Well the problem with this kind of stuff is that... they needed that stuff ages ago, before powercreep murdered them anyway.
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Pokémon Movepool Oddities & Explanations
- Thread starter Kurona
- Start date
Honestly I think even if Flareon had gotten it in Gen 4 it would still have not been very good
Same goes for Regigigas prior to 8. People wanted it to have those moves because it was ridiculous that it didn't have them. Stalling out 5 turns is a ridiculous ask in a game with heavy pressure with Protect & Rest. You're still having to just twiddle your thumbs and hope your opponent doesnt do something to phase you out or just outright kill you in the mean time, or at least handicap you enough that you're not doing anything even if you get your act together.
But at least when you have them you have options, which is what people wanted.
The crying out for these moves is less "this will make the Pokemon Good (TM)" and more "this pokemon has nothing and would like something so it is more usable". It was more an underline of how bad it was and a want for the bare minimum.
Same goes for Regigigas prior to 8. People wanted it to have those moves because it was ridiculous that it didn't have them. Stalling out 5 turns is a ridiculous ask in a game with heavy pressure with Protect & Rest. You're still having to just twiddle your thumbs and hope your opponent doesnt do something to phase you out or just outright kill you in the mean time, or at least handicap you enough that you're not doing anything even if you get your act together.
But at least when you have them you have options, which is what people wanted.
The crying out for these moves is less "this will make the Pokemon Good (TM)" and more "this pokemon has nothing and would like something so it is more usable". It was more an underline of how bad it was and a want for the bare minimum.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
This was kind of the point of my post though. As I said, even with Flare Blitz Flareon still sucks.
What I was asking is were there other notable examples of Pokemon for which people were saying "oh, it'd be so good if only it got [move]" and then it got the move in question and it didn't improve it as much as they thought.
Well like I said I think it's still less the thought process of "it'd be good if it had ____" and "it would be better if it had ___"
Still I suppose there's Hitmonchan. It finally got to use the elemental punches off its actual attacking stat. But.......
In Gen I, Let's Go and Gen VIII, Pay Day is a TM, and it's distribution seems really random.
The following Pokémon aside from Meowth, Persian and Mew get it in Gen I:
Pikachu line, Nidoqueen and Nidoking, Psyduck line, Mankey line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Rhydon, Snorlax and Mewtwo (tho Mewtwo doesn't get it in Yellow).
Of course a lot of TMs in Gen I were just given to a bunch of random mons, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. It feels like there's a reason these specific Pokémon were chosen, but I fail to see what it is.
It became a TM again in Let's Go but since the game features only Gen I mons only a few more got the move, namely Eevee and it's evolutions, and Mewtwo regained the move after losing it in Yellow. Everyone that could learn it in Gen I (including their Alolan forms) still can.
In Sword and Shield the move remained a TM and the distribution was broadened a bit. Once again everyone that could previously learn it (including their Galarian forms and evolutions, plus evolutions and pre-evolutions introduced from Gen II onwards) still can, plus the following:
Rapidash, Purrloin line, Espurr line, Litten line, Zeraora, Indeedee and Calyrex.
Here there's a clear theme: cat Pokémon. The move's japanese name is "Coin for a cat", so that makes sense. However Rapidash, Indeedee and Calyrex stick out.
I have no idea why any of the non-cat Pokémon get the move, but it doesn't seem like it was just given out randomly. There's some sort of logic here that I just don't get.
The following Pokémon aside from Meowth, Persian and Mew get it in Gen I:
Pikachu line, Nidoqueen and Nidoking, Psyduck line, Mankey line, Slowpoke line, Seel line, Rhydon, Snorlax and Mewtwo (tho Mewtwo doesn't get it in Yellow).
Of course a lot of TMs in Gen I were just given to a bunch of random mons, but that doesn't seem to be the case here. It feels like there's a reason these specific Pokémon were chosen, but I fail to see what it is.
It became a TM again in Let's Go but since the game features only Gen I mons only a few more got the move, namely Eevee and it's evolutions, and Mewtwo regained the move after losing it in Yellow. Everyone that could learn it in Gen I (including their Alolan forms) still can.
In Sword and Shield the move remained a TM and the distribution was broadened a bit. Once again everyone that could previously learn it (including their Galarian forms and evolutions, plus evolutions and pre-evolutions introduced from Gen II onwards) still can, plus the following:
Rapidash, Purrloin line, Espurr line, Litten line, Zeraora, Indeedee and Calyrex.
Here there's a clear theme: cat Pokémon. The move's japanese name is "Coin for a cat", so that makes sense. However Rapidash, Indeedee and Calyrex stick out.
I have no idea why any of the non-cat Pokémon get the move, but it doesn't seem like it was just given out randomly. There's some sort of logic here that I just don't get.
You know how Sword and Shield made many older gen event moves obtainable via TMs and TRs? Pay Day Rapidash was one of those
In Gen I, there was a Japan-only distribution event for both of the Pokemon belonging to the Pokemon Club President, Fearow and Rapidash, with the move Pay Day, which they normally could not get. The Pay Day Fearow and Rapidash even appeared in one of the Manga adaptions. If Fearow was in Sword in Shield, it would've probably gotten the move via TM, too.
Also Hoppip had Pay Day as an Egg move in Gen II, but that was likely a leftover bit from the entire line's original designs in the 1997 Spaceworld Demo, where they were all far more cat-like in appearance.
The initial Home datamine did show Fearow receive Pay Day via TM, as well as Brave Bird teehee
Nuzleaf Signature Move: Only thing I can think of is it having to do with its Tengu inspiration; there are a few tales where the tengu shows off general supernatural powers. Tengu are also tricksters, and with Nuzleaf and Shiftry being Grass/Dark-types, two Types they're vulnerable to is Poison & Fighting, so it may have also been given Extrasensory (which is called "Supernatural Power" in Japan) to give it a leg up against those Types.
Also, something I just discovered, the Japanese spelling of "Supernatural Power" is "じんつうりき" translated as "Jintsūriki". Looking it on Google leads to a Wikipedia definition page and a technique used in Naruto. However, changing it to "Jintsuriki" leads to a page for a music theme of a Dead Or Alive character: Bankotsubo, who is a Tengu (a name which he also goes by). He first appeared in the series in the 2nd game which released in 2000, two years before Gen III was released. Could be coincidence, or maybe there's a Dead or Alive fan working at GF at the time and thought, since they were making a tengu Pokemon, was able to get Nuzleaf having this move as a subtle reference.
80 Power & 30 PP: Maybe to make up for it being 10 Power weaker than Psychic? "Sorry, Psychic is still stronger, but to make up for it you can use Extrasensory more".
Also, not a lot of Psychics learn it, its usually reserved for Pokemon with yokai or similair supernatural creatures, so maybe it's also to make up for all those non-Psychics that get it who don't get STAB from it on top of it being 10 points weaker than Psychic. And for the few Psychics who learn it, just a nice bonus.
I don't think its even that. I think it's more the line of thinking of "this move sounds like something this Pokemon would do, why doesn't it learn it?". It's like how Lickitung didn't learn Lick in Gen I or how Sneasel still can't learn Razor Wind; these moves didn't/won't make the Pokemon any better, but it's still something they would do/related to them so "logically" should get it.
Looking through the list and seeing Psyduck gets it, I'm wondering if the majority of the Gen I Pokemon that got it was because these Pokemon were several staffers favorite Pokemon: Pikachu (which was popular among many staff members), Psyduck (which is notably Masuda's), Mankey, Rapidash, Fearow, Slowpoke, Seel, Rhydon (aka the first Pokemon created), Eevee (it having become a second mascot in recent years and especially for Let's Go), & Snorlax (which is based on Kōji Nishino). Mankey, Slowpoke, and Seel in particular feel like quirky picks.
Nidoqueen, Nidoking, & now Calyrex feel like they get it because their name/theme hint toward royalty and one thing royalty is known for is being rich. Related could be R_N's explanation for Indeedee getting it, as royalty and plenty of butlers & maids working for them and in charge of doing errands (which usually involves buying stuff).
Mewtwo might get it simply because Mew does. Like, Mew can learn every TM, though Mewtwo can't, and usually the reason is that its a Move that Mewtwo can't perform or may not have use for. Pay Day, at least in Red & Green/Blue, was seen as possible and gimmicky enough it could learn it. So why did it lose it in Yellow? Possibly because by that time the first movie had been released and, well, upon watching the super serious & deadly Mewtwo on the big screen its hard to imagine it doing any quirky moves like tossing coins at the opponent.
And then Gen VIII gave it to a whole batch of cat Pokemon for the obvious reason of being called "Coin for a Cat" in Japan. BTW Hoppip would be included in that, hence it getting it as an Egg Move in Gen II.
Only other one is Delibird getting it as an Event Move, and hey what else do you give someone as a present when you can't think of anything: money!
This mindset is why I still lobby for Boomburst to be given to Guzzlord after the anime.
In Lockstin's recent video on Staraptor, he notes that the only Pokemon who could learn Aerial Ace through level-up in Gen 3 besides Taillow and Swellow was Spearow. I went to go fact check this, and it turned out to be even more true than I thought. Fearow doesn't learn the move. It's only Spearow (and the Swellow line). Now, prevo-exclusive moves aren't anything new, if anything it was kind of a theme in Gen 3, but what's odd is that Fearow doesn't learn anything in Aerial Ace's place. Spearow learns Aerial Ace at level 25, between Pursuit at level 19 and Mirror Move at level 31, but Fearow learns Pursuit at level 26 and Mirror Move at level 32 without anything in between.
Here's something that only got mentioned waaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in page 5 in this thread, courtesy of pika pal:
Among the Forces of Nature, Landorus is strange because in addition of having access to both Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, the only Grass-type move it can learn is Grass Knot. It also can't learn Rototiller, a move that helps Grass-type Pokémon.
Tornadus and Thundurus aren't the easiest Pokémon to justify both Sludge moves, but I interpret this as a prank gone horribly wrong. That said, I wonder if Thundurus could have a Fire-type move because of the Pokédex:
In her LPA movelist, she has ZERO Grass-type moves and can be taught Sludge Bomb. She can also be taught Earth Power but I wanted to focus on Sludge Bomb.
Emphasis mine.
Among the Forces of Nature, Landorus is strange because in addition of having access to both Sludge Bomb and Sludge Wave, the only Grass-type move it can learn is Grass Knot. It also can't learn Rototiller, a move that helps Grass-type Pokémon.
Tornadus and Thundurus aren't the easiest Pokémon to justify both Sludge moves, but I interpret this as a prank gone horribly wrong. That said, I wonder if Thundurus could have a Fire-type move because of the Pokédex:
And then, we got Enamorus, the Herald of Spring, with a signature move called Springtime Storm.The B2W2 Pokédex said:
In her LPA movelist, she has ZERO Grass-type moves and can be taught Sludge Bomb. She can also be taught Earth Power but I wanted to focus on Sludge Bomb.
TailGlowVM
Now 100% more demonic
It has Incinerate, so I think they had the same idea as you.
Note to self: remember transfer-only moves.
Ema Skye
Work!
Something I think is really cool is how the RBY Psychics (excluding Mewtwo/Mew) are created through a bunch of tradeoffs.
Starting with the pure Psychics,
And then the other two are defined by their reliable sleep moves, with Exeggutor getting to keep paralysis in exchange for its lower speed than Jynx. Meanwhile, Jynx is stuck being the only Psychic without access to paralysis, and instead has to carry itself through STAB Blizzard.
| Name | Dual Type | Special | Speed | Paralysis Move? | Sleep Move? | Other Utility? | Attacking Moves |
 | None | 135 | 120 | Thunder Wave | None | Recover | Psychic |
 | Water | 100 | 115 | Thunder Wave | None | Recover | Psychic, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Surf |
 | Grass | 125 | 55 | Stun Spore | Sleep Powder | Explosion | Psychic, Mega Drain |
 | Ice | 95 | 95 | None | Lovely Kiss | none | Psychic, Blizzard |
 | Water | 80 | 30 | Thunder Wave | none | Amnesia (+2 Spc) | Psychic, Blizzard, Surf |
 | None | 115 | 67 | Thunder Wave | Hypnosis | none | Psychic |
 | None | 100 | 90 | Thunder Wave | None | none | Psychic, Thunderbolt |
Starting with the pure Psychics,
- Alakazam has the best combination of special and speed, as well as Recover, but is limited to Seismic Toss for other Psychics.
- Mr. Mime sacrifices special, speed and recover to get Thunderbolt, which it only shares with Starmie.
- Hypno drops special, recover and a lot of speed to get Hypnosis, and with sleep being up to 7 turns this gen, it's a pretty big deal. It's also bulkier to afford it more turns to land the sleep.
And then the other two are defined by their reliable sleep moves, with Exeggutor getting to keep paralysis in exchange for its lower speed than Jynx. Meanwhile, Jynx is stuck being the only Psychic without access to paralysis, and instead has to carry itself through STAB Blizzard.
QuentinQuonce
formerly green_typhlosion
This is cool. Be interested to see how this maps onto other types.Something I think is really cool is how the RBY Psychics (excluding Mewtwo/Mew) are created through a bunch of tradeoffs.
Name Dual Type Special Speed Paralysis Move? Sleep Move? Other Utility? Attacking Moves None 135 120 Thunder Wave None Recover Psychic Water 100 115 Thunder Wave None Recover Psychic, Blizzard, Thunderbolt, Surf Grass 125 55 Stun Spore Sleep Powder Explosion Psychic, Mega Drain Ice 95 95 None Lovely Kiss none Psychic, Blizzard Water 80 30 Thunder Wave none Amnesia (+2 Spc) Psychic, Blizzard, Surf None 115 67 Thunder Wave Hypnosis none Psychic None 100 90 Thunder Wave None none Psychic, Thunderbolt
Starting with the pure Psychics,
And the Water/Psychics, Starmie gets Recover, Thunderbolt and phenomenal offensive stats, while Slowbro's Amnesia can let it win games in a turn.
- Alakazam has the best combination of special and speed, as well as Recover, but is limited to Seismic Toss for other Psychics.
- Mr. Mime sacrifices special, speed and recover to get Thunderbolt, which it only shares with Starmie.
- Hypno drops special, recover and a lot of speed to get Hypnosis, and with sleep being up to 7 turns this gen, it's a pretty big deal. It's also bulkier to afford it more turns to land the sleep.
And then the other two are defined by their reliable sleep moves, with Exeggutor getting to keep paralysis in exchange for its lower speed than Jynx. Meanwhile, Jynx is stuck being the only Psychic without access to paralysis, and instead has to carry itself through STAB Blizzard.
Am I the only person who thought exploding Azelf is funny?
I wouldn't call it funny, because I think there's sense to it. Each of the lake guardians has a move that causes themselves to faint. Azelf as the offensive one has Explosion, Uxie the defensive one has Memento, and Mesprit has Healing Wish.
A bit of a minor one, but the only Physical Psychic move Alolan Raichu can learn is Heart Stamp, which itself was an event move for Pikachu in Gen VI, before Alolan Raichu existed. Considering that the Pikachu line has been able to learn moves like Headbutt and Skull Bash in the past, I am surprised that Alolan Raichu is incapable of learning Zen Headbutt.
Yeah, I actually think it's one of the cooler legendary movepool decisions in the series. Azelf, the Willpower Pokemon, sacrifices itself to go all-out with an especially powerful attack. Mesprit, the Emotion Pokemon, sacrifices itself to take care of a teammate. Uxie, the Knowledge Pokemon, sacrifices itself to, uh, do whatever exactly Memento does (judging by the name, maybe exploit knowledge of death to discourage the opponent?).
Wiki suggests its something like a memento mori: you too, will die [like i am]
Kind of fits the knowledge theme (the knowledge that you die)
Honestly I think it probably would have been called "Curse", if that wasn't already taken, or "Grudge" (same generation!) if the way Grudge worked didn't work out better as a "grudge"
Ema Skye
Work!
hello here is another one
| Name | Dual Typing | Atk/Spe | HP/Def/Spc | STAB | Other |
 | Ground | 130/40 | 105/120/45 | Rock Slide, Earthquake | |
 | Flying | 105/130 | 80/65/60 | Wing Attack (35BP...) | 25% crit rate |
 | Water | 60/55 | 70/125/115 | Hydro Pump/Surf | |
 | Water | 115/80 | 60/105/70 | Surf | Slash autocrit |
 | Ground | 110/45 | 80/130/55 | Rock Slide, Earthquake | Explosion |
 | Ground | 45/70 | 35/160/30 | Rock Slide, Earthquake | Bind, Explosion |
Aero is a weird rock type because it's so frail, a trait which is still rarely seen. It boasts the second highest speed in the game, meaning a crit rate of over 25% every time it attacks. An Earthquake immunity is a huge selling point for the mon as well, and while it lacks STABs, it'd also be probably the pinnacle of OU play if it did, so its balancing was done quite well imo because it's defensive typing and speed already carry it quite well. Yup, a significant part of Aerodactyl's kit is its defensive typing (which is strange coming from past gens).
Omastar is the special rock type, with a Hydro Pump that rivals Mewtwo's Psychic for the strongest special attack in the game. Like Aerodactyl, this also leads to it being a rock that can navigate the Ground matchup, though it does it in a different way. Given its lack of other utility, it seems they wanted to focus on this part of its design.
Kabutops is interesting, because while it's a physical attacker, it lacks Rock STAB. Instead, it was blessed with Slash, which autocrits, and it seems like it was designed around this. With the third strongest Slash in the game after Persian and Pinsir, Kabutops ends up being blessed with Surf to cover the Slash resists (other Rocks + Gengar). It's some pretty cool synergy!
Golem is bad Rhydon in pretty much every department, with Explosion being how it makes that tradeoff. Much has been written about these two in the past 30 years that I don't need to add more.
Onix looks like a joke, and it historically is one. However, it still manages to be interesting due to its speed tier. 70 puts it as the second fastest rock, and with a Thunder Wave immunity, it's actually pretty hard to slow Onix down once paralysis is on the field. This synergizes with Bind, acting as an offensive tool (chip damage in a game without Leftovers), defensive tool (they can't attack if you're faster) and support tool (you can use the attack denial for free switches) in one package. Fun fact: in RBY's development, it was originally going to get Glare which would've further worked with this role as a mon revolving around paralysis control.
The Rocks are pretty cool because they also exhibit the tradeoffs and interesting mon design. All 3 Rock/Grounds play very differently (especially Onix!), while both Rock/Waters play different from them and each other, and nothing really plays like Aerodactyl.
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