Partners in Crime

[Ghoul King]

You're still citing it as a flaw of -atespeed that it requires a specific pair of Pokemon be on the field to get the benefit and ignoring that this is also true of Prankster Spore. In fact, -atespeed is less finicky about that, as switching in an -ate provider on the same turn an Extreme Speeder uses Extreme Speed still provides the full benefit, where Prankster Spore requires both Pokemon are on the field at the same time at the very start of the turn to be usable. Yet you're only citing this as a limitation of -atespeed and entirely ignoring that it's more true of Prankster Spore.

Your choices of "bopped by" are bizarre and nonsensical -Tyranitar is outsped and dies to one Close Combat, Heatran is outsped and dies to Earthquake, Aegislash is outsped and can be KOed by double Earthquake (Against Physically Defensive Aegislash Earthquake does more than 60% in Doubles off of both of Dragonite and Mega Pinsir), and Mega Diancie needs to spend a turn Mega Evolving during which time Dragonite and Mega Pinsir can potentially be getting off a Dragon Dance -and if instead it goes for the first-turn attack it's risking being KOed by, again, Earthquake, not even getting into the fact that Dragonite gets Iron Head. 8MSS doesn't even apply here -one decent moveset will kill all of those at the same time while still having room for Extreme Speed. I'm leaving out the part where Multiscale is a big deal, too.

208 Atk Mega Diancie Diamond Storm vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Mega Pinsir: 236-282 (87 - 104%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

Grabbed straight from the calc for Doubles Mixed Attacker Mega Diancie. Yeah, Mega Pinsir has good odds of surviving Diamond Storm. That's a doubly super effective functionally 75 BP move off a STAB attacker with 160 Attack and a good chunk of investment. Actually OHKOing Mega Pinsir backed by Dragonite is difficult without high power STAB Stone Edge (Terrakion will get the KO every time with Stone Edge, no need for a Life Orb, but anything weaker is at risk of not getting it), and Terracott is defeated by the simple expedient of Extreme Speeding Whimsicott out of existence -or Terrakion, as it takes more than 65% from Mega Pinsir's Extreme Speed and only slightly less from Dragonite's. (It's not like Whimsicott can do much of anything to Mega Pinsir and Dragonite, aside from breaking Multiscale) Hell, Mega Pinsir's Feint+Dragonite's Extreme Speed is a KO on Terrakion, so it can't even necessarily stall with Protect!

It's also baffling to me that you're ignoring that Prankster Spore outright loses to Aerilate Extreme Speed -even your own argument provides a clear utility to Aerilate Extreme Speed, even if you hold to the belief that Aerilate Extreme Speed is otherwise dubious.

I also find it baffling that you're playing up the utility of shutting down an enemy Pokemon and ignoring the superior utility of simply vaporizing them. Yeah, Spore is nice (You know, ignoring Lum Berry and Safety Goggles and so on) but KOing the enemy is nicer.

The only real flaw with the Dragonite+Mega Pinsir core is that it's incompatible with other Megas... and honestly, the only Megas that really leap out as the sort of thing you'd really hate to be missing out on are banned anyway. (Medichamite, Kangashkanite, Mawilite) Unless you're going to argue that Mega Sableye is going to be amazing, but you seem to be dismissing it out of hand, which seems silly to me given that it's a hard stop to Prankster Spore that comes with innate recovery and would love to benefit from any number of partners. (Such as another Prankster)

 

[canno]

The biggest difference between -atespeed and Prankster Spore is that Thundurus-I and Amoongus (using these two because this is the most feasible way I can see Prankster Spore being used) are both perfectly viable Pokemon on their own right (in fact they're exceptionally viable on their own and become a godly pair when put together) while M-Pinsir + Dragonite have to be together in order to stay competitively relevant in a doubles environment. Not only that, but Thundy-I and Amoongus also match up really well with other Pokemon outside its combo - Prankster works with much more than Spore, and Spore is good on more than just Prankster Pokemon. They also benefit Pokemon outside the combo - Amoongus gives Regenerator and Rage Powder, while Thundy-I grants Prankster Taunt and Thunder Wave. The only thing that M-Pinsir and Dragonite can gift to their teammates is the coverage that they happen to run, Aerilate Feint from M-Pinsir, and ExtremeSpeed from Dragonite, which aren't that nice outside of Aerilate Feint. The coverage isn't even that notable since everything gives coverage - including Thundy-I + Amoongus.

This isn't to say that Dragonite + M-Pinsir can't work - in fact, I can see it being good in the meta (Feint is a cool tool to be able to finish off something regardless of if it Protects / Quick Guards, and priority Espeed is nice to hit the Prankster Spore). However, it definitely has a lot of issues (uses up your Mega Slot, needs to be together in order to work, redundancy in the pairing both defensively and offensively, doesn't offer much to the rest of the team, ect), and is definitely not at the same level as Thundy-I + Amoongus (note: I don't think any other combination is viable, but I also haven't played Doubles since Gen 5 and VGC2016 which is a completely different beast so unless Whimsicott because actually viable instead of a meme then idk). Also I don't see how aerilate espeed completely destroys this combo, seeing as Thundy-I resists Flying and can take Espeed from both of them (even if Dnite is banded).

EDIT: Forgot that Dnite can grant Roost, which is notable. Not enough to put them in the same level as Thungus, but its still very notable if you are using like Heatran or something idk.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Basically what he said, I couldn't have worded it any better.

If you're running TTar you're most definetly running Excadrill, who can pass Sand Rush to all of its allies including TTar. Aegislash runs Wide Guard most of the time. After Pinsir mega evolves the core really gets hampered by Intimidate. Partnered with some speed control (Tailwind or Icy Wind probably), Diancie can come in and get kills on both. Also a mon using Multiscale can get Multiscale broken and get attacked during the same turn in doubles, which you seem to be forgetting.

Diancie, Charizard, and Tyranitar are likely going to be the most popular megas. Diancie because it passes Magic Bounce, and Charizard and Tyranitar because they can set weather for an ally with Chlorophyll or Sand Rush.

 

[Ghoul King]

The biggest difference between -atespeed and Prankster Spore is that Thundurus-I and Amoongus (using these two because this is the most feasible way I can see Prankster Spore being used) are both perfectly viable Pokemon on their own right (in fact they're exceptionally viable on their own and become a godly pair when put together) while M-Pinsir + Dragonite have to be together in order to stay competitively relevant in a doubles environment. Not only that, but Thundy-I and Amoongus also match up really well with other Pokemon outside its combo - Prankster works with much more than Spore, and Spore is good on more than just Prankster Pokemon. They also benefit Pokemon outside the combo - Amoongus gives Regenerator and Rage Powder, while Thundy-I grants Prankster Taunt and Thunder Wave. The only thing that M-Pinsir and Dragonite can gift to their teammates is the coverage that they happen to run, Aerilate Feint from M-Pinsir, and ExtremeSpeed from Dragonite, which aren't that nice outside of Aerilate Feint. The coverage isn't even that notable since everything gives coverage - including Thundy-I + Amoongus.

... Multiscale is a completely ridiculous Ability, and Dragonite's movepool is outrageous. Mega Pinsir's movepool includes notables like Knock Off, and it's no longer basically locked to a specific set of 4 moves. There's also a large number of possible backup Extreme Speed donors, Aerilate benefits Fake Out (Weavile's Aerilate Fake Out is better than an unmodified Fake Out, for example), etc, so it's not like Aerilate is only useful in conjunction with Dragonite -even if it were, Dragonite has been banned from several metas, usually because of -atespeed. (Hidden Type banned it because Multiscale and its godly typing were too much, mostly)

Similarly, Mega Pinsir was banned from Sketchmons and Inheritance for its ability to abuse Aerilated Extreme Speed with its monstrous 155 Attack.

There is strong evidence from prior OMs that they're going to be powerful and relevant, even considering this is a Doubles format rather than a Singles format.

There's also other less-synergistic but still powerful combinations available like Telepathy Noivern, which can spam Aerilated Boomburst alongside Mega Pinsir all day long without issue. They are not a combination that's only notable with each other.

Also I don't see how aerilate espeed completely destroys this combo, seeing as Thundy-I resists Flying and can take Espeed from both of them (even if Dnite is banded).

? And? Your Spore donor is going to die no matter what. If you switch it out, Thundurus doesn't get to drop a Spore. If you Protect, Feint still kills it. If you keep it in, it contributes nothing except Thundurus getting in a single Spore, which is a terrible trade to temporarily disable an opposing Pokemon while losing one outright.

So yes, Dragonite+Mega Pinsir breaks Amoonguss/Breloom+Thundurus 100% reliably. Like, sure, great, Thundurus won't die, but Prankster Spore gets one turn of use against one Pokemon and then is gone, while you haven't even stopped the opposing -atespeed: Sleeping Pokemon still donate moves/Abilities.

If you're running TTar you're most definetly running Excadrill, who can pass Sand Rush to all of its allies including TTar.

Okay yeah, there is that, and a quick calc shows that Excadrill survives with HP to spare if Dragonite isn't, like, Banded, if hit by two -atespeeds, so Dragonite and Mega Pinsir are probably best off switching out entirely/not leading at all against that, especially since Sandstorm breaks Multiscale.

Aegislash runs Wide Guard most of the time.

Knock Off and Fire Blast/Fire Punch provide non-spread options. Aegislash is complicated to talk about in PiC, though -I don't disagree that Aegislash is a check to the pair, my point is simply that it's not necessarily a reliable check to the pair.

After Pinsir mega evolves the core really gets hampered by Intimidate.

If Intimidate works in PiC the way I think it does, absolutely, because single-turn quad-Intimidate is ridiculous and access to boosting is not remotely good enough to deal with it. The OP is honestly kind of confusing in its description, though.

Partnered with some speed control (Tailwind or Icy Wind probably), Diancie can come in and get kills on both.

Mega Diancie can take more than 40% from unboosted Aerilate Extreme Speed from either of the two. If you engage in Speed control while they boost, Mega Diancie stops being a check.

Also a mon using Multiscale can get Multiscale broken and get attacked during the same turn in doubles, which you seem to be forgetting.

That generally only crops up in Doubles when spread moves are invoked -it's risky to have both of your Pokemon target a single specific Pokemon, thanks to Protect, and that's liable to be even more true in PiC. Even though you could theoretically double attack Dragonite and thus incidentally remove Multiscale from Mega Pinsir, at that point you're risking Dragonite protecting while Mega Pinsir is free to act. The two are admittedly weak to Rock Slide, doubly so for Mega Pinsir, but that starts getting into Speed control issues -Excatar is the only thing you've brought up or that I've thought of that can reliably get around the combination of Aerilated Extreme Speed and good base Speed backed by excellent coverage to then get in solid Rock Slides. (The fact that you can spread Rock Slide to fast Pokemon from slower Pokemon has the key flaw that fast Pokemon are too susceptible to the Extreme Speed part of things, being generally fragile) Meanwhile, they're both immune to Earthquake, Dragonite resists Heat Wave/Lava Plume... neither of them like Discharge, I guess, but Extreme Speed reduces the impact of being Paralyzed, too.

I've used Dragonite to good effect in Doubles, and Multiscale being theoretically more bypassable generally only crops up when Icy Wind is being tossed around, or occasionally when Mega Gardevoir is involved.

(Kangaskhan is the other major exception on the Multiscale front, but it's banned here, so whatever)

Diancie, Charizard, and Tyranitar are likely going to be the most popular megas. Diancie because it passes Magic Bounce, and Charizard and Tyranitar because they can set weather for an ally with Chlorophyll or Sand Rush.

Mega Sableye passes Magic Bounce, provides recovery, and has an excellent stall movepool all around. Mega Diancie is probably the preferred Mega for straight offense, but Mega Sableye is better for a stall-y team -and I personally suspect stall gets a fairly big leg up in PiC, since stuff like Unaware spreading makes it actually relevant to the meta.

Mega Charizard Y has to wait a turn to get that Speed advantage, which has substantial problems.

No argument on Tyranitar being good, beyond that I'm unconvinced that Mega Tyranitar will thus be popular. It does have, if nothing else, the weather war advantage eg when fighting Mega Charizard Y, so the Mega definitely has a place.

 

[canno]

... Multiscale is a completely ridiculous Ability, and Dragonite's movepool is outrageous. Mega Pinsir's movepool includes notables like Knock Off, and it's no longer basically locked to a specific set of 4 moves. There's also a large number of possible backup Extreme Speed donors, Aerilate benefits Fake Out (Weavile's Aerilate Fake Out is better than an unmodified Fake Out, for example), etc, so it's not like Aerilate is only useful in conjunction with Dragonite

Multiscale, while good, is not "completely ridiculous" in a Double's environment due to the nature of Doubles (its very easy to break Multiscale with something like Fake Out or a spread move and damage the Pokemon severely in the same turn). Granted, it is still a nice ability and I should of mentioned it, but it is definitely not the greatest thing ever.

Dragonite might have a god-like movepool, but you have to actually run said moves to fully abuse this. Sure you could theoretically load up Dragonite with tones of Special moves that it won't use just to give stellar coverage, but this doesn't really seem like a good idea considering that your teammate might not even be able to use said moves because they're physical attackers (like Pinsir). On the physical side you face the same issues, except Dragonite can actually use these moves. However, its physical movepool is nowhere near as ridiculous as its special movepool.

Knock Off is the only other notable move, and its not that notable since tons of things get Knock Off, and the things that appreciate Knock Off don't necessarily want to be paired up with M-Pinsir. Fake Out's benefit is a nice bonus, but is not really that amazing in the long run. The only real nice thing about it is the fact that you can hit Ghost-types that would want to Trick Room up. Of course, its not really that much of a benefit since Aerilate Espeed makes TR not as good against a M-Pinsir team but its still nice I guess.

For similar reasons that I don't mention other Spore / Prankster doners, I don't think using a different espeeder is really viable. Most of the other Espeeders not only also have redundant weaknesses (to a spread move called Rock Slide to boot), but have similar issues that Dragonite has - the only other one I can see working is Arcanine and that's only because of Fire coverage and Intimidate. Even then, Arcanine itself doesn't benefit much from sharing with Pinsir (all it really gets is a stronger Espeed, which isn't really enough of a buff to be considered all that helpful as a mon itself), a common problem with all the other Espeeders.

-even if it were, Dragonite has been banned from several metas, usually because of -atespeed. (Hidden Type banned it because Multiscale and its godly typing were too much, mostly)

Similarly, Mega Pinsir was banned from Sketchmons and Inheritance for its ability to abuse Aerilated Extreme Speed with its monstrous 155 Attack.

There is strong evidence from prior OMs that they're going to be powerful and relevant, even considering this is a Doubles format rather than a Singles format.

Its not really fair to compare this to other OMs due to the fact that it is Doubles (Intimidate spam is prevalent, both of them can be taken out by spread moves while Espeed is locked into single targetting, ect). You're also making it sound like I'm saying that M-Pinsir + Dragonite is going to be bad by saying "they're going to be powerful and relevant" - I am definitely not saying that (I even said that the combo would be good in the same post you're quoting). I am not telling you that it is a weak and irrelevant combo at all. I'm just saying that it is no where near at the same level as Amoongus + Thundy-I due to all the flaws that it has.

There's also other less-synergistic but still powerful combinations available like Telepathy Noivern, which can spam Aerilated Boomburst alongside Mega Pinsir all day long without issue. They are not a combination that's only notable with each other.

If you do actually decide to run Noivern (the only Pokemon w/Boomburst that can realistically work and be called "viable"), then half of your team suffers from redundant weaknesses - mainly, they all get bodies by Rock Slide, along with other moves like Ice Beam and don't particularly like Electric-types. M-Pinsir + Noivern is also not very viable as a whole because M-Pinsir isn't very useful in this situation outside of gifting Aerialte to Noivern, and cannot provide anything else outside of Aerialte. It also means that your team gets hampered severely once M-Pinsir is forced out / KO'd, as a good portion of your team composition relies heavily on M-Pinsir's Aerilate.

? And? Your Spore donor is going to die no matter what. If you switch it out, Thundurus doesn't get to drop a Spore. If you Protect, Feint still kills it. If you keep it in, it contributes nothing except Thundurus getting in a single Spore, which is a terrible trade to temporarily disable an opposing Pokemon while losing one outright.

So yes, Dragonite+Mega Pinsir breaks Amoonguss/Breloom+Thundurus 100% reliably. Like, sure, great, Thundurus won't die, but Prankster Spore gets one turn of use against one Pokemon and then is gone, while you haven't even stopped the opposing -atespeed: Sleeping Pokemon still donate moves/Abilities.

It does not beat it 100% reliable because Amoonguss grants Rage Powder. Thundy-I can Rage Powder while Amoonguss Spores something. Now I have a weak Thundy-I (that switches out and heals itself assuming I have Regenerator) and a healthy Amoonguss while you have a sleeping mon (meaning less espeeds to be thrown out).

That isn't even the smart play - the best play is to switch out Amoonguss to something that can take 2 Aerialte Espeeds (or even sac if you cant) and straight up kill M-Pinsir if its not at absolute max HP (i.e. you can't take any Fake Out damage or any form of residual damage like Sandstorm from a TTar) / my switch in doesn't have Mold Breaker. Sure, you've prevented me from putting to sleep temporarily (I can switch Amoonguss back in at any point in the game and go for my Prankster + Spore combo), but you've also lost the centerpiece to your combo / whole team if you're actually running Noivern and other shit that relys on Aerilate. So yes, you did stop me from putting something to sleep temporarily - I've also permanently stopped your Aeriate Espeed shenanigans. If what you said is a bad trade, then this situation I just gave is ten times as bad.

64 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 270-320 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Even if M-Pinsir is at max HP (not likely unless its very early in the game), I still have my Spore user for the future, your M-Pinsir is now at half HP (meaning that, if this situation comes on again then you're in a horrible spot if you misplay again) and my potential switch in to double Espeed puts you in a bad position (lets say I brought in M-Diancie or even Lando-T if it works like I think it does, for example). Plus I can just bring in Amoongus later in the game and have my Prankster + Spore combo.

Again, having to switch out Amoongus isn't completely awful for me, since Thundy-I is still exceptionally good on its own and provides good tools to anything that comes in with it, plus I can just bring in Amoongus at a later point. If I force out M-Pinsir, Dragonite is at a severe disadvantage since it needs M-Pinsir to function as a competitively viable Pokemon. Without M-Pisnir, Dragonite is exceptionally disappointing as a Pokemon and doesn't grant too much to its teammates outside of kind of cute things (assuming you didn't butcher your moveset to make Dragonite a good partner, in which case Dragonite itself turns form exceptionally disappointing to offensively terrible).

 

[Ghoul King]

Knock Off is the only other notable move, and its not that notable since tons of things get Knock Off, and the things that appreciate Knock Off don't necessarily want to be paired up with M-Pinsir.

Rock Slide, Stone Edge, and Seismic Toss if for some reason you expect to pair up with a wall. Meanwhile, pretty much everything appreciates Knock Off, even walls and Special attackers, albeit less so than in a Singles environment.

There's other stuff that's really niche and iffy like Fury Attack/Double Hit that I'm not going to make a case for but will point out have potential relevance. They're unlikely to be meta-relevant, but the potential for combinatorial madness means they're worth keeping in mind.

Fake Out's benefit is a nice bonus, but is not really that amazing in the long run. The only real nice thing about it is the fact that you can hit Ghost-types that would want to Trick Room up. Of course, its not really that much of a benefit since Aerilate Espeed makes TR not as good against a M-Pinsir team but its still nice I guess.

It's a damage increase comparable to Life Orb for free against anything that isn't part Electric and against Fighting, Grass, and Bug types it doubles your damage output on that Fake Out. (Unless they were part Electric -so Galvantula- in which case you're still ahead of an unboosted Fake Out)

Scizor, for instance, is normally able to shrug off Fake Out in Doubles, only being concerned with the fact that it misses a turn in the process. Mega Pinsir's own Fake Out does a minimum of 25% to bulky Scizor, which is a rather alarming amount to be taking for "free".

For similar reasons that I don't mention other Spore / Prankster doners, I don't think using a different espeeder is really viable. Most of the other Espeeders not only also have redundant weaknesses (to a spread move called Rock Slide to boot), but have similar issues that Dragonite has - the only other one I can see working is Arcanine and that's only because of Fire coverage and Intimidate. Even then, Arcanine itself doesn't benefit much from sharing with Pinsir (all it really gets is a stronger Espeed, which isn't really enough of a buff to be considered all that helpful as a mon itself), a common problem with all the other Espeeders.

... Genesect is legal in Doubles. So is Deoxys, and Deoxys Attack usually runs Extreme Speed in Doubles. Lucario gets Extreme Speed and is liable to be a great choice to bring on many teams thanks to its excellent movepool, and even its Flinch-related Abilities are kind of nice to spread around, and it shares exactly zero weaknesses with Mega Pinsir.

What are you talking about?

If you do actually decide to run Noivern (the only Pokemon w/Boomburst that can realistically work and be called "viable"), then half of your team suffers from redundant weaknesses - mainly, they all get bodies by Rock Slide, along with other moves like Ice Beam and don't particularly like Electric-types. M-Pinsir + Noivern is also not very viable as a whole because M-Pinsir isn't very useful in this situation outside of gifting Aerialte to Noivern, and cannot provide anything else outside of Aerialte. It also means that your team gets hampered severely once M-Pinsir is forced out / KO'd, as a good portion of your team composition relies heavily on M-Pinsir's Aerilate.

That's simplifying a bit and assuming you don't have, like, Sylveon in the back. Scarf Sylveon is usable in Doubles without a freely spammable Boomburst. Pairing it with Noivern is liable to be a fairly strong combo that mostly needs anti-Heatran coverage. (Oh look, Mega Pinsir provides that!)

It does not beat it 100% reliable because Amoonguss grants Rage Powder. Thundy-I can Rage Powder while Amoonguss Spores something. Now I have a weak Thundy-I (that switches out and heals itself assuming I have Regenerator) and a healthy Amoonguss while you have a sleeping mon (meaning less espeeds to be thrown out).

All right, I forgot about Thundurus being able to use Rage Powder, but I will note that if Dragonite has Safety Goggles you're instead down Amoonguss and Thundurus is injured while nothing has been Spored, so it's still overall advantaged as a matchup toward Dragonite+Mega Pinsir.

That isn't even the smart play - the best play is to switch out Amoonguss to something that can take 2 Aerialte Espeeds (or even sac if you cant) and straight up kill M-Pinsir if its not at absolute max HP (i.e. you can't take any Fake Out damage or any form of residual damage like Sandstorm from a TTar) / my switch in doesn't have Mold Breaker. Sure, you've prevented me from putting to sleep temporarily (I can switch Amoonguss back in at any point in the game and go for my Prankster + Spore combo), but you've also lost the centerpiece to your combo / whole team if you're actually running Noivern and other shit that relys on Aerilate. So yes, you did stop me from putting something to sleep temporarily - I've also permanently stopped your Aeriate Espeed shenanigans. If what you said is a bad trade, then this situation I just gave is ten times as bad.

64 SpA Thundurus Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Mega Pinsir: 270-320 (99.6 - 118%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

Even if M-Pinsir is at max HP (not likely unless its very early in the game), I still have my Spore user for the future, your M-Pinsir is now at half HP (meaning that, if this situation comes on again then you're in a horrible spot if you misplay again) and my potential switch in to double Espeed puts you in a bad position (lets say I brought in M-Diancie or even Lando-T if it works like I think it does, for example). Plus I can just bring in Amoongus later in the game and have my Prankster + Spore combo.

... I find it odd that you're ignoring Roost given you brought it up as a useful thing for Dragonite to donate in a previous post. Mega Pinsir can potentially just Roost back to Multiscale.

I'll also point out that Dragonite pairs well with, of all things, Aurorus, and the whole "You can switch in an -ater but neither a Sporer nor a Prankster to initiate the combo" thing is relevant.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 340-400 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In other words, if Dragonite+Pinsir leads against Thundurus-Incarnate+Amoonguss, and Aurorus is in the back of Dragonite+Pinsir, that's another way the Rage Powder plan can go awry/way the core has a strong start and can overwhelm Prankster Spore.

I also have no idea why you think it's substantially unusual to be at full health outside of the "early game" in Doubles. If the enemy doesn't get Stealth Rock up and you're not running a stall-y team, a lot of your switches in Doubles are going to occur in the form of a Pokemon fainting and a replacement being sent in. Mega Pinsir may well be at full health in the late game against a fellow HO team.

Again, having to switch out Amoongus isn't completely awful for me, since Thundy-I is still exceptionally good on its own and provides good tools to anything that comes in with it, plus I can just bring in Amoongus at a later point. If I force out M-Pinsir, Dragonite is at a severe disadvantage since it needs M-Pinsir to function as a competitively viable Pokemon. Without M-Pisnir, Dragonite is exceptionally disappointing as a Pokemon and doesn't grant too much to its teammates outside of kind of cute things (assuming you didn't butcher your moveset to make Dragonite a good partner, in which case Dragonite itself turns form exceptionally disappointing to offensively terrible).

No, it doesn't need Mega Pinsir in specific? Mega Pinsir is just the best general use partner? There's other -ate effects and Refrigerate or Pixilate Extreme Speed off of 134 Attack is nothing to scoff at, and Dragonite's good coverage is a useful tool for allies. Dragonite itself is also a good user of other Pokemon's Physical coverage thanks to its high stats/useful movepool, and a lot of its flaws in Doubles can be directly patched up by allies, such as bringing in a Guts ally to punish having Burned it. A Magic Guard ally will let it switch into Stealth Rock and ignore Sandstorm, as another example, holding onto Multiscale more consistently.

 

[sin(pi)]

Lucario ... shares exactly zero weaknesses with Mega Pinsir.

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Rock Slide, Stone Edge, and Seismic Toss if for some reason you expect to pair up with a wall. Meanwhile, pretty much everything appreciates Knock Off, even walls and Special attackers, albeit less so than in a Singles environment.

There's other stuff that's really niche and iffy like Fury Attack/Double Hit that I'm not going to make a case for but will point out have potential relevance. They're unlikely to be meta-relevant, but the potential for combinatorial madness means they're worth keeping in mind.



It's a damage increase comparable to Life Orb for free against anything that isn't part Electric and against Fighting, Grass, and Bug types it doubles your damage output on that Fake Out. (Unless they were part Electric -so Galvantula- in which case you're still ahead of an unboosted Fake Out)

Scizor, for instance, is normally able to shrug off Fake Out in Doubles, only being concerned with the fact that it misses a turn in the process. Mega Pinsir's own Fake Out does a minimum of 25% to bulky Scizor, which is a rather alarming amount to be taking for "free".



... Genesect is legal in Doubles. So is Deoxys, and Deoxys Attack usually runs Extreme Speed in Doubles. Lucario gets Extreme Speed and is liable to be a great choice to bring on many teams thanks to its excellent movepool, and even its Flinch-related Abilities are kind of nice to spread around, and it shares exactly zero weaknesses with Mega Pinsir.

What are you talking about?



That's simplifying a bit and assuming you don't have, like, Sylveon in the back. Scarf Sylveon is usable in Doubles without a freely spammable Boomburst. Pairing it with Noivern is liable to be a fairly strong combo that mostly needs anti-Heatran coverage. (Oh look, Mega Pinsir provides that!)



All right, I forgot about Thundurus being able to use Rage Powder, but I will note that if Dragonite has Safety Goggles you're instead down Amoonguss and Thundurus is injured while nothing has been Spored, so it's still overall advantaged as a matchup toward Dragonite+Mega Pinsir.



... I find it odd that you're ignoring Roost given you brought it up as a useful thing for Dragonite to donate in a previous post. Mega Pinsir can potentially just Roost back to Multiscale.

I'll also point out that Dragonite pairs well with, of all things, Aurorus, and the whole "You can switch in an -ater but neither a Sporer nor a Prankster to initiate the combo" thing is relevant.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 340-400 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In other words, if Dragonite+Pinsir leads against Thundurus-Incarnate+Amoonguss, and Aurorus is in the back of Dragonite+Pinsir, that's another way the Rage Powder plan can go awry/way the core has a strong start and can overwhelm Prankster Spore.

I also have no idea why you think it's substantially unusual to be at full health outside of the "early game" in Doubles. If the enemy doesn't get Stealth Rock up and you're not running a stall-y team, a lot of your switches in Doubles are going to occur in the form of a Pokemon fainting and a replacement being sent in. Mega Pinsir may well be at full health in the late game against a fellow HO team.



No, it doesn't need Mega Pinsir in specific? Mega Pinsir is just the best general use partner? There's other -ate effects and Refrigerate or Pixilate Extreme Speed off of 134 Attack is nothing to scoff at, and Dragonite's good coverage is a useful tool for allies. Dragonite itself is also a good user of other Pokemon's Physical coverage thanks to its high stats/useful movepool, and a lot of its flaws in Doubles can be directly patched up by allies, such as bringing in a Guts ally to punish having Burned it. A Magic Guard ally will let it switch into Stealth Rock and ignore Sandstorm, as another example, holding onto Multiscale more consistently.

doesn't kyurem-black or any other mold breaker / teravolt user just shut down this entirely

 

[tehy]

Oh yeah I forgot to say

Ghoul King don't take it too hard because I enjoy a lot of your posts. Just do what I said please

 

[Ghoul King]

Can I just say that Ghoul King posts often combine stunning specific holes in knowledge combined with a lot of combativeness which tends to make the experience really unpleasant because both sides end up having been embarrassed in full view of the forum and in a combative conversation

Like dude, next time you say something a bit dumb, just admit that you did as a baseline, then say 'I admit I was way too high on this and thanks for saying so but I still think it has some merit right now' like I'm on mobile so I'm not going to look but, how good hazards are in doubles isn't as relevant as how good hazards are here and idk

It just feels like you don't really wanna admit the extent to which you were wrong because you had something of a point and then it goes badly from there. Just admit you're wrong and don't beat up on people if they're wrong too

It's baffling how you have a theory that I don't want to admit that I'm wrong posted right after I admit, yet again, that I was wrong about something, in the prior post. I'm the only person in the conversation to explicitly admit to being wrong about anything so far. (The Reptile commenting on forgetting about Dragonite having Roost is the closest thing to an example on anyone else's part) Why on Earth do you think I'm unwilling to admit I'm wrong?

I give combative when I get combative. This conversation started with CorruptedOmega7 starting out by condescending at me and informing me that I'm obviously an ignoramus who should not be listened to. I'm not inclined to take that lying down, certainly not when factually incorrect statements are being used to boot. I'm civil when other people are civil.

Oh yeah I forgot to say

Ghoul King don't take it too hard because I enjoy a lot of your posts. Just do what I said please

I'm not going to agree to modify my behavior premised on a statement that is incorrect.

I do appreciate you mentioning that it's not simply intended to offend.

Derp. Still, double resists Rock and otherwise pairs nicely, and can deal with Heatran with Close Combat, so weakness to Heat Wave is manageable since the only other Flying resist is, you know, Magcargo/also weak to Fighting.

doesn't kyurem-black or any other mold breaker / teravolt user just shut down this entirely

... no? Like, yeah, it ignores Multiscale, but that's... not the primary point of Aerilate Extreme Speed spam? It's just a benefit Dragonite brings to the table while enabling such.

 

[ryo yamada2001]

It's baffling how you have a theory that I don't want to admit that I'm wrong posted right after I admit, yet again, that I was wrong about something, in the prior post. I'm the only person in the conversation to explicitly admit to being wrong about anything so far. (The Reptile commenting on forgetting about Dragonite having Roost is the closest thing to an example on anyone else's part) Why on Earth do you think I'm unwilling to admit I'm wrong?

I give combative when I get combative. This conversation started with CorruptedOmega7 starting out by condescending at me and informing me that I'm obviously an ignoramus who should not be listened to. I'm not inclined to take that lying down, certainly not when factually incorrect statements are being used to boot. I'm civil when other people are civil.



I'm not going to agree to modify my behavior premised on a statement that is incorrect.

I do appreciate you mentioning that it's not simply intended to offend.




Derp. Still, double resists Rock and otherwise pairs nicely, and can deal with Heatran with Close Combat, so weakness to Heat Wave is manageable since the only other Flying resist is, you know, Magcargo/also weak to Fighting.



... no? Like, yeah, it ignores Multiscale, but that's... not the primary point of Aerilate Extreme Speed spam? It's just a benefit Dragonite brings to the table while enabling such.

so quick guard beats this

 

[Ghoul King]

so quick guard beats this

Winning the predict with Quick Guard can eat both Mega Pinsir and Dragonite's turns, yes, but losing the predict with Quick Guard means you had a Pokemon sit around and do nothing for a turn while they both got in work. For Quick Guard to beat the core reliably, it needs to be partnered with something where they must use their priority move(s) to not die horribly, which is a surprisingly high bar to achieve in Doubles. In Triples it's fairly easy to produce a no-win situation where one of your Pokemon Quick Guards and the opponent can't really do anything to save themselves, but in Doubles Quick Guard almost always requires good prediction to beat priority-based threats.

Also Mega Pinsir gets Feint, so the "tl;dr" answer is "No".

 

[ryo yamada2001]

Winning the predict with Quick Guard can eat both Mega Pinsir and Dragonite's turns, yes, but losing the predict with Quick Guard means you had a Pokemon sit around and do nothing for a turn while they both got in work. For Quick Guard to beat the core reliably, it needs to be partnered with something where they must use their priority move(s) to not die horribly, which is a surprisingly high bar to achieve in Doubles. In Triples it's fairly easy to produce a no-win situation where one of your Pokemon Quick Guards and the opponent can't really do anything to save themselves, but in Doubles Quick Guard almost usually requires good prediction to beat priority-based threats.

Also Mega Pinsir gets Feint, so the "tl;dr" answer is "No".

and when dragonite dies this core is essentially useless, which forces you to play around having this core on the field as much as possible in order for it to work, otherwise dragonite provides basically nothing apart from multiscale. the core still doesn't do anything against pranksterspore and mega pinsir and dragonite are both weak to a lot of common moves, and stand alone they're quite poor. sorry, i don't think this will work.

 

[canno]

Rock Slide, Stone Edge, and Seismic Toss if for some reason you expect to pair up with a wall. Meanwhile, pretty much everything appreciates Knock Off, even walls and Special attackers, albeit less so than in a Singles environment.

There's other stuff that's really niche and iffy like Fury Attack/Double Hit that I'm not going to make a case for but will point out have potential relevance. They're unlikely to be meta-relevant, but the potential for combinatorial madness means they're worth keeping in mind.

Those are coverage option - everything gives coverage options. The only notable thing out of what you listed is Rock Slide due to it being a spread move but tons of stuff can donate Rock Slide. Also no, you are probably not going to be pairing up M-Pinsir with a wall considering what type of team you have.

You didn't even address the main point with Koff - a lot of what wants to run Koff already gets it with a few exceptions that don't really pair up well.

It's a damage increase comparable to Life Orb for free against anything that isn't part Electric and against Fighting, Grass, and Bug types it doubles your damage output on that Fake Out. (Unless they were part Electric -so Galvantula- in which case you're still ahead of an unboosted Fake Out)

Scizor, for instance, is normally able to shrug off Fake Out in Doubles, only being concerned with the fact that it misses a turn in the process. Mega Pinsir's own Fake Out does a minimum of 25% to bulky Scizor, which is a rather alarming amount to be taking for "free".

Again, its a nice benefit to have a stronger Fake Out with a stronger type, but its not really have big of a deal in the long run. Maybe if Aerialte was always active, but Aerialte Fake Out is held back a bit by

... Genesect is legal in Doubles. So is Deoxys, and Deoxys Attack usually runs Extreme Speed in Doubles. Lucario gets Extreme Speed and is liable to be a great choice to bring on many teams thanks to its excellent movepool, and even its Flinch-related Abilities are kind of nice to spread around, and it shares exactly zero weaknesses with Mega Pinsir.

What are you talking about?

Right, that's my bad. I'm not too familiar with Doubles OU banlist. All of those mons have the same issues, however - none of them really benefit from M-Pinsir outside of maybe getting Earthquake / Rock Slide?

The issue with Lucario is that it itself is not a very viable mon - the only viable Lucario set is probably Mega Lucario, which you cannot run.

That's simplifying a bit and assuming you don't have, like, Sylveon in the back. Scarf Sylveon is usable in Doubles without a freely spammable Boomburst. Pairing it with Noivern is liable to be a fairly strong combo that mostly needs anti-Heatran coverage. (Oh look, Mega Pinsir provides that!)

Keep in mind that Heatran will probably want to pair itself up with a Levitate user, so Earthquake is probably not going to hit. That's not to say that Heatran will always have Levitate, but its not unlikely in the slightest. Hell, Earthquake doesn't even OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Noivern Earthquake vs. 180 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 265-317 (72 - 86.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

That leaves Close Combat, which does not 2HKO.

I will go on and assume that you are not paring up M-Pinsir with Sylveon, but even if you were for some reason Earthquake and Close Combat do even less.

Sylveon doesn't even begin to cover your shared weaknesses from your 3 flying-types - Sylveon will not appreciate Rock Slides, and it doesn't particularly resists Ice- and Electric-attacks. Hell, the only thing it covers is Dragon weakness, which is the least of M-Pinsir teams' worries.

All right, I forgot about Thundurus being able to use Rage Powder, but I will note that if Dragonite has Safety Goggles you're instead down Amoonguss and Thundurus is injured while nothing has been Spored, so it's still overall advantaged as a matchup toward Dragonite+Mega Pinsir.

Or I can Spore M-Pinsir because that can't have Safety Goggles. Again, though, its not the best play to go for.

... I find it odd that you're ignoring Roost given you brought it up as a useful thing for Dragonite to donate in a previous post. Mega Pinsir can potentially just Roost back to Multiscale.

I'm not sure why you felt the need to mention this - especially in a Doubles environment, Roosting up to Multiscale is rare because you can be double attacked and because moves like Fake Out exist. I mean, sure it can Roost up to max HP, but its not a good idea to assume that it's going to be able to - at least not to max. Then there's the likes of Sandstorm and Burn that will break your Multiscale.

I'll also point out that Dragonite pairs well with, of all things, Aurorus, and the whole "You can switch in an -ater but neither a Sporer nor a Prankster to initiate the combo" thing is relevant.

252+ Atk Refrigerate Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Thundurus: 340-400 (113.7 - 133.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

In other words, if Dragonite+Pinsir leads against Thundurus-Incarnate+Amoonguss, and Aurorus is in the back of Dragonite+Pinsir, that's another way the Rage Powder plan can go awry/way the core has a strong start and can overwhelm Prankster Spore.

Sure, you can do something ridiculous like that, but that also requires you to use Auroros. You're not going to tell me Auroros is viable in the slightest, are you? Even if you do I can see your Aurorus - I can play accordingly, but that opens up a box of predictions that will vary game to game.

That's not important, however - the point was that you said M-Pinsir + Dnite win 100% of the time when that is flat out wrong.

I also have no idea why you think it's substantially unusual to be at full health outside of the "early game" in Doubles. If the enemy doesn't get Stealth Rock up and you're not running a stall-y team, a lot of your switches in Doubles are going to occur in the form of a Pokemon fainting and a replacement being sent in. Mega Pinsir may well be at full health in the late game against a fellow HO team.

Because things like Fake Out exist. Because the only way you're going to stay at 100% HP is by playing perfectly due to ExtremeSpeed being a single-target move.

Its not likely, but it is possible. Remember that even losing a tick of HP takes away your Mutliscale.

No, it doesn't need Mega Pinsir in specific? Mega Pinsir is just the best general use partner? There's other -ate effects and Refrigerate or Pixilate Extreme Speed off of 134 Attack is nothing to scoff at, and Dragonite's good coverage is a useful tool for allies. Dragonite itself is also a good user of other Pokemon's Physical coverage thanks to its high stats/useful movepool, and a lot of its flaws in Doubles can be directly patched up by allies, such as bringing in a Guts ally to punish having Burned it. A Magic Guard ally will let it switch into Stealth Rock and ignore Sandstorm, as another example, holding onto Multiscale more consistently.

Yes it does. Mega Pinsir is the only viable way to get a usable -ate and the main subject was Mega Pinsir + Dnite combo. The other -ates, while not weak, are definitely not nearly as viable, not to mention the only other -ate user that is viable (i.e. not aurorus of all things) is Sylveon. Sylveon + Dragonite is no where near as good (probably not that viable, even) as Mega Pinsir + Dragonite. Noivern _ Sylveon is nowhere near as good as Mega Pinsir. You've got this situation where Dragonite + Mega Pinsir are not very good when separated for both the teams and themselves unless you build around benefiting from Mega Pinsir, and if you do then your team becomes overly reliant on Mega Pinsir.

As a side note, Magic Guard users do not pair up nicely with Dragonite, and only serve to benefit Dragonite (which makes it a bad combo imho, since you're using the combo potential to patch up a weaker Pokemon when you could just be using a better Pokemon in a better combo). Guts pairs up a bit better but not by a lot. It doesn't help that, according to the Doubles OU Viabilty ranking, none of them are particularly viable.

Even if its just Mega Pinsir + Dnite, the second one of them dies the other becomes much weaker. This is not the case for something like Thundy-I + Amoongus - Thundy-I will be powerful no matter what teammate it has, and Amoongus will be a great support no matter what teammate it has. It just so happens that Thundy-I and Amoongus work almost perfectly together, making them a deadly combo.

Now lets look at M-Pinsir + Dnite. Mega Pinsir is fairly mediocre without a Espeeder (best one being Dragonite) with it, and Dragonite is (from what I understand) a joke on its own unless it is paired up with an -ate user (best one being Mega Pinsir) and requires Aerilate specifically in order to reach a good to great level of viability. Other -ates just make it "usable". This is what I'm trying to get at - M-Pinsir and Dnite are way too reliant on each other because they aren't viable enough without the other. If Amoongus were to die, Thundy-I would still be a huge threat. If Thundy-I dies, Amoongus can still support the rest of its teammates. This is the point that I have attempted to get across, and honestly you haven't actually adressed this point - even on my first post you quoted you completely skipped over the first chunk of my paragraph (the chunk that had my main argument on it, mind you) and went into the latter half which was an expansion of the first part.

For the sake of the thread not turning into "Ghoul King vs The World" I'll breifly re-state the main points of my first post (and main argument), tweaking it a bit to fit the discussion. In fact, I'll even provide it in bullet point form because I need to go soon and don't feel like writing another paragraph. Unless the points below are contested, I will more than likely stop replying to this particular subject.

• Thundurus-I and Amoongus are both exceptional Pokemon, and do not need to be with each other (or any other specific combo) to be viable
• They also provide a lot to their teammates no matter who it is, without having to butcher their movepool (i.e. they themselves can use every move in their movepool while also providing a benefit to any teammates)
• Mega Pinsir and Dragonite more or less require each other to be relevant - without each other, both of them fall hard in viability
• They also do not provide much to other teammates outside the combo, need to use moves for the sake of being useful (like Dragonite), or can only give benefits to very specific mons. Note that I didn't say they don't provide anything. This is heavily compounded when you consider that the Pokemon themselves are not very viable.
• Mega Pinsir + Dragonite, while being good, is not exceptionally amazing for these reasons.

 

[CorruptedOmega]

The reason why I went off at Ghoul King is because I was irritated that people kept posting here trying to use their experience in Singles to justify their theorymoning for a Doubles OM, which just doesn't work at all. Doubles has a comparitvly small player base so most people don't really understand what is viable/effective. Many posts here have been under informed and misleading. This isn't helped by the fact that Doubles is a relatively fluid meta and is still evolving. I didn't mean to be an asshole, I just wanted people to stop posting un-informed opinions.

tl;dr if you haven't played or aren't experienced with ORAS Doubles, you should probably be cautious on what you post and make sure you know what you're talking about.

 

[Akumeoy]

this is an awful lot of longposting and sore feelings about a meta that, i really must emphasize, literally nobody has ever actually properly played. the theorymonning is unavoidable but maybe we could like, at least cool it on the big long arguments and being flabbergasted at how ignorant everybody else is and so forth that would be great.

What would some cool partners be for Cresselia?

 

[InfernapeTropius11]

this is an awful lot of longposting and sore feelings about a meta that, i really must emphasize, literally nobody has ever actually properly played. the theorymonning is unavoidable but maybe we could like, at least cool it on the big long arguments and being flabbergasted at how ignorant everybody else is and so forth that would be great.

What would some cool partners be for Cresselia?

Heatran imo. Apparently that's already a good core in some doubles metas, but now it gives Tran Levitate, Calm Mind, and Recovery, and while it doesn't gain too much back, it can set Trick Room (for Eruption spam), has a new Fire immunity, and can generally just sit there being fat.

 

[tehy]

i came to make final post

firstly Ghoul King looking back at the beginning of the argument, i definitely don't see omega as the initiator of the generalized combative tone. I see it by far as you. And on top of that, I haven't seen you really walk back your hazards being good / used in doubles thing. You did every part of the argument except the part where you come out and say 'i was wrong'. The parts afterwards can be interpreted in a lens of 'i admit i was wrong BUT', and i'm sure that's what you wanna say, but you still didn't come out and say you were wrong. In general, you also just kind of up the ante. And this isn't the first time I have seen you argue and felt this way

also this is something I myself have struggled with in the past and likely still do. not trying to be above anyone (not sure if anyone thinks i was or not, just saying), just saying

But finally I too came to theorymon a core: Jirachi + Dragonite.

Jirachi @ Safety Goggles
Ability: Serene Grace
EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Follow Me
- Protect
- Zen Headbutt

Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Extreme Speed
- Earthquake

So I know what you're thinking, sigh, tehy, what a Basic combo. OK, Jirachi is finna let dragonite set up? That's fine, even the multiscale pass is no problem, here come my super-powerful fire and ground attacks to break it, when suddenly

That's right. Meanwhile you are now up against a DD'd Jirachi, which we here call 'entering flinchtown, with a side order of pain'.

Some side notes: DD Dnite gets to have serene grace iron head to donk fairies, Jirachi can pass Fire Punch or Dnite can, Rachi and nite's EV spreads are super customizable

this core has some problems in that its mons aren't that versatile with other mons and it's not that amazing either. But I just like the idea of double redirection + double setup, hoping this post turns more people on to that idea and we'll see what they do with it.

 

[Imperator Romanum]

I don't have a chance to follow this discussion, you guys are arguing poorly.
You're all nitpicking each-others human mistakes, or you're arguing specifics. Like, yes, we all know exactly how Extreme speed and Prankster spore effects the metagame - it's been seen time and time again in metagame's like sketchmons and Balanced hackmons.

What you're not accounting for is that this is doubles format, it's never going to favour stall. That's just not the nature of Doubles. Quick guard or whatever it's called is there, and Spore isn't very common - two viable pokemon learn it. Whilst Amoongus might be viable in OU, it's still not all to hard to counter or check. Well I'm rambling, the point I'm trying to make is that

a) This metagame is most likely not going to get coded, it's not going to happen for a long, long time as it's almost impossible to code.

b) you're all theorymonning, none of you have played this game nor have you played anything similar to this - because there never has been.

c) you're being children, and you're arguing and taking offence to a ridiculous discussion, making this huuuuge posts where you reply every argument individually is a stupid way of arguing. You're just picking each other with sticks until one of you gets offended - like, 90% of people don't even read them because it's just... blah.

d) again, this is doubles and nothing like we've ever seen before - stop trying to ban anything at all lol. Just leave the metagame alone until it atleast gets coded.

 

[DinaIsha]

like, 90% of people don't even read them because it's just... blah.

Very valid point you make there, I see. "just... blah". Very wise choice of words. /sarcasm off

On a serious note, Prankster does seem a broken. First thing I could think of was Heatran and Ferrothorn. Heatran gets Iron Barbs, which compliments its Special bulk. Move-wise, it gets Leech Seed, which again is a boon. Ferrothorn's biggest advantage is getting Flash Fire, obviously. But it also gets Will O Wisp. It will be pretty hard to take down the pair together seeing as how they can Leech and Burn the opponent and stall them out easily. I haven ever played doubles though. So I have no idea if they could be beaten easily or not. This was just my two cents. Cool meta, Snaq.

 

[Spandan]

Snip, waiting to fix bugs
Until then you can watch the replay
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1732

 

[CorruptedOmega]

Snip, waiting to fix bugs
Until then you can watch the replay
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1732

Thank you so much for coding this fren, I'm really looking forward to playing it. I want to bring up some glitches just to let people know or in case you missed them.

If you have a Pokemon on your team with less than four moves, the game will crash. This occurred when I led with a Pokemon without a full moveset or if I tried to switch to one. I don't think this one is that big a deal since there's really no reason to not use your whole moveset and the glitch can be easily avoided entirely, but I just wanted to throw it out there. Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1741 In this replay I attempt to lead with Rotom who only knows one move.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1742 In this replay I attempt to lead with Gengar who only knows three moves.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1743 In this replay I attempt to switch to Rotom who only knows one move.

This one is weird...I discovered it while playing against Yellow Paint, although I'm not entirely sure what caused it. For whatever reason my Pokemon started out speeding my opponent when they shouldn't have, e.g. Rotom-Wash outspeeding a +2 Mega Diancie. I think it might have something to do with Sand Rush, but again, I really have no idea. Although I haven't been able to recreate this, I'm gonna keep testing. Replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1736

This one is pretty significant. If you use your partner's Protect and switch out your partner, it should fail; however, it does not. I tried this with both Pokemon having Protect and with only one having Protect, and although it should have failed both times it didn't do it either time. When I tried to use my partner's Detect and have my partner switch, however, it failed, as it should have. edit: When protect failed it failed because it was the only move being used that turn, not because the partner switched as it should have. It that was the case (namely that Protect failed since its partner switched) it should have displayed "But there was no PP left for the move!"
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1746



I don't think these are glitches so much as simple oversights.

What if the two Pokemon have the same ability?
The ability won't stack, and thus nothing special will happen.

What about Trace?
It just copies the ability of one of the opponents.

In it's current state, abilities will stack, and Trace copies both opponent's abilities. edit: Trace only copies one ability if it is activated by the user, however, the partner that gains Trace from its ally will activate it four times, twice for each of the opposing Pokemon's abilities. Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1749
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1750



Again, thank you for the time you've put into this. Hopefully all the bugs will get worked out and we can enjoy this OM. Thanks!

edit: I underlined some areas of my post where added stuff since I don't think I explained myself super clearly originally

 

[Spandan]

Thank you so much for coding this fren, I'm really looking forward to playing it. I want to bring up some glitches just to let people know or in case you missed them.

If you have a Pokemon on your team with less than four moves, the game will crash. This occurred when I led with a Pokemon without a full moveset or if I tried to switch to one. I don't think this one is that big a deal since there's really no reason to not use your whole moveset and the glitch can be easily avoided entirely, but I just wanted to throw it out there. Here are some replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1741 In this replay I attempt to lead with Rotom who only knows one move.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1742 In this replay I attempt to lead with Gengar who only knows three moves.
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1743 In this replay I attempt to switch to Rotom who only knows one move.

This one is weird...I discovered it while playing against Yellow Paint, although I'm not entirely sure what caused it. For whatever reason my Pokemon started out speeding my opponent when they shouldn't have, e.g. Rotom-Wash outspeeding a +2 Mega Diancie. I think it might have something to do with Sand Rush, but again, I really have no idea. Although I haven't been able to recreate this, I'm gonna keep testing. Replay:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1736

This one is pretty significant. If you use your partner's Protect and switch out your partner, it should fail; however, it does not. I tried this with both Pokemon having Protect and with only one having Protect, and although it should have failed both times it didn't do it either time. When I tried to use my partner's Detect and have my partner switch, however, it failed, as it should have. edit: When protect failed it failed because it was the only move being used that turn, not because the partner switched as it should have. It that was the case (namely that Protect failed since its partner switched) it should have displayed "But there was no PP left for the move!"
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1746



I don't think these are glitches so much as simple oversights.
In it's current state, abilities will stack, and Trace copies both opponent's abilities. edit: Trace only copies one ability if it is activated by the user, however, the partner that gains Trace from its ally will activate it four times, twice for each of the opposing Pokemon's abilities. Replays:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1749
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/haze-partnersincrime-1750



Again, thank you for the time you've put into this. Hopefully all the bugs will get worked out and we can enjoy this OM. Thanks!

edit: I underlined some areas of my post where added stuff since I don't think I explained myself super clearly originally

Oh my god, Thanks a lot! you saved me a lot of work discovering these bugs.
I fixed the crash that occurs when you have less than 4 moves on a Pokemon, and also the abilities wont stack anymore. I also fixed Trace (it doesnt activate every turn and after every move). I am still wondering what caused Rotom-W to outspeed a +2 Mega Diancie though... I guess I'll figure that out too!
Playablity: Dragon Heaven, and also ROM! Thanks urkerab :)
Code: its on DH's github repo, link is in my signature

 

[LorisMasta17]

This meta sounds like a ton of fun.

Here is a cool idea that idk if anybody has posted yet

Machamp @ Life Orb
Ability: No Guard
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Dynamic Punch
- Bullet Punch
- Knock Off
- Ice Punch

Durant @ Life Orb
Ability: Hustle
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- X-Scissor
- Iron Head
- Stone Edge
- Rock Polish

Two mons that have Hustle and No Guard.

Machamp gives Durant STAB priority and good coverage.
Durant gives Machamp coverage for birds and fairies as well Speed boosting.
Hone Claws or Power-up-Punch could also be used but these are already strong af.

 

[urkerab]

Oh my god, Thanks a lot! you saved me a lot of work discovering these bugs.
I fixed the crash that occurs when you have less than 4 moves on a Pokemon, and also the abilities wont stack anymore. I also fixed Trace (it doesnt activate every turn and after every move). I am still wondering what caused Rotom-W to outspeed a +2 Mega Diancie though... I guess I'll figure that out too!
Playablity: Dragon Heaven, and also ROM! Thanks urkerab :)
Code: its on DH's github repo, link is in my signature

Note that ROM (deliberately) has different code to Dragon Heaven; this means that people can compare bugs between the two servers to find whose code is better. Right now I'm struggling with Flash Fire, which is both an Ability and an Effect...