Rest with shed skin seems kinda cool
-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Resource SV LC Viability Rankings
- Thread starter Hacker
- Start date
I was under the assumption that rest with shed skin makes rest fail
Edit: I was wrong but I think I still prefer recover over rest
Try the set before nominating it. During the LCWL I decided to try this:
Rellor @ Oran Berry
Ability: Shed Skin
Level: 5
Tera Type: Bug (don,t remember the actual Tera type I tried back then, but its irrelevant).
EVs: 188 HP / 36 Atk / 196 Def / 52 SpD / 36 Spe
Impish Nature
- Bug Bite
- Thief
- Cosmic Power
- Recover
The message PS did to me when I tried to submit the team was this:
"Your team was rejected for the following reasons: - Cosmic Power is not obtainable without hacking or glitches in Gen 9. "
It means that despite learning the Move, its not available at level 5. It does learn Iron Defense but its still big trash, the hazard (and removal) support it needs to work is way too much and not worth it.
Snom, Tarountula, Venonat and Pineco all look like better Bugs to experiment with.
sorry im not able to use showdown right now to check but if thats true il take down my post
NotJackewu
Banned deucer.
Just change Cosmic Power to Iron Defense.
Here to add results in favor of Rellor C-
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1842993891-ekxcbrw7dmwvdie0xd8b2i3qape24d0pw
yeah Iron Defense might be good instead of cosmic
its time for probably the last VR update until home drops and gives us a few mons maybe idk.
Rises
Drifloon ->A
Wingull -> A-
Shellder -> A-
Axew -> C
Drops
Toedscool -> A+
Larvesta -> B+
Foongus -> B
Mankey -> B
i should probably talk about some of these
drifloon is an excellent mon in the current meta being able to defog, spread burns, switch into toedscool, etc. also is the second best spinblocker for webs teams
wingulls 19 speed is a great tool for a lot of teams while also having a great matchup vs common stuff like webs and crabrawler. knock off / turn are also both great utility that this thing has
shellder has proven to be the best shell smasher in the tier with tera rock being very solid being able to get crucial kos on some of its best answers as well as setup on what is currently the metas best pokemon in diglett
toedscool is still an excellent pokemon and the best removal in the tier just it isnt quite on the same level of dominance as diglett
larvesta is quite hard to fit on teams while still maintaining a solid structure, also its supposed to be a crabrawler check but tera fire still beats it. it requires a bit too much support to be worthy of being in A- and its upsides arent good enough to justify it
mankey has gotten a lot worse due to the rise of solid ghost types like hisu zorua, drifloon, and greavard all being very annoying for it with fighting stab being difficult to lock into
and that is all
Rises
Drifloon ->A
Wingull -> A-
Shellder -> A-
Axew -> C
Drops
Toedscool -> A+
Larvesta -> B+
Foongus -> B
Mankey -> B
i should probably talk about some of these
drifloon is an excellent mon in the current meta being able to defog, spread burns, switch into toedscool, etc. also is the second best spinblocker for webs teams wingulls 19 speed is a great tool for a lot of teams while also having a great matchup vs common stuff like webs and crabrawler. knock off / turn are also both great utility that this thing has shellder has proven to be the best shell smasher in the tier with tera rock being very solid being able to get crucial kos on some of its best answers as well as setup on what is currently the metas best pokemon in diglett toedscool is still an excellent pokemon and the best removal in the tier just it isnt quite on the same level of dominance as diglett larvesta is quite hard to fit on teams while still maintaining a solid structure, also its supposed to be a crabrawler check but tera fire still beats it. it requires a bit too much support to be worthy of being in A- and its upsides arent good enough to justify it mankey has gotten a lot worse due to the rise of solid ghost types like hisu zorua, drifloon, and greavard all being very annoying for it with fighting stab being difficult to lock intoand that is all
there is ubers, which sounds reasonable.
its our only arena trap mon rn so smogon policy wont allow an arena trap ban right? but weve seen sub par mons get used just for trap before (not like there are many trappers in the game but all have seen use in like every generation mmmhhh)
tera counts almost as much as a whole mon, its so powerful and keeping it for late is important most of the time. through arena trap dig had been a tough to handle offensive mon before but now it puts even more pressure forcing mons that would normally beat it to tera and even sometimes adapting back to cover for its targets teras. that on top of its flexibility, one sidedness (because it can use sub and protect well and use those to scout teras and not even commit to anything).
without arena trap diglett would be kinda weak with 15 attack ngl, you could scout it out, dance around and even counter it maybe. but even if not, what makes diglett such a disgusting poke is that you dont get to choose your own sack, whatever your opponent decided you will lose.
and all of this is just abour lorb diglett.
no evio, no sash, no balloon, no rocks, no final gambit, no memento
personally dont even consider toed a reasonable pick because Dig should just be on almost evry team, there are other knocker grasses and hazard removal mons and it doesnt even beat diglett a lot of the time.
apart from the common (+ well discussed) flying and ice tera fire is also very good on diglett and tera electric is worth consideration. diglett has no defensive profile so it barely couts as a ground but doesnt matter much, ground is good in both directions and dig makes the most out of it. Ive seen dig and toed on the same team just because grounds are so versatile
Last edited:
I think wingull should be a or even a+ tier. The key thing about it is the speed tier. it's one of the rare pokemon to reliably outspeed the 17 speed threshold, can hit every meta relevant mon for at least neutral. It's a pokemon that is honestly amazing. it's just an extremely splashble pokemon that does amazing in every mu almsot every mu just cuz of its speed and stab combo. The fact it can kinda muscle paste pawn with evio is also pretty important.
Speaking of pokemon with more than 17 speed, I think shroodle is at least a-. Its the only poison that isnt trap weak ( or forces dig to tera at worst, if it even has tera dark) so Its amazing vs tspikes. it also jsut packs a lot of utility in general with moves like knock, pivoting moves, copycat, encoreand metronome. It's just an all around solid mon.
Speaking of pokemon with more than 17 speed, I think shroodle is at least a-. Its the only poison that isnt trap weak ( or forces dig to tera at worst, if it even has tera dark) so Its amazing vs tspikes. it also jsut packs a lot of utility in general with moves like knock, pivoting moves, copycat, encore
I think Wingull is good, but I also think A- should be its home. Its really good offensively, but its less good defensively, since it is a flying type that doesn't switch into Toedscool, is immediately threatened with 3 hit rock blast from Diglett, and is generally just frail into most stuff even w/o rocks up. It does do a really good job griefing webs teams, and a good number of balances have been forgoing water resists (even most of those want nothing to do with wingull). It does have notable bad matchups though, such as Gothita, Voltorb + to a lesser extent other electrics, and some tera techs such as Crabrawler tera electric tpunch. Its really hard to switch into, but bc of its accuracy and frailty its not as consistent as higher up mons.
Other Noms:
to B+/A- - This thing has frail defenses, and is hugely weak to Tera Dark Diglett unless you also Tera. In spite of that, its somehow among the most annoying mons to actually KO since it just parting shots and encores all over you if you don't have that specific threat. It has amazing synergy with trappers with knock + pivot moves, and can either be great speed control into setup/other non attacks with prankster encore or use prankster copycat to be an anti web tech + be a threat to snowball with Tera boosted knocks + still be decent speed control into other stuff. It does have some 4mss since it needs knock + parting shot + prob u-turn, but wants encore, copycat, and gunk shot in its last slot for a variety of important targets. it is much better than B tier since its consistent and amazing utility into everything not named Tera Dark Diglett. I agree with Papillon on this one mostly.
to B/B+ - Tinkatink was good in Rufflet meta, and then after that everyone slowly dismissed it for being a worse Pawniard with no real use. Its still not great, but its bulkier spreads can actually live a Diglett Earthquake from full, and its ability Pickpocket allows it to steal items if something tries to knock it. Its still passive, but knock + Twave + Ice hammer + Stealth rock allow it to be a hard to defog/spin against rocker that isn't safe setup fodder. Mostly, its just a really bulky Pokemon that tends to live most individual hits though and isn't too scared by most disguises Zorua-H can put up turn 1.
to A- - Mareanie is still good at its job of being a tank, but its weaknesses to knock off, trappers, Toedscool, and Wattrel have been more reliably exploited, and it is therefore not as consistent as A and above. Mareanie can still do its job vs smashers and Pawniard, and apart from Diglett it lives most individual hits though.
Other Noms:
to B+/A- - This thing has frail defenses, and is hugely weak to Tera Dark Diglett unless you also Tera. In spite of that, its somehow among the most annoying mons to actually KO since it just parting shots and encores all over you if you don't have that specific threat. It has amazing synergy with trappers with knock + pivot moves, and can either be great speed control into setup/other non attacks with prankster encore or use prankster copycat to be an anti web tech + be a threat to snowball with Tera boosted knocks + still be decent speed control into other stuff. It does have some 4mss since it needs knock + parting shot + prob u-turn, but wants encore, copycat, and gunk shot in its last slot for a variety of important targets. it is much better than B tier since its consistent and amazing utility into everything not named Tera Dark Diglett. I agree with Papillon on this one mostly. to B/B+ - Tinkatink was good in Rufflet meta, and then after that everyone slowly dismissed it for being a worse Pawniard with no real use. Its still not great, but its bulkier spreads can actually live a Diglett Earthquake from full, and its ability Pickpocket allows it to steal items if something tries to knock it. Its still passive, but knock + Twave + Ice hammer + Stealth rock allow it to be a hard to defog/spin against rocker that isn't safe setup fodder. Mostly, its just a really bulky Pokemon that tends to live most individual hits though and isn't too scared by most disguises Zorua-H can put up turn 1. to A- - Mareanie is still good at its job of being a tank, but its weaknesses to knock off, trappers, Toedscool, and Wattrel have been more reliably exploited, and it is therefore not as consistent as A and above. Mareanie can still do its job vs smashers and Pawniard, and apart from Diglett it lives most individual hits though.
Quick noms so I can farm haha reacts (also real opinions)
to A
Imo Wattrel is just a cut above the other mons in A-, it’s an amazing pivot and has good matchups around the board, threatening common mons such as toedscool, drifloon, and crabrawler. Unlike voltorb, it doesn’t need to Tera to threaten the grounds. Also pretty easy to get value out of, pretty much never a dead weight.
to B+
Quaxly is still a decent Mon, and encore sets can mess up defensive teams. However, as a spinner it can’t break through the spinblockers very easily or reliably. It’s all too easy to get knocked and trapped or pressured. It’s also generally fodder for shell smashers and can’t really check them reliably. Still a decent Mon, but has some problems that I think makes it not A tier
to B-
Scarf is a decent set comparable to scarf larvesta. Solid at making midgame progress with just its stabs and Tera blast, able to run smth like destiny bond in last slot. It doesn’t instantly die to rocks like Larvesta does, and resists sucker punch, letting it clean with better ease.
to ban
to AImo Wattrel is just a cut above the other mons in A-, it’s an amazing pivot and has good matchups around the board, threatening common mons such as toedscool, drifloon, and crabrawler. Unlike voltorb, it doesn’t need to Tera to threaten the grounds. Also pretty easy to get value out of, pretty much never a dead weight.
to B+Quaxly is still a decent Mon, and encore sets can mess up defensive teams. However, as a spinner it can’t break through the spinblockers very easily or reliably. It’s all too easy to get knocked and trapped or pressured. It’s also generally fodder for shell smashers and can’t really check them reliably. Still a decent Mon, but has some problems that I think makes it not A tier
to B-Scarf is a decent set comparable to scarf larvesta. Solid at making midgame progress with just its stabs and Tera blast, able to run smth like destiny bond in last slot. It doesn’t instantly die to rocks like Larvesta does, and resists sucker punch, letting it clean with better ease.
to ban
Last edited:
currently murdering low ladder with a dig/toed/pawn core along with tera fire zorua for even more coverage on opposing pawniard and killing tera ice diglett/shellder. Ground as a type is disgustingly broken rn.
this may be a little premature and also not the most important addition but Larvitar is really good as a spdef wall and can do rocks and set up effectively rn.
voltorb, wattrel, drifloon, zorua all are targets for it. with tera water it can even turn reanie into fodder and beats its tera water sets 1v1 with potential to sweep.
196 SpA Drifloon Hex (130 BP) vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
196 SpA Tera Fighting Drifloon Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
116 Atk Tera Fighting Drifloon Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Larvitar: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
4 Atk Guts Larvitar Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 164 Def Tera Fighting Drifloon: 6-6 (24 - 24%) -- approx. 5HKO (enough to break sub)
236 SpA Zorua-Hisui Hex (130 BP) vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
236 SpA Tera Fighting Zorua-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
even tera water coco doesnt beat it because it doesnt make any progress and still might get two shot by rock blast from 13 attack larv. if you manage to get burned you can one shot even tera coco trying to stall you (albeit unlikely, but it cant heal on you, even pre burn its tough.) so at most it can get chunked and roar or maybe play tera blast but idk about that ngl
its typing makes it a natural check to some pokes like shroodle on the off chance there is nothing better to use it against.
the set Ive used:
Larvitar @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Atk / 196 SpD / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rock Blast
- Dragon Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
suggestions alternative splits I think could have some value: (i hope links are allowed)
https://pokepast.es/9b4705b5ffb85d7c
voltorb, wattrel, drifloon, zorua all are targets for it. with tera water it can even turn reanie into fodder and beats its tera water sets 1v1 with potential to sweep.
196 SpA Drifloon Hex (130 BP) vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 10-13 (43.4 - 56.5%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO after burn damage
196 SpA Tera Fighting Drifloon Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
116 Atk Tera Fighting Drifloon Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 0+ Def Eviolite Larvitar: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
4 Atk Guts Larvitar Rock Blast (2 hits) vs. 0 HP / 164 Def Tera Fighting Drifloon: 6-6 (24 - 24%) -- approx. 5HKO (enough to break sub)
236 SpA Zorua-Hisui Hex (130 BP) vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
236 SpA Tera Fighting Zorua-Hisui Tera Blast vs. 116 HP / 196 SpD Eviolite Larvitar: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after burn damage
even tera water coco doesnt beat it because it doesnt make any progress and still might get two shot by rock blast from 13 attack larv. if you manage to get burned you can one shot even tera coco trying to stall you (albeit unlikely, but it cant heal on you, even pre burn its tough.) so at most it can get chunked and roar or maybe play tera blast but idk about that ngl
its typing makes it a natural check to some pokes like shroodle on the off chance there is nothing better to use it against.
the set Ive used:
Larvitar @ Eviolite
Ability: Guts
Level: 5
Tera Type: Water
EVs: 116 HP / 4 Atk / 196 SpD / 188 Spe
Impish Nature
- Rock Blast
- Dragon Dance
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
suggestions alternative splits I think could have some value: (i hope links are allowed)
https://pokepast.es/9b4705b5ffb85d7c
Last edited:
you keep saying 'even burned' but you do realize that guts gives it a boost to its attack after it is burned?
that I keep saying it is a little much, I said it once
youre right tho, my formulation is bad and Ill edit my post
pretty uncharitable to assume I dont know about guts when I recommend a physical mon against all relevant willo users in the tier
Following the ban of Diglett which has been a long time coming, I’ve noticed a few mons are doing a bit better or worse because of it.
D -> B-
I absolutely love this mon, and now that it doesn’t have to worry about instantly dying to rock blast diglett, I think it deserves better than D tier. It’s already good defenses plus snow warning boost and Eviolite mean it’s hard to touch without a super effective move. Crab threatens it a lot, as well as other fighting or fire types, but those honestly aren’t very common. Factor in powerful moves like Blizzard (which btw DOESN’T MISS in snow) and amazing recovery in Leech seed and Gdrain and you start to see why it just doesn’t belong in the same tier as Stunky.
A -> A-
It was here to be a check to Diglett. Diglett is gone. Drifloon now loses one of its strengths. I don’t know what else I need to explain here. And yes, I hear you, random guy saying, “but it spinblocks too!” Zorua-H is a better spin blocker in almost every way, plus you don’t even know it’s Zorua until it’s too late and you’ve wasted a turn using rapid spin on what you thought was a Quaxly. Drifloon can’t compete with that.
Finally, this has nothing to do with the Diglett ban, it’s just an untiered mon I’ve been experimenting with.
to D
Now imagine this. You lead with rookidee while your opponent leads with a shroodle/impidimp. They try to use (insert status move name here). You Tera dark, blocking the prankster move, and go for Agility. With investment, rookidee now outspeeds the whole tier. The prankster mon is now useless, so they swap out. You click hone claws. Now you have +2 speed and +1 attack and accuracy. Now you can use power trip, which does more damage cause of Tera dark. I haven’t done a whole lot of research, but this kills a lot of mons that don’t resist dark. I don’t think rookidee will be that good because of how situational it is but if Stunky can be in D, rookidee deserves a shot.
D -> B-I absolutely love this mon, and now that it doesn’t have to worry about instantly dying to rock blast diglett, I think it deserves better than D tier. It’s already good defenses plus snow warning boost and Eviolite mean it’s hard to touch without a super effective move. Crab threatens it a lot, as well as other fighting or fire types, but those honestly aren’t very common. Factor in powerful moves like Blizzard (which btw DOESN’T MISS in snow) and amazing recovery in Leech seed and Gdrain and you start to see why it just doesn’t belong in the same tier as Stunky.
A -> A-It was here to be a check to Diglett. Diglett is gone. Drifloon now loses one of its strengths. I don’t know what else I need to explain here. And yes, I hear you, random guy saying, “but it spinblocks too!” Zorua-H is a better spin blocker in almost every way, plus you don’t even know it’s Zorua until it’s too late and you’ve wasted a turn using rapid spin on what you thought was a Quaxly. Drifloon can’t compete with that.
Finally, this has nothing to do with the Diglett ban, it’s just an untiered mon I’ve been experimenting with.
to DNow imagine this. You lead with rookidee while your opponent leads with a shroodle/impidimp. They try to use (insert status move name here). You Tera dark, blocking the prankster move, and go for Agility. With investment, rookidee now outspeeds the whole tier. The prankster mon is now useless, so they swap out. You click hone claws. Now you have +2 speed and +1 attack and accuracy. Now you can use power trip, which does more damage cause of Tera dark. I haven’t done a whole lot of research, but this kills a lot of mons that don’t resist dark. I don’t think rookidee will be that good because of how situational it is but if Stunky can be in D, rookidee deserves a shot.
Last edited:
hell nah u sleeping on stunky, this shit gon be at least B soon
Untiered-> B-. Here’s a hot take, swablu might do something. Not only with amazing defenses and two immunities to take advantage of, it can also use the wide range of its moves and decent special attack that with moonblast with a decent amount of sp attack invest can OHKO pawn. It also gets the hardly resisted dragon pulse.It also is tanky enough to use Defogger well along with coverage like heatwave and ice beam. I understand this is not watteral, this is one of the tankiest flying types of the tier
Last edited:
As a general reminder, do not make nominations for untiered Pokemon unless you have significant (i.e tournament) replays and calcs (i.e plausible situations) to back up your claim. These should be extremely few and far between and generally should not rely on one gimmick or your opponent misplaying to be good.
i think toeds is pretty clearly the best mon in the tier, it is so hard not putting it on your team because of its REALLY good movepool, stats and tera.
crab and pawn are still really good, but crab is just the best win condition in the tier and not really something you can slot into every team, meanwhile toeds is here being able to fit onto literally every playstyle and 99% of the time, it does something really useful. meanwhile pawn is also a very solid win con and attacker that can check some really irritating mons like drifloon, but i still think toeds is better. you cant guarantee pawn is going to do something every match and if you have a rocker on your team already then sometimes you just dont want it. toeds also has the annoying quality of being super hard to switch into. every mon in the tier list hates taking spore, knock off, earth power or grass coverage. not even mentioning its other more niche but still potentially good options like slotting in spikes/tspikes or ive even seen tera ice tera blast to bait in and smack opposing toeds and watt a couple of times on the ladder. overall this mon is crazy useful and solidly the best mon in the tier.
oh yeah
i wont get into this rn but yeah watt is really really good and definitely the best electric type in the tier. impossible to switch into, fits on basically every team, able to switch into things like toeds and pawn, a potentially good spinblocker, its really good.
time for my noms before evil fiend updates this again
to s: ive never stopped thinking its the best mon in the tier and, now having played digless meta, i still think it is. its super hard to switch into, it gives you a lot of utility, i fills holes up on your team w its moves and it is always useful in every match.
to a: it really is a devastating sweeper, but i think its also usually manageable if played correctly and its little defensive utility makes it a bit overrated in my eyes.
to a+: these mons are crazy good and have been for a while. their speed alone makes them a check to everything, and i think they have incredible defensive utility bc of that, coupled w unresisted stabs for both, which couple perfectly w trapping.
to a: its only two weaknesses imo are rocks and trapping. its super good without them, checking or being able to 1v1 a shit ton of the metagame
to a- with shellder: they are the same fucking mon and thus theyre just as good
to a-/b+: i think this mon is just an inferior version of drifloon that can knock and check crab better in exchange of having a lot less defensive utility
everything else idrc except sandile and tink, which i still think are rlly good as i explained in another post, and stunky, which benefits a lot from no dig and can be really menacing w 18 speed being super good
to s: ive never stopped thinking its the best mon in the tier and, now having played digless meta, i still think it is. its super hard to switch into, it gives you a lot of utility, i fills holes up on your team w its moves and it is always useful in every match. to a: it really is a devastating sweeper, but i think its also usually manageable if played correctly and its little defensive utility makes it a bit overrated in my eyes. to a+: these mons are crazy good and have been for a while. their speed alone makes them a check to everything, and i think they have incredible defensive utility bc of that, coupled w unresisted stabs for both, which couple perfectly w trapping. to a: its only two weaknesses imo are rocks and trapping. its super good without them, checking or being able to 1v1 a shit ton of the metagame to a- with shellder: they are the same fucking mon and thus theyre just as good to a-/b+: i think this mon is just an inferior version of drifloon that can knock and check crab better in exchange of having a lot less defensive utilityeverything else idrc except sandile and tink, which i still think are rlly good as i explained in another post, and stunky, which benefits a lot from no dig and can be really menacing w 18 speed being super good
Last edited:
yay, time for a massive nomination post! i believe there are lots of changes to do, so let me pinpoint them real quick before the VR updates.
a -> a+
drifloon is so easy to play and easy to fit in many teams due to it being the only viable defog user in the metagame, and benefits more so thanks to pawniard falling off. it does an amazing job spreading status problems with will-o-wisp and thunder wave to keep stuff like non-tera fire crabrawler, pawniard and nymble in check, and it's one of the spinblockers that doesn't mind entering toedscool thanks to acrobatics. it can also choose to run destiny bond which ensures it takes at least one pokemon out per game, essentially doing a lot for its team, or endure to trigger oran berry in a pinch. acehunter's scarf set, while gimmicky, lets it also act as a good will-o-wisp absorber, being able to take out hisuian zorua and toedscool with flare boost tera flying tera blast, showing this pokemon can also have a lot of offensive potential in very specific teams that use fast paced pokemon.
a- -> a
look i know i should elaborate on this but isn't the high usage it has gotten in many events/ladder + the ability to be a huge nuisance to almost everything in the meta enough proof wattrel should rise?
hehe funny voltorb clicks electric stab, and it does so without little to no restraint. since it's very straightforward, it can use tera ice without many problems to kill non tera'd watt and toedscool, and it is the fastest pokemon in the meta. protect avoids nymble rkilling and it can also use taunt to shutdown any attempt to provide utility, but it's niche.
all of these up to a-
mudbray is one of the few pokemon that can deal with wattrel and flying-types consistently thanks to its bulk and rock tomb, allowing it to take two hurricanes from wattrel from full and check wingull and floon via tera steel. since it has an already huge attack stat even when it has bulk, it also manages to check and beat non sd pawniard, glimmet, and torb w/o tera, putting pressure on the opposing team.
magnemite enjoys diglett's departure, since it can now freely click electric stabs without getting punished for it. only thing that annoys it is wattrel, but tera steel analytic is able to net the 2hko after rocks on it, or it can also just run tera blast ice to nuke watt and toed out of the way. it is also good when paired with wattrel or voltorb since it makes good momentum cores able to chip down the enemy.
nymble, while it does not enjoy floon rising up even more, is still the best revenge killer in the metagame, and it is ensured to do its job solidly against weakened foes. if i am not wrong, it can choose to tera bug if its team doesn't require another tera user as a wincon in order to deal severe damage to resists like crab, watt and pawn.
shroodle is crazy fast, can absorb tspikes, has knock off + uturn to provide utility, and copycat lets it spam it more freely against any pokemon that is not a dark-type. diglett being gone means it can switch out more freely via parting shot, which also provides really good momentum for its team in setup spam teams, while encore helps a lot against pokemon like shellder, glimmet, etc
c -> b/b+
bramblin may not look solid but the ability to handle watt and gull's hurricane while being able to check mudbray and quaxly gives it enough credit to use it. it is a fast spinner able to set up spikes and generate a lot of momentum by forcing switches, but it can only be used in specific teams that require role compression to spinblock and remove hazards, in which floon does much better, but falls short against wattrel. this pokemon truly shines in webs where all the grounded 17 speed users and faster are not able to outspeed it, meaning it can also spinblock toed more consistently, but it can also see use outside of these teams. if spikes are not needed, it can also run shadow sneak despite it being pathetically weak to pick up floon, but power whip is strong enough to 2hko toed and take a chunk of health out from bulky threats. the biggest issue about this pokemon is losing to pawniard and hisuian zorua, but i don't think it should go overlooked.
b- -> b+
i think it's crazy stunky has been neglected a rise because of diglett existing. its typing, speed and coverage lets it handle a huge plethora of metagame threats like gothita, hisuian zorua, drifloon and pawniard, while it can also absorb tspikes and win the 1v1 against shroodle no matter what. physical sets let it hit stuff like crabrawler with play rough and wattrel and toedscool hard while also being able to pick up weakened foes with sucker punch and set tspikes, while nasty plot sets manage to net the 2hko on mare with +2 dpulse. only drawback about np stunky is how crazy weak it is, but tera bug circumvents this issue by letting it be able to manage crabrawler and toedscool more comfortably, while not losing to mudbray either. previously, aftermath was run to kill rapid spinners when weakened, but since it became predictable, stench has become its best ability. while an added 10% flinch chance may not look like much, if you manage a flinch the tides can change very swiftly against an 18 speed setup sweeper like it is.
c -> b
oh yeah uh tinkatink is a little too low here. pickpocket lets it become able to "absorb" knock off, while it can paralyze faster stuff and set stealth rock, and it's one of the few mons able to switch in comfortably into nymble. ice hammer lets it kill wattrel after rocks/knock off and toedscool on the switch, and it provides a lot of utility even under dire circumstances. it can also check floon comfortably
webs in general has improved with diglett being gone, increasing the amount of viable pokemon even further. i am going to only cite two of the pokemon i am most familiarized with.
b- -> b
sandile's typing and speed let it become one of the best webs abusers in the metagame thanks to the stab combo in crunch + eq, while it also runs protect to avoid getting revenge killed by nymble. it is also a decent stealth rock user, allowing it to force switches and put those up, or use tera blast flying/ice to beat toedscool and one to choose between crabrawler and wattrel. one issue it has is that it's not really strong initially, but it can become a huge problem if the opposing team gets chipped enough to enable a snowball sweep.
ur -> c/b-
i have had a blast recently with cufant on webs since there is no diglett to annoy it. while its offensive capabilities are incredible on paper, with sheer force boosted iron head/play rough/rock slide damage to hit the majority of the meta for damage, its defensive qualities make it a really cool stealth rock setter able to find a niche in webs teams. the set i use goes like this:
cufant makes use of heavy metal to ensure heavy slam is 120 BP against almost every pokemon in the metagame, meaning it can make use of stealth rock more often against non-resisting pokemon that might get 2hko'ed, while it can use brick break to beat pawniard, or earthquake to hit mareanie and tera electric/fire crab. rock tomb is a must to deal with flying-types and be able to threaten them out, as watt and gull get 2hko'ed, but cufant must be careful of gull's knock off. tera ghost lets cufant be able to become an emergency spinblocker and brute force its way against toedscool w/o tera, escape gothita trying to trap it with tera blast fighting, and avoid crabrawler's drain punch. if i had a replay of this pokemon successfully working, i'd link it but i have lost it. in any case, i'd suggest you give it a try and reach a verdict, but i firmly believe it should be at least ranked.
drifloon is so easy to play and easy to fit in many teams due to it being the only viable defog user in the metagame, and benefits more so thanks to pawniard falling off. it does an amazing job spreading status problems with will-o-wisp and thunder wave to keep stuff like non-tera fire crabrawler, pawniard and nymble in check, and it's one of the spinblockers that doesn't mind entering toedscool thanks to acrobatics. it can also choose to run destiny bond which ensures it takes at least one pokemon out per game, essentially doing a lot for its team, or endure to trigger oran berry in a pinch. acehunter's scarf set, while gimmicky, lets it also act as a good will-o-wisp absorber, being able to take out hisuian zorua and toedscool with flare boost tera flying tera blast, showing this pokemon can also have a lot of offensive potential in very specific teams that use fast paced pokemon.
look i know i should elaborate on this but isn't the high usage it has gotten in many events/ladder + the ability to be a huge nuisance to almost everything in the meta enough proof wattrel should rise?
hehe funny voltorb clicks electric stab, and it does so without little to no restraint. since it's very straightforward, it can use tera ice without many problems to kill non tera'd watt and toedscool, and it is the fastest pokemon in the meta. protect avoids nymble rkilling and it can also use taunt to shutdown any attempt to provide utility, but it's niche.
mudbray is one of the few pokemon that can deal with wattrel and flying-types consistently thanks to its bulk and rock tomb, allowing it to take two hurricanes from wattrel from full and check wingull and floon via tera steel. since it has an already huge attack stat even when it has bulk, it also manages to check and beat non sd pawniard, glimmet, and torb w/o tera, putting pressure on the opposing team.
magnemite enjoys diglett's departure, since it can now freely click electric stabs without getting punished for it. only thing that annoys it is wattrel, but tera steel analytic is able to net the 2hko after rocks on it, or it can also just run tera blast ice to nuke watt and toed out of the way. it is also good when paired with wattrel or voltorb since it makes good momentum cores able to chip down the enemy.
nymble, while it does not enjoy floon rising up even more, is still the best revenge killer in the metagame, and it is ensured to do its job solidly against weakened foes. if i am not wrong, it can choose to tera bug if its team doesn't require another tera user as a wincon in order to deal severe damage to resists like crab, watt and pawn.
shroodle is crazy fast, can absorb tspikes, has knock off + uturn to provide utility, and copycat lets it spam it more freely against any pokemon that is not a dark-type. diglett being gone means it can switch out more freely via parting shot, which also provides really good momentum for its team in setup spam teams, while encore helps a lot against pokemon like shellder, glimmet, etc
bramblin may not look solid but the ability to handle watt and gull's hurricane while being able to check mudbray and quaxly gives it enough credit to use it. it is a fast spinner able to set up spikes and generate a lot of momentum by forcing switches, but it can only be used in specific teams that require role compression to spinblock and remove hazards, in which floon does much better, but falls short against wattrel. this pokemon truly shines in webs where all the grounded 17 speed users and faster are not able to outspeed it, meaning it can also spinblock toed more consistently, but it can also see use outside of these teams. if spikes are not needed, it can also run shadow sneak despite it being pathetically weak to pick up floon, but power whip is strong enough to 2hko toed and take a chunk of health out from bulky threats. the biggest issue about this pokemon is losing to pawniard and hisuian zorua, but i don't think it should go overlooked.
i think it's crazy stunky has been neglected a rise because of diglett existing. its typing, speed and coverage lets it handle a huge plethora of metagame threats like gothita, hisuian zorua, drifloon and pawniard, while it can also absorb tspikes and win the 1v1 against shroodle no matter what. physical sets let it hit stuff like crabrawler with play rough and wattrel and toedscool hard while also being able to pick up weakened foes with sucker punch and set tspikes, while nasty plot sets manage to net the 2hko on mare with +2 dpulse. only drawback about np stunky is how crazy weak it is, but tera bug circumvents this issue by letting it be able to manage crabrawler and toedscool more comfortably, while not losing to mudbray either. previously, aftermath was run to kill rapid spinners when weakened, but since it became predictable, stench has become its best ability. while an added 10% flinch chance may not look like much, if you manage a flinch the tides can change very swiftly against an 18 speed setup sweeper like it is.
oh yeah uh tinkatink is a little too low here. pickpocket lets it become able to "absorb" knock off, while it can paralyze faster stuff and set stealth rock, and it's one of the few mons able to switch in comfortably into nymble. ice hammer lets it kill wattrel after rocks/knock off and toedscool on the switch, and it provides a lot of utility even under dire circumstances. it can also check floon comfortably
webs in general has improved with diglett being gone, increasing the amount of viable pokemon even further. i am going to only cite two of the pokemon i am most familiarized with.
sandile's typing and speed let it become one of the best webs abusers in the metagame thanks to the stab combo in crunch + eq, while it also runs protect to avoid getting revenge killed by nymble. it is also a decent stealth rock user, allowing it to force switches and put those up, or use tera blast flying/ice to beat toedscool and one to choose between crabrawler and wattrel. one issue it has is that it's not really strong initially, but it can become a huge problem if the opposing team gets chipped enough to enable a snowball sweep.
i have had a blast recently with cufant on webs since there is no diglett to annoy it. while its offensive capabilities are incredible on paper, with sheer force boosted iron head/play rough/rock slide damage to hit the majority of the meta for damage, its defensive qualities make it a really cool stealth rock setter able to find a niche in webs teams. the set i use goes like this:
Cufant @ Eviolite
Ability: Heavy Metal
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 20 HP / 116 Atk / 204 Def / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Brick Break / Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
Ability: Heavy Metal
Level: 5
Tera Type: Ghost
EVs: 20 HP / 116 Atk / 204 Def / 116 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Heavy Slam
- Brick Break / Earthquake
- Rock Tomb
- Stealth Rock
cufant makes use of heavy metal to ensure heavy slam is 120 BP against almost every pokemon in the metagame, meaning it can make use of stealth rock more often against non-resisting pokemon that might get 2hko'ed, while it can use brick break to beat pawniard, or earthquake to hit mareanie and tera electric/fire crab. rock tomb is a must to deal with flying-types and be able to threaten them out, as watt and gull get 2hko'ed, but cufant must be careful of gull's knock off. tera ghost lets cufant be able to become an emergency spinblocker and brute force its way against toedscool w/o tera, escape gothita trying to trap it with tera blast fighting, and avoid crabrawler's drain punch. if i had a replay of this pokemon successfully working, i'd link it but i have lost it. in any case, i'd suggest you give it a try and reach a verdict, but i firmly believe it should be at least ranked.
I'm not in the opinion that there are really S rank mons at this stage in the meta, though if there was one I think both Gothita and Toedscool could both live there. Toedscool is reliable at what it does, although it has a slight 4mss wanting to have spore but also wanting both stabs to hit both other toeds and steels/glim.
A -> A+: No Diglett means less competition and no counter trapping, and its scarf sets can use trick to disable things that Terastalize to beat it, such as Mareanie. Enables a lot of things, is decent speed control alongside something to beat Tera crab, and its Tera options both have Terablast utility and some defensive utility allowing it to trap more. It has the bulk to stomach a hit from Crabrawler and Mareanie if it wants to switch directly into them, but it can be abused after the trap a lot easier than Diglett could.
A+ -> A: Its still quite good at its job, but Gothita being common, flying types being common, and Mareanie being Tera Ghost to escape Gothita hurt it. Tera Fire is certainly more reliable at taking on Zorua-H, but since those often run Terablast, something such as Tera Dark or Tera Psychic to be a threat after Goth tries and fails to trap it may be more threatening, since Goth otherwise puts it at very low health.
A -> A+ or keep A: Drifloon can struggle into things such as Wattrel, but in my opinion it is the most effective removal and is the easiest to fit spinblocker that can actually do the job vs Toedscool once or twice. Its a reliable answer into many webs teams that can't stop defog, though Surskit has decent to good odds to kill it with Icy Wind into Hydro Pump depending on spreads.
A- -> A: Very good at switching into Toedscool and Drifloon, and clicking its stabs or pivot moves to make a lot of progress. Its weak to rocks and tends to get into Goth range fairly quickly, but outside of that it trades very well a lot of the time with a variety of move options and the option to go 15 speed bulky on some of them for slow U turn vs other Wattrel, or just a bulky twave mon. Those slow sets aren't free vs 17 speed threats (tho if unchipped you live +1 crab ice punch at 12 def) and Glimmet, and the U turn set is mostly just copium vs Tera Ground Goth and opposing Wattrel, but they're underrated.
A- -> A- or low A: Voltorb has gotten marginally better w/o Dig, though it doesn't like Goth much either. Its taunt sets can be used to 1v1 Wattrel, and it can switch into Drifloon short term too. Its good speed control, even if it still has most of the same problems it used to it def earns its A- rank a lot more than it did.
B+ -> A-: It doesn't have to compete with Diglett anymore, so scarf sets now have a decent niche even if it loathes Goth Tera sometimes, and doesn't like Toedscool + flying cores if it doesn't Tera. Offensive rocks sets are also pretty decent with Drifloon to spinblock for it, since its got good short term defensive utility and hits like a truck to force switches. Its not flawless but its competition got nuked so it should rise.
B- -> B+: W/o dig to trap it, its defensive typing is suddenly quite good, and its speed tier is also good too. Its calcs are absolutely awful offensively though, with special nasty plot sets it doesn't OHKO things at +2 like Toedscool, Scarf Mudbray, Wattrel, etc. At neutral its not much better, needing rocks chip to OHKO Zorua-H, and not forcing much else out outside of Gothita and Drifloon. Its not the pinnacle of defense either, so in spite of its now amazing type it can't setup safely outside of scarf locked Goth. Physical sets have more bite to them at neutral, but they still don't OHKO a lot and can sometimes not make much progress out of the switches it forces. Its typing and speed are actually really good though, but its a disappointment.
and should also rise but I've already posted about them. Tink is helped a lot by Dig ban, while Shroodle lost its best friend but also worst enemy.
A -> A+: No Diglett means less competition and no counter trapping, and its scarf sets can use trick to disable things that Terastalize to beat it, such as Mareanie. Enables a lot of things, is decent speed control alongside something to beat Tera crab, and its Tera options both have Terablast utility and some defensive utility allowing it to trap more. It has the bulk to stomach a hit from Crabrawler and Mareanie if it wants to switch directly into them, but it can be abused after the trap a lot easier than Diglett could. A+ -> A: Its still quite good at its job, but Gothita being common, flying types being common, and Mareanie being Tera Ghost to escape Gothita hurt it. Tera Fire is certainly more reliable at taking on Zorua-H, but since those often run Terablast, something such as Tera Dark or Tera Psychic to be a threat after Goth tries and fails to trap it may be more threatening, since Goth otherwise puts it at very low health. A -> A+ or keep A: Drifloon can struggle into things such as Wattrel, but in my opinion it is the most effective removal and is the easiest to fit spinblocker that can actually do the job vs Toedscool once or twice. Its a reliable answer into many webs teams that can't stop defog, though Surskit has decent to good odds to kill it with Icy Wind into Hydro Pump depending on spreads. A- -> A: Very good at switching into Toedscool and Drifloon, and clicking its stabs or pivot moves to make a lot of progress. Its weak to rocks and tends to get into Goth range fairly quickly, but outside of that it trades very well a lot of the time with a variety of move options and the option to go 15 speed bulky on some of them for slow U turn vs other Wattrel, or just a bulky twave mon. Those slow sets aren't free vs 17 speed threats (tho if unchipped you live +1 crab ice punch at 12 def) and Glimmet, and the U turn set is mostly just copium vs Tera Ground Goth and opposing Wattrel, but they're underrated. A- -> A- or low A: Voltorb has gotten marginally better w/o Dig, though it doesn't like Goth much either. Its taunt sets can be used to 1v1 Wattrel, and it can switch into Drifloon short term too. Its good speed control, even if it still has most of the same problems it used to it def earns its A- rank a lot more than it did. B+ -> A-: It doesn't have to compete with Diglett anymore, so scarf sets now have a decent niche even if it loathes Goth Tera sometimes, and doesn't like Toedscool + flying cores if it doesn't Tera. Offensive rocks sets are also pretty decent with Drifloon to spinblock for it, since its got good short term defensive utility and hits like a truck to force switches. Its not flawless but its competition got nuked so it should rise. B- -> B+: W/o dig to trap it, its defensive typing is suddenly quite good, and its speed tier is also good too. Its calcs are absolutely awful offensively though, with special nasty plot sets it doesn't OHKO things at +2 like Toedscool, Scarf Mudbray, Wattrel, etc. At neutral its not much better, needing rocks chip to OHKO Zorua-H, and not forcing much else out outside of Gothita and Drifloon. Its not the pinnacle of defense either, so in spite of its now amazing type it can't setup safely outside of scarf locked Goth. Physical sets have more bite to them at neutral, but they still don't OHKO a lot and can sometimes not make much progress out of the switches it forces. Its typing and speed are actually really good though, but its a disappointment. and should also rise but I've already posted about them. Tink is helped a lot by Dig ban, while Shroodle lost its best friend but also worst enemy.
Hey all, the VR has finally been updated to reflect the Diglett ban. I also do want to explain why we have opted not to include any pokemon in the current S tier.
Overall we feel that no current pokemon belongs in S tier due to there not being a mon that we believe is currently far above the others in terms of its viability, however if the meta continues to shift towards the direction it is going right now Gothita and Toedscool could possibly be moved up to S tier.
And thats it, have fun until we allegedly get our post home metagame in 5 days
Overall we feel that no current pokemon belongs in S tier due to there not being a mon that we believe is currently far above the others in terms of its viability, however if the meta continues to shift towards the direction it is going right now Gothita and Toedscool could possibly be moved up to S tier.
And thats it, have fun until we allegedly get our post home metagame in 5 days
I only have 1 nomination because everybody else seems to have got the main ones
to B+, possibly A-
Its such a good check to so many things with its stab combination, has an immunity to both thunder wave and will-o-wisp, neutrality to stealth rock despite being a fire type, and has 3 different sets you can run, being either a stealth rocker, a growth sweeper or a body press sweeper. Because of this flexibility, I believe it deserves to go up somewhat higher.
It pairs up well versus top threats, these being
Toedscool. You need the speed boost from flame charge to outspeed it, but simple flame charge has a lot of utility. Toed can;t switch in without risking a lot of damage and earth power can be easily played around.
Pawniard
Threatening STAB combo. Pawn can still hit you kind hard with dark moves, but switching into iron head is pretty easy.
Glimmet
Flame Charge into Earth Power is a guaranteed kill, and although your opponent gets up a layer T spikes, they need to tera to get out of a bad situation.
Voltorb Honestly this matchup is so heavily in Numel's favor its absurd. Electric immunity, ice neutrality, AND its stab combo threatens both pre and post-tera orb? Yes please. Bonus points for still doing this vs Orb-H when that comes out.
Wattrel Similar to Voltorb but its more about forcing teras and threatening it after a flame charge.
Drifloon Specially offensive has to use hex to beat over this, which is very sketchy when you can't status it. Physically offensive does fine, but numel can really reliably switch into it.
Mareanie Earth Power and forcing tera. Its value but also this is definitely one of the worst mus of the top tiers for it.
Magnemite
If you're using magnemite, numel switches in with borderline impunity. Its really hard when you resist one STAB and are immune to the other.
Nymble
If it ever claims a kill, you get a flame charge. Also it can't do much vs body press variants.
Tinkatink No para and it can't tera effectively to escape the STAB combo. Ice hammer doesn't help and while Knock is annnoying, its very clearly in Numel's favor.
Stunky You resist gunk shot and fire blast and threaten really well. not perfect because of dark coverage, but its quite solid.
I think that shows my point in some aspect, but also negatives are not to be understated
It dies to any water type because of its typing, its somewhat slow to start out and its dead weight vs webs.
With all that being said, I think it deserves to move up.
EDIT:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1870875499-3e6s45vmeieqf7d7ndhk2go7owtx7htpw
replay that features defensive numel
to B+, possibly A-
Its such a good check to so many things with its stab combination, has an immunity to both thunder wave and will-o-wisp, neutrality to stealth rock despite being a fire type, and has 3 different sets you can run, being either a stealth rocker, a growth sweeper or a body press sweeper. Because of this flexibility, I believe it deserves to go up somewhat higher.
It pairs up well versus top threats, these being
Toedscool.
You need the speed boost from flame charge to outspeed it, but simple flame charge has a lot of utility. Toed can;t switch in without risking a lot of damage and earth power can be easily played around.Pawniard
Threatening STAB combo. Pawn can still hit you kind hard with dark moves, but switching into iron head is pretty easy.Glimmet
Flame Charge into Earth Power is a guaranteed kill, and although your opponent gets up a layer T spikes, they need to tera to get out of a bad situation.Voltorb
Honestly this matchup is so heavily in Numel's favor its absurd. Electric immunity, ice neutrality, AND its stab combo threatens both pre and post-tera orb? Yes please. Bonus points for still doing this vs Orb-H when that comes out.Wattrel
Similar to Voltorb but its more about forcing teras and threatening it after a flame charge.Drifloon
Specially offensive has to use hex to beat over this, which is very sketchy when you can't status it. Physically offensive does fine, but numel can really reliably switch into it.Mareanie
Earth Power and forcing tera. Its value but also this is definitely one of the worst mus of the top tiers for it.Magnemite
If you're using magnemite, numel switches in with borderline impunity. Its really hard when you resist one STAB and are immune to the other.Nymble
If it ever claims a kill, you get a flame charge. Also it can't do much vs body press variants.Tinkatink
No para and it can't tera effectively to escape the STAB combo. Ice hammer doesn't help and while Knock is annnoying, its very clearly in Numel's favor.Stunky
You resist gunk shot and fire blast and threaten really well. not perfect because of dark coverage, but its quite solid.I think that shows my point in some aspect, but also negatives are not to be understated
It dies to any water type because of its typing, its somewhat slow to start out and its dead weight vs webs.
With all that being said, I think it deserves to move up.
EDIT:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9lc-1870875499-3e6s45vmeieqf7d7ndhk2go7owtx7htpw
replay that features defensive numel
Last edited: