Sure, hit me.I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?
I honestly like to hear it. I always thought it was quite ridiculous how rock could deal with water without crad.I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?
I think Specs Nihilego? But then Swampert…I honestly like to hear it. I always thought it was quite ridiculous how rock could deal with water without crad.
tbh, you need a rock type with grass coverage that is strong: ie power whip, giga drain, energy ball, leaf blade, grass knot. Nihilego is the only rock type with good spa and grass coverage(others are shit like kabutops with giga drain :| so it ain't gonna work) aside from crad of course. You also need specs to knock out swampert or you can meteor beam. So if you remove crad, nihi is the only option and it's shaky at bestI think Specs Nihilego? But then Swampert…
Way back when, Curse Cradily was an interesting prospect. Here's a possible set:I'm sick of people unironically using Cradily in mono rock thinking it's a good pokemon. Would you guys be interested in an overly detailed and angry rant about Cradily in mono rock and why no one should ever use it?
MPL has concluded, are we going to suspect Moltres-Galar? I doubt opinions have changed much since the poll.The results of the survey that started on April 9th and was concluded recently can be found below.
- Qualified Voters
- Qualified Voters
Key statistics -
Regarding potential action on Moltres-Galar, the survey results were not conclusive enough for immediate action to be taken in the build-up to MPL. However, the case for a suspect will be considered after MPL concludes. Thanks to everyone who responded for your insight.
- 63.4% of all respondents consider the metagame relatively enjoyable. (7-10 on a scale of 1-10)
- 62.9% of all respondents consider the metagame relatively competitive. (7-10 on a scale of 1-10)
- 54.9% of all respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 65.9% of qualified respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 32.3% of all respondents consider Kyurem as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 34.1% of qualified respondents consider Kyurem as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 18.3% of all respondents consider Aegislash as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 19.3% of all respondents consider Tapu Lele as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
- 24.7% of all respondents consider Icy Rock as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
favoring a type would go against mono tiering policy (suspecting to make fighting better) and its also defintely not a main focus of what the tier needs rn anyway. but i would also like to see another community survey come out to gauge community interest on a suspect or what they think might be unbalanced. i think ss right now is like balanced and doesnt need much changing but i think moltres galar deserves a suspect despite that. kyurem on the other hand rly isnt that bad and i wouldnt say its broken compared to if i was asked like during mpl; the meta has adapted to it. but yass community survey would be nice rn especially since the gen is closing out soon and i doubt ppl will wanna revisit ss/it would be very slow if we did when we get a brand new toy in the new gen.MPL has concluded, are we going to suspect Moltres-Galar? I doubt opinions have changed much since the poll.
Incidentally, can we also suspect Zamazenta-hero? Fighting is basically unplayable at the moment, and I think freeing Zamazenta-Hero would help change that while not being overpowered given Zamazenta's lack of secondary STAB and good boosting moves. I have a hard time believing Zamazenta-H would be broken in a tier where it's locked to the worst type; in all honestly it would probably be worse than existing free Ubers (Kyurem, Spectier, Cinderace)
I'm not going to do an other post since my arguments will be the same, but ye truly I don't get what we are still waiting. As a small reminder, I do not think Goltres should be suspected only because it's a strong pokemon, but also (and maybe mostly) because of the high part of rng/uncertainty it brings to the game. While I feel like most of the community agrees for at least a suspect, there are also a lot of people who think Goltres should not be suspected now because they think a Kyurem suspect urges more (what also could make sense but it's not my point here) and they know we're never getting both.The results of the survey that started on April 9th and was concluded recently can be found below.
- Qualified Voters
- 65.9% of qualified respondents consider Moltres-Galar as broken. (4-5 on a scale of 1-5)
I disagree strongly with a Zamazenta suspect. With Zamazenta, Fighting can essentially pick a random type that it 6-0s because it can run a lot of sets when it's not confined to an item. It has 130 Attack, great bulk, and a decent amount of coverage especially for Monotype to be able to split apart teams effectively. Wild Charge, Crunch, Play Rough, Ice Fang... its movepool is good enough to take on a variety of top types. Its speed tier is also amazing, it can outspeed a bunch of things naturally, and it can outspeed Regieleki with a Choice Scarf. It does not put Fighting near anywhere the top types, yet it would still be broken in Monotype because of the power it gives to Fighting specifically as glue alongside how the rest of the metagame struggles to prepare for it; it would be very unhealthy. Alongside this, there are a lot of other Pokemon you could argue for a suspect, while the urge to bring Zamazenta into the tier is non-existent.Incidentally, can we also suspect Zamazenta-hero? Fighting is basically unplayable at the moment, and I think freeing Zamazenta-Hero would help change that while not being overpowered given Zamazenta's lack of secondary STAB and good boosting moves. I have a hard time believing Zamazenta-H would be broken in a tier where it's locked to the worst type; in all honestly it would probably be worse than existing free Ubers (Kyurem, Spectier, Cinderace)
There is still an abundance of opinions in the Monotype room in regards to Kyurem, both advocating for and against a suspect test. However, I fail to see any arguments that, when broken down, don't originate in an idea that is close to, if not already, violating the tiering policy. A lot of the reasoning seems to stem from complaints about Kyurem catching or fishing for freezes, which admittedly does impact some games.I've been healed of my Zapdos-Syndrome. I do not think either Kyurem or Galarian Moltres are broken.
Probability in Tiering
I want to address people adding the potential freeze and flinch from Kyurem and Galarian Moltres respectively as part of a reason to take ban action. It's part of the tiering policy rule #4 that we accept that probability management is part of the game we play. Are we going to ban Choice Band Mamoswine because it flinched your Ice neutrality, Celesteela in Monotype Ribbon Finals? I believe taking action on uncompetitive factors like Acupressure, Quick Claw, and evasion over secondary effects that many Pokemon have is a much wiser choice.
Galarian Moltres
Galarian Moltres runs a few sets in Monotype like Double Dance, ChestoResto + Nasty Plot, Substitute + Nasty Plot, Stallbreaker (Taunt), and even RestTalk. Looking over all the types, Galarian Moltres has multiple checks. There are some Pokemon that Galarian Moltres can get some free switch-ins to like Slowbro, Latias (Maybe stop using Stored Power Latias on Psychic and you can win against a Dark-type lol), and Ferrothorn but overall I don't think this Pokemon is causing the metagame to run unviables like Assault Vest Mawile to check its STABs.
Dark: Tyranitar / Weavile / Grimmsnarl / Bisharp
Dragon: Kyurem / Hydreigon (Fiery Wrath exclusive sets) / Choice Scarf Dragapult
Fairy / Electric / Ice: Shouldn't have issues.
Fire: Incineroar / Cinderace in Sun / Getting +2 Spa +2 Spe is hard overall considering how offensive/direct Fire is
Ghost: Mimikyu / Hyper Beam Spectrier / (Difficult MU in general)
Grass: Cradily / Whimsicott + Virizion + Bulu (Fiery Wrath exclusive)
Ground: Roar Hippowdon & Clear Smog Gastrodon makes it have low setup opportunities + Offensive Pokemon
Normal: Chansey / Snorlax
Poison: Nihilego (Nihilego + Core alone beats Ice, Flying, Fire, and Bug pretty well), Galarian Weezing+WW Drapion (Fiery Wrath exclusive) / Galarian Slowking to an extent
Psychic: Hatterne / Tapu Lele / Alakazam / Galarian Slowking to an extent
Steel: Heatran / AV Melmetal / Bisharp / Celesteela
Water: Tapu Fini / Swift Swim Water / Urshifu+Crawdaunt (Fiery Wrath exclusive) / Phaze Swampert
Kyurem
Overall, I believe Kyurem is on two weird types; Dragon having little-to-no defensive core and Ice relying on Cloyster for momentum and less commonly, Piloswine for a defensive core. I have to admit that Water and Ground don't have a switch-in to a Choice Specs Kyurem every single turn, however, I believe that running Choice Specs has drawbacks and due to the team structures, Kyurem is on, makes it more manageable than it seems.
"Kyurem vs Water"
I do believe that types like Water and Ground have ways of beating the Ice matchup offensively. Water can run offensive options like Kingdra, Cloyster, and Urshifu+Tapu Fini for Dragon and Cloyster, Urshifu-R, and Volcanion for Ice. By running Choice Specs Kyurem on Ice you're giving up both HDB and Chople Berry as options making you more prone to both entry hazards and Urshifu-R, respectively. Personally, I've tried Choice Specs Kyurem and had to use Froslass as a soft check just to not be CC spammed but I was pretty much forced out by Urshifu-R multiple turns. Slowking on the other hand can always be switched into the Substitute Kyurem and pressure both Ice and Dragon with Urshifu-S's Close Combat + Future Sight. Walrein has been tested for Kyurem but I only see that as a decent option for the Dragon matchup. The Roar + Rest/Protect set doesn't seem to do much if you're phazing threats like Arctozolt and SD Weavile. Like if you phaze in an Arctozolt with Hail up, do you sack your Walrein so it doesn't Substitute, or do you "switch out" on a potential Substitute and save it for "checking" Kyurem later. Choice Specs Draco Meteor hits Walrein pretty hard as well.
"Kyurem vs Ground"
Nothing switches into Choice Specs Kyurem unless you're running Assault Vest Mamoswine to not have one of your Pokemon completely sacked.
Mamoswine is a soft check to SubRoost Kyurem thanks to Thick Fat and honestly, Kyurem isn't getting Substitute up very freely unless it's in front of a Gastrodon. Ground can put up a great matchup against Dragon with Excadrill, Mamoswine, and Landorus-T. Dragon lacks a defensive core as mentioned before and from a Sand Rush POV, Choice Band Excadrill makes major progress and Mamoswine cleans with Ice Shard. Sandless is the same way with Mamoswine + really any Choice Scarfer (Landorus-T/Excadrill/Garchomp). 252 SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Earth Power vs. 0 HP / 252 SpD Excadrill: 304-358 (84.2 - 99.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO Excadrill eats a Choice Specs Earth Power from a Kyurem! Iron Head does enough damage where Stealth Rocks KOes Kyurem aswell. (Keep note that Dragon also has very poor hazard control).
Ground vs Ice is quite the matchup, and it's like Flying vs Ice honestly. It's a hard matchup overall and Kyurem is not the main threat. You have a Weavile that Knocks Off your neutrality, Arctozolt, Kyurem, Alolan Ninetales, and more.
"Kyurem vs Flying"
Arctozolt + Kyurem + Weavile + Galarian Darmanitan. Is this really a Kyurem-based issue or is this a general hard matchup in Monotype. If you aren't using Skarmory to absorb Knock Offs + Celesteela to check Kyurem, respectively, that matchup seems hella out the window. Celesteela just gets Knock'd by Weavile, the Ice user goes into Cloyster, Clicks Teleport, then goes into Arctozolt or Weavile again.
Dragon overall hates Celesteela tremendously and if you play Galarian Moltres + Celesteela + Scarf right you can win.
tldr: Flinch/Freeze goes against tiering policy, Galarian Moltres is balanced, Water & Ground can beat Ice & Dragon, Flying vs Ice is a Monotype moment without Skarmory.
Let's actually analyze these games.
going to use this post to tackle two pokemon i keep hearing people bring up. many people believe kyurem and galarian moltres were a problem before mpl started, as seen through the survey. it was decided that since mpl was just around the corner at least galarian moltres would be looked at it to see if it was a problem, for the sake of this post lets include kyurem here as well. during mpl its true ice, dragon, flying, and dark received a fair bit of usage. however as seen by mpl none of them were overwhelming presences in the metagame as 3/4 types they can be used on didn't even win over 50% of the time, while Dark did it only had a 56% percent rate. I think this pretty clearly shows at least at a high level that both kyurem and galarian moltres are not broken and the metagame has in some shape adapted to them. this is why i also don't necessarily see the value in the centralization argument, since I believe there will always be Pokemon that have a strong affect on the metagame. I feel like every generation has had a few outliers that always have hung on the edge, unless they are directly creating and unbalanced/unhealthy metagame there is no reason to take action against them. i feel like eien summed it up nicely for sm and that the same type of idea carries into ss with these two pokemon.Kyurem and Moltres-G have long been some of the strongest and most discussed pokemon in the SS meta, both considered heavily for suspects at earlier points. As the meta has progressed Goltres has become far less of a potent threat with the meta adapting to it quite well, even to the point where many flying teams no longer utilize it. In fact in the earlier stage of post-DLC I was convinced Goltres was too strong for the meta while Kyurem was relatively healthy, but as the meta's progressed my opinions have flipped.
Kyurem's very solid hp sitting at 125 when combined with decent defensive and speed stats, along with heavy duty boots, allow it to utilize pressure extremely well with the most common sub roost set. Played properly it can single-handedly destroy a significant amount of the meta. Going through some matchups concerning higher-tier types:
Electric: Kyurem subsets on Rotom-W and can reset subs on volts from regi/koko ect and keep its hp up with roost while ep/freeze dry allow it to hit the entire type super-effectively.
Flying: The most commonly used check to Kyurem on flying is Celesteela, however unless running dual steel stab you will run out of heavy slams quickly and if you mispredict 1-2 leeches Kyurem will kill Cele while having a sub up for whatever comes in next. It outspeeds mostly the whole type except for Tornadus-T(which it Beats 1 on 1 if Torn isn't already set)/Scarf Zap and has little trouble going through Flying. The only real checks are Scarf G-Zap and Corvinkight. Concerning the Ice matchup having a screen up allows it to become far easier for Kyurem to get in a position where it can maintain subs and beat G-Zap and concerning the Dragon there are many options to take care of both.
Ground: Ground can attempt to offensively pressure Kyurem with Exca/Band Mamoswine but in my experience once you get Kyurem in against a Gastro it's subbing and getting 2-3 kills. Scarf adamant Excadrill fails to OHKO Kyurem with Iron Head and Assault Vest Mamo is 1v1'd running out of Crash/EQ before it can do real damage.
Poison: The standard regen core on poison is quite easy to break with Kyurem. Gloking can help but it will run out of sludges quickly as Kyurem pressure stalls and you have 5 more mons to deal w fsight attempting to break the sub. The only real check it has is Nihilego which can take a single Earth Power at most or spam switching regenerator Pokemon around to try and pp stall it.
Steel: The best example for just how ridiculous this Pokemon can be. Kyurem can subset on Ferrothorn, 1 on 1 Aegislash, EP Heatran, do the aforementioned pressure stall against Cele, and kill a chipped Exca behind sub/if Kyurem is at full. In general once a Steel team is chipped(specifically Melm/Corv) Kyurem can 1 on 1 the rest of the team late game. That said, I'm not saying the ice/steel matchup is ice favored as smart players will ensure to keep their Melm out of EP range or their Corv around, but a couple misplays and a properly set up Kyurem can win. The Dragon m/u is entirely different of course.
Water: Little to say here, FD is insane and subbing on water isn't hard. Options to pressure with scarf shifu/skewda/scarf fini and light screen slowking is a soft check, but it's not hard to play around those things, especially as Skewda/Shifu are not able to take a FD(81% chance to ohko shifu from full) and pivoting to break the sub can just be an opportunity to resub and stall out rain turns so Skewda flip doesn't break.
Contrary to what it may seem, I don't think Kyurem is "broken" as defined in tiering policy; It has checks/opportunities to pressure on all of the types I just listed(maybe not electric), and the average player will struggle to pull off the right game setup to pull off a Kyurem "sweep." However most any "above average" player knows exactly how to play it into the perfect position to either pull off a "sweep" or get multiple kills in these m/us so they can win the game relatively easily in another way. It can be a hard Pokemon to play perfectly, but it's been in the meta for quite some time, and experienced players can use it to win with little skill required. I didn't follow MPL super closely and I can't seem to find the usage statistics, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Kyurem's performance, among these top players, was extremely good and skewed compared to other Pokemon.
Quick thoughts on freezes as people always bring them up when discussing Kyurem. Tiering policy doesn't concern itself with RNG and that's perfectly understandable, and something like Goltres' flinch chance with Fiery Wrath was not near as talked about in that discussion as Freezes with Kyurem are. The reason I think this is quite simple, Kyurem is the only viable Pokemon I can think of that has access to a freeze status move, that is also bulky enough to be able to throw out 10-20 of them per game. Ex: Ninetails has freeze dry, but it's not throwing out more than like 3-5 per game because it's frail and has no recovery. Overall, this is not an argument to ban Kyurem and I have never considered it one, but there is a reason why people always bring it up.
Final Thoughts: Kyurem is nowhere near the most unhealthy pokemon/banned element that has been in the mono meta over the years, but an experienced player knows how to use it in a way that requires little skill to win a myriad of matchups. The meta has failed to adapt to it like it has to Goltres with many checks being created over time, but none of them sticking because they generally are just a Kyurem fish(like Walrein) that fail to do much else of use or they are unable to deal with pressure stall(like Celesteela). I believe Kyurem has been over-centralizing in higher tier play for quite some time and it warrants a suspect test.
I completely agree with Eien's point, however throughout the post-DLC generation I haven't seen anything in the meta except for one specific Pokemon, being Kyurem, that has continued to be (in my opinion) unhealthy over many months of meta progression. To follow up on that as it is kind of contradictory my earlier point, I did think Kyurem was perfectly fine months ago, but I think that was more due to my higher focus on Goltres, less personal experience, and people not knowing how to use it as well. Now if we were to ban Kyurem it could cause too much of a meta shift and lead to more problems than it solves, but I think it is quite difficult to determine that through only talking about it. I'm on the fence about banning it for this reason, but having a suspect with Kyurem taken off the ladder would allow us to see how the meta functions without it, and if it causes too much of a shift that removing it unbalances the meta more strongly, then at least we would know.going to use this post to tackle two pokemon i keep hearing people bring up. many people believe kyurem and galarian moltres were a problem before mpl started, as seen through the survey. it was decided that since mpl was just around the corner at least galarian moltres would be looked at it to see if it was a problem, for the sake of this post lets include kyurem here as well. during mpl its true ice, dragon, flying, and dark received a fair bit of usage. however as seen by mpl none of them were overwhelming presences in the metagame as 3/4 types they can be used on didn't even win over 50% of the time, while Dark did it only had a 56% percent rate. I think this pretty clearly shows at least at a high level that both kyurem and galarian moltres are not broken and the metagame has in some shape adapted to them. this is why i also don't necessarily see the value in the centralization argument, since I believe there will always be Pokemon that have a strong affect on the metagame. I feel like every generation has had a few outliers that always have hung on the edge, unless they are directly creating and unbalanced/unhealthy metagame there is no reason to take action against them. i feel like eien summed it up nicely for sm and that the same type of idea carries into ss with these two pokemon.
personally, I never really believed galarian moltres or kyurem were necessarily broken/unhealthy, since they both have quite a few relevant and strong checks in the metagame and no type outright just loses to them. i think the metagame is fine with these two at the moment.
Definitely, Fighting just gets blanked by every great type.I'd definitely swap fighting and normal. Normal still isn't good but fighting is way way worse than it looks. There really isn't anything about mono fighting you haven't mentioned already, I just think it's flaws are way too drastic compared to it's tiny speck of a niche to ever be worth using.