Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

[MaroGod]

I would like to point out that you were right in the fact that I was not detailed enough, which I should be. But, that does not dismiss any of my facts,

pertaining to monferno, You asked me to explain the drop, which I will(btw, the A- was a mistake, I meant A, My bad)

It is a great poke, no doubt, but like I said earlier, it has too many checks to it too be a dominant A+ force, it gets taking out by pretty much anything faster than it, and it doesn't have the sheer power to beat some of the bulkier pokemon. Monferno is an overrated pokemon in my opinion, while you may disagree. It is a dominant force no doubt, but in my opinion, it requires too much team support and has too many checks to be an A+ pokemon

And about the stoutland, I did read the forum wrong, and I am very sorry for that, stoutland is an A+pokemon,

And about gigalith, I wasn't trying to be descriptive, I just was explaining how it has good attributes to move up, but I can describe if u want me too
Gigalith has a massive attack and defense, and has a passible special defense. This makes it a great stealth rock setter or even physical wall if u want to do that also. The reason I compared it to golemo is because they have a similar role. I'm not going to go as far as to say gigalith outclasses golem, but I will say that gigalith is worth more than the lousy unranked tier it gets. And what priority does golem have access to?

And finally, quilladin
Quilladin cant wall many water pokes, in which most carry ice beam, which is usually a 2HKO. So what real niche does quilladin have? when it has barely any offensive presence and gets outclassed by a lot of other defensive walls in the tier. Quilladin is a strong physical wall, no doubt about that, but it is easy setup fodder and quite weak if eviolite gets knocked off by knock off, which is very common in PU. I am giving it a B+ ranking which is still a good ranking no doubt , I'm just saying that in my experience it has not been useful enough to be in the A- ranking

Btw, thx for the feedback, I'm not perfect. Take care :)

Hi.

pertaining to monferno, You asked me to explain the drop, which I will(btw, the A- was a mistake, I meant A, My bad)

It is a great poke, no doubt, but like I said earlier, it has too many checks to it too be a dominant A+ force, it gets taking out by pretty much anything faster than it, and it doesn't have the sheer power to beat some of the bulkier pokemon. Monferno is an overrated pokemon in my opinion, while you may disagree. It is a dominant force no doubt, but in my opinion, it requires too much team support and has too many checks to be an A+ pokemon

Monferno is easily one off, if not the, most consistent pokemon in PU with a lot of your reasoning being very..subpar with Monferno being able to customize itself in order to get around what it wants, speed can be patched with Scarf,Flame Charge,SD+Mach Punch and while not the best or most consistent sets (besides SD) allow Monferno to patch this issue for what you want it to do.

The point on bulkier Pokemon is again easily patched with just the U-Turn set being able to give momentum and take that pokemon out with a team member or if it is a Pokemon like say Pelipper taken out with SD+Thunder punch as a lure. Monferno provides a safety net in its own right with just a standard eviolite set with SD or U-Turn due to its typing checking and countering Pokemon like Pawniard,Cacturne,Stoutland,Lapras,Regice,Grumpig,Rotom-F the list goes on an on due to exactly how effective Monferno is for the role it provides overall.

The points you mention are true but they are basically the reasons as to why Monferno is not in S rank and remains in A+ more then anything.

And what priority does golem have access to?

Sucker Punch which is staple on it's offensive sets and optional on its SpD tank set in the 4th slot.

And about gigalith, I wasn't trying to be descriptive, I just was explaining how it has good attributes to move up, but I can describe if u want me too
Gigalith has a massive attack and defense, and has a passible special defense. This makes it a great stealth rock setter or even physical wall if u want to do that also. The reason I compared it to golemo is because they have a similar role. I'm not going to go as far as to say gigalith outclasses golem, but I will say that gigalith is worth more than the lousy unranked tier it gets.

The point bolded goes for a lot of pokemon unranked however it's all determined on what competition it faces.

Gigalith has merits that in the long run aren't worth it over other offensive and defensive rockers with Golem alone honestly being enough to keep it unranked but consider other Pokemon like Stunfisk,Probopass,Gabite,Mawile,Relicanth ect ect. Its Rock-Type,Atack and Defensive stats are impressive but over the dual typing,move-pools and utility the other Stealth Rockers provide just leave using Gigalith underwhelming in the long run with something better basically always being available.

Quilladin cant wall many water pokes, in which most carry ice beam, which is usually a 2HKO. So what real niche does quilladin have? when it has barely any offensive presence and gets outclassed by a lot of other defensive walls in the tier. Quilladin is a strong physical wall, no doubt about that, but it is easy setup fodder and quite weak if eviolite gets knocked off by knock off, which is very common in PU. I am giving it a B+ ranking which is still a good ranking no doubt , I'm just saying that in my experience it has not been useful enough to be in the A- ranking

I'm just doing this one in dot points because i can

• Quilladins niche is being a physically bulky spiker which covers many relevant Pokemon (more so then roselia in most cases currently)
• There is nothing that does what Quill does so it is not outclassed but does face competition from Gourgiest-XL and Tangela as physically bulky grasses
• Quilladin always runs either Taunt or Roar so the point on being set-up fodder is near non existent
• The point on knock off is true but you should be using a knock off absorber other then Quilladin (quill being fine if the threats it walls w/o evio are gone)
• Personally i had little success with Quilladin when i first used it however that was with inexperiance after using it properly i foud it to be one of the more consistant hazard setters atm and if anything the pokemon that should drop is Roselia to A- rank

 

[pancake]

Zebstrika > Low A+

This is just a really great glue mon for offense right now. It's an electric immunity for offense, and it outspeeds almost all of the common meta, including Floatzel. It is very important to have a mon that outspeeds Floatzel in this meta. I stated before that it's a really great glue mon for offense and I'd just like to emphasize that point. I feel like a lot of offensive or balance teams end up choosing Zebstrika as a sixth mon because it's more speed, ability to check other Electrics, and wallbreaking potential. Overall, just a great mon in this meta which I feel should rise.

Roselia > A-

ShuckleDeath has tested a lot of Specs Rose with me but the standard Defensive set has been really subpar lately. It faces competition from stuff like Quilladin and it is a little bit easier to get off a Defog in a meta where Monferno (Swanna, Pelipper) and Leafeon (Vullaby) are common. It's bulk, especially on the physical side, isn't the greatest, and so it has a hard time checking stuff like the Grass-types (Leafeon, Jumpluff) in this meta.

 

[ShuckleDeath]

Roselia > A-
ShuckleDeath has tested a lot of Specs Rose with me but the standard Defensive set has been really subpar lately. It faces competition from stuff like Quilladin and it is a little bit easier to get off a Defog in a meta where Monferno (Swanna, Pelipper) and Leafeon (Vullaby) are common. It's bulk, especially on the physical side, isn't the greatest, and so it has a hard time checking stuff like the Grass-types (Leafeon, Jumpluff) in this meta.

I think I disagree with this. While it is true Roselia is not as good as it once was, I still feel it holds enough merit to remain A Rank. I have tested Choice Specs quite a bit and i do feel it is a decent set, but beyond that Roselia is a good offensive Pokemon all around. It has a great dual STAB which pressure a lot of the frail attackers of the tier and the bulk and typing to actually check and pressure a good deal of them. The defensive set I feel is better in this metagame than it was last as it counters a very new potent threat in special Cacturne. It also still checks Floatzel, Simipour, Politoed and Zebstrika quite well, and I still find it having opportunitys to stack Spikes or Toxic Spikes reliably, rather it be on one of the before mentioned Mons or some of the defensive Mons.

There are Mons gaining in popularity that do hurt Roselia like lapras, Monferno and Dodrio but I feel that it still checks enough and supports teams well enough to remain A Rank.

 

[Aaronboyer]

Zebstrika > Low A+

This is just a really great glue mon for offense right now. It's an electric immunity for offense, and it outspeeds almost all of the common meta, including Floatzel. It is very important to have a mon that outspeeds Floatzel in this meta. I stated before that it's a really great glue mon for offense and I'd just like to emphasize that point. I feel like a lot of offensive or balance teams end up choosing Zebstrika as a sixth mon because it's more speed, ability to check other Electrics, and wall-breaking potential. Overall, just a great mon in this meta which I feel should rise.

Zebstrika to A+

Zebstrika is 1 of only 2 relevant electric types that outspeed Floatzel. Zebstrika has hp grass/ice, signal beam, and the rare and coveted overheat. It just works well together with it only having 1 weakness. It's abilities complement that perfectly, creating an immunity for the team so that you can run pokemon such as Pelipper or Relicanth without worry. For offensive teams, especially HO teams, Zebstrika is the best electric type in the entire tier and even though it requires a timid nature and only has base 80 special attack, it deserves the raise to the bottom of A+

Misdreavus to A-

I have already nominated this in a post on page 51, but I cannot help but mention it again how useful this thing is. This thing can ideally beat 2/3 of the S Ranked Mons. It beats Floatzel by Thunderbolt and it beats Cacturne either by burning it while it sucker punches, or dazzling gleaming it while it doesn't. Misdreavus is also the absolute best counter to non-magic coat Smeargle in the entire tier with a fast taunt and an immunity to all hazards except SR. It's also the best rapid spin blocker in the tier, and can even sweep unprepared teams with nasty plot. Perish Song, Mean Look, Icy Wind, Foul Play, Heal Bell, Pain Split and HP Fighting are also dangerous moves in its arsenal. It beats Mr. Mime, Chatot, Grumpig, Vullaby, Gourgeist, Mightyena, Purugly and the Simis, which at first glance you would think it loses to but in practice doesn't. Because of its superior movepool, well rounded bulk with eviolite, and ability to cripple or eliminate top tier threats, we nod our hats off to Misdreavus: worthy of A- ranking.

Electrode to A

Electrode is quite similar to Zebstrika. You trade an immunity and better movepool to gain a better special attack, (Zebra runs timid, this runs modest) more speed, and the best answer to Chatot in the tier. It can revenge kill most of the tier while still holding a power-boosting item, and doesn't have to rely on a speed tie to outspeed opposing Zebstrika. It also acts like an anti-lead with taunt, magic coat and explosion. These things should move Electrode to the middle/bottom of A

Drifblim to A-

This oddly shaped weather balloon is notorious for being the only relevant unburden user in the tier. Its crazy fast and its backed up by the use of either a Weakness Policy, Sitrus or Colbur Berry. These items allow Drifblim to play as a sweeper, a baton passer, a fast destiny bonder, etc. It's versatility added with its base 150 HP stat means its strategy unfolds as planned a majority of the time, and is justifiable for A-

Vibrava to B/B-

Why is this thing not higher? It is the best non-SR weak non-water type hazard remover in the game. It functions well on balanced offensive teams that need a good defogger. It can withstand the might of Monferno, Golem, Stunfisk, Defensive Mawile and more. It provides such fantastic synergy with pokemon such as Lapras, Ninetales, Articuno, and Ursaring with its high physical defense and slow U-turn. I don't know if its good enough for B so either B or B- is fine.

Raichu to B+

Raichu isn't what it used to be. Base 90 special attack isn't hitting anything in particular that Zebstrika or Electrode wouldn't already KO. Lightning Rod is also on Zebstrika. Static is on Electrode if you really want it. Physical sets aren't extremely viable either, especially when it cannot have Extreme Speed and Volt Tackle together. It's only niche is as a nasty plot setter, but its so frail, you'll never pull one off without taking a large chunk of damage. While it can pick off some things with its high base 110 speed, so can several other pokemon that are just as fast or faster in the tier. It honestly just needs to drop to B+.

 

[pancake]

I agree with all of your noms (including Vibrava to B) except for Electrode, which I don't feel like writing about because I don't use it a ton, and this one:

Drifblim to A-

This oddly shaped weather balloon is notorious for being the only relevant unburden user in the tier. Its crazy fast and its backed up by the use of either a Weakness Policy, Sitrus or Colbur Berry. These items allow Drifblim to play as a sweeper, a baton passer, a fast destiny bonder, etc. It's versatility added with its base 150 HP stat means its strategy unfolds as planned a majority of the time, and is justifiable for A-

Drifblim is kind of a weird sweeper. However, I don't think you can justify its rise when it's clear you don't use its best set, AcroBlim. AcroBlim has to have very certain conditions to sweep, especially because it has to be under 25% HP to get the speedboost and is therefore fairly easily revenge killed. While it can sweep weakened teams if given the chance to set up, the prevalence of offense in this meta means that it has a lot of trouble setting up. So yeah, not quite A- material for me.

 

[Rennyjesus]

Hey guys! I have been lately pretty busy to write things in this kind of thread, but let's spend a little bit of my free time to post a few opinions...

Roselia: I totally disagree with dropping Rose... While it has been on a down lately, still is a nice gluemon IMO... it can still check the same things that checked before thanks to its bulk and its dual STAB (Even things that could check her like Monferno and Dodrio, really hate switching into uninvested Sludge Bombs), and Spikes Support still is pretty useful in PU Meta. Heck, it can even softly check Cacturne:

252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Roselia: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think that should be enough to demonstrate that actually Roselia has a slightly increased viability, at least just enough to keep it at A.

Zebstrika: I also disagree with this one rising... While Zebby can switch on Grass moves and SP, Cacturne really hurts Zebby's Viability thanks to that massive weakness to Sucker Punch:

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 227-269 (78 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And considering that Zebby almost always runs four attacks, it's actually pretty safe to just click SP and obliterate it...

Electrode: I'm on the fence on this one, because it's actually pretty similar to Zebstrika... Like it has been said, it's a little bit more powerful, but trading Fire coverage for Supporting tools... I could agree on it being on the same level of Zebby, but at the same time, those extra immunities to Electric or Grass are also kinda big, so I could also agree keeping it on A-...

Drfblim: While Acroblim has some means of dealing with Cacturne and other threats, still has coverage issues and like Pink said, while 150 HP, its defenses are low enough to make Blim setup a little bit harder in practice than it sounds on paper. Another thing is that I do not feel that Blim is particularly versatile, since while you can use it with WP Baton Pass and a Special Sweeping Set with Petaya, they are less viable sets IMO (I could be running things like Support Pawniard with Knock Off - SR - Taunt - TWave but that would be really sub par).

Vibrava: I Agree with this one! While it's pretty passive and taunt bait, its ability to come in any hazards without trouble and withstand some serious damage while also having reliable recovery is actually pretty good! Having a slow UTurn for letting sweepers come in for free and deal massive damage to Cacturne also helps! Sure it will fall against things that should check due to that massive 4x Ice Weakness but that didn't halted things like Golem or Pawniard to be threats to a nice part of the meta.

Misdreavus: The thing about this one is that it needs two very different spreads and movesets to deal with all the threats that you mentioned... A burned Cacturne will surely have trouble breaking stuff, but Special Cacturne has a 50% for OHKOing 252/0 Missy after Rocks with Dark Pulse, and if you decide to invest on special defense:

252+ Atk Life Orb burned Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 173-204 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 152-180 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Which would probably mean a trade between Cacturne and Missy...

Then if you decide to go offensive:
252 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

While you can Burn Cacturne and then Gleam it it will still deal 26,5 Minimum with Seed Bomb and 53.3 Minimum with SP which is more than 90% after rocks, in exchange for beating Cacturne... while decent isn't good enough of a counter actually (and if Missy burns while Turne set ups SDance then Missy has to stall with the burn because SP will Cleanly OHKO it...)

So... I don't think it should rise actually...

See ya!

 

[pancake]

I do not like your logic in disagreeing w/ my noms

Roselia: I totally disagree with dropping Rose... While it has been on a down lately, still is a nice gluemon IMO... it can still check the same things that checked before thanks to its bulk and its dual STAB (Even things that could check her like Monferno and Dodrio, really hate switching into uninvested Sludge Bombs), and Spikes Support still is pretty useful in PU Meta. Heck, it can even softly check Cacturne:

252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Roselia: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think that should be enough to demonstrate that actually Roselia has a slightly increased viability, at least just enough to keep it at A.

Zebstrika: I also disagree with this one rising... While Zebby can switch on Grass moves and SP, Cacturne really hurts Zebby's Viability thanks to that massive weakness to Sucker Punch:

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 227-269 (78 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And considering that Zebby almost always runs four attacks, it's actually pretty safe to just click SP and obliterate it...

So Cacturne dropped, suddenly it's the most relevant mon in the meta and the only mon you have to consider when considering whether or not mons should rise? I know you are better than this, man :V Cacturne is a powerful mon in this meta but I don't even see it too much, which is why you should consider how the entire meta has shifted. This is why I made the nominations that I did, not because of Cacturne.

 

[The Jungle Fox]

Just to point out, Sitrus Blim is just as good and doesn't need to be at 25%. This variant is imo more consistent (though it trades power for consistency as it avoids revenge killing from scarfers that outspeed it (the relevant ones; obviously Scarfchu and scarfbuzz will still ohko but Dodrio has a chance and Simipour just fails to rk) aswell as random priority moves, surviving every Aqua Jet in the tier and even LO Dusknoir's Shadow Sneak (63.2 - 74.3%). It's also quite easy to support and it provides support itself. Explosion can overwhelm some Flying-resists, paving the way for another Flying-Type; Baton Pass passes huge 150 HP Substitutes that may be accompanied with a boost in Attack; Knock Off is Knock Off: It chips whatever comes in, and takes away important items such as Leftovers and Eviolite; Sucker Punch is odd but it can be used for opposing priority users aswell as faster Scarfers, etc. It's just really easy to support and not that difficult to pull up sweeps as it only needs to switch in with rocks up 3 times in order to do it, which is easy with Drifblim's useful imunities and okay bulk + utility to scare out things.

Vibrava shouldn't rise rn. Vibrava is pretty easy to overwhelm and its typing has lackluster synergy with most rockers in the tier, not to mention it's very passive. Overall it's a solid mon but B-/B is pushing it a bit as it's not that good.

I'm not a fan of Rose in this meta: It may soft check Cacturne, but the defensive set is really passive and switch in to strong mons in the tier. Just like Vibrava, I think it's easy to overwhelm and the main wallbreakers rn break ridiculously easy past it. Flying- and Psychic-types are very common right now, and Water-types've seen a decrease in usage. Overall it's still decent but imo not A material.

It's been a while since I've used Zebstrika but I'm pretty splitted. While sure, it is an awesome glue for offense, balance and etc. but it's power sometimes is lacking. Electric-types are so threatening right now (they've ever been tbh) that you must have Electric imunities in order to not get destroyed by them, as even if you pack checks (barring few exceptions, such as mons with recovery), you just get Volt Switched on and lose momentum. I think it should stay A because its power sometimes just lacks and electric resists/checks/imunities are extremely common (I dare saying mandatory).

Electrode is very similar. Taunt is great utility and the boost in power actually matters for some few calcs. I don't think, however, those traits provide enough niche to support a rise. Being a Chatot check for offense is really nice but there are others (Bouff, Mime, the classic bulky mon you slap on it) that can also be used, and when you do have one of those, it's pretty difficult to justify Electrode's use over Zebs (barring those 2 niches) when Zebs can provide one imunity and Overheat helps it breaking things plus design is a thing and zebs' is arguably better. I'd say keep it A-.

I abstain on Missy, not a fan as I lack success when using so... moving for another topic...

And a really hot one! Okay, Raichu may suffer competition from Zebstrika and Electrode to a lesser extent as an offensive electric-type mainly because of the speed, but it holds solid niches. Raichu is one of the few electric-types capable of punishing electric imunities/checks. Focus Blast punishes bulky normal types and grass types (barring Roselia), Surf punishes ground types that try to switch in. However, the set I'm here to talk about is NP. It was harshly underestimated. While, sure, it may be difficult to pull up a boost with its lackluster bulk, but the same could be said about Mr. Mime and yet it's A+ and yet considered one of the best stall and balancebreakers in the tier. The thing is not bulk: the thing is the opportunity. Electric STAB is something that is easy to spam and Electric types just scare a lot of things. Raichu's speed also helps it scaring even more as it threatens to revenge kill things such as Ursa that Mime can't (unless it bluffs Scarf). After a NP boost, it overwhelms most special walls and Electric-resists, meaning it can pull up a sweep on its own or just support something else, not to mention it provides a wincon/wallbreaker and electric imunity. Overall it's solid and should remain A-.

 

[Aaronboyer]

I agree with all of your noms (including Vibrava to B) except for Electrode, which I don't feel like writing about because I don't use it a ton, and this one:


Drifblim is kind of a weird sweeper. However, I don't think you can justify its rise when it's clear you don't use its best set, AcroBlim. AcroBlim has to have very certain conditions to sweep, especially because it has to be under 25% HP to get the speedboost and is therefore fairly easily revenge killed. While it can sweep weakened teams if given the chance to set up, the prevalence of offense in this meta means that it has a lot of trouble setting up. So yeah, not quite A- material for me.

The only reason I wanted Drifblim to go to A- is because I thought it needed to get moved up within B+ but we really can't do that. I agree. A- may have been a stretch. It's not as good as missy or dusknoir.

Hey guys! I have been lately pretty busy to write things in this kind of thread, but let's spend a little bit of my free time to post a few opinions...

Roselia: I totally disagree with dropping Rose... While it has been on a down lately, still is a nice gluemon IMO... it can still check the same things that checked before thanks to its bulk and its dual STAB (Even things that could check her like Monferno and Dodrio, really hate switching into uninvested Sludge Bombs), and Spikes Support still is pretty useful in PU Meta. Heck, it can even softly check Cacturne:

252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 32 Def Eviolite Roselia: 183-216 (60.1 - 71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 99-117 (32.5 - 38.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

0 SpA Roselia Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 294-348 (104.6 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

I think that should be enough to demonstrate that actually Roselia has a slightly increased viability, at least just enough to keep it at A.

Zebstrika: I also disagree with this one rising... While Zebby can switch on Grass moves and SP, Cacturne really hurts Zebby's Viability thanks to that massive weakness to Sucker Punch:

252+ Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 250-294 (85.9 - 101%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Life Orb Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Zebstrika: 227-269 (78 - 92.4%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

And considering that Zebby almost always runs four attacks, it's actually pretty safe to just click SP and obliterate it...

Electrode: I'm on the fence on this one, because it's actually pretty similar to Zebstrika... Like it has been said, it's a little bit more powerful, but trading Fire coverage for Supporting tools... I could agree on it being on the same level of Zebby, but at the same time, those extra immunities to Electric or Grass are also kinda big, so I could also agree keeping it on A-...

Drfblim: While Acroblim has some means of dealing with Cacturne and other threats, still has coverage issues and like Pink said, while 150 HP, its defenses are low enough to make Blim setup a little bit harder in practice than it sounds on paper. Another thing is that I do not feel that Blim is particularly versatile, since while you can use it with WP Baton Pass and a Special Sweeping Set with Petaya, they are less viable sets IMO (I could be running things like Support Pawniard with Knock Off - SR - Taunt - TWave but that would be really sub par).

Vibrava: I Agree with this one! While it's pretty passive and taunt bait, its ability to come in any hazards without trouble and withstand some serious damage while also having reliable recovery is actually pretty good! Having a slow UTurn for letting sweepers come in for free and deal massive damage to Cacturne also helps! Sure it will fall against things that should check due to that massive 4x Ice Weakness but that didn't halted things like Golem or Pawniard to be threats to a nice part of the meta.

Misdreavus: The thing about this one is that it needs two very different spreads and movesets to deal with all the threats that you mentioned... A burned Cacturne will surely have trouble breaking stuff, but Special Cacturne has a 50% for OHKOing 252/0 Missy after Rocks with Dark Pulse, and if you decide to invest on special defense:

252+ Atk Life Orb burned Cacturne Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Misdreavus: 173-204 (53.3 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 152-180 (54 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

Which would probably mean a trade between Cacturne and Missy...

Then if you decide to go offensive:
252 SpA Misdreavus Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cacturne: 198-234 (70.4 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and burn damage

While you can Burn Cacturne and then Gleam it it will still deal 26,5 Minimum with Seed Bomb and 53.3 Minimum with SP which is more than 90% after rocks, in exchange for beating Cacturne... while decent isn't good enough of a counter actually (and if Missy burns while Turne set ups SDance then Missy has to stall with the burn because SP will Cleanly OHKO it...)

So... I don't think it should rise actually...

See ya!

I wanted Electrode at the bottom of A and its at the very top of A- now. I still think it belongs where I originally nominated it.

Misdreavus plays 50/50 mind games with cacturne. Even if it's a cacturne for missy trade, cacturne is one of the scariest wall breakers in the tier right now and you should be thankful it can be traded 1v1. It's likely that you already know what set its running by the time you face off in that match up and can proceed to do what is necessary based on your opponents playstyle. I understand it cannot switch in on it, but it can OHKO it or cripple it for the rest of the match. Also Cacturne shouldn't be the only reason Missy stays where it is. Especially not when I listed a whole deal of B or higher ranked mons it checks or counters. Rethink about it; Missy should be going up in viability (to A-)

Also btw I don't think anyone got my Nod your hats off pun for Missy in my last post. But what ever... :) #NoHatNoSwag

 

[MSC Knightmare]

I'd like to nominate Dragonair from Unranked>B rank

This is never seen in this tier because you'd assume it to be outclassed by mons like Altaria, Fraxure, and Gabite. Well, it can do 1 thing better than they all can, and it's on the RestTalk set; a mixed attacking set. Let me show you all:

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Shed Skin
Bashful Nature
100 Attack EVs, 116 Defense EVs, 100 Spec A Evs, 100 Spec D EVs, 92 Speed EVs

Dragon Dance
Draco Meteor
Extremespeed
Iron Tail

What we have here is an incredibly unconventional Fairy lure, wallbreaker, revenge killer, and (given the right circumstances) late game cleaner, all rolled into one. Because many people assume a Dragon Dance set is the usual RestTalk set with Outrage, it can perfectly lure in Fairies that would otherwise counter this set and bash them to bits with Iron Tail. Shed Skin (as you'll see in a replay I'll post) helps it function as a wallbreaker, by being able to setup on most walls with near impunity by virtue of its solid defensive typing. Draco Meteor provides it with a 1 time nuke, and because this thing is running mixed, it can still stay in afterwards. Shed Skin helps it be a wallbreaker by getting rid of crippling status, which is huge since it reduces the amount of support this thing needs to function. It does need certain threats, like Regice, Rotom-F, and Floatzel eliminated or severely weakened before it can come in to start to setup, and it does suffer from a mild case of 4mss since this set leaves it walled by just about any Steel type, and this means that it belongs in B right alongside main competitor Fraxure.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-431759627

Watch this replay. Notice how I totally wall this Wailord. Attempts to Toxic stall me are nullified by Shed Skin, and I am able to use it as setup fodder. Once I break through Wailord, I go on to do tons of damage before I switch it out. Dragonair pretty much wins me the game here and is able to use entry hazard support from Relicanth well, by being able to swiftly take out Grotle in 2 hits and finish Simisear with 1 Extremespeed.

Now for some calcs:

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 210-248 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 224-268 (73.6 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Carbink Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 96-114 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 276-326 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 230-272 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 156-186 (59.3 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 108-128 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 124-147 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 202-238 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Golem: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

 

[EnemyJurist]

I'd like to nominate Dragonair from Unranked>B rank

This is never seen in this tier because you'd assume it to be outclassed by mons like Altaria, Fraxure, and Gabite. Well, it can do 1 thing better than they all can, and it's on the RestTalk set; a mixed attacking set. Let me show you all:

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Shed Skin
Bashful Nature
100 Attack EVs, 116 Defense EVs, 100 Spec A Evs, 100 Spec D EVs, 92 Speed EVs

Dragon Dance
Draco Meteor
Extremespeed
Iron Tail

What we have here is an incredibly unconventional Fairy lure, wallbreaker, revenge killer, and (given the right circumstances) late game cleaner, all rolled into one. Because many people assume a Dragon Dance set is the usual RestTalk set with Outrage, it can perfectly lure in Fairies that would otherwise counter this set and bash them to bits with Iron Tail. Shed Skin (as you'll see in a replay I'll post) helps it function as a wallbreaker, by being able to setup on most walls with near impunity by virtue of its solid defensive typing. Draco Meteor provides it with a 1 time nuke, and because this thing is running mixed, it can still stay in afterwards. Shed Skin helps it be a wallbreaker by getting rid of crippling status, which is huge since it reduces the amount of support this thing needs to function. It does need certain threats, like Regice, Rotom-F, and Floatzel eliminated or severely weakened before it can come in to start to setup, and it does suffer from a mild case of 4mss since this set leaves it walled by just about any Steel type, and this means that it belongs in B right alongside main competitor Fraxure.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-431759627

Watch this replay. Notice how I totally wall this Wailord. Attempts to Toxic stall me are nullified by Shed Skin, and I am able to use it as setup fodder. Once I break through Wailord, I go on to do tons of damage before I switch it out. Dragonair pretty much wins me the game here and is able to use entry hazard support from Relicanth well, by being able to swiftly take out Grotle in 2 hits and finish Simisear with 1 Extremespeed.

Now for some calcs:

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 210-248 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 224-268 (73.6 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Carbink Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 96-114 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 276-326 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 230-272 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 156-186 (59.3 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 108-128 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 124-147 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 202-238 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Golem: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

Dragonair is outclassed by Fraxure as a Fairy lure (Poison Jab) and also just in general as a Dragon Dancer (Dragonair lacks fighting coverage, unlike Fraxure (Low Kick/Superpower), and Dragonair has much less attack than Fraxure.)
Also, Draco Meteor is not spammable due to the special attack drop, which is bad considering it is your main STAB, and Dragon Dance doesn't boost it's damage output.
Finally, Dragonair is outclassed by every mon in b-rank, meaning even if the set had merit it would be far below B-rank.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

It isn't totally outclassed as a fairy lure, it hits Carbink harder than Fraxure does, and people actually expect Fraxure to be running Fairy coverage, so the element of surprise is on my side.

I'm also a little intrigued that you suggest it is outclassed by "every mon in B rank"

How do Simisage, Probopass, Tangela, Ninjask, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Drifblim, Pelipper, Duosion, Huntail, Lapras, Simisear, Rotom-S, Beheeyem, Prinplup, and Camerupt outclass it?

I'll even give you Gabite and Altaria, pretending for a moment that either can run a mixed set better than this (they can't, so I'm being generous)

I acknowledge that Draco Meteor isn't spammable. If you want spammable Dragon STAB, Dragon Pulse works perfectly fine too. I even made it clear Draco Meteor is a "1 time nuke" as it has always been.

 

[Conor3197]

I'd like to nominate Dragonair from Unranked>B rank

This is never seen in this tier because you'd assume it to be outclassed by mons like Altaria, Fraxure, and Gabite. Well, it can do 1 thing better than they all can, and it's on the RestTalk set; a mixed attacking set. Let me show you all:

Dragonair @ Eviolite
Shed Skin
Bashful Nature
100 Attack EVs, 116 Defense EVs, 100 Spec A Evs, 100 Spec D EVs, 92 Speed EVs

Dragon Dance
Draco Meteor
Extremespeed
Iron Tail

What we have here is an incredibly unconventional Fairy lure, wallbreaker, revenge killer, and (given the right circumstances) late game cleaner, all rolled into one. Because many people assume a Dragon Dance set is the usual RestTalk set with Outrage, it can perfectly lure in Fairies that would otherwise counter this set and bash them to bits with Iron Tail. Shed Skin (as you'll see in a replay I'll post) helps it function as a wallbreaker, by being able to setup on most walls with near impunity by virtue of its solid defensive typing. Draco Meteor provides it with a 1 time nuke, and because this thing is running mixed, it can still stay in afterwards. Shed Skin helps it be a wallbreaker by getting rid of crippling status, which is huge since it reduces the amount of support this thing needs to function. It does need certain threats, like Regice, Rotom-F, and Floatzel eliminated or severely weakened before it can come in to start to setup, and it does suffer from a mild case of 4mss since this set leaves it walled by just about any Steel type, and this means that it belongs in B right alongside main competitor Fraxure.

http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/pu-431759627

Watch this replay. Notice how I totally wall this Wailord. Attempts to Toxic stall me are nullified by Shed Skin, and I am able to use it as setup fodder. Once I break through Wailord, I go on to do tons of damage before I switch it out. Dragonair pretty much wins me the game here and is able to use entry hazard support from Relicanth well, by being able to swiftly take out Grotle in 2 hits and finish Simisear with 1 Extremespeed.

Now for some calcs:

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 210-248 (63.6 - 75.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Carbink: 224-268 (73.6 - 88.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

4 SpA Carbink Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 96-114 (36.5 - 43.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Fraxure: 276-326 (101 - 119.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 68 HP / 0 SpD Altaria: 230-272 (74.6 - 88.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Altaria Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 156-186 (59.3 - 70.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Clefairy: 248-292 (72 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Clefairy Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Dragonair: 108-128 (41 - 48.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Gabite: 258-306 (76.1 - 90.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Dragonair: 124-147 (47.1 - 55.8%) -- 78.5% chance to 2HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. -1 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Monferno: 202-238 (75 - 88.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+1 100 Atk Dragonair Iron Tail vs. 248 HP / 252 Def Golem: 168-198 (46.2 - 54.5%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO

Ok so i dont really know where to start...

Ok so according to your logic d-dance Scraggy should also be b rank. Scraggy can have sked skin and can run poison jab as a fairy lure. It isnt really worth noting about how that Dragonair walls Wairlord. Wailord isnt even viable. Anything that is poison type / restalks / runs taunt that is fast eg. Electrode, Grumpig, can wall Wailord. Secondly that replay is extremely bad. I dont see why you would keep Wailord in on a Dragonair, especially when its main set runs rest AND shed skin. But he still stayed in Wailord and literally let you set up on him. His team was also not the best :/.

Now for the calcs. Firstly the articuno calc is really poor imo but it kills after rocks i guess. Secondly people only use carbink as a tr setter. The other calcs are all only fair.

So, i believe that dragonair should stay unranked and as for you, I would suggest checking out chat a bit more.

 

[Magnemite]

a fairy lure not really a useful (and even then, why are you talking about carbink and not clefairy? carbink is irrelevant) since there are so few fairies, especially when you consider that out of the 3 relevant ones, one never switches into attacks (mime) and another is neutral to iron tail and is commonly physically defensive (mawile). There really isn't anything that makes dragonair worth using over the more standard options.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

This set's primary function isn't as a fairy lure, that is just one of the things it can do. To sum it up, the intent behind this thing is that it can act as a mixed wallbreaker.

 

[Magnemite]

This set's primary function isn't as a fairy lure, that is just one of the things it can do. To sum it up, the intent behind this thing is that it can act as a mixed wallbreaker.

altaria still does this way better

 

[Conor3197]

This set's primary function isn't as a fairy lure, that is just one of the things it can do. To sum it up, the intent behind this thing is that it can act as a mixed wallbreaker.

Then why does it desserve B rank? It isnt a revenge killer either. It cant revenge kill scarvers or faster mons like Floatzel / Raichu / Jumpluff / Zeb. The ability to kill 1 fairy type and "wall wailord" is not enough for it to get B rank.

 

[EnemyJurist]

It isn't totally outclassed as a fairy lure, it hits Carbink harder than Fraxure does, and people actually expect Fraxure to be running Fairy coverage, so the element of surprise is on my side.

I'm also a little intrigued that you suggest it is outclassed by "every mon in B rank"

How do Simisage, Probopass, Tangela, Ninjask, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Drifblim, Pelipper, Duosion, Huntail, Lapras, Simisear, Rotom-S, Beheeyem, Prinplup, and Camerupt outclass it?

I'll even give you Gabite and Altaria, pretending for a moment that either can run a mixed set better than this (they can't, so I'm being generous)

I acknowledge that Draco Meteor isn't spammable. If you want spammable Dragon STAB, Dragon Pulse works perfectly fine too. I even made it clear Draco Meteor is a "1 time nuke" as it has always been.

Lmao, Draco Meteor is hardly a nuke coming off of 201 SpA (I was wrong the first time about the stat, not a huge difference from 186 to 201.) 130 Base Power doesn't make up for that. This thing isn't breaking any walls.

Also I'm not going through that whole list, but you just named some viable attackers, Defoggers, Stealth Rockers, Ghosts, and stat boosters. They all do a better job than Dragonair does for its nonexistent niche.

Seconding what Magnemite said about what Fairies you should be targeting.

 

[MSC Knightmare]

Having access to Extremespeed, it absolutely is a revenge killer and can perform against offense much better than Altaria can

 

[Magnemite]

Having access to Extremespeed, it absolutely is a revenge killer and can perform against offense much better than Altaria can

100 Atk Dragonair Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Floatzel: 90-107 (28.9 - 34.4%) -- 3.6% chance to 3HKO

This is going absolutely nowhere, Dragonair isn't getting ranked unless you can manage to bring something new up that makes it actually worth using, which really doesn't exist. All future posts that don't add anything new will be deleted.

 

[EnemyJurist]

nominating Lapras to A-

Going to focus this on two main aspects of Lapras.
Lapras has insane natural bulk.
130/80/95 is very good, and for some perspective, here are a few calcs. Note that this spread is 120 HP / 252 Spa / 136 Spe, enough for Jolly Golem, meaning extra bulk can be ran.

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 372-438 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

This is good enough that you can just move 24 HP EVs to Defense to make it a 0% chance to OHKO, meaning you can optimize any Lapras you use to what threatens your team. On the contrary, on the special side:

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Giga Drain vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 335-398 (77.7 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

^^^^^This why you should run Energy Ball on your special Cacturnes. However, Energy Ball isn't even a guaranteed OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Energy Ball vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 400-476 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

This is coming off of the strongest Grass attacker in the tier. Basically, Lapras has the bulk to stomach a ton of hits. Then, it dishes out major damage back, to the point where it has very few true switchins.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the other side of Lapras. Apart from Regice, SpDef Clefairy, and Audino, virtually the entire tier is 2HKOed by either Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Freeze-Dry, or Thunderbolt, and with hazards, everything dies. With no hazards up, Lapras already has few switchins, and with a bit of chip and/or hazards, Lapras has no true switchins.

Some miscellaneous stuff about Lapras:
Sub/Toxic is an option to surprise Audino and the like, and it messes with people that need to sacrifice a mon to break its sub.
Block/Perish Song is even an option to further hate on Lapras's counters.
Lapras also makes people extremely hesitant to lock themselves into Water-type attacks, as giving Lapras free switches in is never a good plan, which gives you a bit of an easier time predicting.

s/o iRebel for wanting this nom but not liking nomming stuff

 

[Rennyjesus]

Let's go separately on each part of your original post...

You are using a Dragonair with that weird spread (and a neutral nature...), to get this stats:
HP: 263
Atk: 229
Def: 195
SpA: 201
SpD: 201
Spe: 199
Can you just explain:
1.- Why you use an Evio mon with Odd numbered defenses? Why not 194-202 or 196-200 to optimize eviolite?
2.- Why you just run 199 Speed? Speed tying with 50 Base speed Neutral natured Max invest pokés isn't like the wisest investment I think... Especially when you consider that still at +1 is less than 306 which is Jolly Leafeon, something that you should be able to deal with if you are using Mixed Sets...
3.- 229 attack at +1 becomes 343... How is that a "Wallbreaker" without Physical STAB or a decent coverage move?

After that I would like to mention your odd selection of moves, especially considering that you will be absolutely walled by the few steel pokes in PU like Pawniard (That will be setupping Sword Dance and blowing through like nothing), Mawile (That will obliterate Dragonair with Knock Off - Play Rough), Metang (Setuping Rocks and then Meteor Mashing you to oblivion, possibly even getting an attack boost in the process) and Probopass (Which will set up rocks, get the Paralysis a lot more times than Dragonair can activate Shed Skin and slowly chipping health while Dragonair wastes its HP and Iron Tail PP).

Another thing is that You seem absolutely proud of Draco Meteor Wallbreaking prowess but against a few things that are a little bit bulkier, it goes like this:
100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Gourgeist-Super: 151-178 (40.3 - 47.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Pelipper: 159-187 (49.2 - 57.8%) -- 59% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Leafeon: 169-201 (62.3 - 74.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

100 SpA Dragonair Draco Meteor vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 109-130 (31.9 - 38.1%) -- 1.4% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

Which is pretty underwhelming... Heck, it will even have a tough time breaking through Leafeon, since Draco + ESpeed will not 2HKO it a lot of time... Then Dragonair will be at -2 SpA and Leafeon usually has recovery which is just painful...

Another thing is... This Dragonair while decently bulky, has ZERO recovery, will not be activating Shed Skin EACH TURN unless you are really lucky (two turns of Toxic + Rocks are chipping almost 1/3 of Dragonair's Health) and its affected by every hazard and it will need to take some damage just to setup to +1 (or will be letting in a Counter or something else can setup alongside it, I dunno what is worst)... A Setup that will be lost when Dragonair switches just to get that -2 SpA to its original value... At least Altaria, while weaker to SR, its immune to spikes, has One turn recovery, has Ground Immunity and Fighting resistance to let it switch more easily and isn't that weakened after taking a Knock Off...

Finally you asked:
How do Simisage, Probopass, Tangela, Ninjask, Murkrow, Misdreavus, Drifblim, Pelipper, Duosion, Huntail, Lapras, Simisear, Rotom-S, Beheeyem, Prinplup, and Camerupt outclass it?

Then:
* Simisage and Simisear: better coverage, speed tier and power right of the bat, also with the ability to go mixed.
* Probopass: superior defensive type, can lure a few important things and can wall some more than just Wailord...
* Tangela: absurd bulk, recovery through Synthesis and its ability, letting it sponge attacks, while not being so passive due to Sleep Powder and 100 base SpA.
* Ninjask: gains momentum easily, bypasses subtitutes with Infiltrator o even Speed passing shenanigans...
* Murkrow: Its pretty versatile, can go with bulky support sets or offensive ones with a decent dual STAB and can also be mixed.
* Misdreavus: As bulky as Dragonair, with three immunities and a pretty decent supportive and offensive movepool... Also has some kind of recovery thanks to Pain Split.
* Drifblim: Weakness Policy Sets can sweep unprepared teams, thanks to a good STAB in Acrobatics, while it can also run Baton Pass, burn things or almost ensure an enemy going down thanks to Destiny Bond.
* Pelipper: another bulky poké, with reliable recovery, Scald to burn things AND Defog to support the team.
* Duosion: Another thing with more than one way to recover and if you decide to go with Magic Guard, it will be almost completwly immune to status meaning that you can't break one with Poison after it got a few boosts...
* Huntail: This one is the most evident example of a thing that utterly outclasses Dragonair... A Mixed sweeper than can become A LOT MORE threatening to a team with one set up turn thanks to Shell Smash, also has decent bulk and while not as reliable as Extreme Speed it also has priority on Sucker Punch (One that can actually beat shit like Zebsteika and Floatzel).
* Lapras: This is a REAL walbreaker, since with a Specs set, it really have few switch ins...
* Camerupt: nice dual STAB, can also go mixed and can even set up Rock Polish and plow things. Heck, it can even go with Eruption shenanigans... And it also has Stealth Rock to support the team.
* Beheeyem: another huge Walbreaker. LO - Specs Analytic Beheeyem can heavily dent bulky things without a resistance:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Beheeyem Psychic vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Audino: 243-286 (59.2 - 69.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery.
That's what I would call a Wallbreaker...
* Prinplup: see Pelipper with more bulk but without recovery...
* Rotom: nice dual STAB, with decent supporting moves on Trick, WoW, TWave, Pain Split...

I think that makes clear why Dragonair is outclassed by B ranked pokes, and I could make cases for a lot of other pokes on lower ranks but I guess this is more than enough...

In conclusion:
Want a dragon Type? Use Fraxure
Want a Fairy lure? Use Poison Jab/Iron Tail Fraxure
Want a mixed Dragon Type? Use Altaria
Want Priority? Use Cacturne, Pawniard, Monferno, Floatzel, etc...
Want a setup sweeper? Use Monferno, Leafeon, the Simi trio, Huntail, Gorebyss...
Want a setup sweeper with priority? Use Huntail.
Want a wall breaker? Use Lapras, Beheeyem, Stoutland, Bouffalant...

See ya!
P.D.: I also agree with Lapras nom! It's wallbreaking prowess while might be a little bit reliant on prediction, its actually huge because it can heavily dent disgusting things like Audino and Grumpig, while being bulky enough to withstand a few attacks. However I must say that no one should be using Energy Ball on special Cacturne, since Turne just need SR on the field to ensure the OHKO against Lapras with Giga Drain, and Giga Drain helps mitigating the Life Orb recoil!

Edit: I was just basing a lot of my thoughts for the previous mons on Cacturne, just because is the biggest new addition to the tier (yep we also got Smeargle, Muk and a few other things, but they do not have the huge meta impact that Cacturne has) and its the one that has made some real changes on the meta as such... Isn't an ommnipotent poke, but being an "S" rank I guess its the one that you should be prepared...

 

[Acast]

nominating Lapras to A-

Going to focus this on two main aspects of Lapras.
Lapras has insane natural bulk.
130/80/95 is very good, and for some perspective, here are a few calcs. Note that this spread is 120 HP / 252 Spa / 136 Spe, enough for Jolly Golem, meaning extra bulk can be ran.

252+ Atk Monferno Close Combat vs. 120 HP / 0 Def Lapras: 372-438 (86.3 - 101.6%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

This is good enough that you can just move 24 HP EVs to Defense to make it a 0% chance to OHKO, meaning you can optimize any Lapras you use to what threatens your team. On the contrary, on the special side:

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Giga Drain vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 335-398 (77.7 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

^^^^^This why you should run Energy Ball on your special Cacturnes. However, Energy Ball isn't even a guaranteed OHKO.

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Energy Ball vs. 120 HP / 0 SpD Lapras: 400-476 (92.8 - 110.4%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

This is coming off of the strongest Grass attacker in the tier. Basically, Lapras has the bulk to stomach a ton of hits. Then, it dishes out major damage back, to the point where it has very few true switchins.

252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 160 HP / 0 SpD Grumpig: 204-241 (59.8 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 224+ SpD Eviolite Roselia: 206-246 (67.7 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Choice Specs Lapras Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Metang: 178-210 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

This is the other side of Lapras. Apart from Regice, SpDef Clefairy, and Audino, virtually the entire tier is 2HKOed by either Hydro Pump, Ice Beam, Freeze-Dry, or Thunderbolt, and with hazards, everything dies. With no hazards up, Lapras already has few switchins, and with a bit of chip and/or hazards, Lapras has no true switchins.

Some miscellaneous stuff about Lapras:
Sub/Toxic is an option to surprise Audino and the like, and it messes with people that need to sacrifice a mon to break its sub.
Block/Perish Song is even an option to further hate on Lapras's counters.
Lapras also makes people extremely hesitant to lock themselves into Water-type attacks, as giving Lapras free switches in is never a good plan, which gives you a bit of an easier time predicting.

s/o iRebel for wanting this nom but not liking nomming stuff

Honestly when I nominated Lapras to rise a few weeks ago I wanted to nom it for A-, but I thought that would be too drastic and wouldn't gain much support. Needless to say, I wholeheartedly support this. A wallbreaker of Lapras's caliber deserves to be in one of the A subranks.

I'd also like to make my own nomination, which might be a little controversial.

Nominating Trapinch to rise from B- to B.

Before the big tier shift last month when we got Muk and Cacturne, Trapinch was a fairly rare pokemon. Lately I've noticed it appearing on a lot more teams and I've even been adding it to my own teams quite often, which I never would have considered doing months ago. Its role just seems to be incredibly effective in the metagame as it is now. Electric types are very big threats that some teams struggle with, Steel types are still a nuisance to offensive teams just as they've always been, and now Muk is new threat that it can eliminate. Trapinch is an invaluable teammate for sweepers like Drifblim, Jumpluff, and Muk that need particular checks and counters eliminated, and pairing it with U-turn users (Lumineon and Vullaby especially, since they lure in Electric types) is an extremely effective tactic for getting it in play at the right time. I'd say that Trapinch is gradually crawling its way out of the "rare niche" category, so I think a rise in rank is appropriate.

I would include a few replays since I've been using it a lot lately, but I didn't think I'd need to save them at the time.

Some relevant calcs:

4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 174-206 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
4 Atk Trapinch Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 194-230 (83.9 - 99.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Stunfisk Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 63-75 (21.4 - 25.5%) -- 0.2% chance to 4HKO
252+ Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Trapinch: 163-193 (55.4 - 65.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Electrode Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Trapinch: 104-125 (35.3 - 42.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[ShuckleDeath]

I'd also like to make my own nomination, which might be a little controversial.

Nominating Trapinch to rise from B- to B.

I can get behind this nomination, Trapinch like Acast said is adding very crucial support to the better offensive Pokemon of the tier atm, Muk, Dodrio and even Stoutland to an extent all appreciate Trapinch. Electrics also seem to be on the rise once again so this just justifies the rise even further.

Non Rotom-F and Rotom-S Electric usage

Raichu - #8 in PU | Usage: 8.49299% | Raw count: 26,504 | Weight: 0.60428652423

Electrode - #16 in PU | Usage: 7.29278% | Raw count: 22,252 | Weight: 0.621390599949

Zebstrika - #30 in PU | Usage: 5.89079% | Raw count: 17,407 | Weight: 0.645814457981

Also Superpower is an option on Trapinch to get the 100% OHKO on Pawniard

0 Atk Trapinch Superpower vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 308-364 (133.3 - 157.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[false]

I don't think I've ever played a PU ladder match in my entire life, however I've played in tournaments a little bit and I just wanted to voice my opinion on a few things.

From my personal experience of playing with and against Muk, I think it's better than A-. SpD Muk, which is far and away the best set in my opinion, boasts incredible special bulk that somehow allows it to turn some of the most threatening and difficult Pokemon to switch into into setup fodder. Passive recovery is always instrumental on a slow setup sweeper, and the fact that Muk has Sticky Hold which not only prevents its Black Sludge from being Knocked Off, but also from being swapped via Trick/Switcheroo is absolutely invaluable. In general the fact that Muk is a slow setup Pokemon that isn't crippled by being Tricked a Choice item is incredible. Muk's attacking option, Poison Jab also happens to a surprisingly useful attack that has utility outside of immediate sweeping. In a similar manner to Scald, Poison Jab has a 30% chance for a status effect (in this case Poison) which makes it a decently spammable move in the early game as you can use it to cripple common switchins such as Golem, Stunfisk, Gourgeist-XL, Vullaby, and Relicanth which will slowly wear them down over time, often making it easier for Muk to sweep in the late game. Muk is also a Pokemon that must be considered when teambuilding, with players being forced to make sure they have reliable methods of counterplay for it unless they want to end up like my last PU Open opponent. Pokemon that are threatening not only in practice, but also in the builder are always rated highly since they are ultimately the Pokemon that define how the teams in the tier are constructed, therefore influencing the tier as a whole. I'd like to see Muk to rise, and low to mid A seems like a fair assessment in my opinion.

Calcs

252 SpA Life Orb Floatzel Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 126-149 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Dark Pulse vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 122-146 (29.4 - 35.2%) -- 100% chance to 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

252+ SpA Life Orb Regice Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Muk: 126-149 (30.4 - 35.9%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Golem to the top of A+ alongside Monferno is another thing I've wanted to see for a little while. I have most experience using Choice Band Golem, a savagely underrated set, however, standard sets like Weakness Policy, SpD Tank, and Custap are all still viable and are excellent when used correctly. Golem is by far the most consistent Stealth Rock user in the entire tier, and just also happens to function as a great check to two of the more threatening types in the tier in Electric and Normal. Its reliability and utility as a Stealth Rock user when combined with its aforementioned ability to reliably check a large variety of common threats to balance and bulky offense makes Golem one of the easiest Pokemon to splash onto almost any archetype, and where it's currently sitting just seems slightly too low for just how important it is. I could show replay after replay of Choice Band Golem just rolling through teams, but Golem is already an A+ ranked Pokemon, so you should already know how good it is, I'm only nomming it to rise a few slots at most, but I think its a fair assessment of Golem's value and impact on the metagame

I'm kinda piggybacking off of an already started discussion with this nom, but a Vibrava rise seems like the right thing to do. Vibrava is far superior to Avalugg, the other hazard removal currently sitting alongside Vibrava in the C+ rank, and has experienced a recent spike in popularity thanks to its newly found Physically Defensive set which allows it to better handle metagame staples such as Monferno and Golem more reliably. Vibrava is becoming an easier Pokemon to fit on many balanced and bulky offensive archetypes that require a Ground, Fire, and Rock resist due to the fact that it compresses a decent number of defensive roles into a single slot, whilst also providing hazard removal, and having U-turn so that it doesn't lose momentum, allowing it to support common breakers such as Choice Band Dodrio or Cacturne relatively effectively.