ban of all sleep moves like in Gen 5?

 

[thunderbug]

Are you suggesting a ban of all sleep moves like in Gen 5?

No I meant sneasler/dire claw if that’s deemed broken and uncompetitive

Sleep was broke in gen 5 because turns didnt carry over if you switched out so it was auto ko, this is of course not the case anymore and there’s ways around spore more now

 

[ant4456]

I've been lurking this thread for days and, what is it about Gen 9 and calling literally everything in Smogon into question? It feels like this Gen more than (before policy was more solidified) has been causing a lot of things we take by granted to be put into question. I have no real argument either way, I just find it so interesting.

 

[MrE]

I've been lurking this thread for days and, what is it about Gen 9 and calling literally everything in Smogon into question? It feels like this Gen more than (before policy was more solidified) has been causing a lot of things we take by granted to be put into question. I have no real argument either way, I just find it so interesting.

I don't get it honestly, since the gen 5 cluster fuck they've been getting better and better at tiering imo.

The only thing to complain about really is why no garg suspect?

 

[Mega Breloom]

I've been lurking this thread for days and, what is it about Gen 9 and calling literally everything in Smogon into question? It feels like this Gen more than (before policy was more solidified) has been causing a lot of things we take by granted to be put into question. I have no real argument either way, I just find it so interesting.

It started with Shed tail because people wanted to use Cyclizar, since it actually got banned people now believesother stuff should be considered to keep mons.

 

[KrazyKoopa95]

https://pokepast.es/00c3dc31a50e13d8

I have found the perfect solution to Magearna!!

 

[Avira]

It started with Shed tail because people wanted to use Cyclizar, since it actually got banned people now believesother stuff should be considered to keep mons.

I think it actually started with the Tera Suspect Test when Smogon entertained restricting Tera, although I don't consider Tera Preview a restriction but moreso a change in the meta state that will be even more favourable for offensive gameplay.

 

[Hyper-Go-ons]

I'm going to explain some Dire Claw oddities.

Dire Claw can't put asleep pokemon that are in Electric Terrain, pokemon with Vital Spirit or Insomnia and it can't status someone on Misty Terrain, a target carrying Covert Cloak or with the Abilities Purifying Salt and Shield Dust.

Dire Claw can't paralyze Electric type pokemon or with the ability Limber.

Dire Claw can't poison Poison type pokemon (Or Steel type pokemon if they carry a Ring Target, otherwise it will poison a Poison or Steel type if the user has the ability Corrosion) or with the ability Immunity.

However, if the user has the ability Mold Breaker, Then Dire Claw will bypass any status negating abilities useless if the target holds a Ability Shield.

 

[UnusualBoy]

This is way too many posts for the most pointless discussion ever. Dire Claw ban is just not on the table at all, atleast discuss banning the mon as a whole.

Or other things, I personally would like to ask what mons people are finding super strong that ARENT on the radar rn and ones that people think will be pretty hard meta once bans pass and meta stabilizes.

I will start said convo by asking; what do you guys think about Baxcalibur right now, and how well do you see it doing in the future?

I think he is gonna drop in usage for 3 main reason: Magearna, the new fighting types and Chien Pao. He's not bad by any means but why use him over Chien Pao and Magearna being everywhere along with Urshifu, the Zamas and Sneasler make his life hell. I don't see dropping tu UU again but he won't be top 10 for awhile.

 

[SpritePony]

I've been lurking this thread for days and, what is it about Gen 9 and calling literally everything in Smogon into question? It feels like this Gen more than (before policy was more solidified) has been causing a lot of things we take by granted to be put into question. I have no real argument either way, I just find it so interesting.

I've been lurking too, and I've been seeing one hell of a lot of hot takes going on. It's wild to look at, especially with the new radar. I guess I'll weigh in a little bit.

Sneasler/Dire Claw and Sleep Clause: This whole debate is honestly ridiculous. Sleep Clause is fine as it is, and this isn't Gen 5 where Sleep is completely and utterly busted. Sneasler should go until if and when a new Dire Claw user comes in so that Sneasler doesn't get preferential treatment compared to Houndstone. (Houndstone was banned entirely due to Last Respects, once Basculegion came out, there was a new LR user, so LR got axed and doggo came back.)

Magearna: This is probably due to the set I've been using, but I generally don't find it to be overly broken. Dirge checks it like Dirge checks Volc. If they have the out, they have out. If not, then it's free real estate to just Torch Song into oblivion. Or Earth Power. Steels also check it pretty well.

Garg: I'm still mid on this one. It isn't broken, but it is an annoyance you still need to be conscious of when building. I haven't seen it in ages, and even if I do, my Gastro just sits on it (among other Pokemon I play with.)

Zama/Zaci squad: Terrifying AF, not going to lie. It's funny watching a Zaci commit a CC into my Corvi just to be instantly revenged by my Gardevoir next turn. (I've been loving Garde lately.) But Zama is just... Super scary. You kind of need to have a good check to it, like Corvi or various Unaware mons. A lot of dancing going around Zama.

Ursaluna: Haven't faced this yet, but this thing looks stupidly scary... Dumb powerful. Slow, sure, but has a decent enough move pool and high enough raw offense to be a threat to anything. The fact that Guts SD Tera Normal Facade can bonk something like a PhysDef Corvi in 1 is wild.

Lando-T vs Tusk: I've watched this to hell and back since Home dropped. The fact that Lando-T lost Defog and Knock Off makes me feel that Tusk is going to be the superior Pokemon overall. Lando-T has more switch-in and speedier threatening opportunities over Tusk, but Tusk has way better role compression and usage.

Urshifu: Haven't faced it, but it looks dumb af to have all hits be crits via Surging Strikes.

Light Clay: Hoo boy, time for a hot take everyone. Hold onto your color! Historically, I haven't had any issues with screens. Anyone who knows me knows that I LOVE running my Corvi/Gastro defensive core. Corvi's Defog wiping away Screens is the most satisfying thing ever. We also have other means to wipe screens -- Brick Break (unoptimal), Psychic Fangs, and Raging Bull. PF and RB are hyper specific, but should be considered none the less. Whenever I've played against screens, I've always either been able to play through them due to not tossing my Pokemon away needlessly, or just wiped them with Defog/Raging Bull. (Infiltrator also exists.)
However, it's been shown that in the SV metagame, Screens, along with Shed Tail, have been known to severely enable some of the most powerful (and at times broken) sweepers in the game. Ape, Espathra, Volcarona, and a small handful of other Pokemon that while DEBATABLY manageable on their own, Screens/Sub makes them a nightmare to deal with.
Personally, I'd rather see the mons go rather than Light Clay itself, as in other formats of lower tiers, with Light Clay gone, problematic sweepers still did their thing behind 4 turns of screens instead of 7. I don't even use screens, I just find them too slow overall. (Outside of Raids, that is.)

Also, even though she's RU, I think people shouldn't sleep on Scarf Gardevoir right now. She's such a beast when you play her properly. I've been having a blast bonking various higher tier Pokemon, and even revenge killing a few.

 

[ant4456]

a bit of a rant inspired by what Mega Breloom said in reply to me:

In my opinion, the change is just time? And new people playing?

I think older heads in the community take for granted the idea that everyone agrees with the core tenants of Smogon's old policy. I think over time more and more people are questioning it, and I wouldn't be surprised if, in the next generation or two, there is an even bigger divide in how Smogon should be managed.

There are definitely people who agree with a lot of what Smogon stands for, and just parts of it they think are pretty poor decisions being held up. Smogon Policy is often presented in a "Because I said so" Mom way to people who don't agree with things. Some are experienced, probably a lot are new to the game, no doubt, but I've seen more and more of it each year in my experience.

If you think Dire Claw should be banned and not Sneasler, being told "Because Policy Says So" is going to frustrate, because as more people who weren't there during the original debates start playing the game, growing up with it, and follow it; they aren't all going to see it as valid.

"Well, why can't we just do that? Why would we use this old notion and apply it rigidly?"

From a younger player's perspective, and honestly in some cases in the last few years, my perspective, is that a lot of people will aggressively advocate for an actively worse game in order to stay in line with what people that they've never met said makes sense. Indefensible, mind you. Many would say I argue for a worse game with Tera, but that is debatable; there are things that honestly are not that debatable.

Smogon's Policy Review threads are full of this IMO. For instance, the recentish thread about Quick Claw in Gen 4 OU. This is an item that actively can only make the game worse, and yet some would criticize the thread's creation at this vague notion of "being too ban happy", and "there will always be luck-based elements."

At a more personal level, I've been disillusioned with Smogon Policy since the King's Rock arguments in SWSH, and similar Veil ability discussions. A lot of why I've stayed silent on this thread and not been playing as much is simply: I find myself agreeing less and less with the core of Smogon philosophy at handling a metagame.

To be clear, none of this is the council's fault. They have to deal with the cards they are given, but I feel that the game is constantly running into walls to get the most obvious changes done due to policy that most people I know don't agree with.

When I've seen people say similar things to the above, I've seen a sentiment of: "Well, if you don't like that, just make competition!" Well, no. 99.99% of people cannot do the things Smogon do. It's old enough, it's famous in the community, no grassroots competition has a chance to succeed. So if your response to someone not liking a core of how Smogon has cemented itself is, "lol, just don't play it;" truth is most people don't really have a choice.

If I want a decent 6v6 metagame using new Pokemon with a website that mandates things. matchmakes for me, and has a lot of other extras; I basically have to play Smogon.

I enjoy the process, generally like the game, and I like the council and the people who play it, mind you. I'm not gonna act like there is a gun to my head forcing me to play Smogon and interact with it, but I just find myself staying quiet as of late because any time I see questioning of these old policies it seems to get a decent bit of ridicule, and I generally agree with said questioning. Appealing to an authority of old nerds on the internet is never going to come across to me as justifying something as good tiering policy, it's just the best tiering policy we can accomplish.

So, uh, to wrap this back around?: Things like this probably aren't going to stop, probably never will, even if the policy changed massively it would only be a baker's dozen years or less until that would be criticized. I love Smogon, but feel that the things that would make it better are simply impossible/out of most people's hands; and importantly, it feels like the council's hands are generally tied more and more as of late. I love the transparency but what that transparency has revealed in my eyes if a bureaucratic nightmare, where any decision outside of a basic "ban this Pokemon" has to go through way too much, even if most people want something done. And that the baked in policy is responsible for a lot of it.

 

[I8NY]

Also, today is my last day of school, so I’ll have the summer to be way more active in the discussion. Excited to talk with you all!

Me too. I'm especially excited to finally get to play more with the home mones, since I haven't gotten much time in the past week with school and studying for finals.

 

[Blue glass]

One doesn't need Smogon Tiering Framework to understand why banning a move that only one mon has is bad. It would be a nerf to Sneaser and it would open the door for more nerfs of this kind in all tiers. A UUBL is too broken? Just ban a move or two or an ability on it.

 

[Mega Breloom]

I think he is gonna drop in usage for 3 main reason: Magearna, the new fighting types and Chien Pao. He's not bad by any means but why use him over Chien Pao and Magearna being everywhere along with Urshifu, the Zamas and Sneasler make his life hell. I don't see dropping tu UU again but he won't be top 10 for awhile.

The main thing with Pao is the speed, the extra bulk is nice, but Pao's speed tier is amazing and gives it a way better match up against offense. Bax might be a great fat destroyer, but unless it has support it struggles against HO, while Pao doesn't need much but might hazards removal (Bax needs it too). Pao just gives you better match ups in generals and the main goal when you make a team is maximizing the odds of that them winning so in that sense, there are only a few scenarios where you would pick Bax over Pao. Bax isn't bad by any means, but Pao is just better overall.

 

[Ctann]

I've been lurking this thread for days and, what is it about Gen 9 and calling literally everything in Smogon into question? It feels like this Gen more than (before policy was more solidified) has been causing a lot of things we take by granted to be put into question. I have no real argument either way, I just find it so interesting.

Maybe there can be a new precedent:

if a move/ability/item is deemed too good because of RNG/hax - a.k.a. “uncompetitive” - when it is available on an otherwise good Pokémon. Then that move/item/ability can be banned, even if it is [currently] on one Pokémon.

Slipper slope argument tho

at some point in the future, it’s generation 11:

“iron head is too good on mega excadrill with its ability as one that combines sand rush and sand force, it’s flinching through its best counter gholdengo with as one: levitate and good as gold. Let’s ban iron head and not mega excadrill”

this way if moody is deemed broken when it’s on a Pokémon that’s “good enough”, then you can ban the ability

if kings rock needed to be broken on a Pokémon that’s good enough, then you can ban the item

if it took sneasler to break dire claw, when something else eventually gets it, it’s banned too.

nobody is worried about ice cloak articuno, but it’s banned anyway due to sand veil garchomo.

kings rock Cincinno never cheesed it’s way past Melmetal in a tournament game.. but it can’t use it anyway.

this discussion is mostly in anticipation of the eventual sneasler debate increasing later. as OU progresses and the more prominent threats are banned before it.

dire claw is effectively better than a 20% flinch when it is used against non steel/electric types.

against non-electric: 16% sleep + 4% full paralysis
against electric: 16% sleep

noting: there is viable coutnerplay to dire claw hax, when compared to all the other hax that have been banned:

• Steel types, especially goldengo
• Covert cloak
• Electric terrain
• Misty terrain

Previously counterpkay to sand veil was “aerial ace”. Lol

Second point is that there are viable checks to the pivot set that will never sleep, such as RH corgi knight and the aforementioned goldengo.

the unburden set needs to forego its 120BP gunk shot if it wants the 16% chance of cheese. So it’s a big sacrifice, and for all we know, dire claw might not break sneasler!


-

Final thoughts:

I’m fine with this concept being ditched in favour of “ban the Pokémon not the move”, tho this alternative feels a little more tasteful.

regardless, hoping that dire claw doesn’t break sneasler, as it’s a fun pivot !

 

[ant4456]

One doesn't need Smogon Tiering Framework to understand why banning a move that only one mon has is bad. It would be a nerf to Sneaser and it would open the door for more nerfs of this kind in all tiers. A UUBL is too broken? Just ban a move or two or an ability on it.

this is doing the same thing I said. No, it is not basic knowledge, obvious or even necessarily correct that this makes sense. If I asked pretty much anyone I know this prompt:

"You have to ban either the entire Pokemon, or the uncompetitive move that makes the Pokemon broken." They will answer the move.

A better example is Last Respects, a move that basically the entire community was like "Well we have to play dumb and pretend that there is ambiguousness that this shitmon is only Ubers because of the move."

Which honestly was reverse logic anyways because if anything, Basculegion being a good Pokemon makes it a much worse example, being an actually competent Pokemon without Last Respects.

This part of Smogon Tiering Framework assumes people are incorrect, dumb, and do not know things.

The entire slippery slope argument is also the same thing. "What if people are dumb and do this thing after doing this?"

Instead of us just listening to an old policy rigidly, I feel like the community should be trusted to make the game better. Clearly people do not want to ban an entire Pokemon because of a shitty secondary effect for the game on one signature move.

What makes Sneasler broken are obviously uncompetitive elements that are not directly tied to the Pokemon. You know this. I know this. We basically all know this.

But by policy we have to act very stupid, and that an 80 BP move that other than these uncompetitive elements would not be picked, and therefore make the Pokemon not broken, is actually something we cannot even think to comprehend. What if Dire Claw was not broken?! We will never find out because it will never be on another Pokemon this generation, and another meta tool, Pokemon people were excited to use, play with, and seems otherwise pretty fine; must be entirely banned, alas old nerds that wrote things on the internet would curl their hand in disgust.

 

[Gleaming Moonlight]

One doesn't need Smogon Tiering Framework to understand why banning a move that only one mon has is bad. It would be a nerf to Sneaser and it would open the door for more nerfs of this kind in all tiers. A UUBL is too broken? Just ban a move or two or an ability on it.

i think this kinda slippery slope argument misses a lot of why people are calling for a dire claw ban not a sneasler ban. its not a matter of nerfing sneasler, but a problem with the move itself. dire claw is unique in its problems (currently), and arguments for banning it arent the same as, say, banning glaive rush back when baxcalibur was UUBL. they really aren't comparable situations.

personally, i dont even think its dire claw that breaks sneasler (if she's at all broken) so i dont think banning the move is all that nessecary, but there is nuance in reasons to ban the move that aren't just nerfing a pokemon.

 

[Magcargo]

Maybe there can be a new precedent:

if a move/ability/item is deemed too good because of RNG/hax - a.k.a. “uncompetitive” - when it is available on an otherwise good Pokémon. Then that move/item/ability can be banned, even if it is [currently] on one Pokémon.

this way if moody is deemed broken when it’s on a Pokémon that’s “good enough”, then you can ban the ability

if kings rock needed to be broken on a Pokémon that’s good enough, then you can ban the item

if it took sneasler to break dire claw, when something else eventually gets it, it’s banned too.

nobody is worried about ice cloak articuno, but it’s banned anyway due to sand veil garchomo.

kings rock Cincinno never cheesed it’s way past Melmetal in a tournament game.. but it can’t use it anyway.

this discussion is mostly in anticipation of the eventual sneasler debate increasing later. as OU progresses and the more prominent threats are banned before it.

dire claw is effectively better than a 20% flinch when it is used against non steel/electric types.

against non-electric: 16% sleep + 4% full paralysis
against electric: 16% sleep

noting: there is viable coutnerplay to dire claw hax, when compared to all the other hax that have been banned:

• Steel types, especially goldengo
• Covert cloak
• Electric terrain
• Misty terrain

Previously counterpkay to sand veil was “aerial ace”. Lol

Second point is that there are viable checks to the pivot set that will never sleep, such as RH corgi knight and the aforementioned goldengo.

the unburden set needs to forego its 120BP gunk shot if it wants the 16% chance of cheese. So it’s a big sacrifice, and for all we know, dire claw might not break sneasler!


-

Final thoughts:

I’m fine with this concept being ditched in favour of “ban the Pokémon not the move”, tho this alternative feels a little more tasteful.

regardless, hoping that dire claw doesn’t break sneasler, as it’s a fun pivot !

More tourney games have been decided by a Thunder Wave Paralysis than a Bright Powder or Sand Veil Miss.