I dont think OU zamazenta is a good idea for the same reasons its not a good idea to unban Giratina, its a insanely strong legendary that gives defensive teams enough offense to shit on the entire metagame, and both together? uf man
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Metagame [SPOILERS] Scarlet & Violet OU Discussion [BAN LIST POST 626]
- Thread starter ironwater
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Cool thing to note:
Rain retains a lot of the powerful pokemon from previous generations:
and this generation also returns 
since battle bond is coming back. Basculegion is also a new swift swimmer, but I’m not sure if it projects to be better than Skewda. Consider the following: 
will also likely be legal to start the generation. Tera will allow other pokemon to achieve water type stab in the rain (i.e. 
throwing off stab rain scalds and thunders, just food for thought). I can absolutely see this archetype gaining a lot of mileage in the first few weeks/months of the tier!
Rain retains a lot of the powerful pokemon from previous generations:
and this generation also returns since battle bond is coming back. Basculegion is also a new swift swimmer, but I’m not sure if it projects to be better than Skewda. Consider the following: will also likely be legal to start the generation. Tera will allow other pokemon to achieve water type stab in the rain (i.e. throwing off stab rain scalds and thunders, just food for thought). I can absolutely see this archetype gaining a lot of mileage in the first few weeks/months of the tier!
Offensive Mons that check Zamazenta Crowned in OU (no point in putting defensive ones, since there are too many, the style that Zamazenta can break is offense, not balance or Stall).
Skeledirge: As already posted yesterday, 252 HP, 0 Defense Skeledirge takes this:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 180-214 (43.7 - 52%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO < Other moves are resisisted even better.
Volcarona: This is 0 investment one:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 131-155 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Zamazenta can,t even attack reliable, since Flame Body is a thing. Bulkier Volcarona versions are even better, the moth lost Roost, but not Morning Sun.
Zapdos:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO < This is the only move Zamazenta has for it. It does 2HKO, but comes at the price of not having both STABs, Crunch, Wild Charge or Howl. Static is also a thing and Zapdos learns Heat Wave.
Sun in general. Torkoal is not an offensive Mon, but supports many of them that obviously smash Zamazenta with Fire moves. Torkoal itself easily switches into Zamazenta to do whatever it wants.
Goldengo:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 172-204 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery < I expect Max HP Goldengo + Recover to be common in offensive teams. Crunch is the only move Zamazenta can use vs him, rest are walled. Zamazenta can use Howl to break through Goldengo, but that comes at the price of not having Wild Charge or Ice Fang for other Mons.
Great Tusk:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 147-174 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < 0 investment Great Tusk can switch at least once.
Iron Hands:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 174-205 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Can switch at least once with 0 investment. This Mon is slow, so it won,t invest in speed, meaning that it will have some investment in either HP or Defense.
These are just offensive (Stall and Balance get way more options) Mons that switch into Zamazenta and can check it. Zamazenta is supposed to be a Mon that switches into offensive threats and checks them with high offensive power, bulk and speed, however its very hard for him to actually do that, since the meta is extremely offensive and Hazard centered, which are extremely hard to remove (and Zamazenta Crowned can,t run Boots).
My opinion is that not only Zamazenta Crowned doesn,t break the Meta, similar cases can be said about Zamazenta Hero and Giratina-A, though this is all theorymoning, since the we are not getting neither of these Mons before Home and by then Meta can change a lot (and some Moves added).
Skeledirge: As already posted yesterday, 252 HP, 0 Defense Skeledirge takes this:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Chandelure: 180-214 (43.7 - 52%) -- 11.7% chance to 2HKO < Other moves are resisisted even better.
Volcarona: This is 0 investment one:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcarona: 131-155 (42.1 - 49.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Zamazenta can,t even attack reliable, since Flame Body is a thing. Bulkier Volcarona versions are even better, the moth lost Roost, but not Morning Sun.
Zapdos:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Ice Fang vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zapdos: 154-182 (47.9 - 56.6%) -- 85.5% chance to 2HKO < This is the only move Zamazenta has for it. It does 2HKO, but comes at the price of not having both STABs, Crunch, Wild Charge or Howl. Static is also a thing and Zapdos learns Heat Wave.
Sun in general. Torkoal is not an offensive Mon, but supports many of them that obviously smash Zamazenta with Fire moves. Torkoal itself easily switches into Zamazenta to do whatever it wants.
Goldengo:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Both: 172-204 (45.5 - 53.9%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery < I expect Max HP Goldengo + Recover to be common in offensive teams. Crunch is the only move Zamazenta can use vs him, rest are walled. Zamazenta can use Howl to break through Goldengo, but that comes at the price of not having Wild Charge or Ice Fang for other Mons.
Great Tusk:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Donphan: 147-174 (39.6 - 46.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < 0 investment Great Tusk can switch at least once.
Iron Hands:
252 Atk Zamazenta-Crowned Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Hariyama: 174-205 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO < Can switch at least once with 0 investment. This Mon is slow, so it won,t invest in speed, meaning that it will have some investment in either HP or Defense.
These are just offensive (Stall and Balance get way more options) Mons that switch into Zamazenta and can check it. Zamazenta is supposed to be a Mon that switches into offensive threats and checks them with high offensive power, bulk and speed, however its very hard for him to actually do that, since the meta is extremely offensive and Hazard centered, which are extremely hard to remove (and Zamazenta Crowned can,t run Boots).
My opinion is that not only Zamazenta Crowned doesn,t break the Meta, similar cases can be said about Zamazenta Hero and Giratina-A, though this is all theorymoning, since the we are not getting neither of these Mons before Home and by then Meta can change a lot (and some Moves added).
Zamazenta gets Iron Defense + Body Press this gen
zamazenta actually gets stone edge now, which compresses coverage for skeledirge, zapdos, and volcarona in one slot pretty easily. i could see zamazenta being fair in ou now after powercreep + reduced power and bulk but i'm not sure if he'd be a good addition. seems like he'd just be yet another threat in a meta with a ton of those and potentially a headache to deal with because his bulk is still gigantic. if he was an actual proper defensive mon i think he would be a great addition to the meta
Oh, didn,t realize that it got SE too. Still, its an offensive threat that predates on other offensive threats, Balance and Stall do hand Zamazenta pretty well, so I think in a offensive Meta the addition would be positive.
Yes but it has no recovery, after it gets force dout it is significantly less bulky and it is noticable
I mean, with the low recovery pp we have its not that much of a difference anyway but thats a tecnicallity on the grand scheme of things
it also its inmune to sand and quad resist to SR, and since Defoggers are on low offert, and also Wish is still on the game, so you can slap some mon with Wish and has easy entry with bulk and those qualitys, and what if he cant break balance, you have like 5 teammates. Giratina is even worse because he can stall those recover pps with preasure btw, blocks rapid spin and has WoW,, im just not convinced
Recover isn,t affected by Pressure. I will speak about Giratina when the right time comes, but I do think it won,t be broken in OU thig Gen, like Zamazenta.
wait really? i didnt know that lmao my b, i think they are gonna be broken together, one of them would go
In addition, it seems likely that King’s Rock will remain on the banlist as we carry over into the new generation.
I was looking into datamine thread to search the pokemon that made it, but instead found a new item called Punching Glove, and it says "boost the power of punching moves and prevents direct contact with damage" do we have anything with Iron Fist that made it into the game? you just know the are gonna see some boxing teams popping up, i also will use this with drain punch on my future Breloom and Chesnaugh teams for the memes
Zama bulk is absolutely not gigantic, given it has no recovery moves, no leftover or heavy duty boots (almost every mon gets Spike this gen), and its ability is completely useless after switching out. 120 base attack isn't that impressive without Life Orb/Band.
Given the massive power creep, Zama-C will be decent at best in OU, if not mid. Mons like Iron Hand have higher bulk than Zama, as well as better base attack (which get increased massively in electric terrain) and can hold item. Its movepool is much better than Zama too, funny enough. And Iron Hands is just a standard OU mon this gen.
Iron Hands - 154/140/108/50/68/50 (Quark Drive)
Available moves - Swords Dance, Close Combat, Earthquake, Drain Punch, Belly Drum, Substitute, Stone Edge, Facade, Volt Switch, Iron Defense, Body Press, Fire Punch, Ice Punch, Thunder Punch
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I'm a little tired of people saying 'oh man every defensive mon sucks in OU now :(' without even taking a moment to consider what they'd be running now that they've lost so many valuable utility moves. Sure, some will be harder to justify (like Slowbro), but others were not nerfed as badly as yall seem to think.
Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Poison Jab / Liquidation
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic / Baneful Bunker
- Recover
Finally, Pex is as passive as it always should have been. No way of dealing meaningful damage to Toxic immunes, meaning mons like Glowking, Heatran, and Iron Treads (assuming no Liquidation) can come in on you 100% for free and do their thing uninterrupted. Now sure, that sucks, but this mon's amazing defensive typing + bulk when combined with Regen and its remaining utility moves (Haze and TSpikes are still pretty good tools) should still keep it solidly OU, especially with mons like Palafin and Quaquaval running around.
Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Body Press
- Hydro Pump / Thunder Wave / Ice Beam
- Slack Off
Sure, losing Teleport and Scald is terrible for Slowbro, but at the same time that means you can now justifiably dip a lot deeper into its patented Gen 1 movepool. Did you know this mon got Thunder Wave? Because I didn't until today. Seems like a solid utility option. Or maybe you run Ice Beam to hit incoming Zapdos and Meowskarada. The point is, the situation is once again not as dire as you may think. I've heard people saying that Slowking is probably better now but like, really? The slowtwins share the same Special Attack stat and in a meta with SD Urshifu, Quaquaval, and Palafin, I highly doubt that Slowking will surpass Slowbro (not considering Chilly Reception. That bit actually tips the scales quite a lot).
Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
Nature is healing. But yeah lol this mon is still OU. Offensive sets are great and even without as much utility, mon still gets rocks and U-Turn. Those two alone combined with its stellar defensive typing should be enough for it to pull off pivots sets fine, and that's not even considering Sandsear Storm. Overall definitely a massive change to how the mon plays, but a welcome one.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat
Ok yeah I have to admit, this mon's defensive sets have been gutted. Offensive SD still carries this thing to UU, particularly with its shiny new move in Close Combat, but you will be hard-pressed to make defensive sets work up there in such an offensive metagame.
But by far the worst loss of all... The mon most hurt by these movepool removals... Is one I've seen almost no discussion on. A mon that at one point was so good as to be OU, now most likely dropping down to the depths of NU from just one generation's worth of changes...
Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Wish
- Protect
- Safeguard / Ice Beam / Healing Wish / Chilling Water / Aqua Jet? / Whirlpool?? / Soak???
What does this mon run now lmfaoooo. Didn't get Flip Turn, lost literally every move from its standard set besides Wish. It's really really bad. This mon literally does not have a 4th move whatsoever. Safeguard is about as good as it gets; status immunity can be pretty cool on the right teams, and generally it can actually do things, but even still this mon is a shadow of a shadow of its former self. Regen Wishpassing is good, don't get me wrong, but when it's literally all you have you're not going to get very far
So yeah. Definitely a massive change to the meta as a whole, but mainly through new set variety as opposed to new mons. Some other mons I didn't mention like Zapdos and Torn-T should still comfortably sit in OU by virtue of offensive sets, which makes sense but is also terrifying, since there are no new defensive mons to take their place. This generation is going to be an interesting one, and I can only hope that it will end well.
edit: also stop saying giratina should be OU lmaoo. mon's got the same spatk stat as pult. it is nowhere near balanced
Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Poison Jab / Liquidation
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic / Baneful Bunker
- Recover
Finally, Pex is as passive as it always should have been. No way of dealing meaningful damage to Toxic immunes, meaning mons like Glowking, Heatran, and Iron Treads (assuming no Liquidation) can come in on you 100% for free and do their thing uninterrupted. Now sure, that sucks, but this mon's amazing defensive typing + bulk when combined with Regen and its remaining utility moves (Haze and TSpikes are still pretty good tools) should still keep it solidly OU, especially with mons like Palafin and Quaquaval running around.
Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Body Press
- Hydro Pump / Thunder Wave / Ice Beam
- Slack Off
Sure, losing Teleport and Scald is terrible for Slowbro, but at the same time that means you can now justifiably dip a lot deeper into its patented Gen 1 movepool. Did you know this mon got Thunder Wave? Because I didn't until today. Seems like a solid utility option. Or maybe you run Ice Beam to hit incoming Zapdos and Meowskarada. The point is, the situation is once again not as dire as you may think. I've heard people saying that Slowking is probably better now but like, really? The slowtwins share the same Special Attack stat and in a meta with SD Urshifu, Quaquaval, and Palafin, I highly doubt that Slowking will surpass Slowbro (not considering Chilly Reception. That bit actually tips the scales quite a lot).
Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
Nature is healing. But yeah lol this mon is still OU. Offensive sets are great and even without as much utility, mon still gets rocks and U-Turn. Those two alone combined with its stellar defensive typing should be enough for it to pull off pivots sets fine, and that's not even considering Sandsear Storm. Overall definitely a massive change to how the mon plays, but a welcome one.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat
Ok yeah I have to admit, this mon's defensive sets have been gutted. Offensive SD still carries this thing to UU, particularly with its shiny new move in Close Combat, but you will be hard-pressed to make defensive sets work up there in such an offensive metagame.
But by far the worst loss of all... The mon most hurt by these movepool removals... Is one I've seen almost no discussion on. A mon that at one point was so good as to be OU, now most likely dropping down to the depths of NU from just one generation's worth of changes...
Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Wish
- Protect
- Safeguard / Ice Beam / Healing Wish / Chilling Water / Aqua Jet? / Whirlpool?? / Soak???
What does this mon run now lmfaoooo. Didn't get Flip Turn, lost literally every move from its standard set besides Wish. It's really really bad. This mon literally does not have a 4th move whatsoever. Safeguard is about as good as it gets; status immunity can be pretty cool on the right teams, and generally it can actually do things, but even still this mon is a shadow of a shadow of its former self. Regen Wishpassing is good, don't get me wrong, but when it's literally all you have you're not going to get very far
So yeah. Definitely a massive change to the meta as a whole, but mainly through new set variety as opposed to new mons. Some other mons I didn't mention like Zapdos and Torn-T should still comfortably sit in OU by virtue of offensive sets, which makes sense but is also terrifying, since there are no new defensive mons to take their place. This generation is going to be an interesting one, and I can only hope that it will end well.
edit: also stop saying giratina should be OU lmaoo. mon's got the same spatk stat as pult. it is nowhere near balanced
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chien-Pao: 676-801 (224.5 - 266.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO*
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 338-400 (134.6 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 252-299 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 374-439 (106.5 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 420-495 (167.3 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 285-339 (98.6 - 117.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 208-247 (55 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
*252 Atk Chien Pao Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 222-264 (85 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Even if Sword of Ruin is a full -1, Chien-Pao doesn't get the guaranteed KO with Ice Shard without setup/band/lo
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Chi-Yu: 338-400 (134.6 - 159.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Bundle: 252-299 (99.6 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Roaring Moon: 374-439 (106.5 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Flutter Mane: 420-495 (167.3 - 197.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Valiant: 285-339 (98.6 - 117.3%) -- approx. 93.8% chance to OHKO
252+ Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bulldoze vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 208-247 (55 - 65.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
*252 Atk Chien Pao Ice Shard vs. -1 0 HP / 4 Def Breloom: 222-264 (85 - 101.1%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Even if Sword of Ruin is a full -1, Chien-Pao doesn't get the guaranteed KO with Ice Shard without setup/band/lo
Assuming Technician is available, Breloom checks virtually all of the "broken" `mons that have come up on its own. Obliterates all of the Ice and/or Dark types if they stay in. If a switch is predicted, Breloom can either click Bullet Seed to try for a KO or take a guess between Bulldoze and Rock Tomb to nab a speed drop (either advantaging the team or possibly setting up a KO the next turn).
Priority in general is looking really, really strong against a lot of the new top threats. Scizor, Lycanroc (if Dusk form is available pre-Home) and even Pawnmot also have great matchups against a bunch of the new scary `mons while providing solid overall utility. Lucario can even run weird mixed sets with Bullet Punch + Vacuum Wave + Work Up, though that's obviously some meme ish.
In any case, at least on paper, there are lot of possible answers for some of the scary new `mons (due to a combination of shared types/weaknesses, general frailty, and the way hazards are gonna run rampant through this meta). When folks are proposing banning >10 'mons/moves/mechanics right off the bat, it sounds like you're trying to protect the status quo rather than exploring an unknown meta. Like, I have no doubt that there are some things here that are busted to hell (because Gamefreak), but there's a big difference between banning things to enable healthy diversity and banning things to ensure that "OU" remains what we're used to "OU" looking like.
The SV meta is going to be more offense-oriented. It's just what it is. (American) Football and Basketball have been doing this for decades. It's Pokemon's turn. They tried it with Dynamax and went waaay too far. They're taking a broader approach now through a combination of a bunch of new powerhouse `mons, nerfs to recovery PP and scald availability, expansion of hazards, and the addition and Teratypes. Maybe Teratypes will be broken too, maybe they won't be, but claiming they are just because they make offense stronger is missing the boat. Less-offensive playstyles are going to be at a disadvantage no matter what, unless Smogon becomes a parody of itself and just takes a cleaver to the game. That'll give some people feelings, but we should at least try playing/investigating the meta we've got, not the meta we wish it were -- and I'm honestly excited by the *variety* of offensive team comps that are looking pretty powerful, in part because they can be spearheaded by some sick new `mons.
Let's all get ready to beat the snot out of each other in some tense, 20 turn battles.
I mean its understandable but we are mainly doing fanfic headcannon, even tho yes, some things are trully wrong and maybe we are exagerating on others, especulation and headcannons always happen, remember dinamax? oh man that was something, besides, if you ended up being right, you can always screenshot the thread and say told you guys
Also people are catching up to my Breloom/Chesnaugh propaganda oh god oh fuck
Either water pulse or surf, if those moves are still in its movepool for alolomolaI'm a little tired of people saying 'oh man every defensive mon sucks in OU now :(' without even taking a moment to consider what they'd be running now that they've lost so many valuable utility moves. Sure, some will be harder to justify (like Slowbro), but others were not nerfed as badly as yall seem to think.
Toxapex @ Black Sludge / Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Def
Impish Nature
- Poison Jab / Liquidation
- Haze
- Toxic Spikes / Toxic / Baneful Bunker
- Recover
Finally, Pex is as passive as it always should have been. No way of dealing meaningful damage to Toxic immunes, meaning mons like Glowking, Heatran, and Iron Treads (assuming no Liquidation) can come in on you 100% for free and do their thing uninterrupted. Now sure, that sucks, but this mon's amazing defensive typing + bulk when combined with Regen and its remaining utility moves (Haze and TSpikes are still pretty good tools) should still keep it solidly OU, especially with mons like Palafin and Quaquaval running around.
Slowbro @ Colbur Berry / Heavy-Duty Boots / Leftovers
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Future Sight
- Body Press
- Hydro Pump / Thunder Wave / Ice Beam
- Slack Off
Sure, losing Teleport and Scald is terrible for Slowbro, but at the same time that means you can now justifiably dip a lot deeper into its patented Gen 1 movepool. Did you know this mon got Thunder Wave? Because I didn't until today. Seems like a solid utility option. Or maybe you run Ice Beam to hit incoming Zapdos and Meowskarada. The point is, the situation is once again not as dire as you may think. I've heard people saying that Slowking is probably better now but like, really? The slowtwins share the same Special Attack stat and in a meta with SD Urshifu, Quaquaval, and Palafin, I highly doubt that Slowking will surpass Slowbro (not considering Chilly Reception. That bit actually tips the scales quite a lot).
Landorus-Therian @ Leftovers
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Swords Dance
- Earthquake
- Stone Edge
- Substitute
Nature is healing. But yeah lol this mon is still OU. Offensive sets are great and even without as much utility, mon still gets rocks and U-Turn. Those two alone combined with its stellar defensive typing should be enough for it to pull off pivots sets fine, and that's not even considering Sandsear Storm. Overall definitely a massive change to how the mon plays, but a welcome one.
Scizor @ Life Orb
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Close Combat
- Dual Wingbeat
Ok yeah I have to admit, this mon's defensive sets have been gutted. Offensive SD still carries this thing to UU, particularly with its shiny new move in Close Combat, but you will be hard-pressed to make defensive sets work up there in such an offensive metagame.
But by far the worst loss of all... The mon most hurt by these movepool removals... Is one I've seen almost no discussion on. A mon that at one point was so good as to be OU, now most likely dropping down to the depths of NU from just one generation's worth of changes...
Alomomola @ Rocky Helmet
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 40 HP / 216 Def / 252 SpD
Impish Nature
- Liquidation
- Wish
- Protect
- Safeguard / Ice Beam / Healing Wish / Chilling Water / Aqua Jet? / Whirlpool?? / Soak???
What does this mon run now lmfaoooo. Didn't get Flip Turn, lost literally every move from its standard set besides Wish. It's really really bad. This mon literally does not have a 4th move whatsoever. Safeguard is about as good as it gets; status immunity can be pretty cool on the right teams, and generally it can actually do things, but even still this mon is a shadow of a shadow of its former self. Regen Wishpassing is good, don't get me wrong, but when it's literally all you have you're not going to get very far
So yeah. Definitely a massive change to the meta as a whole, but mainly through new set variety as opposed to new mons. Some other mons I didn't mention like Zapdos and Torn-T should still comfortably sit in OU by virtue of offensive sets, which makes sense but is also terrifying, since there are no new defensive mons to take their place. This generation is going to be an interesting one, and I can only hope that it will end well.
edit: also stop saying giratina should be OU lmaoo. mon's got the same spatk stat as pult. it is nowhere near balanced
I have a feeling a lot of old OU is gonna be moving to UU with this new power creep
Almost certainly not someone to give a great opinion on this seeing as I haven't really played competitive pokemon since the start of Gen 5 but this is definitely the feeling I'm getting as I lurk a bunch of other threads. I'm just wondering why people want to aim for the same power level of an existing previous meta out of the gate instead of seeing just how insane all the new broken stuff is on practice. Then again I'm definitely in the minority on this
and probably shouldn't have any consideration given to my opinion.
On an actual game-play related statement I'm honestly way more excited for Spikes Garchomp than I probably should be.
Also, how are people planning to deal with Palafin?
Palafin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Jet Punch (60 bp priority water STAB)
- Close Combat/Zen Headbutt/Drain Punch
With a scarf, it can safely pivot out to activate Hero form, and can 2HKO even the bulkiest walls with Wave Crash. Jet Punch is a decently powerful 60bp STAB water move. For coverage, it has Close Combat to break through the dark quartet and steel types, as well as Zen Headbutt for the bulky poison and fighting types (like Toxapex, Water Absorb Clodsire, and Iron Hands).
A Band might also work depending on how the meta shifts
Palafin @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Zero to Hero
EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Flip Turn
- Wave Crash
- Jet Punch (60 bp priority water STAB)
- Close Combat/Zen Headbutt/Drain Punch
With a scarf, it can safely pivot out to activate Hero form, and can 2HKO even the bulkiest walls with Wave Crash. Jet Punch is a decently powerful 60bp STAB water move. For coverage, it has Close Combat to break through the dark quartet and steel types, as well as Zen Headbutt for the bulky poison and fighting types (like Toxapex, Water Absorb Clodsire, and Iron Hands).
A Band might also work depending on how the meta shifts
Slowtwins. Same way we'll deal with the other offensive Waters. Mon is super prediction reliant even against Pex, which it supposedly beats.
Idk if that was mentionned yet, but i think tera could have interesting applications for certain bulky threats to turn the tables against offensive checks that would otherwise force them out. For example, tera-water slowking-galar might lure in and hit stuff like weavile and garchomp with super effective coverage. Melmetal could also decide to change its typing to smack with earthquake a Heatran attempting to revenge kill it. Some bulky win conditions like CM Clefable or CM Reuniclus could also be annoying by deciding to change their typing whenever they desire.
I think it might also give some flexibility to defensive cores that could adapt their typing to the opposing team. Of course, that comes at the potential cost of not running whatever broken teratype abusers running around, but i think this still could be something noteworthy.
I think it might also give some flexibility to defensive cores that could adapt their typing to the opposing team. Of course, that comes at the potential cost of not running whatever broken teratype abusers running around, but i think this still could be something noteworthy.
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John Madden
formerly j3b4it33d
Battle bond itself is apparantly different to the previous gens. Rather than changing to ash gren, battle bond just gives you a shell smash boost instead (i.e. atk, spatk and speed are +1). That being said, I can definitely see snowstorm, sun and rain being some of the most defining archetypes of the tier.Cool thing to note:
Rain retains a lot of the powerful pokemon from previous generations:
Baculegion doesn't need to be a Barraskewda clone, given it has decent bulk and Adaptability, which hits very hard, and has an incredible ghost STAB move that goes up to 300BP. It will definitely find its place
Hello friends, By request of RoiDadadou , I'm in the process of creating a more general viable move list for these Pokemon. Whilst I'm not finished yet, you can view the progress here:
https://pokepast.es/f41a011b5237c051
I've also been tasked with handling PLA movesets, so these will be added both to the paste in this post and the replied post in due time.
EDIT: This and the set list have been updated! Everything should be in place now.
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