STAB STABmons



Darkrai has been unbanned from STABmons!

With Darkrai's recent stint in OU, the STABmons council has unanimously decided to unban it to see it's effect on the metagame. We will be watching closely to see if it is in any way overwhelming but we doubt that due to the metagame having many good dark resists.

Tagging dhelmise for implementation, thanks as always!
Darkrai @ Life Orb
Ability: Bad Dreams
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Wicked Blow
- Wicked Torque
- Poison Jab
It's so over
 

Giagantic

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Pecharunt is now banned from STABmons!

With a near unanimous vote (besides me who was on the fence and voted do not ban as a result) Pecharunt is now banned from STABmons. Reasons? Simple, the above image really summarizes it but I will rephrase it, Rage Fist, a move that grows in power upon taking hits, a ghost type (really good typing, that happens to have good defenses and setup, plus recover, is broken as a result and thus jailed (banned)!

Tagging dhelmise for implementation.
 

G-Luke

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I don’t actually play the tier but i was a bit curious what does peacharunt do that skeledirge doesn’t besides being immune to poison abd gave 5 more attack?
Really bulky is the only thing i can think of, and thats honestly a very useful point for it. 5 extra attack, (speed advantage) and Tox immunity probably go along way as well
 
I don’t actually play the tier but i was a bit curious what does peacharunt do that skeledirge doesn’t besides being immune to poison abd gave 5 more attack?
Pecharunt @ Leftovers
Ability: Poison Puppeteer
Tera Type: Dark
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 SpD
Careful Nature
- Coil
- Rage Fist
- Recover
- Toxic/Barb Barrage/Baneful Bunker/Mortal Spin/Noxious Torque/Corrosive Gas

Can Skeledirge do a set like this one? It can't.
 
I don’t actually play the tier but i was a bit curious what does peacharunt do that skeledirge doesn’t besides being immune to poison abd gave 5 more attack?
Pecha has a good deal more physical bulk, no weakness to water (which I've heard is very strong in this meta), and immunity to poison which is pretty easily applied by pex. The poison immunity might be the most important part because it means you can switch into mortal spins and gain rage fist stacks without worrying about poison. Skeledirge has an immunity to burn which is nice but not as important as poison immunity, though it has unaware going for it which is pretty good
+ Skeledirge doesn't have coil like pecha
+ Pecha doesn't rely on heavy duty boots
 

Giagantic

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Late Winter-Early Spring Cursory STABmons Survey

Over a week has passed and thus this cursory survey has served it's purpose. I created with the intention of being simple gauging various topics with the mindset of creating a even bigger one not that far into the future. The next one will be more comprehensive and could very lead to a total meta shakeup with topics including moves, and most impact-fully Tera. Without further ado, the results!



Overall the metagame hasn't shifted much positively or negatively compared to the last poll a year ago, which is solid as far as I am concerned. There are a few votes on the lower spectrum which will hopefully be addressed over time as their concerns are fair.



Solid once again, but there is definite room for improvement as no one voted anything beyond an 8 and this may come down to a variety of factors that were brought up in the survey ranging from moves to tera, and the Pokemon themselves.



Divisive to say the least, not enough support for ban or suspect from my perspective but similarly not enough support for it sticking around to dismiss it. We may vote on it at some point but for now Wicked Blow will remain firmly on the radar to see how the metagame both adapts to it's presence or abuses it.



Echoing the previous entry, there is a bit more ambiguity and bias towards Ogerpon-Wellspring being broken, likely stemming the various attributes it brings to the table including it's passive damage boost due to the mask, defensive utility against fellow waters, difficulty walling due to crit moves and access to a wide range of moves due to it's shared access across forms. We will probably be voting on this in the future so watch out for any changes to the status quo.



This polling option was included simply due to the explosive increase in popularity seen in Greninja with the release of Wicked Blow from it's banned state and it was decisively voted as not broken.



From this result we can definitely see there is a lot of indecision or maybe better put, a lack of exploration in regards to Kyurem as many can recognize that in theory it is a monster both physically, specially and mixed but many have yet to see whether it is actually broken and thus the massive 50 undecided vote percentage. Hopefully come the next poll, if it isn't voted on by the council, we can get a more clear picture of whether the community considers it fine or busted.

Finally I asked the community what they consider to be problematic and came back with a variety of responses which are as follows:

Moves:
  • Wicked Blow
  • Astral Barrage
  • Rage Fist (not sure why considering Pecharunt has been yeeted)
  • Jet Punch
  • Torch Song
  • Beak Blast
  • Surging Strikes
  • Ceaseless Edge
Pokemon:
  • Gouging Fire
  • Meloetta
  • Thundurus-Therian
  • Jet Punch abusers
  • Kyurem
  • More generally, the sheer number of offensive threats to account for
Mechanics:
  • Tera
The survey as a whole was in line with my expectations. I will once again state my personal stance on move bans in a moment but first, I will say reiterate that the next survey that will be conducted after the incoming suspect (spoilers) will be a doozy and may very well shake the very foundations of the metagame. If say for example, Tera is shown enough support for a suspect and then banned we will basically be restarting the metagame from as close to ground zero as possible aside from obvious broken moves such as Shed Tail and similarly broken Pokemon (Chien-Pao).

Regarding Move Bans

As many are aware, I hold the opinion that moves must be explicitly broken to be banned or restricted as a first response. Calls to question the validity of a move must show that it is pushing other Pokemon into being bannable solely through it's inclusion and it must not be one or two cases but potentially many. Example Azumarill was banned due to a combination Jet Punch, Huge Power, setup through Swords Dance or Belly Drum, massive utility movepool (normal movepool specifically) Magical Torque, and more, not just Jet Punch alone. This being said, if the council was in enough support of a move suspect I would not get in the way of it. I only ask that people push for Pokemon bans unless it is clear as day that the move is breaking many Pokemon, not a few Pokemon with great qualities being bolstered through access to a new move. Compare a Weavile ban where Wicked Blow 100% played a major part in it being broken on top of it's speed and power, and Dragonite where it was in reality the simple fact of it gaining a reliable flying stab where previously it had access to aerial ace and fly (moves in quesiton were Dragon Ascent and arguably Brave Bird) that broke it not that the moves themselves are broken. Some will say this is inflexible, others will argue along different lines and I know not everyone will agree with my sentiments but regardless I just want to make STABmons a competitive, fun, and highly variable metagame which I think I've achieved to some success (not without misteps). If you ever want to speak to me about this topic and others feel free to hit me up on Smogon, PS, or Discord, all with the same name.


Finally, We will be suspect testing Gounging Fire shortly, I think we've moved past the point of quick bans which means we will be mostly resorting to suspects from this point onwards unless Tera is banned. The suspect will be up within a day at the latest which I will announce through the usual channels on discord and here.
 

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Giagantic

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Hosting STABmons Suspect Tours

The winners of these tours and follower up will gain Suspect Voting rights in the ongoing Gouging Fire Suspect.

Play on the account you are most associated with on Smogon and PS.

Tours will happen twice each week.

Week 1
First Tour: Friday 22nd 10:00 AM GMT-4

Second Tour: Sunday 24th 3:00 PM GMT -4 (Edit: Since I was indisposed and no one hosted it in my place I will be hosting it today same time)

Week 2
Third Tour: Friday 29th 6:00 PM GMT -4

Fourth Tour: Saturday 30th 10:00 PM GMT -4
 
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Giagantic

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A week has passed and the second survey garnered 26 responses, as such let's unveil the results!



A clear division in mentality, as has been the case all generation in regards to Tera. What is more telling is the second answer's results in regards to Tera.




Though sentiments were mixed between whether Tera is healthy or not in STABmons, over 60% have shown support for a re-suspect. I think this really highlights the general confusion people feel in regards to Tera as it has genuine good qualities mixed in with less positive aspects. Defensively Tera is a great addition and this defensive switching is great not just as a purely defensive measure but also as a offensive measure such as letting a defensive Landorus-therian tank a Boomburst with Tera Steel from a Meloetta and hitting it hard with either STAB, in this example it isn't just defensive but offensive, however it is restricted to type switching. Why this is a positive quality is that it is a measure of skillful application when you Tera defensive and how you form your team around all your Teras to address weaknesses. The problem from my perspective is when discussing the additional power granted by Tera; gaining stab effectively twice is problematic in a metagame where the general power level is much higher as all Pokemon innately have access to their typings best moves, something that normally restricts Pokemon, when combined with Tera this become harder to deal with to such a degree that even resists can be toppled with Tera. Examples of this are numerous over the course of this generation but I think one of the best examples was Dragonite being capable of busting through Pokemon such as Corviknight with relatively little chip and capable of 2hko'ing defensive Ting Lu without a defensive Tera that resists it at minimum.

The answer to this survey will lead to an action taking place on Tera which will be discussed after the rest of the survey so keep reading.




To no ones surprise Latios is firmly negative, some will claim it is due to Lumina Crash, however, that move is rarely ever used in actuality due to the presence of various Dark and Steel types, on top of Covert Cloak which is a key element to gen 9 STABmons. The reality is that Dragon Energy and Clanging Scales on top of Tera Dragon let Latios break even resists and in reality it usually required Tera Fairy or a native Fairy type to answer it. The lack of good and commonly played Fairy types beyond Iron Valiant is a big problem, but the crux is that Tera damage amplification plus the raw damage of Dragon Energny, on top of Choice Specs and 130 SPA is quite problematic. Even in the case of Iron Valiant you'd risk switching into Psychic coverage so in reality there are even fewer answers to Latios. So strong is that it can nearly 2hko Blissey, 252 SpA Choice Specs Tera Dragon Latios Dragon Energy (150 BP) vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 286-338 (43.8 - 51.8%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO.

Action will be taken on it at the end of this post.




Kyurem was survey'd last time as well and it is clear why, the Pokemon has similar qualities to Baxcalibur whilst being weaker physical (not saying much) and fully capable of going mixed, fully special or physical. Ice and Dragon Type are naturally great partners offensively and have some great moves gained through STABmons, and in addition Kyurem has Earth Power to bypass problematic types in general such as Steel. Whilst no action will be taken, this generally middle of the road to negative survey result will keep it on the radar, depending on the results of what is to come later, it may recieve a quick ban or suspect of its own.




For a Pokemon that was once said to be broken by many, the survey turned out a generally middle of the road / positive leaning result for Volcanion and this has a lot to do with the additions brought with DLC 1 and DLC 2 such as more Dragon types to better answer it with Latios and Latias both proving hard match ups for the common Water Shuriken, Torch Song, Steam Eruption, and Earth Power set. The meta is also no longer new to the idea of Water Shuriken sweepers and is generally well preped for it.

No action will be taken on Volcanion.




Volcarona being another key abuser of Torch Song recieved mixed results but nothing all the indicative of necessary action taken against it despite being a potent sweeper through its native access to Quiver Dance on top of the great coverage options it has. Tera also happens to syngergize extremely well with its most common set being a Substitute Tera Grass set that aims to abuse common answers to it.

No action will be taken versus it.



This survey result was more of a litmus test to see how people saw Ting Lu in general and tangentially how people saw its signature move in STABmons, Ceaseless Edge. The result was pretty much clear as day, the Pokemon is fine.




Divided, and understandably so, since this question really aims at me squarely I will speak as myself. I believe the best direction for STABmons is one that balances the various qualities of a Pokemon and a move together rather then separate its new additions through STABmons mechanics. Effectively this means that Torch Song on a Pokemon like Volcanion is judged as a whole, not separate and if it is supported as broken deciding whether it is the move vastly elevating it or a combination of factors. I know not everyone will agree with it and I have no delusions of everyone going to both among players and council.




Beak Blast recieved a extreme amount of mixed results, not entirely sure why either. I myself view it as a healthy addition to the metagame that helps balance offensive contact moves like Dragon's Ascent from being overbearing and is solely the responsibility of the team builder and player if they get caught by it. In addition there are a great number of non-contact moves some of which are underexplored and great in the metagame such as the Torque moves beyond Magical Torque all being non-contact and generally being good additions to the repertoire of your team if you are scared of Beak Blast. Even more to the point, there are two items that totally negate Beak Blast's effect.

As for Ceaseless Edge, it has not shown to be problematic as it is limited to a few pokemon (Ting Lu and Tyranitar namely) meaning it isn't overtly present when most offensive Pokemon would rather run Wicked Blow or something else. The numerous ways of clearing hazards in STABmons also doesn't help the case against Ceaseless Edge.

No action on either.



Torch Song has recieved some support for some sort of action from prominent players but the survey result indicate that there isn't a clear answer, even more to the point two of its major abusers (aside from one other) did not recieve enough support for action either, implying that it really isn't a problematic move on the mons currently.

Surging Strikes over a year ago was one of the biggest points of contention and now it is fairly obvious that in general there is nothing to clamour about, the nerf to rain, and the numerous ways to inflict burns (Beak Blast / Burning Bulwark) or chip (Rocky Helmet) have really stopped it in its tracks.

No action on either.



Yes it is 1 out of 5 as that is the default... regardless the middle of the road results seem to imply that it isn't seen entirely as healthy or unhealthy, the biggest abusers are also not seen all that much in play these days due to various flaws and metagame specific answers.

Astral Barrage was seen as generally healthy, though I think that could've not been the case had we recieved more offensive ghosts, however, as long as all we really got are Gholdengo and Gengar, that the move is going to remain unproblematic especially with metagame specific elements such as Meloetta and Ting Lu being popular.

No action on either.



Generally negative as a whole, Water Shuriken is one of the moves chiefly responsible for the banning of Pokemon in Manaphy and its abusers are quite popular in Rotom-Wash and Volcanion.

There has been a vote on it.



Finally, Wicked Blow was unbanned in January and got two Pokemon banned, and many have problems with how potent it is on many dark types. Specifcally many have issues with how it seemingly invalidates defensive play on a typing that is extremely hard to answer unlike say Surging Strikes or Flower Trick. Chief abusers of it include Greninja, Meowscarada, but aren't limited to them with even Dragon Dance Tyranitar seeing some effective play.

Action will be taken on it.

Now for the time we blow your mind with what was voted on and the results!



As a result, Latios and Wicked Blow are banned from STABmons, Weavile and Kingambit are free again and the rest remain untouched.



But most importantly, TERA will be recieving a re-suspect that will be up by Sunday!


Pinging dhelmise for implementation, thanks as always!
 
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MANNAT

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Why are th Torque moves allowed in this? Not only do they have ridiculous secondary effects for having no drawbacks and high base power, but they also aren’t obtainable in game at all. They’re solely seen on a mini boss fight and the player can never obtain the moves, so obviously being able to obtain them in STAB is an oversight.
 

Giagantic

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Why are th Torque moves allowed in this? Not only do they have ridiculous secondary effects for having no drawbacks and high base power, but they also aren’t obtainable in game at all. They’re solely seen on a mini boss fight and the player can never obtain the moves, so obviously being able to obtain them in STAB is an oversight.
This is how it works in many OM's because it is based on the idea of what moves are usable through the code rather then usable strictly in-game. All the torque moves are usable moves that can be hacked in and used in battle without issue, Balanced Hackmons operates in a similar way for example. In contrast, moves that can't be used through simple hacking such as those that aren't in the code or not programmed to work or have been dexited are not usable in STABmons such as Spectral Thief or all the Let's Go Pikachu/Eevee moves.

No comment on the balance of the moves (I lied they are fine)
 

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