Metagame SV OU Metagame Discussion v2 [Update on Post #5186]

[serperiorr]

(Long post about Ursaluna)


Alright, everybody has to be in on one massive joke when they say this mon is good, let alone banworthy. I personally think this mon is completely fine, and would put it at around B+ in viability. Now, to be honest I have mixed feelings towards this mon and that's mostly to do with trick room, which I will address at the bottom.

First, I'll go over its strengths and why people think this mon is banworthy, and a counterargument for each. "This mon is unbeatable and gets 2+ kills per match!!!!!!!!" This sentiment towards luna, imo, is completely wrong. Yes it has insane calcs and yes it can OHKO/2HKO pretty much every relevant mon. However, it is still piss slow and still a guts mon. What this means is that it has to come in on either: an attack, or a pivot move (to "secure" a kill). The former is actually really hard to do whilst perserving your bear, since this mon has kinda mid bulk. 130/105/80 is absolutely amazing in a vacuum, with physical bulk comparable to max def Clef uninvested, but there's more than stats to a mon's bulk. Notably, luna has pretty bad weaknesses and its resists are mostly insignificant, aside from ghost immunity. This means that realistically, this mon isn't taking more than 2 hits (not an exact number, just an estimate based on fighting luna teams), severely lowering its chances of getting kills. More importantly, this mon effectively cannot carry an item and is stuck with flame orb + takes 1/16 chip every turn. Also, this mon hates spikes, which is only getting more popular due to the rise of H-samurott. It also deals contact damage for pretty much all of its moves except EQ. What this means is that you are stuck in an awkward position whenever your luna is out, as you have to pretty much make the right predict to get the kill, and if you don't, you probably took too much damage to come in next time (from burn, hazards, or helmet). If you do get the read right, you get a kill 99% of the time, which is really good, but not a new thing in OU. I would like to make some comparisons to some mons in oldgens to prove how this isn't really a factor that makes luna broken.

Gen 8 Conk has 0 switchins. Maybe 1 if you count Buzzwole. On top of that, it has enough bulk to take a hit and priority. Yet it's pretty shit because of its prediction-reliance and being slow as balls. Sure, it's not as strong or bulky as luna but it still functions around the same.

Gen 8 alolawak might be a weird comparison, but under TR they function similarly. Both claim kills under TR, with alolawak having a whopping 0 OU switchins and having serviceable bulk to get in, like switching into volc, vic, or even electrics with lightningrod. Arguably has a better STAB combo than luna, but with less bulk and raw power. You pretty much have to sac at least 1 mon when this comes in. This mon is so broken guys!!!

Probably the best comparison to luna. I would like to highlight specifically CB Mel, since its other sets deviate a bit too far from luna imo, focusing more on longevity and spreading status. CB Mel, especially under TR, has no concrete switchins while only using 1 move (DIB), easing prediction. Also has a nasty 51% flinch chance. Like Ursaluna, this set suffers from longevity and using contact moves.

Volcanion in gen 6 and 8 in particular is amazing at trading due to its bulk but lower speed. Gen 8 Volc runs more offensive "unwallable" sets (unless you have a slowking). Main way to beat this mon is to just attack it and accept the trade.

A few things I'd like to highlight, first, I'm aware that luna can just tera normal to OHKO more things and to remove ground weaknesses. Tera on this mon pretty much always guarantees a kill, there's no sugarcoating it. However, it arguably puts that player in the backfoot, since you're popping your tera already and if the mon in front attacked luna, it probably took ~30%+ as well as burn, hazards, etc. So now you used your single-use tera on a mon which can probably get OHKOd from strong special moves from this range. Meanwhile, the other player can probably tera to win the game with broken Mage or some other sweeper. Second, I don't really follow stall that much but I've heard that this mon decimates it. I consider this a non-argument since there have been popular mons from oldgens which also destroy stall, notably, oldgen heatran and magnezone. Kinda sucks for stall players but oh well.

Counterplay
The reason I'm so adamant on this opinion and keeping the bear in the tier is mainly because ironically, its pure strength means you don't really have to build around it. Counterplay usually devolves into in-game dynamics, which I been enjoying rn on ladder. I think the biggest way to beat it is to just accept it getting a single kill, and attacking it straight-up. Usually you'll do enough to the point where it can't switch in to anything anymore, making it pretty bad. Alternatively, dancing around its STABs is still an option which, if you get the 50/50 right, can result in a positional advantage + chip on the bear.

Physdef ID corv is already a good set for mons like dnite, which deals with luna quite nicely. Not a foolproof check since they can read the roost and use ground move, or simply switch out while you ID, leaving the corv low. Still massively annoying for luna.

Air balloon ghold is an amazing check since clicking fire punch is a hard commitment and you would have to know their set beforehand.

Again, not great checks but both of these, especially with a helmet, can slow down the luna rampage since both of them heavily threaten luna (grass knot on lando).

In general, I like this mon's presence since you don't have to pull out a completely unheard of set or mon to beat it, most teams have their ways around it.

Trick Room
Okay, this part is the most iffy part of this mon and what could change my mind about it. This mon straight up sweeps under TR. It's significantly harder to play around TR luna than non-TR, due to all the support it gets. 1) Magearna automatically makes TR better 2) Glowking can use lagging tail chilly reception to get the bear in 3) Cress and hatt can hwish the bear for free. However, I still think this mon isn't broken overall, even in TR. You guys have to realise that it's still TR we're talking about. Historically never a good choice in OU because of its inherent weaknesses. It's even more prediction-reliant than usual because of limited turns. Also you get 3 turns of attacking (potentially 2 since luna needs to get the flame orb up). Also, your setters are going to be sacced meaning these turns are even more limited - for example, using hwish to heal up luna removes one of your TR setters, and once you have no more TR, you cannot win in most situations. Also, aside from luna and mage, there aren't that many TR abusers, meaning the team is kinda putting it all in on luna. Glastrier is decent, but not comparable to gen 8 abusers like the aforementioned alolawak or crawdaunt. And just like these examples, they all require sacs to beat. The people who complain about luna's brokenness under TR have probably been spamming offense, which historically loses to TR. And if you play screens HO, luna isn't doing shit against you. Finally, with mage inevitably getting banned, TR will be shit again and luna's viability will drop off a cliff. Overall, I think luna making TR good is very fun and unique for the meta, since even melmetal couldn't do that in gen 8.

As a final footnote, if people start using new luna sets that prove to be good, I might change my mind and think this mon is broken. Let me know how much you disagree or agree with me, I'll be happy to change my mind because for now, I really do not get the ursaluna hype.

tl;dr ursaluna mid

 

[MegaScizor32]

I never said Lando-T was not splashable. I said it wasn't as splashable (compared to the past and to great Tusk now). Your post was so obviously made in bad faith and misrepresented what I said. It is a fact that Landorus-Therian can no longer remove hazards, and that coupled with its wide movepool nerfs, makes it less easy to build with it since using Great Tusk and Landorus-Therian is stacking weaknesses. There is nothing wrong with stating that Landorus-Therian is less splashable than Great Tusk because in Gen 9, it's true.

Tera also isn't new anymore and people have played with it for over 6 months, so I wouldn't say people are still getting adjusted to it. Tera Preview may on the surface reduce uncertainty, but it leads to more guesswork around whether to Tera, and exposing a slower Pokemon's Tera Type increases the chances of offensive Pokemon outplaying the slower Pokemon's defensive Tera. Right now, some people are using slapping Ghost Tera on specific Pokemon to improve their Ursaluna matchup, but if the Ursaluna knows exactly what can use Tera Ghost, it increases the ability of the Ursaluna user to outplay that defensive use of Tera by using Crunch when someone is so obviously going to Tera Ghost. Don't get me wrong, Ursaluna will probably be quickbanned anyway, but Tera Preview will make threats like Ursaluna even more broken than they already are. As I've said before, offensive Pokemon carry more attacking moves and hence have more midground plays against defensive Pokemon's Tera compared to defensive Pokemon's options with reacting to an offensive Pokemon's Tera. Thus, revealing Tera Types can allow offensive teams to press their advantage more often than a defensive team can overcome the opponent's offenses.

My bad I misinterpreted you saying Landorus-t isnt splashable.

And idk 6 months is not a whole lotta time either. VGC has a favorable view of Tera but they also have open team sheet. In my eyes Tera Preview will help people understand thier matchup better.

And contrary to what many believe you do need skill to use Terastillization to its maximum potential. You cant just tera and auto-win. Theres more strategy to it like when to use it, which mon to use it on, the various tera type you choose to put on your mons, etc.

Also I am biased towards a more offensive meta so that may have something to do with my liking towards terastillization.

 

[Avira]

Believing Ursaluna is mid is a choice since it's a better breaker than CB Melmetal since Steel is a worse attacking type than Normal and since Luna also has Headlong Rush, which also obliterates most Pokemon in OU. Ursaluna having slightly less power than CB Melmetal while having the ability to switch moves makes it far superior in the roll of a breaker. The Ursaluna user does not need to bring Luna in on something it doesn't trade favourably against or outright win since there are a lot of mons that either struggle to do significant damage to Luna or get OHKOed, and sacking what's in front of you doesn't always work since you could have one of your win conditions in front of you, which would set you back a lot if you lost it to Ursaluna. The meta after Chien-Pao's ban will only be more favourable for Ursaluna since Chien-Pao's ban will slow down the meta somewhat and make it more favourable for Ursaluna to thrive, and Chien-Pao is very likely to get banned after Magearna and Zamazenta-Hero get banned.

 

[Magcargo]

We have no intention to ban Stored Power.

Yes, Stored Power may be broken on 2-3 Pokemon in the metagame. Espathra is one and Magearna looks to be another. You can argue a certain Baton Pass recipient could make-up a third as well if it were unrestricted. However, well over 60 Pokemon learn the move and a good chunk of those are otherwise viable even. This would never approach the burden of proof unless a drastic shift occurred.

This would be akin to asking for us to ban Bulk Up as it broke Palafin and Annihilape despite it being such a widely spread move. Sure, we like the utility of Magearna and preserving it would be awesome, but that argument could be applied to any Uber Pokemon (such as Palafin or Annihilape, for example) and we cannot exactly pick our battles bast on specific favorites or niches here.

Light Clay at least is more realistic and possible to justify. Even that I see as unlikely for now, but within our tiering system, it could be more possible to reach an actionable point.

What about Tera Blast?

 

[Finchinator]

What about Tera Blast?

Tera Blast is a lot more feasible if it proves to cause a larger handful of Pokemon to be broken and it allows for salvaging a generational mechanic, but this is farfetched right now/not the full reality of the situation as things stand. It will be on the table if deemed appropriate later, but not super likely until proven otherwise.

 

[MegaScizor32]

totally irrelevant to what i said on spikes, good job having no arguments. it's completely true - how about you address the reasoning behind my take, instead of casting it as absurd & hoping the other non-thinkers here smirk along with you?

I wasnt disagreeing with you about your take on spikes, only your Tera stance. I was just pointing out the fact it hard to take the opinion serious when you also view Landorus-T as not being important in the metagame.

 

[Avira]

What about Tera Blast?

Tera Blast would have to be broken on so many mons that it would be better to ban it rather than the whole mechanic. So far, the only debate-ably broken or outright broken mons that heavily relied on Tera Blast to break things are Volcarona, Espathra, and Regieleki. That is far away from proving that Tera Blast is unhealthy or broken and in need of a ban.

 

[tigers jaw]

I wasnt disagreeing with you about your take on spikes, only your Tera stance. I was just pointing out the fact it hard to take the opinion serious when you also view Landorus-T as not being important in the metagame.

and yet, you've still not responded to my reasoning

 

[Supersam10001]

(Long post about Ursaluna)


Alright, everybody has to be in on one massive joke when they say this mon is good, let alone banworthy. I personally think this mon is completely fine, and would put it at around B+ in viability. Now, to be honest I have mixed feelings towards this mon and that's mostly to do with trick room, which I will address at the bottom.

First, I'll go over its strengths and why people think this mon is banworthy, and a counterargument for each. "This mon is unbeatable and gets 2+ kills per match!!!!!!!!" This sentiment towards luna, imo, is completely wrong. Yes it has insane calcs and yes it can OHKO/2HKO pretty much every relevant mon. However, it is still piss slow and still a guts mon. What this means is that it has to come in on either: an attack, or a pivot move (to "secure" a kill). The former is actually really hard to do whilst perserving your bear, since this mon has kinda mid bulk. 130/105/80 is absolutely amazing in a vacuum, with physical bulk comparable to max def Clef uninvested, but there's more than stats to a mon's bulk. Notably, luna has pretty bad weaknesses and its resists are mostly insignificant, aside from ghost immunity. This means that realistically, this mon isn't taking more than 2 hits (not an exact number, just an estimate based on fighting luna teams), severely lowering its chances of getting kills. More importantly, this mon effectively cannot carry an item and is stuck with flame orb + takes 1/16 chip every turn. Also, this mon hates spikes, which is only getting more popular due to the rise of H-samurott. It also deals contact damage for pretty much all of its moves except EQ. What this means is that you are stuck in an awkward position whenever your luna is out, as you have to pretty much make the right predict to get the kill, and if you don't, you probably took too much damage to come in next time (from burn, hazards, or helmet). If you do get the read right, you get a kill 99% of the time, which is really good, but not a new thing in OU. I would like to make some comparisons to some mons in oldgens to prove how this isn't really a factor that makes luna broken.

Gen 8 Conk has 0 switchins. Maybe 1 if you count Buzzwole. On top of that, it has enough bulk to take a hit and priority. Yet it's pretty shit because of its prediction-reliance and being slow as balls. Sure, it's not as strong or bulky as luna but it still functions around the same.

Gen 8 alolawak might be a weird comparison, but under TR they function similarly. Both claim kills under TR, with alolawak having a whopping 0 OU switchins and having serviceable bulk to get in, like switching into volc, vic, or even electrics with lightningrod. Arguably has a better STAB combo than luna, but with less bulk and raw power. You pretty much have to sac at least 1 mon when this comes in. This mon is so broken guys!!!

Probably the best comparison to luna. I would like to highlight specifically CB Mel, since its other sets deviate a bit too far from luna imo, focusing more on longevity and spreading status. CB Mel, especially under TR, has no concrete switchins while only using 1 move (DIB), easing prediction. Also has a nasty 51% flinch chance. Like Ursaluna, this set suffers from longevity and using contact moves.

Volcanion in gen 6 and 8 in particular is amazing at trading due to its bulk but lower speed. Gen 8 Volc runs more offensive "unwallable" sets (unless you have a slowking). Main way to beat this mon is to just attack it and accept the trade.

A few things I'd like to highlight, first, I'm aware that luna can just tera normal to OHKO more things and to remove ground weaknesses. Tera on this mon pretty much always guarantees a kill, there's no sugarcoating it. However, it arguably puts that player in the backfoot, since you're popping your tera already and if the mon in front attacked luna, it probably took ~30%+ as well as burn, hazards, etc. So now you used your single-use tera on a mon which can probably get OHKOd from strong special moves from this range. Meanwhile, the other player can probably tera to win the game with broken Mage or some other sweeper. Second, I don't really follow stall that much but I've heard that this mon decimates it. I consider this a non-argument since there have been popular mons from oldgens which also destroy stall, notably, oldgen heatran and magnezone. Kinda sucks for stall players but oh well.

Counterplay
The reason I'm so adamant on this opinion and keeping the bear in the tier is mainly because ironically, its pure strength means you don't really have to build around it. Counterplay usually devolves into in-game dynamics, which I been enjoying rn on ladder. I think the biggest way to beat it is to just accept it getting a single kill, and attacking it straight-up. Usually you'll do enough to the point where it can't switch in to anything anymore, making it pretty bad. Alternatively, dancing around its STABs is still an option which, if you get the 50/50 right, can result in a positional advantage + chip on the bear.

Physdef ID corv is already a good set for mons like dnite, which deals with luna quite nicely. Not a foolproof check since they can read the roost and use ground move, or simply switch out while you ID, leaving the corv low. Still massively annoying for luna.

Air balloon ghold is an amazing check since clicking fire punch is a hard commitment and you would have to know their set beforehand.

Again, not great checks but both of these, especially with a helmet, can slow down the luna rampage since both of them heavily threaten luna (grass knot on lando).

In general, I like this mon's presence since you don't have to pull out a completely unheard of set or mon to beat it, most teams have their ways around it.

Trick Room
Okay, this part is the most iffy part of this mon and what could change my mind about it. This mon straight up sweeps under TR. It's significantly harder to play around TR luna than non-TR, due to all the support it gets. 1) Magearna automatically makes TR better 2) Glowking can use lagging tail chilly reception to get the bear in 3) Cress and hatt can hwish the bear for free. However, I still think this mon isn't broken overall, even in TR. You guys have to realise that it's still TR we're talking about. Historically never a good choice in OU because of its inherent weaknesses. It's even more prediction-reliant than usual because of limited turns. Also you get 3 turns of attacking (potentially 2 since luna needs to get the flame orb up). Also, your setters are going to be sacced meaning these turns are even more limited - for example, using hwish to heal up luna removes one of your TR setters, and once you have no more TR, you cannot win in most situations. Also, aside from luna and mage, there aren't that many TR abusers, meaning the team is kinda putting it all in on luna. Glastrier is decent, but not comparable to gen 8 abusers like the aforementioned alolawak or crawdaunt. And just like these examples, they all require sacs to beat. The people who complain about luna's brokenness under TR have probably been spamming offense, which historically loses to TR. And if you play screens HO, luna isn't doing shit against you. Finally, with mage inevitably getting banned, TR will be shit again and luna's viability will drop off a cliff. Overall, I think luna making TR good is very fun and unique for the meta, since even melmetal couldn't do that in gen 8.

As a final footnote, if people start using new luna sets that prove to be good, I might change my mind and think this mon is broken. Let me know how much you disagree or agree with me, I'll be happy to change my mind because for now, I really do not get the ursaluna hype.

tl;dr ursaluna mid

While you may say that id corv can beat ursalana, it really can't. If you see the calc under trick room
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 396-466 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 368-434 (92.2 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
not really a counter more like something you have to sack so that you can bring your own broken mon out eventually.
The best counter to ursalana however is the goat, tera ghost cresselia which is one of the things you did not mention in your post cause maybe you overlooked it.
If they don't run crunch you wall it as shown by this calc-
+2 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Still loses to sd crunch which is quite common in this meta] Either way trick room is better than most archetypes barring maybe rain and hyper offense.]
So in the end you could kind of say that, Yes ursalana should be on the radar and not just a A+ completely balenced mon.

 

[Moyashi]

However, it is still piss slow and still a guts mon. What this means is that it has to come in on either: an attack, or a pivot move (to "secure" a kill). The former is actually really hard to do whilst perserving your bear, since this mon has kinda mid bulk. 130/105/80 is absolutely amazing in a vacuum, with physical bulk comparable to max def Clef uninvested, but there's more than stats to a mon's bulk. Notably, luna has pretty bad weaknesses and its resists are mostly insignificant, aside from ghost immunity. This means that realistically, this mon isn't taking more than 2 hits (not an exact number, just an estimate based on fighting luna teams), severely lowering its chances of getting kills.

Using a pivot move is nowhere near some Herculean task to fulfill. We have more viable and excellent pivots than before, Lando, RotomW, Zapdos, Galarian Slowking, TornT, Sneasler, and many more. You're also greatly overstating the weaknesses. Yeah water and ice weaknesses suck... Until you realize that nearly all our waters are fat mons, Bax and Pao for ice (the latter being mega broken). Grass attacks are basically Meow or bust
Fighting is the worst to deal with, but you have 5 teammates to solve this issue. Plus, Ursaluna can simply tera into a resistant type and get a second KO.

Ghosts are prominent, especially so with Dragapult and Gholdengo as common as they are. So getting the bear in front of a choice locked Pult or Gholdengo, is not hard. The elec immunity is also very nice with how nice Zapdos is. Also what you're not mentioning is the many great neutralities and positive match ups it has. Neutral hits plink off of it, so once its in, you can choose to chip it while sacking the Mon you've got out, or pick something else.

. It also deals contact damage for pretty much all of its moves except EQ. What this means is that you are stuck in an awkward position whenever your luna is out, as you have to pretty much make the right predict to get the kill, and if you don't, you probably took too much damage to come in next time (from burn, hazards, or helmet).

We have like one common helmet mon ATM (unless I'm forgetting something). Some people also have a weird idea that spikes are gonna always be up on Luna's side. Regarding your comparisons, Conk has a garbage typing and actually did have several switch ins, plus had a much much worse issue of needing to predict and struggled vs offense. Alowak is nowhere comparable. Frail, stealth rock weak and having many offensive checks which could still take one hit and chase it out. Melm is the best comparison, but even then the worse stab gives Luna the edge in terms of offense. And Volcanion isn't even related so I don't know why you mentioned it.

Basically, the difference between most of these and Luna is the bear has a ton of positive match ups to jump in and force awkward plays with. The metagame being so fast paced because of all the brokens running around makes it possible to just minimize by staying in and chipping it, but as the tier settles this is not going to be a healthy dynamic, especially considering bulky teams.

As for checks you listed....ID corv sucks because it gives free turns to all the ghosts and fliers in the tier. Air Balloon Gholdengo saw surge specifically due to the bear, and basically means you have to preserve said Mon specifically for it. Which means a partner Great Tusk has free reign to spin.

The people who complain about luna's brokenness under TR have probably been spamming offense, which historically loses to TR. And if you play screens HO, luna isn't doing shit against you. Finally, with mage inevitably getting banned, TR will be shit again and luna's viability will drop off a cliff.

Bulky teams suck into Luna, so the issue is that under TR neither offense nor defense can comfortably handle it without heavy prediction pivoting. Also regarding screens, Luna is very nice on screens too. and lastly, if you think mag is carrying TR viability... Lol. Glowking is a terrific setter itself, and we have plenty of viable setters between hatterene and cresselia, slowbroG and even weird stuff like Rabsca if you're desperate. Plus Luna works with semi TR and Glowking fulls that need too.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Banning moves is seldom appropriate or on-the-table. One-offs always go to the Pokemon and things like Stored Power would go to the Pokemon as well just as matters of consistent policy.

Honestly, between the move being so RNG heavy and more importantly sleep clause mod making matches with it completely unreproducable on cart, I think there's a valid case to be made for banning specifically Dire Claw over Sneasler. It's not just the usual case of "this move enables some mons to be too strong but there's nothing inherently wrong with the move itself". The move itself has serious implications for Smogon's relationship with cart.

In any case, I do think the people in charge of policy should look into revising the stance on move bans. If this trend of truly absurd moves being given to one or two Pokemon continues, I forsee awkward situations like Last Respects (were everyone knows the move is absolutely the problem and the only reason it's not banned was because of policy written in a time when moves were much tamer) becoming a lot more common.

 

[MegaScizor32]

tera also is way overdue the boot. when the next suspect happens, though, it should be a binary choice between ban & no ban. it is incoherent to give tera such special treatment in an effort to "normalise" it, in contradiction of smogon's tiering philosophy.

and yet, you've still not responded to my reasoning

I already explained my stance on tera in the original response. Tera preview should be the way to go. But you want either outright ban or nothing because of “contradiction of smogon’s tiering philosophy”.

 

[Avira]

I believe everyone who wants Tera banned in the long run should vote for Ban followed by Tera Preview during the next Tera Suspect. The odds are good that the Tera Preview meta will further push the meta towards offense, and that is when the pro-ban camp will be able to grow support for the movement since having Offense thrive at the expense of everything else is not conducive to a good meta. Offensive Pokemon have more midground plays against a defensive Pokemon's Tera after all since they have more attacking moves, and this should skew the advantage to offensive playstyles even further.

 

[tigers jaw]

I already explained my stance on tera in the original response. Tera preview should be the way to go. But you want either outright ban or nothing because of “contradiction of smogon’s tiering philosophy”.

i meant with regards to lando

tera preview doesn't even solve the primary issues with tera, at all. you still can't account for the meta at large in the builder, you still have to go through bullshit scenarios of them generating free turns out of nowhere, tera woulds still allow many pokemon to be overwhelmingly strong thanks to either double stab or the ability to bypass any would-be answers.

and yes, it is essentially the same as considering no-stab kyogre in reasoning, and opens the door to any sort of arbitrary normalisation, which goes directly against the methods of tiering supposedly employed by smogon.

 

[serperiorr]

While you may say that id corv can beat ursalana, it really can't. If you see the calc under trick room
+2 252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 396-466 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Ursaluna Facade (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Corviknight: 368-434 (92.2 - 108.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
not really a counter more like something you have to sack so that you can bring your own broken mon out eventually.
The best counter to ursalana however is the goat, tera ghost cresselia which is one of the things you did not mention in your post cause maybe you overlooked it.
If they don't run crunch you wall it as shown by this calc-
+2 252+ Atk Guts Tera Normal Ursaluna Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia: 192-226 (43.2 - 50.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

[Still loses to sd crunch which is quite common in this meta] Either way trick room is better than most archetypes barring maybe rain and hyper offense.]
So in the end you could kind of say that, Yes ursalana should be on the radar and not just a A+ completely balenced mon.

so you’re setting up TR, a swords dance, and also neglecting to calc +2 def corv. Of course its unwallable in TR, I addressed that in my post. I could give you a bunch of alolawak calcs to show you how nothing beats it under TR. Being unwallable in TR isn’t something that noteworthy

 

[Ramplestilskin]

I personally find it astonishing that light clay is being radared before stored power.

I can understand the statement that a lot of pokemon learn the move and are not uncompetitive but I do not really understand what it proves. As someone already said, Baton pass has been banned even though a whole lot of pokemon could learn the move while not being broken. And if we take into account lower tiers, the number of pokemon stored power broke is also larger (at least polteageist).

But anyway, I can still kind of agree that it makes sense to keep a move that has been used for years on many pokemon and not necessarily been unhealthy. However then Light Clay is brought up and I find it even more unjustified than stored power in the sense that it has been usable for a long time without being looked at and is not broken on the majority of dual screen setters that exist. I think only a few screen setters like Grimmsnarl + Pokemon that can abuse the dual screen (approximately the same one that could abuse shed tail back in the days, and ironically also the same one that can learn stored power) actually makes it broken, and this is even harder to prove than stored power because we don't really know if these pokemon would be fine without light clay, they may not even need the extra turns if all they need is one turn for set up.

So yeah, I repeat myself from my last post : I do not necessarily advocate for a stored power ban and I kind of understand arguments against it but a ban of light clay makes even less sense to me.

 

[tigers jaw]

i think taking any action on ursaluna would be a hasty misstep. once things shape up in the meta, and magearna is banned, trick room will once again be relegated to one fringe team that people use as a matchup fish, as with the previous couple of generations. the bear is just a bulky, unwallable, slow as fuck breaker that is dependant on trick room and carries all the flaws inherent to the playstyle.

 

[Karxrida]

Honestly, between the move being so RNG heavy and more importantly sleep clause mod making matches with it completely unreproducable on cart, I think there's a valid case to be made for banning specifically Dire Claw over Sneasler. It's not just the usual case of "this move enables some mons to be too strong but there's nothing inherently wrong with the move itself". The move itself has serious implications for Smogon's relationship with cart.

In any case, I do think the people in charge of policy should look into revising the stance on move bans. If this trend of truly absurd moves being given to one or two Pokemon continues, I forsee awkward situations like Last Respects (were everyone knows the move is absolutely the problem and the only reason it's not banned was because of policy written in a time when moves were much tamer) becoming a lot more common.

It'd be infinitely funnier if we just removed the mod part of Sleep Clause and just had it so you automatically lose if you sleep multiple opponents.

Wanna use Dire Claw? Sure, go ahead. But you better pray Lady Luck is on your side.

For real though I think we are long overdue for a Sleep Clause rework but nobody here wants to have that conversation.

 

[Cuddly]

The problem is clearly Magearna. Literally no one complained about either Light Clay or Stored Power until Home dropped and several people started screens HO snowballing: the Pokemon. Once Magearna is banned, watch as Light Clay and Stored Power mysteriously stop being discussed for banning.

It'd be infinitely funnier if we just removed the mod part of Sleep Clause and just had it so you automatically lose if you sleep multiple opponents.

Wanna use Dire Claw? Sure, go ahead. But you better pray Lady Luck is on your side.

For real though I think we are long overdue for a Sleep Clause rework but nobody here wants to have that conversation.

I made a post shortly after Home released about Sleep Clause, and this is probably the most unique take I’v seen on how to fix Sleep Clause.

 

[Avira]

It'd be infinitely funnier if we just removed the mod part of Sleep Clause and just had it so you automatically lose if you sleep multiple opponents.

Wanna use Dire Claw? Sure, go ahead. But you better pray Lady Luck is on your side.

For real though I think we are long overdue for a Sleep Clause rework but nobody here wants to have that conversation.

This is the best take I've seen in a while. Let's rework Sleep Clause. Changing Sleep Clause so that you can lose for putting multiple opponents to sleep will kill off Dire Claw usage since every time you use it after the first mon you sleep puts you at risk of losing. This will end nonsensical gameplay that allows for someone to Spore Blissey and then Spore again when Blissey switches out, not that I'm suggesting that Blissey is good or anything. I am just not fond of that sort of interaction. It will also make people think twice before using Effect Spore, not that that ability is relevant in OU. People shouldn't be rewarded for fishing for sleep.

 

[Eeveeto]

Regarding Light Clay, while I don't support the Ban, there is precedent, it was already banned in UU last Gen. So, it's legit to look it up, despite Magearna being the actual problem (though the Spece set doesn't actually use the Screens).

 

[serperiorr]

Using a pivot move is nowhere near some Herculean task to fulfill. We have more viable and excellent pivots than before, Lando, RotomW, Zapdos, Galarian Slowking, TornT, Sneasler, and many more. You're also greatly overstating the weaknesses. Yeah water and ice weaknesses suck... Until you realize that nearly all our waters are fat mons, Bax and Pao for ice (the latter being mega broken). Grass attacks are basically Meow or bust
Fighting is the worst to deal with, but you have 5 teammates to solve this issue. Plus, Ursaluna can simply tera into a resistant type and get a second KO.

I agree with most of these points, yes, pivot moves are great. But even with a pivot move luna isn’t likely to be faster than the mon you switch in on unless it’s Glowking (which is admittedly a great trait to have rn). Thus you can still attack the bear in front of you and force a trade. Also you have 5 other mons to switch into making luna have to predict in some scenarios. “waters are fat mons” is false imo since everyone is spamming rain and there are prominent non-passive waters eg Rotom, Azu, Volcanion. Chien pao is probably gonna get banned so that’s 1 threat for luna gone, but while it is here it’s still a decent check to luna.

Also what you're not mentioning is the many great neutralities and positive match ups it has. Neutral hits plink off of it, so once its in, you can choose to chip it while sacking the Mon you've got out, or pick something else.

Yeah the neutralities, especially with tera, are nice, but this mon still takes a sizeable amount from special moves and you also neglect to address flame orb + hazards which are spammed everywhere coz of H Samurott.

We have like one common helmet mon ATM (unless I'm forgetting something).

Lando, Tusk, Corv, Chomp, Amoonguss

Some people also have a weird idea that spikes are gonna always be up on Luna's side.

Ceaseless edge is everywhere.

Regarding your comparisons, Conk has a garbage typing and actually did have several switch ins, plus had a much much worse issue of needing to predict and struggled vs offense. Alowak is nowhere comparable. Frail, stealth rock weak and having many offensive checks which could still take one hit and chase it out. Melm is the best comparison, but even then the worse stab gives Luna the edge in terms of offense. And Volcanion isn't even related so I don't know why you mentioned it.

Luna pretty much has a lot of the good qualities of these mons combined, of course it’s better than conk which is a shitmon, and alolawak was just to prove under TR being unwallable isn’t a claim to fame. Volcanion was chosen since the way you deal with both are similar, and you usually end up trading vs it. Not broken.

Basically, the difference between most of these and Luna is the bear has a ton of positive match ups to jump in and force awkward plays with. The metagame being so fast paced because of all the brokens running around makes it possible to just minimize by staying in and chipping it, but as the tier settles this is not going to be a healthy dynamic, especially considering bulky teams.

Hard disagree on calling a mon broken while theorycrafting what the future meta is… You can’t base a ban off of that. Also, fat historically tends to adapt overtime so it’s even harder to tell.

As for checks you listed....ID corv sucks because it gives free turns to all the ghosts and fliers in the tier. Air Balloon Gholdengo saw surge specifically due to the bear, and basically means you have to preserve said Mon specifically for it. Which means a partner Great Tusk has free reign to spin.

Agree and disagree. You’re acting like luna will always stay at 100%, simply switching in luna and hitting the corv is already doing a lot since you do helm + burn + hazards chip and when luna comes back another round of that. The ghold point tho I somewhat agree with, but keep in mind that you’re not running balloon just for the bear, so it’s quite a flexible check throughout a game. And not a free spin for tusk since ghold eats EQ unless offensive tusk.

Bulky teams suck into Luna, so the issue is that under TR neither offense nor defense can comfortably handle it without heavy prediction pivoting.

In a vacuum I agree, and as I said TR might change my mind on this. But the luna player has to make heavy risks throughout the game and get some predicts right. Not banworthy imo.

and lastly, if you think mag is carrying TR viability... Lol.

Yes.

 

[MegaScizor32]

tera preview doesn't even solve the primary issues with tera, at all. you still can't account for the meta at large in the builder, you still have to go through bullshit scenarios of them generating free turns out of nowhere, tera woulds still allow many pokemon to be overwhelmingly strong thanks to either double stab or the ability to bypass any would-be answers.

and yes, it is essentially the same as considering no-stab kyogre in reasoning, and opens the door to any sort of arbitrary normalisation, which goes directly against the methods of tiering supposedly employed by smogon.

well when the meta stabilizes more, we will get to see which tera types and Pokémon are more necessary to account for in the teambuilder. Though in any meta you cant account for every pokemon possible and at times can outright lose to certain matchups no matter the preparation.

Tera preview fixes the problem of figuring out which tera type a Pokemon has. This helps the player gameplan against the opponent and play around tera.

Personally i love the idea of double stab and destroying would-be checks but that’s just me. My playstyle is Hyper Offense/ Offense so I love the idea of an explosive metagame where I can blow things up.

 

[Delibird Heart]

View attachment 521862View attachment 521862View attachment 521862 BIRD ALERT View attachment 521862View attachment 521862View attachment 521862

blah blah torn t good use it​

Just in addition to this post, this was too funny not to show... Here's another replay featuring torn-t:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9ou-1876108960

 

[tigers jaw]

well when the meta stabilizes more, we will get to see which tera types and Pokémon are more necessary to account for in the teambuilder. Though in any meta you cant account for every pokemon possible and at times can outright lose to certain matchups no matter the preparation.

Tera preview fixes the problem of figuring out which tera type a Pokemon has. This helps the player gameplan against the opponent and play around tera.

Personally i love the idea of double stab and destroying would-be checks but that’s just me. My playstyle is Hyper Offense/ Offense so I love the idea of an explosive metagame where I can blow things up.

i'm aware that no team can securely cover every threat in a meta, regardless of the generation, and will have to make sacrifices in some parts - my point is that terastallize amps this matchup-orientated volatility to an unacceptable degree. this isn't even taking into consideration the in-game dynamics around terastallize.

i also play almost exclusively hyper offence, and have done since late ss. i don't see why terastallize is necessary for such teams, as we have many offensive powerhouses regardless. it's all well & good to advocate for things that make the meta more explosive, but that comes at the cost of competitiveness, which is the goal of tiering on smogon in the first place.