Metagame SS Monotype Metagame Discussion [Crown Tundra]

[Fraolain]

OK I'm gonna give the hot take of the century and I'm somewhat new to monotype so take this with a grain of salt, BUT, I do not think the issue is goltres. I think the issue is goltres+screens. Every goltres sweep I have pulled off so far is due to berserk plays behind screens and every time it was shut down by an offensive mon was via a crit or parahax. I think the issue is inherent to monodark though, since from what I can see a LOT of mono dark teams run screens. I don't really think screens should be suspected as, yeah goltres is the issue. While I am personally against a goltres band I just wanna put this out for anyone who is good enough to vote to take into consideration, being the screens+gotlres combo.

Hmmm, you kind of just said that goltres was and wasn't the issue in 1 post, but anyway when a mon is being broken by abusing strong support, the issue is clearly not the supports.
If you ban the sweeper then it dissapear and the issue is solved, only leading to screens being a bit less viable.
But, if you ban the support, you make the sweeper way less stronger, and at the same time you nerf a plethora of other mons who were already fine to handle. So if banning the support is way less effective than banning the problematic mon, then it makes very little sense to think about it as a larger issue.



With this being said, after a looong time since I made my original post about gtres, I've changed my mind, and I do not think gtres is as threatening and problematic as it was 7 months ago.

Everyone has kind of learned how to deal with it, it's still an excellent mon, and just like everyone i still hate fiery wrath (hello council, you've banned bright powder, why not adding a flinch clause too ???) but i'm actually against the ban now. It helps a shit ton mainly in the psychic and ghost matchup, but like, so does BU lando vs steel/elec/poison ? Same with zap-g with normal/rock/ice, and many more flying mons.



I think each type has a very viable way of checking moltres, and anyway if it ever got banned every chad mono player would start playing weakness policy nasty plot weak armor mandibuzz and you'd all cry wanting your no-coverage roostless mon back

 

[Dragapult]

OK I'm gonna give the hot take of the century and I'm somewhat new to monotype so take this with a grain of salt, BUT, I do not think the issue is goltres. I think the issue is goltres+screens. Every goltres sweep I have pulled off so far is due to berserk plays behind screens and every time it was shut down by an offensive mon was via a crit or parahax. I think the issue is inherent to monodark though, since from what I can see a LOT of mono dark teams run screens. I don't really think screens should be suspected as, yeah goltres is the issue. While I am personally against a goltres band I just wanna put this out for anyone who is good enough to vote to take into consideration, being the screens+gotlres combo.

The vast majority of ban sentiment directed towards Moltres-G is, as it was in National Dex Monotype, is due to Moltres-G on Flying, not Dark. The main reason for this, of course, is because Flying is the vastly better type. Need to clear out Fairies? Lando + Steela. Elecs? Lando + Thundy-T (or even Nite.) Moltres-G is a relatively unpredictable mon on a type swarming with them, and I think it simply draws a lot of attention from being the one to benefit most offensively from all that support rather than it being uniquely broken. Hazards (e.g. Rocks, Webs) don't matter because of HDB + Flying's immunity to the other hazards (its teammates on Flying do not care about this; they do on Dark.)

semi-tl;dr: I'm not quite on the fence here but I do understand why there are players who don't like the mon. It is great on both types but it on Flying is the more lethal mon despite Dark having screens. I think the meta is in a pretty boring but stable place right now with a respectable power level and Moltres-G, Kyurem, and Melmetal (lol) being the complaint magnets right now demonstrates that.

 

[ProNooob]

Hmmm, you kind of just said that goltres was and wasn't the issue in 1 post, but anyway when a mon is being broken by abusing strong support, the issue is clearly not the supports.
If you ban the sweeper then it dissapear and the issue is solved, only leading to screens being a bit less viable.
But, if you ban the support, you make the sweeper way less stronger, and at the same time you nerf a plethora of other mons who were already fine to handle. So if banning the support is way less effective than banning the problematic mon, then it makes very little sense to think about it as a larger issue.



With this being said, after a looong time since I made my original post about gtres, I've changed my mind, and I do not think gtres is as threatening and problematic as it was 7 months ago.

Everyone has kind of learned how to deal with it, it's still an excellent mon, and just like everyone i still hate fiery wrath (hello council, you've banned bright powder, why not adding a flinch clause too ???) but i'm actually against the ban now. It helps a shit ton mainly in the psychic and ghost matchup, but like, so does BU lando vs steel/elec/poison ? Same with zap-g with normal/rock/ice, and many more flying mons.



I think each type has a very viable way of checking moltres, and anyway if it ever got banned every chad mono player would start playing weakness policy nasty plot weak armor mandibuzz and you'd all cry wanting your no-coverage roostless mon back

My point was a bit poorly made, but it was to not ban goltres since without screens it is threatening but not impossible to check

 

[wkxkevin]

My point was a bit poorly made, but it was to not ban goltres since without screens it is threatening but not impossible to check

I disagree with this assessment. Goltres is already pretty suspect worthy before screens, with screens it becomes absurd. 90/90/100 bulk is completely broken. For example, 252 SpA Choice Specs Jirachi Thunder vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Moltres-Galar: 248-292 (77.2 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The thing is that double dance set can set up according to situation nasty plot on defensive teams and agility on offensive teams. It will then live at low health, get special attack boost from beserk and wall break. The problem is not the sweeping. It's more that by the time a team stops goltres, goltres' teammates can just finish the job.

 

[risinguptothetop]

Hi, wanted to share a team that's very close to my heart, Arctozolt Ice is great in the metagame right now as an Anti Meta pick for Water and Flying.
Peaked at 1728 with this team. (I might post this as a sample suggestion too)


Pokepaste: Me And My Homies Love Antarctica :) (pokepast.es)

Starting off with the queen Alolan Ninetales, the evs are for koing Urshifu Rapid Strike after hail, because even with max Special Atk Ninetales still has to risk a roll so it's better to get some additional bulk. Encore helps shut down setup sweepers and Icy Rock because we value hail turns more than veil turns because of Arctozolt.
Next, we have **the** demon himself, Arctozolt. Arctozolt is such an amazing breaker and helps ice out in tons of MUs including Water, Flying (both extremely common in the metagame) and breaking Poison after some chip on Weezing-Galar. The set is Bolt Beak (for obvious reasons), Freeze Dry for Swampert and other Water/Ground types. Life Orb is for all around better damage and securing a kill on Excadrill after Bolt Beak failing into Stomping Tantrum (which gets boosted). Icicle Crash for securing kills on Dragon Types and other mons. You could also use Low Kick for Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. A more reliable variant would be:

Arctozolt @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Slush Rush
EVs: 252 Atk / 12 SpA / 244 Spe
Naive Nature
- Bolt Beak
- Freeze-Dry/Blizzard
- Icicle Crash
- Substitute

The third mon is a Chople Berry Kyurem, which is just pure goodness, big shoutout to MurderousMantyke for introducing me to this set.
Chople Kyurem helps bait mons like Barraskewda, Urshifu, Zeraora etc. and in turn killing them off and help free up other mons on the team. Another variant would be Heavy-Duty Boots which is still amazing on Kyurem and helps it come in more often.

Fourth Mon is MONKE. Darmanitan Galar provides great speed control, great coverage and momentum with U-Turn. The mon is pretty straight forward so I won't go too into detail with it. Another variant would be one with Stone Edge to make your Fire MU way better.

Fifth mon is (the single best Mamoswine set on ice imo) Sash Endeavour Mamoswine. This mon helps out so much by stopping mons like like Volcarona, Meteor Beam Celesteela, etc. in its tracks and also provides you with that Electric Immunity. Endeavour+Ice Shard is a free kill as long as there are no hazards up (which the next mon will help do), and it's in general a great mon that can dish out some heavy hits.

The Last but not in any way the least is Avalugg. The set I run is Iron Defense Body Press with Rapid Spin and Recover for longevity. Rapid Spin+Sturdy+HDB guarantees you get those hazards off your field (unless you're fighting ghost). ID Body Press is a bit controversial but it works out great for me. Another Variant would be EQ instead of Iron Defense to help you hit those annoying ghost types. All Round a great physical wall and the longevity with recover is amazing.

And that's the end, in conclusion Ice is an amazing anti meta pick and you're seeing it more often in Tournaments nowadays. The addition of Arctozolt this gen is helping it out a lot too, and Ice now rests in a pretty good spot in the meta game (unless you meet those oh so horrific triple protect steels, which all Ice mainers despise, I still have PTSD from when I lost a game just before the 1700s because of one).

 

[Rinda]

Hi, i’m sorry to bring this discussion to the table again, but sadly I still can’t understand how Moltres galar is still slipping to the cracks. Some good arguments in favor of a suspect have been given in the previous page, but I honestly don’t think there are enough to justify a ban, as they mostly argue on Goltres « overpowerness ». To me, the main problem about Goltres (added to the fact it’s indeed strong), is that its presence in the metagame reduces the importance of « player skill » in determining the winner, in the way that it often rewards random decisions in the building and ingame (by random i mean that you have to make choices without informations), and rng, instead of the better player.

First, the variety of sets that can be used independently of the rest of the team makes it impossible to predict until the opponent fully reveals it. I’d like to emphasize on the words in bold because it is the main difference with other great mons in the metagame who also have a good variety of dangerous sets (lando/dragapult/chomp…), but on who you can make strong assumptions if you scout the rest of the team well. The direct consequence of that is that you'll have to play all the game without knowing whether you have the right to take a kill with a potential setup fodder, whether you should better keep your special wall or your fast revenge killer, whether you have to set rocks (hdb vs leftos/chesto) etc. In many situations, there is nothing to be proud if you did the right play that allowed you to beat the goltres set, you just made a bet and it worked or not.

An other main point is how much the efficiency of all these sets depends on rng. Fiery wrath has a 20% chance to flinch, what is not enough to make « going for the flinch » be considered as a viable plan unless you need it (like it could be the case with jirachi/togekiss), but clearly enough to steal a game. This 20% flinch ruins the winning chance of types that are naturally very weak to moltres-g (psy, ghost, nihi less poison, water, ground, steel -this list is way too long btw-). This is particularly a nonsense to me because it means the better player in the builder/ingame who aims to win thanks to a colbur/twave/any other tech loses the game 20% of the time, even though he has correctly guessed the set and prepped for it.
Fiery wrath is not the only rng factor in its moveset, sleep talk and its 1/3 chance to become this terrible move i’ve just mentionned, or air slash/hurricane that are a little more niche in flying but are still viables options that increase the impact of rng on the game.

Finally, Goltres is a huge restriction in the building. If we try to make a list of mons/sets that allow you to beat goltres flying for sure (even in a situation where fiery wrath flinches 2 times on 3 hits), i think tyranitar would be the only thing that you would still use if goltres did not exist. Well, he may not be the only mon in the meta who forces you to run specific techs if you really want to beat it (although they are not many neither). You may even say that it’s pokemon, you can’t prep for everything, and that’s true. But here we are talking about a mon who has been brought 40 times over 90 games in mwp, being the 2nd most used pokemon in the whole tier behind landorus. It almost means that bringing a team that loses to Goltres is a kind of fishing. I think most players who build in the tier agree on this point, so I’m not doing a type by type analysis of how you are restricted to check goltres and why a lot of mons who could be considered as fine answers are not real checks because of different sets/rng, but we can have this discussion if needed.

 

[Bouki]

I also wanted to give my opinion on Moltres G. on certain aspects this pokemon reminds me of vullaby when I played Lc. The combination of agility + bersek makes this pokemon a central pokemon in the tier. For me the problem is not in the fact that he has a 20% chance to flinch but in his statistics and in the variety of his sets. if we talk about his sets Moltres can adapt to any style of teams, whether it is the formidable chesto rest set or the set with substitute. Recently we have also seen sets with Taunt to counter the Heatran with roar. For me the main problem of Moltres G is in his stats which allow him to set up very easily and also very difficult to put on ohko.
I'm not saying that this pokemon deserves a ban, but for me the question of a suspect seems legit for me.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

My proposal on...




I am a user of G-Moltres on Dark, but I must say that if I had the damned voting reqs, I would vote Ban.

The problem is that on Flying, Moltres-Galar just has too much synergy with Landorus-T (how is this beast still here?!) and Celesteela. Fiery Wrath is just Dark Pulse with +10 BP, but it's a good move nonetheless. Its flinch chance is also good for stealing games:

+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 80 HP / 0 SpD Nihilego: 213-252 (56.2 - 66.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: If you manage to set up on a Shuckle or something, this flinch could win you the game.

+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 169-200 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: This should not happen. Tapu Koko is hypothetically a specialized counter for G-Moltres, but gets 2HKO'd?

I will include a type chart when I get the time. Until then, adios.

​

 

[DreamPrince]

As someone who has managed to reach 1700s by using a Hyper Offense Dark Team and Balanced Flying, I wanted to post my Thoughts on Galarian Moltres These are the sets I used, the first one is for Dark, the other is for Flying.

Moltres Sets

Moltres-Galar @ Weakness Policy
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Fiery Wrath
- Agility

Moltres-Galar @ Leftovers
Ability: Berserk
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Nasty Plot
- Hurricane
- Fiery Wrath
- Substitute

The ability to threaten Fighting and Bug with Flying Moves and potentially sweep them after an Agillity is the main draw to using Galarian Moltres. It can sweep types that What makes Double Dance particularly threatening to offensive teams is that you cannot expect it drop to one hit with a supereffective STAB attack, thanks to Dual Screens from Grimmsnarl and 90/90/125 Sp.Def. Dark/Flying is a terrific STAB combination with only Rock/Fairy, Rock/Dark, Electric/Fairy, and Dark/Electric come to mind. Both of Moltres's moves are punishing as well. Fiery Wrath can have clutch 20% chance to make an opponent flinch, which can spell doom for one answer, while Hurricane's confusion makes it difficult to switch in. Morepeko is unviable, Tapu Koko is too frail, which only leaves really Tyranitar and Diancie as answers. It also does not help that well that most offensive types like Electric and Water only have one Dark Resist, which leaves very easy for Moltres to snowball after a single Agility especially since Weakness Policy discourages Super Effective Hits. Moltres does have some flaws though, its damage output before a Nasty Plot, and can struggle to breakthrough threats like Mantine and Celesteela without a Nasty Plot boost. This is where the substitute Nasty Plot comes in. Substitute allows it ti set up on Toxic users like Toxapex and use them as complete set up fodder. Moltres's biggest issue is unpredictability- Clear Smog Gastrodon is a check to Double Dance but is fodder for Substitute, while something Lele can revenge kill Nasty Plot but falls to Double Dance.

Replays showing how lethal Moltres can be, even if it can't sweep teams:

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1516096844

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1512751543

https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8monotype-1510528030

 

[mushamu]

i think this is another mon where its def unhealthy but ppl dont realize it yet. sub roost is so fucking ridiculous my god. its funny cuz ppl used to run corviknight/spd steela to beat kyurem but that unironically loses bc eventually u run out of press pp/u get frozen/u get crit bc kyurem just sits on the field like a tumor until it gets lucky/stalls ur opps pp out. tho once again prepping for this probably frees up a lot when other mons are deleted; it's wrong to say kyurem has no counterplay whatsoever, like steel having scizor/mel, poison with infiltrator crobat, spd exca on ground. Now none of these are actually good checks, but thankfully mono is blessed with the fact that you can not use kyurem outside of dragon ice. even so, pressure, 130 hp, and good offensive coverage is kinda ridiculous on the same mon. oh yea, it can run other sets too so you could end up going spd crobat on kyurem and get ohkod by specs ice beam, go spd steela on kyu but get dded on rofl, or click urshifu into it but it happens to be scarf/chople.

I wanted to say that I agree with Galarian Moltres getting a suspect but I think Kyurem should be suspected over it first. I echo everything hyper said in his post because Kyurem most definitely has the entire metagame in its palm at the moment.

Between its 3 main viable sets in Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, and the notorious SubRoost, Kyurem counterplay is extremely restricted in Monotype for a lot of types. If we take a look at what's at the top right now, the only types which are completely safe from being killed by Kyurem are the types with Galarian Slowking on it, Psychic and Poison. The rest of the top types would probably be something along the lines of Water, Flying, Ground, Dark, Fairy, Steel, and Electric. Water and Flying are pretty self explanatory; they both have to go out of their way to run unorthodox things in order to not lose to Kyurem but can still lose to Choice Specs beating natural answers. Water has to dedicate a slot for Walrein (which does essentially nothing else but check Kyurem) in order to not get destroyed by it; Flying has to run some combination of Flash Cannon + Heavy Slam Celesteela + a Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Kyurem from full in order to have the best odds possible against it (and can still lose to a freeze). Standard Steel teams can actually lose to SubRoost unless you fit Melmetal or Scizor, and Kyurem makes Galarian Slowking mandatory on Poison, a slot that can be otherwise used for something else simply by existing. No other Pokemon autowins against this many types in the metagame when unprepared for, and preparing for Kyurem in the builder can be a nightmare which restricts the type of teams you can run effectively in this tier by a noticeable amount.

I also think the fact that Freeze Dry's ability to freeze a wincon is also a viable argument for it to be banned. There's always going to be RNG associated with Pokemon because at the end of the day luck does play a huge part in the game, but what sets Kyurem apart from like, Hydreigon Dark Pulse flinching a Hatterene or even another Ice-type Pokemon freezing a wincon is that Kyurem often sits on the field for a while each time it's out, clicking Substitute + Roost + Freeze Dry over and over again. When SubRoost Kyurem is probably out on the field and attacking for 10 turns at a time, there's a good chance your Celesteela gets frozen after taking like 7+ Freeze Drys which pretty much means you lose the game if you don't instantly thaw out. From looking at the Monotype invitational and in other tournaments there's been a good portion of games that have been decided because Kyurem randomly froze the wincon into the opponent instantly losing. Even if you run double Steel STAB Celesteela, you still lose the interaction with SubRoost Kyurem a good amount of the time solely because it more often eventually freezes you than not. When a Pokemon has only a few select answers across the metagame, forces a good portion of types to bend their back so that they don't lose to it, and can still play the odds game with Freeze Dry against a prepped team, then it should probably be taken a look at. The metagame would be in a much better place without Kyurem both building and playing wise. Last but not least, I do think Freeze Dry does toe the edges of uncompetitiveness in Monotype similarly to what lead the Zygarde forms being banned in SM; Freeze Dry going past the natural type chart means that a player can't check it through natural means and is why I say they have to dedicate a slot on Water for Walrein in order to not autolose.

As for Galarian Moltres, I think it definitely deserves a suspect, but not until Kyurem is dealt with. The reasoning behind this is that I feel Kyurem has a much bigger impact on the metagame as it is harder to prepare for in the builder despite Galarian Moltres being on better types, Flying being the best type in general at the moment. Galarian Moltres is a huge threat but many types can maneuver around it in-game and it doesn't necessarily bend building as much as Kyurem does. Fiery Wrath flinching isn't that big either compared to Kyurem's Freeze Dry in my opinion because it's only around 20% and it doesn't necessarily get as many chances to click it compared to Kyurem clicking Freeze Dry over and over again. It's definitely a Pokemon that I would personally want to keep until after the metagame has developed more when obviously unhealthy Pokemon such as Kyurem are axed.

Also it's worth bringing up these points for discussion:

Acupressure is uncompetitive. It's essentially Moody as a move. It's completely luck based and there's a good amount of solid teams that just have nothing to beat Drapion under Substitute. There's not really much else to say about it; it takes the game out of the players hands and does not require any skill to use at all.

I believe Icy Rock should be looked at because 8 turns of hail is dreadful now with the introduction of Arctozolt. Counterplay to it in Monotype is generally super restricted when it has one of the best STAB combinations in the game with BoltBeam. Many types just get straight up shat on by it such as Poison, Psychic, Flying, Water, and Dark, so letting it roam free for 8 turns is overkill. I don't think Ice is consistently good in Monotype, but it is problematic in the sense that it is very strong and does autowin against a lot of types easily because Kyurem + Arctozolt with 8 turns of hail is just overwhelming for a lot of teams.

 

[juleocesar]

I wanted to say that I agree with Galarian Moltres getting a suspect but I think Kyurem should be suspected over it first. I echo everything hyper said in his post because Kyurem most definitely has the entire metagame in its palm at the moment.

Between its 3 main viable sets in Dragon Dance, Choice Specs, and the notorious SubRoost, Kyurem counterplay is extremely restricted in Monotype for a lot of types. If we take a look at what's at the top right now, the only types which are completely safe from being killed by Kyurem are the types with Galarian Slowking on it, Psychic and Poison. The rest of the top types would probably be something along the lines of Water, Flying, Ground, Dark, Fairy, Steel, and Electric. Water and Flying are pretty self explanatory; they both have to go out of their way to run unorthodox things in order to not lose to Kyurem but can still lose to Choice Specs beating natural answers. Water has to dedicate a slot for Walrein (which does essentially nothing else but check Kyurem) in order to not get destroyed by it; Flying has to run some combination of Flash Cannon + Heavy Slam Celesteela + a Pokemon that can outspeed and OHKO Kyurem from full in order to have the best odds possible against it (and can still lose to a freeze). Standard Steel teams can actually lose to SubRoost unless you fit Melmetal or Scizor, and Kyurem makes Galarian Slowking mandatory on Poison, a slot that can be otherwise used for something else simply by existing. No other Pokemon autowins against this many types in the metagame when unprepared for, and preparing for Kyurem in the builder can be a nightmare which restricts the type of teams you can run effectively in this tier by a noticeable amount.

I also think the fact that Freeze Dry's ability to freeze a wincon is also a viable argument for it to be banned. There's always going to be RNG associated with Pokemon because at the end of the day luck does play a huge part in the game, but what sets Kyurem apart from like, Hydreigon Dark Pulse flinching a Hatterene or even another Ice-type Pokemon freezing a wincon is that Kyurem often sits on the field for a while each time it's out, clicking Substitute + Roost + Freeze Dry over and over again. When SubRoost Kyurem is probably out on the field and attacking for 10 turns at a time, there's a good chance your Celesteela gets frozen after taking like 7+ Freeze Drys which pretty much means you lose the game if you don't instantly thaw out. From looking at the Monotype invitational and in other tournaments there's been a good portion of games that have been decided because Kyurem randomly froze the wincon into the opponent instantly losing. Even if you run double Steel STAB Celesteela, you still lose the interaction with SubRoost Kyurem a good amount of the time solely because it more often eventually freezes you than not. When a Pokemon has only a few select answers across the metagame, forces a good portion of types to bend their back so that they don't lose to it, and can still play the odds game with Freeze Dry against a prepped team, then it should probably be taken a look at. The metagame would be in a much better place without Kyurem both building and playing wise. Last but not least, I do think Freeze Dry does toe the edges of uncompetitiveness in Monotype similarly to what lead the Zygarde forms being banned in SM; Freeze Dry going past the natural type chart means that a player can't check it through natural means and is why I say they have to dedicate a slot on Water for Walrein in order to not autolose.

As for Galarian Moltres, I think it definitely deserves a suspect, but not until Kyurem is dealt with. The reasoning behind this is that I feel Kyurem has a much bigger impact on the metagame as it is harder to prepare for in the builder despite Galarian Moltres being on better types, Flying being the best type in general at the moment. Galarian Moltres is a huge threat but many types can maneuver around it in-game and it doesn't necessarily bend building as much as Kyurem does. Fiery Wrath flinching isn't that big either compared to Kyurem's Freeze Dry in my opinion because it's only around 20% and it doesn't necessarily get as many chances to click it compared to Kyurem clicking Freeze Dry over and over again. It's definitely a Pokemon that I would personally want to keep until after the metagame has developed more when obviously unhealthy Pokemon such as Kyurem are axed.

Also it's worth bringing up these points for discussion:

Acupressure is uncompetitive. It's essentially Moody as a move. It's completely luck based and there's a good amount of solid teams that just have nothing to beat Drapion under Substitute. There's not really much else to say about it; it takes the game out of the players hands and does not require any skill to use at all.

I believe Icy Rock should be looked at because 8 turns of hail is dreadful now with the introduction of Arctozolt. Counterplay to it in Monotype is generally super restricted when it has one of the best STAB combinations in the game with BoltBeam. Many types just get straight up shat on by it such as Poison, Psychic, Flying, Water, and Dark, so letting it roam free for 8 turns is overkill. I don't think Ice is consistently good in Monotype, but it is problematic in the sense that it is very strong and does autowin against a lot of types easily because Kyurem + Arctozolt with 8 turns of hail is just overwhelming for a lot of teams.

I'd like to say that i agree with most of the arguments being presented for kyurem's suspect and i am in favor of it, but i disagree with it being the priority over galarian-Moltres. G-Moltres is equally harder to prepare for if not harder, and at this point it needs to be accounted in by any decent builder in ss (due to the very high prevalence of mainly flying but also dark). The hax argument can also be applied here because of fiery's wrath flinch chance, and there has been countless flinch scenarios where the wincon or the very one possible check of it got flinched 1 or 2 times in a row which basically decided the game for the g-moltres player. G-moltres basically instawins vs psychic and ghost anyways and it can destroy a lot of other types with proper support, notably steel, poison, flying, and water (which should almost always check it offensively or through fini, which's a means of centralization). Hell, ghost barely even has any options against outside of maybe mimikyu which is easy to pivot if you are flying (celesteela / corviknight and landorus are all great checks to it) and it is a pokemon that cannot directly switch in unlike walrein but i understand the former is overall more useful than the latter.

Either way my point is that Galarian-Moltres is more impactful in the metagame across many types (fiery wrath has less resistances than freeze dry in general and can flinch) and represents a much wider centralization in building terms in the sense that almost every type needs to prepare vs it, whereas Kyurem is less impactful overall but can be a big pain for certain specific matchups like Water and Flying depending on the set it runs. In the same vein, G-Moltres can run a wide variety of sets which include ChestoRest, Taunt, Substitute or even flying coverage, and although they are not entirelly different from each other, they have to be dealt differently by many types. Finally, if Kyurem is to be suspected first, the metagame will be more unstable than the other way around because G-Moltres appreciates even further if one of its checks get banned, which will further lead Flying to the bondaries of being overly powerful, even if it only remains for a brief window. Sorry for poor wording overall but hopefully my points about prioritizing galarian-moltres have become clear with this post.

 

[mushamu]

I'd like to say that i agree with most of the arguments being presented for kyurem's suspect and i am in favor of it, but i disagree with it being the priority over galarian-Moltres. G-Moltres is equally harder to prepare for if not harder, and at this point it needs to be accounted in by any decent builder in ss (due to the very high prevalence of mainly flying but also dark). The hax argument can also be applied here because of fiery's wrath flinch chance, and there has been countless flinch scenarios where the wincon or the very one possible check of it got flinched 1 or 2 times in a row which basically decided the game for the g-moltres player. G-moltres basically instawins vs psychic and ghost anyways and it can destroy a lot of other types with proper support, notably steel, poison, flying, and water (which should almost always check it offensively or through fini, which's a means of centralization). Hell, ghost barely even has any options against outside of maybe mimikyu which is easy to pivot if you are flying (celesteela / corviknight and landorus are all great checks to it) and it is a pokemon that cannot directly switch in unlike walrein but i understand the former is overall more useful than the latter.

Galarian Moltres doesn't instawin against Psychic when a well played Tapu Lele can always beat it and the rest of the Flying team. Galarian Moltres on Flying doesn't run Flying STAB commonly, so Water can check it fine with Urshifu-R or Tapu Fini, like you said. Poison has Galarian Weezing, and Flying has Galarian Zapdos to beat it. Ghost doesn't have answers to a lot of things; it uses Mimikyu as a catch all and Galarian Moltres just happens to be one of the Pokemon it saves Ghost from instantly losing. If you give up Galarian Moltres's Taunt for Flying coverage then you're susceptible to a lot of other things like Leech Seed, Taunt, Haze, status, and Roar, so it frees up counterplay in its own right. The bottom line is that while Galarian Moltres is a huge threat in game, many types can answer it more or less through outplaying.

Finally, if Kyurem is to be suspected first, the metagame will be more unstable than the other way around because G-Moltres appreciates even further if one of its checks get banned, which will further lead Flying to the bondaries of being overly powerful, even if it only remains for a brief window. Sorry for poor wording overall but hopefully my points about prioritizing galarian-moltres have become clear with this post.

Kyurem not only oppresses Flying but many other types in the tier. Banning it would let other types have more breathing room in the builder in order to prepare for Flying. Water is no longer forced to play with 5 Pokemon, Poison can now drop Galarian Slowking for either Gengar or Nihilego, the list goes on and on. I don't see a lot changing building wise if Galarian Moltres gets banned, it's mainly Kyurem being a pain in the butt to prepare against making squeezing counterplay for Galarian Moltres extremely hard in the builder. I don't think Flying is broken by any means; it's super strong but not to an unhealthy extent to the point where it's unbearable and a lot of the games with Flying and Galarian Moltres in them have been competitive. The same cannot be said for Kyurem, a Pokemon that autowins against many types at preview and forces many luck based interactions based off of Freeze Dry. It's easier to play yourself out of the position that one Fiery Wrath flinch decides the game than Kyurem's Freeze Dry because it's easier to answer Galarian Moltres offensively with Pokemon like Urshifu-R and Tapu Lele whereas Kyurem's counterplay is mainly defensive because it has reliable recovery alongside Substitute. There's been a depressing amount of games that have ended due to Freeze Dry freezing. It's pretty obviously unhealthy.

 

[risinguptothetop]

I would like to agree with juleocesar in saying that Galarian Moltres should 100% be above Kyurem on the suspect priority list. Galarian Moltres can also run a variety of sets making it tough to play against. Due to flying's excellent ability to pivot with Landorus-T's U-Turn, Zapdos-G's U-Turn and Thundurus-T's Volt Switch, Goltres can come in and can be positioned fairly easily. A fully offensive double dance two attacks Goltres is a huge threat, a Substitute Goltres can setup in front of bulkier mons without getting it's sub broken due to Goltres's amazing 125/90/90 bulk. Taunt can prevent Recovers and Hazes on a Toxapex or Soft Boileds on a Blissey and prevents other counterplay such as Roar Tran and Roar Swampert. The RestoChesto set providese it that recovery that it lacks and also makes the Goltres not worry about status at all. It's not only the fact that Galarian Moltres on it's own autowins against a bunch of types like Ghost and Psychic, Its also the fact that it has an amazing core to support it on both Flying and Dark, and can comfortably switch in thanks to pivoting/screens/sheer bulk.
The cherry on top is the chance to flinch on both of Goltres's STAB moves in Fiery Wrath and Air Slash, and just like a Scald Burn, these happen way more than the percentage would indicate, making it so that, even if you have a designated check to Galarian Moltres, it can still flinch you down with the involvement of RNG.

Finally, if Kyurem is to be suspected first, the metagame will be more unstable than the other way around because G-Moltres appreciates even further if one of its checks get banned, which will further lead Flying to the bondaries of being overly powerful, even if it only remains for a brief window. Sorry for poor wording overall but hopefully my points about prioritizing galarian-moltres have become clear with this post.

This is 100% the part I most agree with, banning Kyurem first would make flying even more uncheckable, it's already the best type in the metagame and banning one of it's checks would make Flying even more meta centralizing and quite overpowered. I 100% support a Kyurem suspect but don't think it should ever be done before the Goltres suspect.
I've seen many people complain about Goltres and list the same reasons over and over again, so I apologize if it's getting a bit repetitive but this only assers the fact that we're due a Goltres suspect and I hope it is looked into further by the council.

 

[mushamu]

The cherry on top is the chance to flinch on both of Goltres's STAB moves in Fiery Wrath and Air Slash, and just like a Scald Burn, these happen way more than the percentage would indicate, making it so that, even if you have a designated check to Galarian Moltres, it can still flinch you down with the involvement of RNG.

My point was it's easier to put yourself out of the position where a flinch from Galarian Moltres decides the game compared to Kyurem's Freeze Dry freezing.

This is 100% the part I most agree with, banning Kyurem first would make flying even more uncheckable, it's already the best type in the metagame and banning one of it's checks would make Flying even more meta centralizing and quite overpowered. I 100% support a Kyurem suspect but don't think it should ever be done before the Goltres suspect.

I cannot imagine a metagame where Kyurem is balanced even without Galarian Moltres, but to me, Galarian Moltres can potentially be balanced when building is freed up after Kyurem is removed from the tier. I don't think "Kyurem checks Flying" is a valid argument to not ban it, because then you're just using the argument of broken checking broken so the main thing you should think about is how the metagame develops after Kyurem is gone in order to prevent Pokemon, in this case, Galarian Moltres, from needlessly being banned from the tier. Dragon and Ice don’t even care that much about Galarian Moltres; it’s moreso about the other types it affects, so Kyurem beating Flying should not be considered here in my opinion.

 

[wkxkevin]

My point was it's easier to put yourself out of the position where a flinch from Galarian Moltres decides the game compared to Kyurem's Freeze Dry freezing.

I cannot imagine a metagame where Kyurem is balanced even without Galarian Moltres, but to me, Galarian Moltres can potentially be balanced when building is freed up after Kyurem is removed from the tier. I don't think "Kyurem checks Flying" is a valid argument to not ban it, because then you're just using the argument of broken checking broken so the main thing you should think about is how the metagame develops after Kyurem is gone in order to prevent Pokemon, in this case, Galarian Moltres, from needlessly being banned from the tier. Dragon and Ice don’t even care that much about Galarian Moltres; it’s moreso about the other types it affects, so Kyurem beating Flying should not be considered here in my opinion.

I agree with Decem. The only reason I don't mind kyurem that much is because I ladder with steel(psychic is for ladder doesn't work, I prefer using for anything else but ladder) and I play a very offensive steel team with AV melm and specs moonblast jirachi which both help a lot in curbing kyurem madness. However, when I play psychic in tours and events I don't have such luxury and that when I see the abomination that is kyurem. First of all, freeze is a busted *** status that doesn't just allow you to bypass a pokemon but to completely cripple it even at high health. I would rather lose a game to 20% FW flinch that to lose to 10% Freeze. In addition, goltres is actually not as bad for psychic as one would think. Proper plays with lele as well as t wave rachi, lati twins and sash zam can all aid in the effort to bring goltres down. On the other can, kyurem does give people this luxury. The main reason is because of its ability and reliable recovery in roost. Pressure makes checking it throughout a game impossible because super effective move have their pp halved and usually, the super effective move is needed to beat the rest of kyurem's team. Reliable recovery throughout a game allows kyurem to often outlast the enemy team and corner them.

Here are my thoughts on the meta. Let's suspect test kyurem immediately after BLT is over. Then, let's suspect goltres. If kyu gets banned, goltres will most likely get the axe as well.

 

[Kev]

So there has been a lot of discussion regarding Moltres-Galar, and a bit for Kyurem. The council has discussed Moltres-Galar on multiple occasions, and the reason there has been no suspect is that at no point have we ever believed this Pokemon meets the requirements for a suspect; not a single member strongly believes the Pokemon should be banned. We are still discussing it and are open to being persuaded into doing a suspect. I also don't want to sound like there is absolute no interest in doing a suspect within the council, just not a single member believes it is a necessary or better decision.

In a general sense, a Pokemon should be suspected if it falls under one of the following categories:

1) The Pokemon is broken. The definition from the official Smogon Tiering Policy: "These aren't necessarily completely uncompetitive because they don't take the determining factor out of the player's hands; both can use these elements and both probably have a fair chance to win. They are broken because they almost dictate / require usage, and a standard team without one of them facing a standard team with one of them would be at a drastic disadvantage. These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere.

2) The Pokemon is uncompetitive. The definition from the official Smogon Tiering Policy: "Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."

3) The Pokemon is unhealthy. The definition from the official Smogon Tiering Policy: "These are elements that may not limit either team building or battling skill enough individually but combine to cause an effect that is undesirable for the metagame. This can also be a state of the metagame. If the metagame has too much diversity wherein team building ability is greatly hampered and battling skill is drastically reduced, we may seek to reduce the number of good-to-great threats. This can also work in reverse; if the metagame is too centralized around a particular set of Pokemon, none of which are broken on their own, we may seek to add Pokemon to increase diversity. This is the most controversial and subjective one and will therefore be used the most sparingly. The Tiering Councils will only use this amidst drastic community outcry and a conviction that the move will noticeably result in the better player winning over the lesser player."

The defence here is that Moltres-Galar does not fall under any of these categories, although we do agree it does come close to the line in some aspects. A very important and crucial case to remember is that of Zapdos whose popularity surged this time last year after the power of the Choice Specs set was discovered and abused on both Flying- and Electric-type teams. If you go back only a few pages in this thread, you can see a large community outcry to get a Zapdos quickban or suspect immediately. In fact, there was even one council support on doing something about the Pokemon. The Pokemon fell under many of the categories in people's opinions, you had to run specific Pokemon to not get demolished by the Hurricane-Electric Move-Heat Wave combo and skillful play sometimes got diminished by Hurricane confusions. However, the council ultimately decided to do nothing because of a belief that the reaction to Zapdos was simply a knee-jerk response to a strong threat being introduced. We believed that giving the community time to adapt to it, there would be no problem. Now look where we are now; Zapdos is an absolutely normal Pokemon in the metagame and the tier naturally evolved around it. In fact, the Choice Specs set is much less frequently used on Flying-type teams because it is just not as effective anymore. This was all done without as the above policies mention, putting teams at a large disadvantage in other matchups. This case needs to be looked at with great care as it is a cautionary tale on the habit of crying suspect as soon as something is strong. That does not just refer to Moltres-Galar, but in general many of the things mentioned in Decem's post.

It is not our job as a council to suspect things "just to change stuff up" or "because people want it", which are genuine comments I've received from certain people. It would be incredibly irresponsible to suspect a Pokemon for the sake of suspecting it, without genuinely believing that it is a detriment to the quality of play in the tier.

Now that I've gotten that out of the way, I'll go over why I do not believe Moltres-Galar deserves a suspect. These arguments are my own and not those of the entire council, although many do reflect topics that have come up during discussions.

Zapdos syndrome

I already explained this topic above, but just to clarify, I believe Moltres-Galar falls within this category. While functionally speaking, both Pokemon operate differently and have their distinctions, with Zapdos only having one broken set, but Moltres-Galar having some degree of flexibility. The reason it falls under Zapdos syndrome is that I believe the tier has managed to mostly adapt to it and that without running nonsensical counters that are useless in other matchups. The one exception I can recall is seeing Triple Axel Froslass on Ghost, but otherwise the answers to the Pokemon are generally good things that end up on teams regardless. Frol1 and Decem also addressed this in their own posts, but just in general there isn't really many "autowin" matchups for Moltres-Galar that exist; it has rather big trade-offs when it decides what set to use that make it vulnerable to more things. Another suspect element from the Zapdos syndrome is its "luck factor". Similar to how we can see many arguments about how Zapdos' Hurricane confusing is unhealthy, we see arguments about Fiery Wrath flinches. I totally agree that flinching is annoying and not a great part of Pokemon, and something that isn't always unavoidable. However, If we are to ban a Pokemon because it has a hard hitting move that can flinch. Do we ban Hydreigon because it has Nasty Plot and Dark Pulse that can flinch? Do we ban Weavile because it can Swords Dance and then flinch a team down with Icicle Crash? Do we ban Jirachi because it can theoretically flinch out some teams that lack a good Steel resist? Yes, I know it is not as simple as "it's move can flinch", but the bottom line does not change. Moltres-Galar's ability to flinch is not significant enough to consider it an unhealthy part of the metagame. It's annoying as hell when it happens, but at the end of the day we do need to deal with SOME probability management and luck aspects in the game of Pokemon; not everything is as simple to control/remove like King's Rock.

The tl;dr here is: the metagame has shown to adapt to Moltres-Galar relatively naturally, it does not "autowin" matchups at preview in most cases and it's ability to flinch is a non-argument.

Usage does not correlate with performance / Moltres-Galar does not have a dominant performance

But here we are talking about a mon who has been brought 40 times over 90 games in mwp, being the 2nd most used pokemon in the whole tier behind landorus. It almost means that bringing a team that loses to Goltres is a kind of fishing.

Now that number definitely seem daunting if you just look at itself, but there are multiple factors to consider.

First of all, Flying-type teams were used 50%. I'm sure some could try to say that Moltres-Galar is the reason the usage is so high but that is a bit of a reach. The Flying-type has universally been one of the best of the tier this generation because of the great diversity it offers in the era of dexit. Every Monotype team tour of SS that has a usage stats sheet (MWP3, MWP4, MWCOP2, MPL7) have the type at a usage of around 15-20%, even back when Moltres-Galar usage was below 20%. Moreover, the win rate stays consistently around 45-50%. These numbers are also consistent in tournaments where SM was CG. Basically, Flying is always gonna have a high usage in these tournaments and have a similar win rate, pointing out that one of the best pokemon of the type was used in almost all its games is like being shocked that Heatran was used 20+ times when its a given because Steel usage is bound to be high and its going to be on every Steel team.

Another point to consider is that, yes it was used a lot but it's win rate is quite mediocre at 16-22. Moreover, saying that bringing at sam that loses to Goltres is a kind of fishing is akin to saying bringing a team with no Electric, Water or Ground immunity/resist is fishing. As mentioned before, the metagame has naturally evolved to handle this Pokemon and thus any good team should be able to handle it effectively bar some very scarce exceptions but thus is the nature of Monotype.

Now to drive in the point that Moltres-Galar's impact is not as dominant as it may seem, I'll skim through every game in MWP that involved it:

Dark

Havens (Psychic) vs Shiba (Dark) - Not only does Psychic win the game, but the Moltres-Galar did not even get to click a move

Evigaro (Dark) vs Star (Steel) - Dark does win this game, but it's doubtful the outcome would be any different without Moltres-Galar. The pressure placed by Hydreigon-Zarude-Bisharp was always going to be the same with the screens support.

Jojo (Electric) vs Adjustments (Dark) - No opening to for Moltres-Galar to set up. This is also a reference to the below quote. That calc is indeed scary and all, but it involves a very improbably scenario. It would require Moltres-Galar to get +2 in both SpA and Spe when both Tapu Koko's types are almost never letting that happen if played well. It might be a bit more possible with screens support but still marginally likely.

+2 252+ SpA Moltres-Galar Fiery Wrath vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 169-200 (60.1 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO: This should not happen. Tapu Koko is hypothetically a specialized counter for G-Moltres, but gets 2HKO'd?

Floss (Fairy) vs Padox (Dark) - Again, Moltres-Galar does not get to do anything. Although in all fairness, Fairy is one of the best types to handle Moltres-Galar.

Aberforth (Dark) vs Jonfilch (Fairy) - Same story as the above, however in this one it still manages to set up but fails at collecting a kill. Admittedly, it a Moonblast drop did save the Lele from being knocked out the next turn, but the Moltres would need some luck to win from that point regardless.

Jolly Togekiss (Steel) vs cy (Dark) - Again, it didn't really do much here. The Cobalion could be considered a less conventional option but its not one that stems solely from Moltres-Galar but instead is general a good choice vs Dark-type teams that have many options for Steel.

Kaguya Lys (Dark) vs Cherbou (Steel) - Another example of Dark winning this matchup, but without Moltres contributing much to the end result. If it was banned it's most likely Hydreigon would've just taken that slot on the team and produced the same or an even worse end result.

mixwell (Dark) vs TJ (Fairy) - Another example of Dark vs Fairy. Here, the Moltres-Galar does get the aforementioned +2 Spe, +2 Spa AND the confusion on Tapu Koko, but ultimately fails on making a major dent in the team.

Overall summary of its performance on Dark is that it just did not have much an appearance on this type. It lost most of the games and when it won the win was going to happen without it anyways. Although, the conclusions are not perfect since the list of matchups are not diverse and are often types that Moltres-Galar is going to struggle setting on / breaking. In a general sense though, it has not shown to be much of an oppressing threat on Dark-type Screen teams during the latest tournament.

Flying

freezai (Water) vs Leafium Z (Flying) - It "won the game" here, but a lot of weird moments in the game that kind of invalidate it. Seeing that Zapdos-Galar would've won from that point if not sacked or Urshifu not taking the Thunderbolt winning the game for Water.

jonfilch (Flying) vs Adjustments (Flying) - Moltres-Galar was on both sides here, and while it definitely provided a decent presence, I'd say it's far from being unhealthy in this game.

Floss (Flying) vs Evigaro (Dark) - Moltres-Galar couldn't do anything in the game.

Xiri (Flying) vs Adjustments (Water) - I suppose a case can be made here for the Cloyster being run as a Moltres-Galar answer

Feitan (Flying) vs Cielau (Flying) - Neither Moltres-Galar did anything

King Choco (Steel) vs freezai (Dark) - Failed at breaking the Steel team, but the Fiery that failed at killing Melmetal could've been a roll which could've have changed the rest of the game

Meta (Flying) vs TJ (Ice) - As expected, didn't get the chance to do anything here as it needs to setup to be a threat but does not have the opportunity to do so in this matchup

Elfuseon (Flying) vs beatiful (Grass) - A rare Rest set with Hurricane was not able to make a dent on a Grass-team

Havens (Water) vs Padox (Flying) - Another game where Moltres-Galar does not achieve much. It can be argued that it helped the defensive core accomplish what it did, but if it was replaced the outcome is likely to be similar

yedla (Flying) vs Hurtadoo (Flying) - Neither Moltres-Galar even clicked a move

Adjustments (Psychic) vs King Choco (Flying) - It was a fairly annoying in this game, I could definitely still see the same outcome happening with a replacement but eh. Also don't really see anything too revolutionary about a Dark-type breaker putting lots of pressure on a Psychic-type team

Jojo8868 (Flying) vs Aberforth (Ground) - It never managed to effectively set up in this game to become a genuine threat

Pujo (Water) vs yedla (Flying) - A bit of a threat but very manageable

Nailec (Flying) vs Padox (Flying) - One Moltres-Galar was able to handle the other, without it resulting in the winner of that confrontation going on to sweep the rest of the team

Havens (Ground) vs TJ (Flying) - It didn't in any way make the game unplayable or impossible for the Ground side

King Choco (Flying) vs beatiful (Flying) - Same story as all the other flying vs flying games

Havens (Flying) vs yedla (Ground) - The first real example of Moltres being a dominant sweeper, although the team it faced was not equipped with good answers for that possible scenario

TJ (Flying) vs Shiba (Poison) - It was a threat to the Poison team but it was able to dispatch of it relatively comfortably.

Shiba (Flying) vs Cherbou (Dragon) - Admittedly, it was a pretty big threat here

Xiri (Water) vs King Choco (Flying) - Another Cloyster situation

Havens (Flying) vs Evigaro (Flying) - Same story as other fly vs fly

Plunder (Flying) vs Cielau (Steel) - Pretty dominant here

Shiba (Fairy) vs Evigaro (Flying) - It does nothing here

Dj Breloominati (Ice) vs yedla (Flying) - Ice

Bluxio (Flying) vs Elfuseon (Steel) - It didn't even click a move here

Hyperspace12 (Flying) vs Xiri (Psychic) - It put in work but it really wasn't oppressive to an unhealthy extent, the Knock Off - Sludge Bomb Thundurus put in just as much work, and the game came down to if Iron Head would flinch or not. Basically, Moltres-Galar did not make this matchup unwindable.

Overall summary of it's performance on Flying is that yes it's a good Pokemon, but it hardly made that much of an impact in most of the games it was involved in. It is definitely a imposing presence but it was scarcely the deciding factor and many of the games would've had the same ultimate outcome without its presence. As per dark, it can also be argued that it did end up often facing types where it wouldn't be as effective as it normally would be.

The takeaway here is that in 40 usages, it might have had an oppressive presence in like 5 of them? A good amount but nothing unbearable. We can go over arguments such that a lot of these matchups are the same ones or that these teams are preventing Moltres-Galar from doing anything because they were designed to do such. However, that is exactly the point. It was easy for the teams in the tournament to naturally find ways to handle it without compromising their other matchups. Also, the answers also served as beneficial in the Flying matchup in general and not just a presence existing solely for Moltres-Galar.

Multiple Sets but Few Options + Availability of Answers

I see a lot of people throw around the multiple sets argument around but am just not convinced by it. Yes, Moltres can run a double dance + dual stabs set, or a Rest / Taunt Mono Dark Stab set, and maybe some variant in between. However, they all boil down to the same limited options and it's easy enough for teams to have an answer for both options. Many teams can easily run a fast Pokemon that isn't threatened by Dark-type moves / that can greatly damage it to handle the Rest / Taunt sets, as well as a phaser / priority for the double dance options. Also, on some types the same answers can handle either set. Basically, it's movepool is pretty shallow, and it has average stats that prevent it from being too overwhelming. It also has a decent amount of weaknesses that are quite splash able on most types.

I think I covered most of the main things I saw mentioned as well as my own opinions.

In general, going off the definitions:

It is not broken because the options to counter it are not niche and serve purposes outside of facing it. They are relatively splashable on many types.

It is not uncompetitive because its ability to flinch does invalidate skillful play most of the time,

It is not unhealthy as the lesser player is not winning over the better player most of the time as shown by MWP games and its removal would not change the outcome of many of those games. It is important to note that in the rule it says and its results in that and not just the community outcry.

Now to address the other things mentioned by Decem:

- Acupressure: We've already discussed and come to a conclusion on this and are currently exploring what options we are allowed to take when dealing with a ban regarding this move.

- Icy Rock: Understand the logic as Ice now has a real Slush Rush abuser. However, the entire council agrees that this is way too early. Ice is only just developing as a meta trend and it should be treated with due diligence by allowing the metagame to first react to the shift. See: Zapdos Syndrome

- Kyurem: We have talked about this Pokemon as well and also don't believe it has breached the threshold for a suspect. It did not have a very dominant MWP as Dragon did absolutely terrible in the tournament and while Ice had a good winrate it's still low amount of wins and skewed by the the fact that it drew Flying a few times.

 

[twinkay]

there is something so incredibly misguided about this idea of "zapdos syndrome" as something to hold against """the masses""" aka """the community""" as a reason to not suspect something. like "hey, we got rewarded for inaction on x so now it's totally justifiable to be inactive on everything else as well!". and the ironic thing about that argument is zapdos did get affected by tiering action, but it just wasn't directly targeted to zapdos, so this argument doesn't even make any sense. the urshifu and dracovish bans undeniably had a huge influence on the specs zapdos metagame - it made poison (ft. av glowking) more viable, it made steel more viable (and allowed for some pretty targeted sets), it made ground, sandless especially, more viable, and it made ice more viable (which we are still dealing with the ramifications of to this day). all of these trends harmed specs zapdos without there needing to be a direct ban. so to act like the metagame magically evolved to handle specs zapdos feels very misrepresentative of what actually happened.

admittedly, i don't really have a horse in the goltres race. i agree with mushamu that the best course of action for the tier would be to suspect kyurem first, and then evaluate goltres' competitiveness afterward. as an example of how a kyurem-less meta could affect goltres, when u don't have to run glowking on both psychic and poison as to not lose to kyurem (it doesn't mean u win against it though) both types get to run a mon that isn't goltres fodder. but still, the idea of a "zapdos syndrome" having any validity over whether or not a community outcry is warranted / a mon is broken is pretty silly.

(also, can we please stop using slippery slope arguments in tiering posts? it's 2022, anyone with a dash of rational thinking would understand that a goltres suspect / ban would not mean that hydreigon is broken cause it has a move that can flinch. to act like the two things are comparable is blatantly ignorant of every other aspect of the mon that people have discussed being broken)

as for as kyurem goes:

- Kyurem: We have talked about this Pokemon as well and also don't believe it has breached the threshold for a suspect. It did not have a very dominant MWP as Dragon did absolutely terrible in the tournament and while Ice had a good winrate it's still low amount of wins and skewed by the the fact that it drew Flying a few times.

dragon has not been a good type since dracovish got banned and it sees use because it has access to the most broken mon in the metagame, so i don't really see dragon's low winrate as a great way to dismiss kyurem. i'd say kyurem artificially boosts dragon's usage so that it stills sees play on the off chance the mon will win you the game. similarly, to dismiss ice's good winrate as "skewed by the fact it drew flying a few times" is pretty disingenuous, are we still pretending type matchups decide everything? flying has a perfectly good matchup (honestly a great one) against ice if it uses double steel stab steela and/or scarf gapdos (which is part of the type's response to kyurem!), and the matchup is usually still winnable for the type otherwise. i also find this argument pretty ironic considering you yourself wrote a post debunking this argument last year. the reason ice has such a high winrate is that kyurem (and arctozolt too) artificially boosts the type's effectiveness against every neutral matchup, and especially flying.

here's my thoughts on kyurem according to the tiering philosophy:
1) broken - "These also include elements whose only counters or checks are extraordinarily niche Pokemon that would put the team at a large disadvantage elsewhere."
i don't think the "not using this mon will put your team at a disadvantage" part of the definition applies (and it applies very rarely in monotype because of the nature of the tier meaning that each pokemon can only fit on a maximum of two types), but this section of the definition in particular applies pretty clearly. i'd say water is a pretty good example of this. water teams using walrein, an otherwise godawful mon that you would never want against something that's not dragon or ice, as the only means to consistently check kyurem seems to be the textbook definition of this occuring. to have decent matchups against dragon or ice otherwise, water teams are forced into really awkward compositions of sash cloyster + slowking + scarf urshifu-r + defog volcanion which is really constraining on teambuilding, and it again puts you at a disadvantage if ur playing something that doesn't struggle against these mons as much like flying or poison. the celesteela / gapdos example i talked about earlier is another example for flying, that composition will feel good if you're against a kyurem but feels pretty disadvantageous if u play steel, poison, or psychic.

2) uncompetitive - "Uncompetitive - elements that reduce the effect of player choice / interaction on the end result to an extreme degree, such that "more skillful play" is almost always rendered irrelevant."
there is also an uncompetitive aspect to kyurem that stems from its brokenness. the facts that types weak to it solely rely on 1/2 mons to switch into it means that the mon is often one freeze away from winning the game. and you can't really slippery slope your way out of this one either, i'm not insinuating that any pokemon with a freezing move is uncompetitive. again, kyurem is the only one of those applicable that it can legitimately win a game on its own with a freeze because of its lack of solid checks limiting its counterplay. there are numerous tournament games illustrating this happening.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-596583 (mono invitational. correct play -> go to corv on kyurem. gets frozen and instantly loses the game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-596833 (mono invitational. correct play -> go to celesteela on kyurem. gets frozen and instantly loses the game)
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/smogtours-gen8monotype-597974 (mwp. correct play -> go to corv on kyurem. gets frozen and loses the game, slower this time.)
these are just the ones i thought of at the top of my head but there might be more, not sure. i know the key is that the skillful play isn't "almost always" being rendered irrelevant, it doesn't happen enough for that to be the case. i'm just saying that there is an uncompetitive aspect present that feeds into kyurem's brokenness, although it wouldn't be enough to ban the most just on its own if it wasn't already broken.

there is also a problem with using just mwp as a monolith for a pokemon's brokenness. if you're going to say that people advocating for a kyurem ban is just another case of "zapdos syndrome", then you're ignoring the cornerstone of the syndrome that you outlined earlier - that it was just "a kneejerk reaction to a strong threat". kyurem didn't dominate mwp like specs zapdos dominated mwcop, and that's why this isn't a kneejerk reaction, but a response to a mon that has consistently been an unhealthy force in the metagame for a while, even if there has only been an outspoken response to it recently. there just isn't any basis in saying that the metagame has adapted to kyurem in a healthy way when it has had such an unpleasant influence on the metagame that players must go to such disadvantageous lengths to have a chance against it

 

[mushamu]

- Kyurem: We have talked about this Pokemon as well and also don't believe it has breached the threshold for a suspect. It did not have a very dominant MWP as Dragon did absolutely terrible in the tournament and while Ice had a good winrate it's still low amount of wins and skewed by the the fact that it drew Flying a few times.

Ice not only wins consistently against Flying but against many other types in the metagame. If you think about it, not much in the tier can actually stand up to Kyurem + 8 turns of Arctozolt. Water, Poison, Psychic, Fairy, and even some variants of Steel loses to the combination of the two; and despite not being consistent due to some insanely horrible matchups Ice does autowin against a lot. Whether or not Icy Rock is unhealthy for the tier can be decided until after Kyurem is dealt with, as Ice may not be overwhelming if Kyurem goes.

However, the only things Kyurem has done for this tier is:
- Autowin against many teams at preview
- Freeze Dry killing Water-types alongside Kyurem being especially strong is unhealthy as it restricts counterplay. It's very similar to Thousand Arrows and why Zygarde is banned in SM. Messing up a Water team with an Ice move is more or less the same as messing up a Flying team with a Ground move; the latter is why Thousand Arrows is considered uncompetitive in this tier.
- Force many luck based interactions using Freeze Dry
- Deform the metagame building wise where you're forced to run certain team structures (flying, Steel, Poison, Psychic), or otherwise unviable Pokemon (Walrein) to answer it
- Cause Ice to be unhealthily overwhelming. having nice matchups vs certain things is cool but it can literally autowin against like maybe half or more of the top types which toes the unhealthiness line. Dragon's niche can more or less be trimmed down to fishing for matchup or rng with Kyurem

Kyurem lowers the skill that is required to play a game by a significant amount thanks to what it forces. You don't need skill to click Choice Specs Freeze Dry 6-10 times against Water. It doesn't take skill to freeze a Celesteela or Corviknight and autowin the game (and it does happen a disturbing amount). When a simple Freeze Dry freeze can decide a game, whoever is the "better player" is thrown aside and luck can end up taking the game. Ideally you want to be able to cover as much as possible building wise to have as much agency in game, but certain (top) types are restricted to certain team structures and Pokemon in order to not lose to it. Having to run Walrein so that Water, an otherwise amazing type, doesn't lose to Kyurem because Freeze Dry cannot be prepared through by natural means is absurd because Water has to play with 5 Pokemon in a vast majority of matchups thanks to Walrein being used for Kyurem and Kyurem only. I could go on and on about why this Pokemon is unhealthy for Monotype, but the bottom line is that there is literally nothing that makes Kyurem worth keeping in the tier. It doesn't matter how much Ice or Dragon wins in tournament games when Kyurem's effect on the metagame goes way beyond that, and at the same time it's existed for such a long time that it should be evident that the metagame isn't going to adapt to it well anytime soon. It's safe to say that Kyurem has held the metagame in its palm for a while now. Felines's post had very good points and I'm mainly echoing his statements, but yeah Kyurem needs to go.

 

[Azick]

My two cents after getting into the meta for a few months:
- Kyurem is perfectly healthy; without it ice becomes near unusable and nothing on dragon is forming a strong enough core with it to make it broken. It can be annoying but there's checks on every type and it can be played around. Even helps give dragon a chance against fairy along with dragalage.
- Goltres is simply too threatening and unhealthy for the metagame being supported by two of the best types in the current meta. A well-played goltres with support from the defensive cores on flying/dark allow it to be supported to the point where you spend your entire match just ensuring you aren't put into the position where it wreaks havoc, regardless of the type you're playing. Goltres has checks, absolutely, and it can be played around but overall, it has such variability that it makes it so incredibly difficult to be confidently playing around it. I remember one game I specifically thought was in the bag and then the already set up goltres at like 20 used rest and I got ran through before I knew about the set. It has excellent bulk, speed, attack, a threatening ability, and multiple scary sets. There is no other Pokmon I can think of unless it is type specific (Ex. Melmetal vs Fairy) where I am so hyper-focused the entire game on nothing but ensuring Goltres is not put into a position to sweep. Even in that case the worst being when you do outplay and then one fiery wrath flinch changes the tide of the game. You could be playing a much better game and get caught by a goltres setup into a single fiery wrath flinch with your check and you either just lose or you lost something that was needed for the rest of the team. I know I've personally learned to play around it to an extent, and it can be done, but there is simply no Pokémon that so consistently breaks teams and forces you to hyper-focus on stopping a setup, specifically in non-type-based matchups. I believe it should be suspected.

 

[Dead by Daylight]

Sorry I couldn't finish my previous post, but here are my thoughts on the Kyurem/G-Moltres debate

To echo Azick's point, Kyurem doesn't have a good amount of synergy on Dragon. However, that's not the problem. Specs Freeze-Dry invalidates a good check to Ice in Water, while Draco Meteor dents even resists. Earth Power also stops Steel a bit short of a sweep. Actually, Freeze-Dry 2HKO's normal Toxapex (Water) sets, obliterates Urshifu-Rapid-Strike (a threat to Ice), and 2HKO's Slowking. Yikes.

While I don't like facing off against this monster, I don't think it should be banned. It is threatening, yes, but it requires screens to support it. Also, if you can kill it before it boosts, it's...well, dead.

 

[Neko]

Kyurem is a pretty fat mon that punishes passive teams. Although the last sentence is pretty much a huge generalization, SubRoost Kyurem simply cannot be the cancer it is if not given free turns. That being said, Kyurem has checks, at least in the types where Freeze-Dry is relevant.​

Type​	Sub-Roost​	Specs​	Dragon Dance​
Water​	will not get 2HKO'ed, can use FSight, Teleport to bring in or Choice Scarf . For Rainy teams, or can be sent in from Slowking's Tport, putting Dragon / Ice in a not good position​	unfortunately dies, but this means its chippable by rocks, so or Choice Scarf will be able to revenge kill it.​	It won't beat Water with a DD set.​
Ground​	Thick Fat can shrug off its attacks and potentially revenge kill it with Icicle Spear. Icicle Crash similarly cannot be PP stalled, and puts Dragon in a very bad situation. also outspeeds Kyurem, and it can Scale Shot / Outrage to murder this frozen Chicken. Choice Band on Sand Teams can also threaten Kyurem with Rock Blast :D​	No one bears Choice Specs anything against Kyurem here. Its chippable with Stealth Rock now, and Dragon / Ice doesn't have the best hazard removal so :>​	....You could phaze it with , pressures it hard enough, and still outspeeds it, but the increased bulk means someone could die even though this Kyurem hasn't setup yet Iron Defense in Sandless teams also check it​
Flying​	Unfortunately non Double STAB , mono-attacking move will get PP stalled by it, but you have to pressure this thing so it doesn't come in for free. Also some variants of are so lucidriously thic that they actually setup on it???​	Nah you can't switch into it. Thats kinda the point. Ice Beam will 2HKO , You could scout by offering up , but SubRoost Freeze Dry kills it. Use your offensive pressure for this. Its chippable by rocks, though.​	This set was meant to snipe flying. Is it any different from ID-Body Press Kommo-o for Steel or BU Gravity Lando-T for Poison / Steel?​
Poison	Infiltrator Toxic scares Kyurem. If you don't like it + PP stalls him pretty hard. can also live Earth Power and use Pain Split next turn to remain healthy, but thats pretty situational​	is one of the few walls not 2HKO'ed by Kyurem, so you could scout what move its going to use. Also are now faster than this and ...yea...​	Infiltrator Toxic + You need that Toxic because Kyurem actually PP stalls Toxapex here.​

Most of the checks Kyurem currently has are not only meant for Kyurem, they can be used for other stuff, helps Water-teams dismantle Poison easier and helps a bit in Electric matchups, aside from being a good special wall, will still be used because its amazing for like any matchup against Ground, still has use due to Infiltrator Toxic being very good, while , aside from being a ridiculous wall, also eases the Steel matchups alongside Nidoking. will still be an excellent mon for Flying-teams because of its good speed tier + STAB combination. Kyurem is kinda like Mamoswine or Nidoking, where its presence makes you rethink what lead you should have, because it will claim a mon if you don't. Also, most sets are checked by the same mons....

On , Its really broken, its too Fat, Snowballs easily, and Dark STAB is just too spammable. Taunt removes defensive counterplay, it usually cannot die in one hit, Agility sets can be teched to hit certain benchmarks (depending on what ur sniping). It also doesn't help that Dark and Flying are pretty much the top types here ;w;

 

[Rinda]

Kyurem is a pretty fat mon that punishes passive teams. Although the last sentence is pretty much a huge generalization, SubRoost Kyurem simply cannot be the cancer it is if not given free turns. That being said, Kyurem has checks, at least in the types where Freeze-Dry is relevant.​

Type​	Sub-Roost​	Specs​	Dragon Dance​
Water​	will not get 2HKO'ed, can use FSight, Teleport to bring in or Choice Scarf . For Rainy teams, or can be sent in from Slowking's Tport, putting Dragon / Ice in a not good position​	unfortunately dies, but this means its chippable by rocks, so or Choice Scarf will be able to revenge kill it.​	It won't beat Water with a DD set.​
Ground​	Thick Fat can shrug off its attacks and potentially revenge kill it with Icicle Spear. Icicle Crash similarly cannot be PP stalled, and puts Dragon in a very bad situation. also outspeeds Kyurem, and it can Scale Shot / Outrage to murder this frozen Chicken. Choice Band on Sand Teams can also threaten Kyurem with Rock Blast :D​	No one bears Choice Specs anything against Kyurem here. Its chippable with Stealth Rock now, and Dragon / Ice doesn't have the best hazard removal so :>​	....You could phaze it with , pressures it hard enough, and still outspeeds it, but the increased bulk means someone could die even though this Kyurem hasn't setup yet Iron Defense in Sandless teams also check it​
Flying​	Unfortunately non Double STAB , mono-attacking move will get PP stalled by it, but you have to pressure this thing so it doesn't come in for free. Also some variants of are so lucidriously thic that they actually setup on it???​	Nah you can't switch into it. Thats kinda the point. Ice Beam will 2HKO , You could scout by offering up , but SubRoost Freeze Dry kills it. Use your offensive pressure for this. Its chippable by rocks, though.​	This set was meant to snipe flying. Is it any different from ID-Body Press Kommo-o for Steel or BU Gravity Lando-T for Poison / Steel?​
Poison	Infiltrator Toxic scares Kyurem. If you don't like it + PP stalls him pretty hard. can also live Earth Power and use Pain Split next turn to remain healthy, but thats pretty situational​	is one of the few walls not 2HKO'ed by Kyurem, so you could scout what move its going to use. Also are now faster than this and ...yea...​	Infiltrator Toxic + You need that Toxic because Kyurem actually PP stalls Toxapex here.​

Most of the checks Kyurem currently has are not only meant for Kyurem, they can be used for other stuff, helps Water-teams dismantle Poison easier and helps a bit in Electric matchups, aside from being a good special wall, will still be used because its amazing for like any matchup against Ground, still has use due to Infiltrator Toxic being very good, while , aside from being a ridiculous wall, also eases the Steel matchups alongside Nidoking. will still be an excellent mon for Flying-teams because of its good speed tier + STAB combination. Kyurem is kinda like Mamoswine or Nidoking, where its presence makes you rethink what lead you should have, because it will claim a mon if you don't. Also, most sets are checked by the same mons....

On , Its really broken, its too Fat, Snowballs easily, and Dark STAB is just too spammable. Taunt removes defensive counterplay, it usually cannot die in one hit, Agility sets can be teched to hit certain benchmarks (depending on what ur sniping). It also doesn't help that Dark and Flying are pretty much the top types here ;w;

Honestly while reading your table I couldn't say whether you conclusion was going to be that kyurem is checkable or not. Even with that, I disagree with most of the checks you gave :

On water : pivoting defensively with slowking means you assume you don't get frozen on like 3 freeze dry every times it comes, then with tp you bring something like scarf shifu/band barraskewda/scarf fini, which means that you have to win the 50 50 everytime because dragon has answers to these with dragapult/dragalge or can just sack anything as kyurem is almost all you need in this match up. You also didn't mention chople kyurem who lives anything from the 2 physical attackers. About the specs set, yes it is weakened by rocks, rocks being placed by swampertwho takes something like 150% from freeze dry.

On ground : Icicle crash mamo is not a solid answer to sub kyu as it doesn't 2hko after the sub (25%+61%-72%), has 20% chance to miss over the two hits, and dies from 2 earth power + freeze dry. Being forced to rely on moves like scale shot/icicle spear/rock blast only for kyu (and goltres) shows how restrictive the pokemon is.

On fly : I think we don't need to talk about celes/corvi "anti-kyurem sets" being frozen one more time.

On poison : It's almost the same thing as water, pivoting defensively can't be considered as a reliable answer when freeze dry has 32pp, 10% chance to freeze, earth power has 16pp, 10% chance to drop SpD, and crits are a thing. Crobat's presence is the metagame is only due to kyurem and goltres and running it means it takes the slot of weezing/nido/nihi what means you sacrifice some match ups.

You could also add elec to the list of the types deleted by kyurem, with freeze dry/earth power being super effective on 100% of the team. But maybe it's time to start using rotom heat ?

 

[Neko]

Water: pivoting defensively with slowking means you assume you don't get frozen on like 3 freeze dry every times it comes

Water has access to Misty Terrain and you only have approximately 27.1% chance of getting frozen by 3 Freeze Dries in a row, which is somehow less than Scald burns. Also, if Freeze is the thing that's broken, shouldn't Freeze be looked at?

scarf shifu/band barraskewda/scarf fini

Except 50/50's are a part of using those mons. In Steel matchups Ferrothorn vs Urshifu is always a 50/50, Barraskewda has to pick between Psychic Fangs/Water move in the Poison matchup,etc.

chople kyurem

Isn't this just prep then? It's bound to be useless against some other matchups, so if they specifically wanted to target Water, then props to them

On Ground, I really can't defend this, but aside from Gastrodon, Hippowdon, Kyurem cannot cancer vs any other mon in Ground, meaning it should be checked offensively (Ground is fortunately fast enough)

I think we don't need to talk about celes/corvi "anti-kyurem sets" being frozen one more time.

I tell you Freeze is the issue :D Though, PP Stalling Freeze Dry (Double STAB sets) will still unlikely (~40.95% ) roll a freeze (Thats approximately 5 turns of BP->BP->Roost->BP->BP I think?)

On Poison:

pivoting defensively can't be considered as a reliable answer when freeze dry has 32pp, 10% chance to freeze, earth power has 16pp, 10% chance to drop SpD, and crits are a thing.

...Toxapex and Glowking have Scald, so uh yea pretty much the type that has the least issue to freeze if ever

Crobat's presence is the metagame is only due to kyurem and goltres

Except you also need Infil Toxic for annoying Sub users like Hydreigon, Landorus-T. Access to Taunt also makes them a bit easier to deal with.

Also for Elec, Kyurem can't come in on anyone except Rotom-W, as Specs Tapu Koko, Specs Zapdos, Band Zeraora, and Alolan-Raichu all outspeed and threaten Kyuterem. Rotom-H won't even work because overheat drops SpA

 

[wkxkevin]

I tell you Freeze is the issue :D Though, PP Stalling Freeze Dry (Double STAB sets) will still unlikely (~40.95% ) roll a freeze (Thats approximately 5 turns of BP->BP->Roost->BP->BP I think?)

Where on ****ing earth did you get this calc?
The chance of not being frozen is 0.9. Assuming pressure, that's 16 uses. the chance of not being frozen is 0.9^16 which is 0.1853 or 18.53%. With 32 pp, it rises to 0.0343 or 3.43%. The likelihood of not getting a freeze for all the pp is somewhere in between 3 to 18 percent because the pokemon kyurem attacks is not always corvi. With celesteela, don't even think about it.

 

[Neko]

Where on ****ing earth did you get this calc?
The chance of not being frozen is 0.9. Assuming pressure, that's 16 uses. the chance of not being frozen is 0.9^16 which is 0.1853 or 18.53%. With 32 pp, it rises to 0.0343 or 3.43%. The likelihood of not getting a freeze for all the pp is somewhere in between 3 to 18 percent because the pokemon kyurem attacks is not always corvi. With celesteela, don't even think about it.

Kyurem won't be able to use all 16 instances of Freeze Dry, as Celes/Corv dies to 3-4 Freeze Dries (assuming Corv doesn't Roost). Similarly, a Kyurem harassed by Celes/Corv has to use Roost (or Sub) and cannot click Freeze Dry all the time.