Lower Tiers PU Viability Rankings

Anty

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SUPER ULTRA HUGE MEGA Z-MOVE UPDATE
Muk A to A+
Jumpluff A to A-
Relicanth A to A-
Clefairy A- to A
Politoed A- to B+
Simipour A- to B+
Crustle A- to B+
Cryogonal A- to B+
Ursaring B+ to B
Misdreavus B+ to B
Pelipper B+ to B
Altaria B+ to B
Simisear B+ to B
Lumineon B to B+
Basculin B to B-
Fraxure B to B-
Gogoat B to B-
Mightyena B to B-
Leavanny B- to C+
Seaking B- to C+
Volbeat B- to C+
Zweilous C+ to B-
Beartic C+ to C
Meowstic-M C+ to C
Carbink C to C-
Luxray C to C-
Banette C- to D
Vanilluxe C- to D
Weepinbell C- to D
Scraggy D to unranked
Seviper D to unranked
Slowpoke D to unranked

Ofc there is too much to go into each individual reasons for the rank changes, though we are willing to for the higher ranks. Keep in mind a lot of these are due to rank inflation and/or that the Pokemon didn't deserve the rank in the first place, rather than specific metagame changes.

Discssion Points:
Bouffalant A- to B+
Golduck B to B-
Ninetales B to B-
Chinchou B- to B
Sawsbuck B- to C+
Mightyena B- to C+

Also please still post about Monferno / Stoutland / Floatzel, as we were undecided!
 
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Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
Pancake said this on page 52 btw.

Misdreavus to A- - This thing is just really good right now. Looking at the mons in the B+ rank, Misdreavus and Rapidash, which was previously nominated, feel like they are better than this. Especially with shit like Rotom-S lol.

Misdreavus is an amazing stallbreaker with its Nasty Plot + Taunt set, and it has a lot of setup opportunities due to its decent bulk. After it sets up, it is a very good cleaner, especially when combined with Sticky Web (Missy + Webs is one of my favorite archetypes rn). It even has access to WoW/Twave and can run a decent defensive set with double status, increasing its versatility. To me, it's just way too good for B+.
Misdreavus moves from B+ to...
to... TO...

B. Not A-. B. Everything else I agree about, as B+ before these changes was flooded with 20+ Pokemon. On top of this can we drop...

Electabuzz from B- to C+

Electabuzz has nothing that stands out. Need a faster electric type: use Raichu, Zebstrika or Electrode. Need a bulkier electric type that isn't reliant on eviolite: Use Stunfisk or Rotom-Frost. Having access to Psychic or Cross Chop is not a selling point anymore, and is looking like one of the worst B- Pokemon right now. Chinchou is seeing incredible and effective usage in providing defensive support in cores with Pokemon such as Dodrio or Swanna, and Volbeat is a staple, even though they are seeing less usage, on rain and sun teams, with prankster weather moves and a slow U-turn. Can you honestly say Electabuzz has equal footing when there are so many Pokemon that do its job better? I personally don't think so. This is why I think Electabuzz should go to C+.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Misdreavus moves from B+ to...
to... TO...

B. Not A-. B. Everything else I agree about, as B+ before these changes was flooded with 20+ Pokemon. On top of this can we drop...

Electabuzz from B- to C+

Electabuzz has nothing that stands out. Need a faster electric type: use Raichu, Zebstrika or Electrode. Need a bulkier electric type that isn't reliant on eviolite: Use Stunfisk or Rotom-Frost. Having access to Psychic or Cross Chop is not a selling point anymore, and is looking like one of the worst B- Pokemon right now. Chinchou is seeing incredible and effective usage in providing defensive support in cores with Pokemon such as Dodrio or Swanna, and Volbeat is a staple, even though they are seeing less usage, on rain and sun teams, with prankster weather moves and a slow U-turn. Can you honestly say Electabuzz has equal footing when there are so many Pokemon that do its job better? I personally don't think so. This is why I think Electabuzz should go to C+.
To be brutally honest, please don't nominate mons to drop if you dont understand their niche. It's about as bad as nominating a tier's name to change when you don't know what it stands for. Buzz has a nicely defined if weak enough to make it low ranked niche in that it has the bulk that other fast electrics lack. It can pivot into a lot of defensive threats far more effectively, and things like psychic, cross chop, weather support, or defensive have never been Buzz's niche (I mean it could run Psychic in Machoke meta but that still wasn't what it's for). I don't see a good reason for this mon to drop, if anything I see it on more teams where its niche makes it a good fit than most of the other B- mons save Chinchou and Trapinch because of how specialized they are.
 

Aaronboyer

Something Worth Fighting For
is a Contributor to Smogon
To be brutally honest, please don't nominate mons to drop if you dont understand their niche. It's about as bad as nominating a tier's name to change when you don't know what it stands for. Buzz has a nicely defined if weak enough to make it low ranked niche in that it has the bulk that other fast electrics lack. It can pivot into a lot of defensive threats far more effectively, and things like psychic, cross chop, weather support, or defensive have never been Buzz's niche (I mean it could run Psychic in Machoke meta but that still wasn't what it's for). I don't see a good reason for this mon to drop, if anything I see it on more teams where its niche makes it a good fit than most of the other B- mons save Chinchou and Trapinch because of how specialized they are.
Psychic is Electabuzz's strongest special attack to hit electric resists with that has 100% accuracy. (Ex. Roselia) Sorry I didn't make that clear. Also reliance on the "bulk" you're describing is with eviolite. There are 3 dark resists in the entire tier, as you can see from that same post from Pancake mentioned above. ^^ Knock off is literally everywhere both on STAB users and Non-STAB coverage users. And it isn't out speeding some of the things other electric types can. (Ex. Floatzel and Scarf Dodrio) There are just too many better choices to be B-.
 
Lumineon to B+
Scraggy D to unranked
Seviper (rip) D to unranked
Slowpoke D to unranked

we did it boys

Just wanted touch on a few mons.

Stoutland is in a better spot than it ever has been. It can fit on a lot of teams and do well and is rarely dead weight due to how hard it hits. A Physical wallbreaker that doesn't mind being burned due to Facade is pretty damn amazing. Even the Pokemon we look to switch in onto Stoutland doesn't really handle it very well. Tangela and gourgeist (can't burn it neither unless you wanna take 140 bp facades) takes about 40% from cb return, Mawile is worn down easily and loses to common partners of stoutland either way.

I see no reason for Sawsbuck and Mightyena to be used anymore, they both really fell out of their prime. you get better options in leafeon (sawsbuck), pawniard and cacturne (mightyena) who actually doesn't have a bad matchup against a variety a teams. for example, mightyena struggles against more fat teams because of how weak it is before any moxie boosts and how sucker punch it becomes super sucker punch reliant because of how slow it is. cacturne breaks those teams and has a pretty good matchup against offensive teams due to the lack of switch ins for it. pawniard gets sd and pressures defoggers (unless scald burn r i p). leafeon is just leafeon so sawsbuck is bad. drop these mons. :^)
 
Ok so after reading through my last post i found that most of my reasoning was bad or illogical. So im going to redo my prin nom as well as add in another nom. Im sorry in advance for being repetitive but i feel that my nom was more like a nom for lumineon to rise instead of dropping prin. But first i need to talk about rotom-S. My reasoning for it dropping was biased. When i thought about it at first i thought about how it was in terms of affensive presence on a team. I failed to realise that its defensive set resists more than rotom-F does, allowing it to switch into more mons then rotom-F can. So for this reason i am going to changing my thoughts to rotom-S staying in b+.

Anyway now to redo my noms:

Prinplup to B: Ok, so, as a defogger i find that prinplup gets worn down extremely easy. Upon switching in, it takes rock and or spikes damage and often has to switch in on an attack. This damage eventually adds up, to the stage where you have to sack off your prinplup. Now this will work out well for you if your opponent has no way of setting hazards up after your prinplup dies. However usually players will try to get rid of your hazard removal before letting their hazard setters die. Unlike any other defogger, prinplup has no ways of recovery. Other defoggers such as lumineon, peliper and vullaby have access to lefties, and peli and vullaby have access to run roost. Although prinplup has a higher defense stat then these peli / lumineon, its lack of recovery puts it at a big disadvantage. Another benefit of using lumineon, peliper or vullaby over prinplup is that they have access to uturn. This is so useful for them because they can act as pivots during the battle to give you an upper hand on your opponent. Even though lumineon has no way or recovery after getting its item knocked off, its access to storm drain and uturn gives it a much better reason to use it instead of prinplup. As a defoger I consider prinplup as good at doing its role as peliper is, which is why i feel that prinplup should drop into B rank.

Purugly to B-: Ok so this nom is mainly because i feel that purugly isnt doing as well as it used to, in this meta. I know it is incredable with defiant and its high speed stat and it has fake out + sucker, But after the most recent drops it has gotten worse. Mons like Defensive mawlie and crustle can easily wall it, as well other older normal resistance mons. It also gets worn down easily, especially if you run life orb. When teambuilding i find it hard to give myself a reason to use purugly over a mon like pawn. Pawn takes less damage to rocks and has stab sucker punch, knock off and also has access to swords dance for setting up if needed. Pawn also has more bulk then purugly which is often better then having the higher speed stat, in my opinion.
 
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Ok so after reading through my last post i found that most of my reasoning was bad or illogical. So im going to redo my prin nom as well as add in another nom. Im sorry in advance for being repetitive but i feel that my nom was more like a nom for lumineon to rise instead of dropping prin. But first i need to talk about rotom-S. My reasoning for it dropping was biased. When i thought about it at first i thought about how it was in terms of affensive presence on a team. I failed to realise that its defensive set resists more than rotom-F does, allowing it to switch into more mons then rotom-F can. So for this reason i am going to changing my thoughts to rotom-S staying in b+.

Anyway now to redo my noms:

Prinplup to B: Ok, so, as a defogger i find that prinplup gets worn down extremely easy. Upon switching in, it takes rock and or spikes damage and often has to switch in on an attack. This damage eventually adds up, to the stage where you have to sack off your prinplup. Now this will work out well for you if your opponent has no way of setting hazards up after your prinplup dies. However usually players will try to get rid of your hazard removal before letting their hazard setters die. Unlike any other defogger, prinplup has no ways of recovery. Other defoggers such as lumineon, peliper and vullaby have access to lefties, and peli and vullaby have access to run roost. Although prinplup has a higher defense stat then these peli / lumineon, its lack of recovery puts it at a big disadvantage. Another benefit of using lumineon, peliper or vullaby over prinplup is that they have access to uturn. This is so useful for them because they can act as pivots during the battle to give you an upper hand on your opponent. Even though lumineon has no way or recovery after getting its item knocked off, its access to storm drain and uturn gives it a much better reason to use it instead of prinplup. As a defoger I consider prinplup as good at doing its role as peliper is, which is why i feel that prinplup should drop into B rank.

Purugly to B-: Ok so this nom is mainly because i feel that purugly isnt doing as well as it used to, in this meta. I know it is incredable with defiant and its high speed stat and it has fake out + sucker, But after the most recent drops it has gotten worse. Mons like Defensive mawlie and crustle can easily wall it, as well other older normal resistance mons. It also gets worn down easily, especially if you run life orb. When teambuilding i find it hard to give myself a reason to use purugly over a mon like pawn. Pawn takes less damage to rocks and has stab sucker punch, knock off and also has access to swords dance for setting up if needed. Pawn also has more bulk then purugly which is often better then having the higher speed stat, in my opinion.
I abstain on Prinplup; that thing is really odd for me, I feel its easily overwhelmed and is pressured to do what it is aimed to do. I simply can't use it effectively but I've seen plenty put in work so...

Purugly can't drop. Wow, I know it was actually me who brought that up but using it a bit made me quickly change my opinion. Purugly is one of the scariest mons to offense I've ever seen. It's speed tier is a blessing, being capable of outspeeding a good part of the meta; not that the things that it can't outspeed matter though, it's got two priority moves that are often in its sets and heavily dents ALL non-boosted things that are faster than it (some boosted, such as SS crustle, outspeed and can shrug some damage off). It's got access to U-turn and can just chip its checks around while grabbing offensive momentum. Even though its generally dead weight against bulkier builds (unless you use it with Toxic Spikes, which is awesome too), it cannot only U-turn on things and get chip damage, but Knock Off can be ran to scare way eviolite users and chip normal checks. The drops haven't made it worse either: It checks Cacturne fairly competently, checks Rotom-S, non-curse Muk after some damage... Also, Offensive Mawile is pressured as hell when it switches in on too many Fake Outs and U-turns, while Defensive hates getting knocked and actually, a +1 Life Orb-boosted return does almost as much as CB Stout's Superpower. Yeah, this thing is really solid as of now and deserves to stay.
 

Take Azelfie

More flags more fun

C+ ---> B

While this may seem a little radical, Muk is really changing the meta in favour of this Pokemon since Steel-types are one of two good answers to Muk and of course they are both weak as hell to Marowak. And I'm not entirely sure if it is just me, but this Pokemon feels a lot more splashable recently as you aren't really forced the run like Trick Room or Sticky Web to get it working efficiently, it doesn't need it. In fact you could probably just run something like Grumpig or Clefairy to give you some speed control if you want it. Marowak also forces some really bad situation for the opponent if they switch out on a Substitute because you basically get a free kill everytime since nothing is gonna live two hits from this monster.


B- ---> B/B+

It's on the same boat as Marowak but instead of just killing off things in general, Trapinch can specialize in checking specific threats with is very important to stuff like Curse Muk or Mr. Mime. I don't think much really needs to be said, except that Trapinch is at its peak right now due to Muk's influence in the tier.
 
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Anty

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Another update!!
Floatzel S to A+
Stoutland A+ to S
Monferno A+ to S
Simisage B+ to B
Beheeyem B+ to B
Golduck B to B-
Gourgeist-S B to B-
Ninetales B to B-
Mightyena B- to C+

There are several good posts describing why Floatzel (1), Monferno (1, 2), and Stoutland (1, 2) changed ranks. As a more brief explantion;
Stoutland is the best wallbreaker in the tier right now thanks to its pure strength, between Return and Superpower there are very few Pokemon that can switch in, and only one has actual recovery. Its solid bulk means it still has a good matchup vs offense, as it often finds opportunities to come in and get kills. Its effect on the metagame is obvious considering Normal resists are required on every team, and Stoutland especially causes a high usage of Mawile and Metang, and offensive teams are required to use something faster than can KO it.

Monferno rose due to the combination of its offensive and defensive presence. No other Pokemon has the ability to switch into a range of top threats and still provide a decent amount of offensive support due to its strong STABs and access to priority. Most of its switch ins have a Stealth Rock weakness or lack of recovery which can be abused by U-turn, whereas Swords Dance sets can be unstoppable with the right support.

Floatzel may have decent coverage and unpredictability, however its range of checks means it is often forced to predict. This results in it being much more threatening on paper than in practise, but Water immunities and resists are good right now meaning you do not have to carefully alter your team to add a solid answer. Additionally faster Pokemon, Choice Scarf users, and priority are especcially common right now.

Discussion Points
Golem A+ to S
Trapinch B- to B
Marowak C+ to B-

Also please make your own (educated) nominations!
 
One controversial nomination today.

Cacturne -> A+/A
Cacturne has lost its new toy syndrome, and the meta has adapted well to it. Defensive teams carry good checks like Muk and Clefairy, offensive teams carry fast mons with status moves like Rapidash or mons with Substitute like Rotom-F. It's overly reliant on Sucker Punch. It's weak to opposing priority (other than Aqua Jet) (Jungle Fox pointed out to me that other than Monferno Mach Punch and a few normal-type priority attacks from various mons, Cacturne isn't that weak to priority as it is immune to Aqua Jet and resists Shadow Sneak and other Sucker Punches.) It's frail as hell. Monferno is everywhere, and as long as a player preserves their Monferno at all throughout the match, Cacturne will basically never sweep. In addition to that, nearly every mon with U-turn threatens the hell out of Cacturne, which includes several extremely common Defoggers in Lumineon, Vibrava, and Vullaby. Don't get me wrong, Cacturne is still a gigantic threat, but I don't believe it is worthy of S-rank anymore - you simply need to prepare for it like any other threat in the meta.
 
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Just my thoughts on the latest Noms
Golem A+ to S Disagree

So Golem to S seemed like coming completely out of nowhere to me. Having been the most common lead for like atleast year, the meta game has adapted well for it and as such, checks or counters to it are not hard to come by. It's set is often fairly easy to spot from team preview with it's lead sets being more common on Offensive builds and the spdef set being more common on Balance/BO teams, though it's Band set can suprise the opponent and get a suprise kill.
Lead golem has plenty anti-leads, here mons like Lead Rampardos and Bullet Seed Jumpluff come to mind as well as mons like (jolly) Crustle either setting up rocks, spikes and breaking it's sturdy (unless the Golem decides not to setup rocks). Spdef Golem is rather subpar for an S rank mon, as it doesn't want to come in against average hp ice more than once, gets 2hko'd by Grumpig's Focusblast, fears hp water/hp grass coverage and unresistant moves (and some resisted moves looking at you stoutland) still doing a decent chunk, it's rather easy to break over the course of a match. These Golem sets also suffer from the popularity of VoltTurn with let's say Monferno anti-leading Golem clicking U-Turn and bringing in a mon like Swanna immediately threatening to KO or, in this case, remove to hazard it just setup. The band set has been hyped up recently, but if you ask me it's somewhat outclassed by band Relicanth, which while having 30 base points less in attack and lacking and the ground type as well as Explosion OHKOing def vibrava which would otherwise be a GSI, in my opinion makes up for it with a better stab move in Head Smash over Stone Edge allowing it to break Gourgeist-Super more consistently having a 98,8% chance to 2hko leftover variants after rocks, while Golem strait-up can't 2hko geist with lefties and relies on SR to 2hko colbur (Relicanth doing 52,4 - 62% while Golem does 42.7 - 50.5%). Furthermore Relicanth has better bulk and speed, speed-tying with Cacturne and it has STAB Waterfall which hits ground types SE, a very common defensive typing in PU as well as its coverage not having the side effect of sacrificing your own mon in the process. Band still faces the same problems as other sets too in that once it has done it's done it has got the kill the opponent can just as easily revenge kill it with a bulky wall breaker of it's own, like specs lapras, which is, again, possible due to Golem's incredibly low speed, and force a sac or two of it's own.
Overall it's a great and versatile mon, but it's just not on par with the other S rank mons which mind you are the behemoth that is Rotom-Frost, who's bolt beam coverage + the ability to cripple any of the few switchs ins with trick scarf and wall breaking subsets has Balance cower in fear; Stoutland, who has been a top threat in pu for years know and is therefore the reason why to this day every Balance/BO team must to carry a normal resist in order to function properly; Monferno, who I would say ties this tier together as its ONLY relevant fighting type with unrivalled versatility and role comprehension, being able to fit on every team archetype making it's absolute omnipresence no surprise and Cacturne who has swooped up the entire tier in disarray, pressuring both Defense and Offence with 115 in both attack and special attack with amazing dual stab, coverage in focus blast or super power and the rare poison jab and deadly priority in Sucker Punch having a chance to OHKO mons like ninjask and chatot from full health without investment.
Trapinch B- to B Abstain

Though i was the one who argued for it rising to B- in the first place, i haven't used it much since then and therefore i feel like can't say whether or not it can rise anymore. I will say that from my outdated experience it's extremely on par with Chinchou and a rise for it should mean a rise for Chinchou.
Marowak C+ to B- Agree

I've been using the sub 3 attacks set on BO lately and i must say it does not disappoint. Though it's speed tier is lacking it's amazing (thick club boosted) 568 attack, good physical bulk and it's ability to do so without losing health every turn of the ability to switch between moves certainly help make up for that. It's signature move Bonemarang greatly helps it at getting past sash/sturdy mons, but if you think the chance to miss makes it not worth it, you can just run EQ instead, it's excellent coverage in Stone Edge and Knock Off gives it the ability to Ohko or 2hko almost the entire tier and, due to knock off, makes many eviolite dependant physicall walls like Tangela, Vibrava and Quilladin think twice about switching in. All of this makes it a threatening wallbreaker. Once you combine that with the fact that it could setup a sub on all the switches it forces and it gives an idea of threat this mon can be, certainly on par with other B- mons like Golduck, Kingler and Klang.

It's getting late so I'll do my thoughts on Cac dropping another day.
 
Golem to S
is pretty good


Alright, before I start I wanna mention that mons have set viabilities too. Nominating a mon will move the whole mon to the nominated tier but sometimes just one set or multiple viable sets can be good enough to get that mon considered for rise. For instance, band golem, WP lead, and spdef golem are all viable sets but Golem's ability to run them all or perhaps just one very effectively is what will push it to S or keep it at A+. In this case I believe the lefties offensive rocker w/sucker punch is the most viable set right now and is one of the main contributors to an S rank consideration. I think the other sets are less viable but still contribute to the nom in the fact that they allow golem to fit other playstyles and builds, thereby making golem a more useful mon in general.

Ima make this quick so that you can go use more Golem's on PU ladder. Golem is better than Stunfisk, Prinplup, Relicanth, Probopass, Metang, Camerupt, and Gabite for several reasons and here they are. It gives you an electric immunity, a normal/flying resist, a priority user, and reliable NON-PASSIVE rocker with great stab and a high attack. Every other rocker I mentioned doesn't fill out two of those requirements (with the exception of bullet punch metang but why) and your offensive team will have to account for these requirements with other mons. Often times they're more passive or less reliable electric immunities like chinchou or raichu and that now forces you to run 2 mons for something one could have done or to make harder decisions in the face of volt/turn.

TL;DR: Golem is the best we got and it makes teambuilding easier because it has all of the qualities of a good rocker. That and he didn't leave you like that scumbag Piloswine did in XY.
 

LordST

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Golem A+ to S

So I've been thinking about making this nom for awhile now and I do think its deserving of S rank. Golem has been the premium stealth rock setter for a long time now. It provides amazing role compression no matter which set you are running. the combination of an electric check, bird check, and normal check is something that nothing else in the tier does as well as Golem can. Golem does have a lot of switch ins, however the rise in popularity of Choice Band reduces this number to only 3 GSIs. In addition, tank Golem often runs Toxic which can cripple bulky grasses and Vibrava. In response to RivalET's point about the meta adapting to it with anti lead sets, I think this only proves how centralizing Golem is. The use of things like Surf Rampardos, Bullet seed Leafeon/Jumpluff, and Taunt Air Balloon Magnet Rise Probopass are because Golem is such a massive threat. On the point of Banded Relicanth outclassing Banded Golem I'm going to have to disagree. The reason Banded Golem is so good is because of how effective a wallbreaker it is on top of being a great check to Electrics, Birds, and Normals. What this means is Golem finds a lot more opportunities to come in and fire off massively damaging STAB attacks. Relicanth can't come in on Electrics like this. Golem also has gets more use out of its filler moves. Sucker Punch can clean late game or catch something off guard. Explosion can give you great Momentum and eliminate something like Vibrava. Overall I think Golem deserves this rise because of its massive influence on teambuilding and the meta in general.

Trapinch B- to B+

Trapinch is an amazing mon that when partnered with threats like Scarf Dodrio can be incredibly effective. However I'm gonna have to disagree with it rising up to B. While it can trap and beat/weaken a large number of threats like Zebstrika, Probopass, Electrode, Ninetales, and Grumpig I think it's easy to take advantage of and requires a lot of prediction to pull off. I also just think it's not quite on par with the rest of B. Trapinch is perfectly fine where it is IMO.

Cacturne S to A+

Cacturne is overhyped. I find it actually struggles to do anything versus well built balanced and bulky offense squads that often carry really good checks like Vullaby, Clefairy, Articuno, Muk, and of course Monferno. The rise in popularity of Lumineon also doesn't help Caturne very much as it forces you to either almost lose your Cacturne or give the opponent a ton of momentum. Cacturne also needs a lot of support to function well versus anything but Hyper Offensive with its multitude of weaknesses.
 
I would like to nom Hippopatas to B+. It gets access to whirlwind and has decent bulk which make it a defensive monster that can phaze things out but can help opposing Stoutland get a speed boost. That is another reason it should rise, Stoutland. There is no other mon that can setup sand in this meta so it is very useful in that regard. It is also a very good rocker with it's bulk. Although it is weak to Knock Off so are many pokemon in this meta with all the evolites running around. It also doesn't have to run Sand and can be a good pivot because of this. Even though it is weak to the common Water and Grass types it can have support that is easy to use for this. It also has reliable recovery and can do some damage with it's 72 attack stat and EQ with Stab. It has flaws that keeping from rising further but I feel that these reasons should allow it up to B+ rank. The only things I see outclassing it are the Simis but they are outclass in many ways. It also can Scare out many threats such as Monferno and Golem unless it is Banded Golem. While weak to Status so are many mons weak to Toxic but it can heal up itself. It can deal with Spatkers and provides and electric immunity which can be useful and many teams as more of a defensive all be it a passive pokemon.
 

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I'm going to touch on the current slate with regards to the recently released usage stats for the final 4 rounds of PU Open. I won't touch on Marowak, because I just haven't seen or used it.
I've been an advocate of Golem to S for a while now, so I'm glad to see this has become a discussion topic. As evidenced by Golem topping the usage chart for rounds 5-8, the most competitive rounds, of PU Open, Golem has solidified itself as the most consistent and splashable Stealth Rock user in the tier, whilst also establishing itself as a powerful wallbreaker thanks to its newly popular Choice Band set. Golem's ability to compress common necessary defensive roles such as checking Normal- and Electric-types whilst also acting as an independent offensive threat that requires no support from teammates to be effective makes it hard to even pinpoint exactly what it does best, thats how versatile and effective it is.

As far as I'm concerned, points made by RivalET which aim to illustrate the fact that Lead Golem's previous popularity has lead to there being vast and plentiful counterplay avenues that most teams now naturally incorporate to deal with the lead set, completely misses the entire reasoning as for why Golem is even being considered for a rise. Golem isn't best as a dedicated lead anymore, and definitely isn't as popular or effective utilising that set as it used to be. I'm not sure exactly which set you'd consider to be the 'main' set, but when I went back and looked at the 8 times in which I used Golem during my PU Open run; I used Choice Band 4 times, and I used a SpD variants 4 times. I used Golem 6 times in my final 9 games, and not once did I use a lead variant. As far as the statement that Choice Band Golem is outclassed by Choice Band Relicanth, that statement is about as False as my name. I'm not going to go into too much detail disproving this point, but when you consider that Golem has priority, checks Electric-types, and can actually utilise sturdy, you can quickly see why this argument falls apart. Let's not even mention that Choice Band Relicanth is hilariously weak if it can't lock into Head Smash, making it far more predictable than Golem, which is threatening with its STAB EdgeQuake alongside coverage options like Superpower to nail Air Balloon Probopass, or Explosion to OHKO would-be counters such as Physically Defensive Vibrava.
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 270-320 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 408-482 (96.6 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 338-402 (104.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 159-187 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not sure if I was the only one to be surprised by this, but Trapinch was used only 4 times in the final rounds of PU Open, which seems a bit low considering how powerful trapping is. This was especially surprising to me because I used Trapinch 4 times in the finals, and therefore I must've been the only person to use Trapinch at all over the final 4 rounds.

In my opinion RestTalk is far and away the best set for Trapinch, and it's not even close. RestTalk Trapinch still adequately deals with the likes of Zebstrika, Electrode, Muk, Probopass, and Stunfisk whilst also situationally dealing with the likes of Kadabra, Grumpig, and Mr. Mime. However, RestTalk also allows Trapinch to trap non-Seed Bomb Gourgeist, Audino, and Chinchou 3 Pokemon which are often centerpieces of a defensive backbone. Being able to trap and remove Pokemon such as this can be instrumental in the outcome of a game. RestTalk also has the added bonus of allowing Trapinch to stay healthy throughout the match, which in some cases allows it to trap multiple targets, something that regular Trapinch could never dream of doing. I used RestTalk Trapinch in 4 of the 5 finals games I played, and found use for it in a variety of situations, trapping the likes of Chinchou, Gourgeist, Stunfisk, and Kadabra. I found RestTalk's reliability in trapping Chinchou to be the thing I valued the most, as it allowed Trapinch to be a great asset to pave the way for Pokemon such as Ice Beam Articuno, or Zebstrika. In a similar way to how I described Chinchou in my last nomination for that, Trapinch is just way too viable of a Pokemon compared to the Pokemon that it's sitting next to, and whilst its role may be simple and predictable, it still performs that role to an adequate enough level to deserve a rise.
I still am yet to actually have the desire to use Cacturne, but Vullaby, Monferno, Clefairy, and Muk are all consistently popular right now, and the whole new toy syndrome seems to have worn off. I don't care if this drops or stays.

Nominations:
This is more of just a follow up. I nominated Chinchou for a rise a while back, and it became a discussion topic. However, nobody made a post about it, and it seems like it was just forgotten about. Per the latest PU Open usage stats, Chinchou was the 11th most used Pokemon with a healthy 56% win percentage, garnering more usage, and and a higher win percentage than the likes of Metang, Floatzel, Mr. Mime, and Zebstrika. Chinchou continues to be an effective Pokemon despite how predictable it is, and the role it performs is one that it has been relatively consistent in doing so for a while now. Considering this Pokemon was so high in usage, it's clearly more viable than any of the other Pokemon that it sits in the subrank with, and it seems unfair to have a Pokemon that is garnering high usage, and success in tour play to be a Pokemon ranked so low.
Talking about another Pokemon currently punching above its weight, Clefairy finished 4th in usage, with an absurd 63% win percentage. I'm not sure I'd get enough support for it to rise to A+, but it should at least rise through the A subrank a bit. Clefairy is one of a very small number of Pokemon that can literally win games completely independently and I think it's pretty fair to say that the recent increase in the popularity of Pokemon such as Muk, Choice Band Golem, or even RestTalk Metang (which is a really cool set btw) are all, in some capacity, influenced by just how centralising Clefairy can be in the teambuilder. Clefairy is one of the few Pokemon, alike most S-rank Pokemon that demands that you dedicate slots to adequately prepare for it when building. It's easily one of the most centralising Pokemon in the A subrank and I think a small rise is warranted.
 

ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus
I'm going to touch on the current slate with regards to the recently released usage stats for the final 4 rounds of PU Open. I won't touch on Marowak, because I just haven't seen or used it.
I've been an advocate of Golem to S for a while now, so I'm glad to see this has become a discussion topic. As evidenced by Golem topping the usage chart for rounds 5-8, the most competitive rounds, of PU Open, Golem has solidified itself as the most consistent and splashable Stealth Rock user in the tier, whilst also establishing itself as a powerful wallbreaker thanks to its newly popular Choice Band set. Golem's ability to compress common necessary defensive roles such as checking Normal- and Electric-types whilst also acting as an independent offensive threat that requires no support from teammates to be effective makes it hard to even pinpoint exactly what it does best, thats how versatile and effective it is.

As far as I'm concerned, points made by RivalET which aim to illustrate the fact that Lead Golem's previous popularity has lead to there being vast and plentiful counterplay avenues that most teams now naturally incorporate to deal with the lead set, completely misses the entire reasoning as for why Golem is even being considered for a rise. Golem isn't best as a dedicated lead anymore, and definitely isn't as popular or effective utilising that set as it used to be. I'm not sure exactly which set you'd consider to be the 'main' set, but when I went back and looked at the 8 times in which I used Golem during my PU Open run; I used Choice Band 4 times, and I used a SpD variants 4 times. I used Golem 6 times in my final 9 games, and not once did I use a lead variant. As far as the statement that Choice Band Golem is outclassed by Choice Band Relicanth, that statement is about as False as my name. I'm not going to go into too much detail disproving this point, but when you consider that Golem has priority, checks Electric-types, and can actually utilise sturdy, you can quickly see why this argument falls apart. Let's not even mention that Choice Band Relicanth is hilariously weak if it can't lock into Head Smash, making it far more predictable than Golem, which is threatening with its STAB EdgeQuake alongside coverage options like Superpower to nail Air Balloon Probopass, or Explosion to OHKO would-be counters such as Physically Defensive Vibrava.
252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 270-320 (63.9 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Stunfisk: 408-482 (96.6 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 186-220 (57.4 - 67.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Metang: 338-402 (104.3 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

---

252+ Atk Choice Band Relicanth Waterfall vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 159-187 (57.4 - 67.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

252+ Atk Choice Band Golem Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Gabite: 241-285 (87 - 102.8%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
I'm not sure if I was the only one to be surprised by this, but Trapinch was used only 4 times in the final rounds of PU Open, which seems a bit low considering how powerful trapping is. This was especially surprising to me because I used Trapinch 4 times in the finals, and therefore I must've been the only person to use Trapinch at all over the final 4 rounds.

In my opinion RestTalk is far and away the best set for Trapinch, and it's not even close. RestTalk Trapinch still adequately deals with the likes of Zebstrika, Electrode, Muk, Probopass, and Stunfisk whilst also situationally dealing with the likes of Kadabra, Grumpig, and Mr. Mime. However, RestTalk also allows Trapinch to trap non-Seed Bomb Gourgeist, Audino, and Chinchou 3 Pokemon which are often centerpieces of a defensive backbone. Being able to trap and remove Pokemon such as this can be instrumental in the outcome of a game. RestTalk also has the added bonus of allowing Trapinch to stay healthy throughout the match, which in some cases allows it to trap multiple targets, something that regular Trapinch could never dream of doing. I used RestTalk Trapinch in 4 of the 5 finals games I played, and found use for it in a variety of situations, trapping the likes of Chinchou, Gourgeist, Stunfisk, and Kadabra. I found RestTalk's reliability in trapping Chinchou to be the thing I valued the most, as it allowed Trapinch to be a great asset to pave the way for Pokemon such as Ice Beam Articuno, or Zebstrika. In a similar way to how I described Chinchou in my last nomination for that, Trapinch is just way too viable of a Pokemon compared to the Pokemon that it's sitting next to, and whilst its role may be simple and predictable, it still performs that role to an adequate enough level to deserve a rise.
I still am yet to actually have the desire to use Cacturne, but Vullaby, Monferno, Clefairy, and Muk are all consistently popular right now, and the whole new toy syndrome seems to have worn off. I don't care if this drops or stays.

Nominations:
This is more of just a follow up. I nominated Chinchou for a rise a while back, and it became a discussion topic. However, nobody made a post about it, and it seems like it was just forgotten about. Per the latest PU Open usage stats, Chinchou was the 11th most used Pokemon with a healthy 56% win percentage, garnering more usage, and and a higher win percentage than the likes of Metang, Floatzel, Mr. Mime, and Zebstrika. Chinchou continues to be an effective Pokemon despite how predictable it is, and the role it performs is one that it has been relatively consistent in doing so for a while now. Considering this Pokemon was so high in usage, it's clearly more viable than any of the other Pokemon that it sits in the subrank with, and it seems unfair to have a Pokemon that is garnering high usage, and success in tour play to be a Pokemon ranked so low.
Talking about another Pokemon currently punching above its weight, Clefairy finished 4th in usage, with an absurd 63% win percentage. I'm not sure I'd get enough support for it to rise to A+, but it should at least rise through the A subrank a bit. Clefairy is one of a very small number of Pokemon that can literally win games completely independently and I think it's pretty fair to say that the recent increase in the popularity of Pokemon such as Muk, Choice Band Golem, or even RestTalk Metang (which is a really cool set btw) are all, in some capacity, influenced by just how centralising Clefairy can be in the teambuilder. Clefairy is one of the few Pokemon, alike most S-rank Pokemon that demands that you dedicate slots to adequately prepare for it when building. It's easily one of the most centralising Pokemon in the A subrank and I think a small rise is warranted.
I would like to point out that Ghost-Types can not be trapped, so it is impossible for Trapinch to trap Gourgeist, regardless of that I would also like to Trapinch rise again, as like others have said it is quite effective in it's role, leading the way for many of the tiers offensive threats to finish games rather easily, not to mention the mind games having Trapinch on a team can create, not much more i can touch on that hasn't been already but I defiantly support a Trapinch rise.
 

Golem to S - Disagree

Although Golem is the premier stealth rocker in the tier right now with the abilty to compress its roles and act as a Normal resist and also an Electric check I disagree with the move up to S and I believe it should stay at the high end of A+.
The role compression invovled in using Golem can be too much for it to handle sometimes and I find that most games when using it it's hard to make it effectively complete all of it's jobs. This is because its weak to a lot of common coverage options from Pokemon it's supposed to beat, both Stoutland and Zebstrika come to mind as Superpower actually has a chance to OHKO SpD Golem after Stealth rock and Zebstrika can hit it with a HP Ice or HP Grass to severely weaken it too and this can make it hard for Golem to do it's other jobs like set up Stealth Rock. Lead Golem is pretty reliable at setting up Stealth Rock and preventing removal but as RivalET said , anti-leads do exist and I don't think you should discount them just because Lead Golem isn't the main set. I don't have much to say about Band Golem because I haven't tried it out yet but powerful EdgeQuake seems good. With that said, I think Golem is still a really great mon with a lot of Offensive and Defensive capabilities and that's why it's deserving of it's A+ rank but I believe a move to S would be too much considering the threats in S rank define the metagame and require little to no team support whereas Golem likes having back up answers to the mons I previously mentioned. Overall, I believe Golem should stay A+. Thanks for reading :]
 
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Anty

let's drop
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Just a small update today!
Changes:
Trapinch B- to B
Marowak C+ to B-

Additionally, the rank orders A+ to B+ have been changed to reflect the current metagame better.

Discussions:
Cacturne S to A+
Golem A+ to S
Clefairy A to A+
Mawile A to A+
Metang A to A-
Audino A- to A
Lumineon B+ to A-
Politoed B+ to A-
 

TJ

Banned deucer.
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Cacturne S to A+ Agree

cacturne-female.gif


I agree with the Cacturne's nomination to A+, because Cacturne is really overhyped in terms of its prowess. Cacturne really struggles vs Balance and BO and it's difficult, for it to utilize its prowess capabilities vs Pokémon such as Lumineon, Clefairy, Muk, Articuno, Monferno, and Vullaby. Cacturne isn't as overcentralizing to all playstyles as it was when it was first introduced to tier; the meta has adapted well to check it. In conclusion, Cacturne is more defined as A+ rank Material in the PU metagame.

Golem A+ to S Agree

golem.gif

I agree with Golem's nomination to S,
because Golem's role compression is amazing. Being able to be a normal resist, electric resist, bird check, and stealth rocker, is really outstanding. Tank Golem fulfils all the roles as mentioned. 224 Evs in Special Defense, and 252 Evs in HP is important because it gives Golem mixed bulk, and with that bulk it can tank hits from a vast majority of Pu threats. The remaining 32 attack Evs are used to OHKO Pawniard. Golem can also run a Choice band set that has grown in popularity recently, being able to nearly 2HKO its general switch ins. Golem has also portrayed success in the most competitive rounds of the PU open. In conclusion, Golem's versatility and effectiveness throughout the PU metagame makes it deserving of the S rank.

(Going to work on another noms later)
 

HotFuzzBall

fuzzy-chan \(ㆁヮㆁ✿)
is an Artist
Mawile A to A+ Agree
Being one of the few reliable switch ins to popular mons such as Stoutland (Resisting STAB and also having Intimidate), also being a good switch in to other mons like Cacturne, Dodrio and Vullaby. Mawile can also set up rocks with it's Physically Defensive set and have access to Knock Off to cripple mons like Roselia, Clefairy and Vullaby who rely on their Eviolite. Not too sure about Offensive Mawile since I have not used it since I believe the Defensive set is more optimal with Stoutland running around all the time. Overall, there's a lot going for Mawile to warrant a rise.
Lumineon B+ to A- Agree
Probably the tier's most underrated Defogger (with Pelipper being overhyped). Lumineon is a great choice as a Defogger due to its Water immunity (Storm Drain) and it also does not take super-effective damage from rocks. Lumineon however does lack reliable recovery but, being able to check mons like Cacturne, Floatzel and Simipour much better than Pelipper or Swanna since it can take any random HP Electrics and it scares off Cacturne with U-Turn. Lumineon can also check leads like Golem better than Pelipper/Swanna since it lacks the Rock weakness that those birds hold. Overall, Lumineon is quite the splashable mon in the tier, and honestly, it's easier to fit into teams better then Pelipper.

Cacturne S to A+ Agree
This mon was severely overhyped when it dropped to PU. Being overly reliant on Sucker Punch makes it very easy to play around with, also the popularity of Lumineon makes it harder for Cacturne to set up due to the threat of U-Turn. Also other popular mons like Clefairy, Muk, Monferno, etc. running around gives Cacturne a much harder time to do its job. Like what False said, the "new toy syndrome" for this mon has worn off, it can drop now. Don't get me wrong , Cacturne is still a potent threat in the tier, it's just not S- or over-centralizing anymore imo.
 

Josh

=P
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Meh I'm not a fan of a mawile rise. On paper it has a lot of useful resist and checks a large amount of the meta, but in practice I find it extremely underwhelming. It's easy af to switch into and play around, and due to its really low speed it takes a lot even beating the things it beats. Its definitely a decent mon but more on the level of stuff like Roselia and Pawniard, the A+ mons like Muk and Leafeon are just a step above it imo.
 
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PTF

girl
is a Tiering Contributor
Mawile from A to A+; disagree,




The pros

- Reliable switch in to normal type mons including the popular and powerful Stoutland as well as Dodrio and Ursaring.
- Has remarkable physical defence + Intimidate to take on popular physical attackers in the current meta including physical Cacturne.
- Has great offensive power with its Sheer-Force boosted attacks + either its SD set or mixed wallbreaker set that can destroy common defensive cores in the meta.
- Can SR, has access to good priority with Sucker Punch.

The cons
- With base-50 speed, Mawile is quite slow and can be easily revenge killed. Although it has access to Sucker Punch, Mawile's overreliance on Sucker Punch against faster pokemon can be easily exploited.
- Mawile is quite frail in its special defences. It is easily 2HKO'd by PU's popular and relevant special attackers including Rotom-F, Cacturne, Mr. Mime, Grumpig and Zebstrika.
- As Josh has mentioned, it is quite easy to play around and 'it takes a lot even beating the things it beats.'

252 SpA Rotom-F Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Life Orb Cacturne Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 274-324 (90.1 - 106.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Mr. Mime Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 175-207 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252+ SpA Grumpig Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 179-211 (58.8 - 69.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Life Orb Zebstrika Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mawile: 222-263 (73 - 86.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery


Conclusion


Mawile is a valuable mon and is quite decent in the current meta. I think it's good but its poor speed and poor special defences hinder it from gracing the ranks of mons like Floatzel, Golem or Mr. Mime. At the top of A seems to be a fair place to belong, which is why I disagree with it rising.
 

pancake

movement and location
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> A+: Agree

I don't feel like I can say anything about this that hasn't already been said but like yeah it's kind of lost its "new toy syndrome" and it's not as splashable as a lot of the other pokes in A+.

> S: Disagree

Yes, this is controversial but I really don't think this belongs in S! It's very splashable, it uses Stealth Rock. It's an Electric Immunity and Normal resist. This is all great. However, there's nothing really that special about Golem. It faces competition from stuff like Mawile and Stunfisk, and a lot of the Normals that it is supposed to check (Stoutland) can beat it if predicted correctly, which isn't that hard to do. In addition, the rise of stuff like Calm Mind Clefairy and Leafeon has really hurt Golem because Golem is setup fodder for CM Clef. This mon is really good, but something just keeps it out of S for me. Just barely.

edit: False wanted me to clarify that I meant spdef golem >.>

My own nom:

> Low A / High A-: We were discussing this on discord due to the Mawile nomination. We were talking about how splashable Mawile is and how many different sets that Mawile can run. However, Pawniard has one set, and as well as it can utilize that one set, it makes it significantly worse than Mawile. Even though it benefits from metagame trends such as the rise of Muk and Clefairy, but it suffers from other metagame trends, such as the popularity of Probopass and Monferno. If Mawile is significantly better than it, why are they close together, is what I'm asking.
 
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MZ

And now for something completely different
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Lemme add to the talk about Golem, since I've seen a far more even split of opinions talking to people in PMs and the room and discord than this thread would suggest. Golem does not deserve S rank. Honestly, when I first heard the nom I barely even took it seriously, the fact is that this boils down to Golem being a good mon, but one that perfectly fits its current position. I won't deny that it's effective, or call it terrible, or anything like that, but what I understand most people have gathered around as the main movement to S rank is how splashable that is. So let's forget about Golem and look at Piloswine (sorry relatively new people but I think this really is a great parallel to help get my point across). Piloswine was consistently one of the best and splashable Pokemon to fit on a team for a very long time, certainly the best Stealth Rock user in the tier. It checked a ton of common threats, had barely anything which could reliably switch into and beat it 1v1 all the time, could annoy stuff with some strong priority, set a Speed benchmark for a number of defensive Pokemon, could even run a surprise set with Freeze Dry (and occasionally even more epic things), and was certainly comparatively better than Golem is now (it's being taken much more seriously as a contender for top 10 titans for example but I don't believe anybody will disagree with that). Piloswine was the best Stealth Rock user in the tier, but it was never an S rank Pokemon. Obviously the circumstances are different, such as back then we had Poliwrath on every team (or throh, costa/barb, etc depending on the meta), I understand that. But Piloswine's drawbacks are much the same as Golem's here. Low base speed and some common weaknesses made it generally fine to handle from an offensive standpoint. Pokemon that lost to it such as Rotom-F could adapt a slightly new and still incredibly strong set, this is basically where SubWisp came from. Although Piloswine checked some hugely important things including Sneasel, Mega Glalie, Garbodor, Scyther, and Golem, its lack of recovery really held it back from always dominating the match. Additionally, being the best Stealth Rock user in the tier wasn't the end all be all niche, we had tons of other good stuff in high ranks like Golem, Carracosta, and Probopass.
Does this not sound pretty much exactly like Golem? It's an excellent mon, hugely splashable, has unpredictability, sets speed tiers, and the best rocker, and I won't deny that. But it has these consistent flaws that keep it from being too out of hand and always have really. It's not exactly difficult to check this mon offensively with your everyday stuff, for every Pokemon that Golem beats there's another that can OHKO it assuming SR are up. Its base Speed is certainly lacking along with that defensive typing. The Pokemon that Golem reliably stops (Dodrio I suppose is the best) are far fewer than the amount that it generally checks but then if they pull out the HP Water Zebstrika or catch it with a Superpower, it clearly faces issues. And no, it doesn't have to perfectly counter Stoutland to be good, but I'm just trying to demonstrate how it's a Pokemon that can be taken advantage of with proper preparation (aside from running some of its full counters like Tang, Quill, Brava, etc. which do it no favors either). And again, I'm just not that impressed with it being the best SRer. I've said it a few times, but that would be a lot more impressive if I felt it was the right mon for the job on maybe 50% of my teams or more, just that incredibly easy to splash on. As it is, I don't. We have about 15 rockers from S to B+, and I believe Golem is the most splashable but this is also being a bit overstated because it's very easy to slap it onto a team and rewards lazy teambuilding. Not necessarily bad at all, but it's only that splashable if all you do as a builder is shove it on again and again rather than just using anything else and changing your builds to something actually different (like me and Scarf Leafeon!). Finally, I don't think Golem is that centralizing. This is really the main point of its weaknesses and low base Speed, not just to throw them up as meaningless statistics but to point to them as a factor of this. Golem can absolutely be prepared for with the same type of prep as other high tier but not S rank threats that Leafeon or Monferno Grumpig demand. This is the most subjective part of any VR debate, but I do not believe Golem has that kind of influence on the metagame, especially compared to other A+ mons in Floatzel, Leafeon, and Muk, and nothing I've read here has convinced me otherwise in the slightest. Do not raise this.

As a side note, I personally think that a 5 mon S rank would be pushing it. And yes, Cacturne has been suggested to drop, but the council from what I can tell (oopsie if wrong) is generally against this for a number of reasons that I'd go into but this Golem schtick was way too long altho I had fun going back and talking about Piloswine :pirate: miss u baby. Let's just say that how threatening it is and its dominant presence in the metagame has been massively understated, and while I fully understand the need to question its presence in S rank I honestly feel like its biggest drawback is prediction reliance. Over everything else. There is no new toy syndrome, it's not overhyped, there's 3 switchins lol, it's incredible versus offense and puts massive pressure on balance, please use this more before you say that Monferno makes it a dead weight.
 

Anty

let's drop
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> A+: Agree

I don't feel like I can say anything about this that hasn't already been said but like yeah it's kind of lost its "new toy syndrome" and it's not as splashable as a lot of the other pokes in A+.
Firstly I just want to point out that there is no need to include an agreement with little reasoning, as when deciding changes, we care about people's reasoning and what they add to the suggestion, rather than their opinions, meaning something like this is effectively pointless. I don't mean to single you out, as it is a common problem in this thread, it's just that I was going to respond to your post anyway.

> Low A / High A-: We were discussing this on discord due to the Mawile nomination. We were talking about how splashable Mawile is and how many different sets that Mawile can run. However, Pawniard has one set, and as well as it can utilize that one set, it makes it significantly worse than Mawile. Even though it benefits from metagame trends such as the rise of Muk and Clefairy, but it suffers from other metagame trends, such as the popularity of Probopass and Monferno. If Mawile is significantly better than it, why are they close together, is what I'm asking.
I feel like you are severely undervaluing the effectiveness of Pawniard right now. Currently, Monferno is pretty much the only common stop to Pawniard as Probopass has to be decently healthy to take a +2 Iron Head, which is hard to be at given how easier Probopass is warn down by Volt Switches/etc. Additionally, checks like Stunfisk/Quilladin have severely gone down in usage and Golem and Mawile are the most common Stealth Rock users, and the best defensive Pokemon right now are like Clefairy and Vullaby. Pawniard's general matchup is shown quite well by the viability rankings, given that Pawniard has a positive matchup vs most of S/A+/A, and though more in a-/b+ beat it, Pawn still has a solid matchup vs the majority. It may seem that I downplay the Monferno part, however if it takes a Knock Off from Pawniard, its defensive capabilities become a lot worse, and pairing Pawn with strong Ice/Fire types like CB Rapidash can put a lot of strain on it. Monferno does not completely cockblock Pawn, though it does make sweeping a lot harder, and teams without Monferno have to play almost perfectly around Pawn.

The main reason I believe Pawniard is one of the best A rank Pokemon is how its Swords Dance set can destroy offensive teams. Aside from Monferno, which is the main reason stopping Pawn from going higher, offensive teams are forced to play around with Sucker Punch when Pawniard has set up late game. This pretty much means they are relying on things like WilloWisp Rapidash and Rotom-f which cannot risk switching in, or random Substitute mons which have become severely less common. Pawniards good bulk means it finds little difficulty in setting up on Pokemon like Metang or locked Stoutland, and both Knock Off and Sucker Punch provide so much utility for any team. Honestly I would say SD Pawniard is better than SD Mawile due to its stronger priority making it a better sweeper, though Mawile is a better wallbreaker due to its stronger STABs and is being considered for a rise due to the combination of its offensive and defensive sets.

I could see Pawn dropping a bit in A, but that wouldn't be far and more to do with Pokemon below, like Clefairy, being very good.
 

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