Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 9 - Let It Go

[sims796]

I have literally had no issues facing down Kyurem. Probably because of the fact that a lot of my teams tend to be more flexible and can handle something like Kyurem. Playing with AND against it allows you to see both sides of the equation, and a lot of people lack that insight.

Excuse me? I'm pretty sure the majority here with the reqs for actually voting has actually played with and against the frost dragon. That isn't some rare feat.

My low level shit teams tended to do well against Bloodmoon. Doesn't make Bloodmoon not broken., or my shit teams not shit.

 

[TheTraininator]

It is always the same. "This mon can do all these things at once". But it rly cannot.

This point would potentially be pertinent if, say, it had to use 5 different sets to put pressure on the entirety of the meta with each of them being incredibly specialized and limited in scope as to what types of team builds it can pressure. But when we’re talking about Kyurem, that’s not remotely the case. Specs Kyurem just singlehandedly invalidates a lot of defensive teambuilding because it’s just impossible to switch into Freeze Dry/EP/Beam/Draco. It doesn’t want for any other moves and its need for team support mostly just boils down to hazard removal since it’s so damn ridiculously bulky that it finds times to force progress all by itself. The other sets it has are mostly just icing on the cake, but even if it could only run this one set, it would probably still be banworthy because it just isn’t healthy for defensive teams to have to run Slowking-G on every single build and also to just prey they get their plays right to not get slaughtered by it.

 

[Marcelloc2]

I feel like every other month I read a Suspect Test thread and see someone say "Variety of sets isn't an argument to ban something", yes it is. It very obviously is to most people, because it creates worse interactions.

If a Pokemon has many sets of pretty equal power, you cannot play around it as well. If you think it's one set so you switch to the Physical Kyurem counter, and it's the Special one, you are probably going to get blown up. Vice versa. Variety in Pokemon absolutely does make individual mons more broken, because if there is not individual Pokemon that can reliably wall most sets, it's going to become essentially impossible to prep adequately for every set.

Not sure why people think bringing up a variety in sets is a fallacy with every suspect test.

False. Being versityle isn't a valid argument and it doesn't make anything broken.

Take 2 OU staples: Lando-T and Clef. At one point, lando could run scarf, lead, defensive, SD wallbreaker, double dance, having a variety of moves like knock off, toxic, HP ice, defog, protect, smack down and SR. All of that made possible for you to face lando playing at least 5 different viable roles, with many possible movesets each.
Clef could run wish/pass, unaware, cosmic/stored power, CM, SR, teleport pivot and life orb.
So these 2 mons, which have been OU for more than a decade now, could run way more sets than Kyu.
Most people could lose to, say, double dance lando, if they switched expecting a u-turn, same goes for Clef. It doesn't mean they were broken in any way. A mon being versityle adds a lot to the game, so that you won't be facing the same thing every single time, so that you actually have to think and (1) analyze the opposing team to deduce the most likely set and (2) scout for different sets.

 

[Paternozzo]

False. Being versityle isn't a valid argument and it doesn't make anything broken.

Take 2 OU staples: Lando-T and Clef. At one point, lando could run scarf, lead, defensive, SD wallbreaker, double dance, having a variety of moves like knock off, toxic, HP ice, defog, protect, smack down and SR. All of that made possible for you to face lando playing at least 5 different viable roles, with many possible movesets each.
Clef could run wish/pass, unaware, cosmic/stored power, CM, SR, teleport pivot and life orb.
So these 2 mons, which have been OU for more than a decade now, could run way more sets than Kyu.
Most people could lose to, say, double dance lando, if they switched expecting a u-turn, same goes for Clef. It doesn't mean they were broken in any way. A mon being versityle adds a lot to the game, so that you won't be facing the same thing every single time, so that you actually have to think and (1) analyze the opposing team to deduce the most likely set and (2) scout for different sets.

In my opinion it's very different when a breaker or sweeper has very different sets that require very different answers, compared to when a "glue" kind of mon does.
Using your examples, even if clef can run vastly different sets you can assume that pex will 99% of the time do the job, independently of the clef's set. Of course pex is a very specific example, but if even you have to burn a turn against these kinds of mons to scout the set it's usually not the end of the world and it can be played around.
Now when it comes to sweepers it's way different: giving it one free turn to set up or start spamming insanely powerful attacks because you guessed the set wrong has way more repercussions and it could be immediately game-losing.

 

[Marcelloc2]

In my opinion it's very different when a breaker or sweeper has very different sets that require very different answers, compared to when a "glue" kind of mon does.

Pult can run banded, specs, subs, screens, sash DD. Heck, disable pult is a thing. Should we ban pult next? It is rly frustrating when you switch expecting specs and it ends up being subs or something else. It is also faster, it's signature move (darts) is great, has great coverage, can even run mixed set (which kyurem cannot).
Also, how is what you said applied to lando? It can work just fine as a breaker (SD, soft sand) or sweeper (double dance).

 

[RS25802580]

Pult can run banded, specs, subs, screens, sash DD. Heck, disable pult is a thing. Should we ban pult next? It is rly frustrating when you switch expecting specs and it ends up being subs or something else. It is also faster, it's signature move (darts) is great, has great coverage, can even run mixed set (which kyurem cannot).

Honestly if Gambit/Ting Lu weren’t in the tier Pult would probably be suspected. As of now we have two extremely splashable dark types that check the majority of Pult sets. This doesn’t exist for Kyurem.

I also feel that it’s a whataboutism to divert the conversation by bringing up other mons for comparison. This is a Kyurem suspect, not a Pult suspect. Whether or not Pult is balanced is irrelevant to whether or not Kyurem is balanced.

 

[Baloor]

False. Being versityle isn't a valid argument and it doesn't make anything broken.

Take 2 OU staples: Lando-T and Clef. At one point, lando could run scarf, lead, defensive, SD wallbreaker, double dance, having a variety of moves like knock off, toxic, HP ice, defog, protect, smack down and SR. All of that made possible for you to face lando playing at least 5 different viable roles, with many possible movesets each.
Clef could run wish/pass, unaware, cosmic/stored power, CM, SR, teleport pivot and life orb.
So these 2 mons, which have been OU for more than a decade now, could run way more sets than Kyu.
Most people could lose to, say, double dance lando, if they switched expecting a u-turn, same goes for Clef. It doesn't mean they were broken in any way. A mon being versityle adds a lot to the game, so that you won't be facing the same thing every single time, so that you actually have to think and (1) analyze the opposing team to deduce the most likely set and (2) scout for different sets.

In the context of this suspect, how does prime SS Lando and Clef restrict oneself in builder anywhere near as close to Kyurem? Versatility is a double edged sword of an argument. It definitely is worth mentioning considering game planning is a important part of the game but, there are healthy pokemon in this current tier and prior metagames that could run a plethora of sets. This doesn't change the fact the builder has minimal tools to deal with kyurem, in fact, versatility isn't even important here outside of a brief mention that DD might troll you from time to time if you are not expecting it in game planning. The comparison to Lando Clef back in their prime is just out of place, considering the aforementioned pokemon are nothing alike and their sets mostly shared a reasonable amount of blanket counterplay that didnt give you too much of a headache when building. I feel you were better off mentioning something like current Iron Valiant? DD Kyurem and Regular Boots/Specs Kyurem have completely different checks which is why the "versatility" argument has been brought up a few times.

Pult can run banded, specs, subs, screens, sash DD. Heck, disable pult is a thing. Should we ban pult next? It is rly frustrating when you switch expecting specs and it ends up being subs or something else. It is also faster, it's signature move (darts) is great, has great coverage, can even run mixed set (which kyurem cannot).
Also, how is what you said applied to lando? It can work just fine as a breaker (SD, soft sand) or sweeper (double dance).

this isnt a pult thread but like, maybe we should lol (by maybe we should im referring to looking into it, im not advocating for quickban or anything). theres a few issues that should be addressed before but the mon is ridiculous, the stats will back me up on that and im only thinking of specs/hdb/sash sets. youve basically just brought up another broken to argue for another broken pokemon.

 

[ausma]

I am going to vote to ban Kyurem.

Kyurem undeniably has several setbacks that make it less of the EV demon it was last generation, and I've seen a good deal of arguments talking about how removing Kyurem from the tier would not actually address much due to fundamental problems we see in the tier that stem beyond just a single Pokemon. I've also seen people talk about how it is a necessary evil in some regards due to it being a fairly autonomous balance buster and being a Pokemon that applies pressure toward team styles like Rain that have become more commonplace. On paper, I see where these arguments come from, and to an extent I do believe there's truth behind them.

However, the simple fact of the matter is that Kyurem's only direct form of counterplay is predicting correctly and quickly, and as such creates an immense imbalance in risk v. reward when playing and building against Kyurem compositions. What makes this an actual problem in and of itself in comparison to other standard wallbreakers is that there are layers of prediction that generally have to be made in order to buffer it correctly and how it has the tools/set variety to mitigate its own setbacks. Its raw strength on the Special side, synergy with Tera, and the potency of some newfound tools like Loaded Dice, Snow, and Tera Blast greatly downplay how consistently and carefully you can respond to it (lest you are punished by a potential sweep), especially when counterplay differs so greatly across these sets. Hazards, a very common response to it, can only take you so far when several of its sets only need one or two turns to make absurd levels of progress and have the leverage to seize control of games due to Tera helping to either make its STABs so strong that you don't even need to predict with them or to make it far more difficult to take down efficiently. HDB variants have also sprung up as a way to ignore hazards entirely, and while it really misses having Roost, not having to predict and having access to Tera/a highly relevant Speed benchmark make up the difference in making it a consistent wallbreaker. What really makes this egregious is the fact that Kyurem is stupidly easy to support and stupidly easy to pair with Pokemon like Alolan Ninetales and Galarian Slowking, both of which can set Snow and enable it just by doing what they're meant to do anyway, compared to something like Gouging Fire or Roaring Moon which are a bit tricky to fit onto teams and core effectively.

As such, I do believe Kyurem is a direct contributor to why it's so hard to navigate the threat saturation present in the tier. It can easily fit onto teams, be easily enabled, and demands a great deal from the opponent that can make it far harder to respond to other highly potent threats which are a bit harder to fit and enable comparatively. I do not think it is a healthy presence in the tier regardless of whether or not it is solely at fault for the state of things and I think regardless of what is the core issue of the tier, that it is worth removing for the meantime. If it really is important to have in order to check other things, then we should just evaluate those other things on a fundamental level and see what we can do to lower the polarity of the tier instead of relying on imbalanced matchups and metagame conditions to do the job for us.

 

[bigasschungusboi]

Got reqs voting no ban the mon is fine.

Any combo of Spdef walls and Bulky waters can beat this pos very efficiently, not a real threat

(Ignoring the secret stall agenda to keep the breaker that can't break stall in the tier so casuls spam it and not stall-breakers)

 

[Finchinator]

Any combo of Spdef walls and Bulky waters can beat this pos very efficiently, not a real threat

Kyurem beats every bulky water 1v1. Toxapex can at least put it on a clock with Toxic, which is huge, but Substitute variants still sit all over it and Toxapex isn’t very common anymore.

Dondozo, Rotom-Wash, Pelipper, Alomomola, and Milotic are all Kyurem food. This doesn’t even mention needing a combo to contain something isn’t ideal to begin with.

Certain specially defensive walls like GKing and Blissey do well against common Kyurem variants of course, but a large issue here is how balance structures are forced to run GKing due to Kyurem, so I do not think your post moves the needle at all.

 

[Magcargo]

Kyurem beats every bulky water 1v1. Toxapex can at least put it on a clock with Toxic, which is huge, but Substitute variants still sit all over it and Toxapex isn’t very common anymore.

Dondozo, Rotom-Wash, Pelipper, Alomomola, and Milotic are all Kyurem food. This doesn’t even mention needing a combo to contain something isn’t ideal to begin with.

Certain specially defensive walls like GKing and Blissey do well against common Kyurem variants of course, but a large issue here is how balance structures are forced to run GKing due to Kyurem, so I do not think your post moves the needle at all.

Ironically, Gking incentivizes Kyurem usage since it pairs quite well with its best set (boots), providing it with FS support, boosted defense, T-Wave support,, and a free switch, which I find it appreciates even vs targets like Gliscor or Meowscarada because Kyurem does not like switching into Knock Off.

The most annoying Kyurem builds I faced on ladder were Gking + Kyurem builds, largely as these builds double down on the elements that can make Kyurem annoying, such as its good MU into Rain. That being said, I have found that applying pressure on Gking with mons like Samurott-H or Gambit does somewhat dimish this core's efficiency, since Kyurem will have a more difficult time getting free switch-ins to begin wrecking havoc.

 

[Magcargo]

So I am still a bit unsure of what decision to make even after getting reqs, but currently I am leaning towards the DNB side, though my mind could be swayed with enough reasoning.

Kyurem is one of those Pokemon that is difficult to answer in the builder, but I haven't found it to be too overbearing in practice. The primary issue is that Kyurem has a difficult time switching into anything in this metagame, even stuff in theory it should be matching up well against. Stray Knock Off's from Gliscor, Ruination chip from Ting-Lu, Play Rough Coverage from Ogerpon-W etc. all take there toll on Kyurem, and it is heavily reliant on pivoting support from Gking and Corv to get in safely. Its bulk gets the job done fine in 1v1 MUs, and its bulk does get enhanced greatly by Hail, but even with Hail support, I still don't find it espicially easy to switch in.

That being said, requiring support to switch in isn't the end of the world - after all, Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu couldn't exactly switch into much either and both were still undeniably broken. Comparing Kyurem to either would be overselling its capabilities though. Its power is high, but not overbeariningly so and its speed, while good for its power, still is getting outsped by a fair few number of threats including Pult, Boulder, etc. Even if its coverage is superb, it is still relying on a 70 BP STAB move + 90 BP coverage to mostly handle everything (though Draco can certainly be scary). The lack of any special setup move is also notable, though Dragon Dance is a solid set in its own right.

I have seen some players point out that BO and Balance are relegated to Slowking-G as a check. I can't comment too much on Balance, but I think there is more room for checks on Bulky Offense. Kyurem's threat level isn't entirely permanent, so temporary checks on Bulky Offense such as Balloon Steels and AV Mon get the job done fine enough on these builds as checks imo, while also having good match-up coverage into other threats like Roaring Moon and Raging Bolt, respectively. I find that Bulky Offense in general is good at directly pressuring Kyurem, as this team style has a number of faster attackers that can threaten it with big damage such as Valiant, Dragapult, etc, though it does also pack its fair share of Kyurem prey such as Tusk and Lando-T.

Kyurem is a fine user of Tera, but I'd say its more hurt by the mechanic due to its lack of a special setup move. Physical DD sets are fine Tera users with Tera blast as a strong coverage option, but I don't find them to be higher value then other Tera candidates such as Iron Valiant or Kingambit. Tera Fairy is one of the most common defensive Tera Types and it gives multiple Pokemon a much more managable time against special Kyurem due to being hit only neutrally by its base 70 BP STAB move + being immune to Draco / Scale Shot. This can give certain teams an additional out vs Kyurem should other countermeasures fail.

The two main "banworthy" elements I find about Kyurem are its set versatility and its ability to freeze. DD and special sets have fairly different counters, which can spell death if one switches, say, Slowking-G into DD, giving Kyurem an additional free turn to either setup again, or get off big damage to your initial counter measure. Freeze is only 10% chance, but its mostly doing the same crap, giving Kyurem more free turns and eliminating potential counterplay. That being said, this level of hax potential or versatility isn't unheard of in OU, with mons like Oger having similar game swinging odds to get a crit on Ivy Cudgel, or Valiant being similar versatile (imo notably more dangerous due to it being so much faster with Booster energy).

Overall, I wouldn't be terribly upset to see Kyurem go, but I can't say in good conscious that it is more banworthy than many existing threats in the metagame such as Kingambit, Dragapult, and Iron Valiant, all of which I find to be (mostly) balanced. As I said in an earlier post, I do feel that Kyurem does some good for the metagame due to its strong Rain and Gliscor match-ups and I see both becoming more problematic should it leave. I feel that examining other dragons such as Gouging Fire or Raging Bolt would do more for teambuilding than banning Kyurem, which IMO is somewhat more limited in its scope of destruction.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

i haven't been very active on the forums lately because i've been super busy between moving, training for my new job, and trying to get reqs even though i don't have the time, skill, or energy to ever be able to attain them. but i figured i might as well toss in my two cents and say that kyurem is absolutely banworthy. it's the same song and dance as last gen, except instead of roost it's got snow buffs and loaded dice and chilly reception pivot support and the ability to tera through its offensive "checks". i still approve of the decision to drop it from ubers at the beginning of the dlc, but kyurem has proven by now that it still belongs in ubers

 

[viivian]

Got reqs voting no ban the mon is fine.

Any combo of Spdef walls and Bulky waters can beat this pos very efficiently, not a real threat

it has freeze-dry for water types and every special wall in the metagame barring blissey is weak to ice beam or EP. even then another reason why kyurem is so difficult to handle is because the small handful of checks to one set can easily get obliterated by another. if i switch my blissey into kyurem anticipating it to be choice specs or HDB then what do i do if it's actually running mixed or DD?

 

[bigasschungusboi]

it has freeze-dry for water types and every special wall in the metagame barring blissey is weak to ice beam or EP. even then another reason why kyurem is so difficult to handle is because the small handful of checks to one set can easily get obliterated by another. if i switch my blissey into kyurem anticipating it to be choice specs or HDB then what do i do if it's actually running mixed or DD?

Mixed kyurem is a c-team in most cases considering it needs investment to do what it wants so its either less strong or less fast meaning more offensive teams can pick it off and dd is really simple to handle with something like kingambit or balloon joe that 1v1's cleanly.

 

[viivian]

until kyurem terastallizes fire/electric/ground and either kills you w/ tera blast or sets up another DD? unless you're actively not preserving tera (which isn't advised when using DD kyurem) then beating it is usually not that straightforward. additionally, HDB kyurem does occasionally run mixed sets w/ scale shot which does a fine job at breaking past blissey without you don't even need to invest in attack at all. simply running an attack-neutral nature is enough to get past it

 

[PragaSV]

While Normal Kyurem is a strong Pokemon in the OU metagame, the term "broken" typically implies a Pokemon that significantly distorts the balance of the game, often due to excessive power or lack of reliable counters. Normal Kyurem, though formidable, doesn't generally fall into the category of being considered "broken" in the competitive context.

Giving my two cents on this particular reasoning as many DNB arguments center around this general theme. Tiering Framework, as I understand it, checks for any of these three characteristics that could call for a mon to be suspected and banned - Broken, Uncompetitive or Unhealthy. It is clear that Kyurem either toes the line or is on the safer side of what we could consider "Broken" in this generation, but there can be no denying the fact that its presence is "Unhealthy". As you rightly point out, the mere presence of Kyurem in the metagame forces certain team structures to always run a select few mons, be it G-King or otherwise, to stand a chance at having sufficient counterplay. This is quite clearly the definition of an unhealthy presence, essentially centralising the metagame to a handful of mons and placing a strain on the builder which limits the development of Gen 9 OU.

Kyurem may not be broken, but is sure as hell unhealthy and does not have a place in this tier. Hence, I'm going to be voting Ban.

 

[heileone]

I'm gonna elaborate my position on kyurem for a second and say that I think its a real shame that the freeze status hasnt been sunset. I think this mon could be such a healthy addition to the metagame when it comes to punishing balance structures either through the insane coverage of boots sets or the sheer power of specs sets. It punishes damn near every hazard setter and has resulted in gliscor being bearable and mons like ting lu, hammurot, and gholdengo being pushed out of their top spots in viability. It sits at the perfect speed tier with the perfect coverage and power to rip such structures apart while still having a glaring weakness against offensive teams, and thats a good thing.

However, the way that the current boots set operates is just really uncompetitive, much in the same vein as sleep. Currently, it just fishes the balance v balance matchup and clicks freeze dry or ice beam until your glowking or spdef clef or whatever gets frozen and then just wins. I'm still on the fence because these types of structures really need a hit in their power so we dont return to the hazard stack meta of dlc 1, and at the same time kyurem being banned makes the real evil, rain, even stronger, yet it just feels so bad to lose to the sometimes inevitable 10% chance of freeze. Ultimately I dont care that much and am not particularly invested in the outcome, however I do think there is a definite argument to be made that kyurem is a genuinely healthy metagame presence in some regards.

Edit: I ultimately think an opinion on kyurem generally comes from the style they play. Balance players will want it gone while stall and offense players probably wouldnt mind the decision either way.

 

[Froggy]

​

This suspect test actually turned into my attempt to get back into learning a tier for real for the first time since BW! After about 10 teams, both with and without Kyurem, that had up and downs and a nice tilted all nighter this weekend, I decided to stop spamming the ladder and run an analysis on 2 big components of the tier (Type and Stat Distribution).

The idea behind this originally was just to build a more well rounded team, and was not designed purely for Kyurem, but I feel this information aid's in the Kyurem suspect as well and felt I would share. Please understand that I realize this does not show the entire picture, as it leaves out critical pieces like movepool, team support available (ex: hail), abilities and hold items. I do however believe that stat and type data vs the current tier are extremly viable to understanding a pokemons initial position, and I feel the data accuratly backs what has already been stated about kyurem.

How the study works.
All of my data came from usage stats from the 1st 2 weeks of SPL. I know I could have gotten a large sample using ladder usage stats, but I felt SPL provided a recent and competitive snapshot of the tier in a managable data size.

• Offense Type: I took each type and assigned a value based on its effectiveness against each pokemon used in the useage data (2pts for 4x effective, 1pt for 2x effective, -1pt for 0.5x effective, -2pts for 0.25x effective and -4pts for immune), I then weighted it based on that pokemons usage. (example: Ice would get 1 point for each dragapult used, since 20 were used it would gain a +20 for that line) Ice was the most effective type against the tier with a +76 rating and Poison the least effective with a -416 rating.
  
  

  

  ​
• Deffense Type: Same concept as offense, but I instead applied the number of times a type appreared in the tier and multiplied and its effectivness against each pokemon to get a score, then sumed up each type score to get a total defense ranking. (Ex: Kyurem got a -88 against dragon type, -1pts x 88 dragons used) The number 1 deffense type in the tier is a tie with skarmory and corviknight with 866 points. This is the one field Kyurem strugled in, as it is more likely to have super effective than neutral against it.
• BST, OST and DST: This was fairly standard, I took the base state, Offensive Stats (ATK, SpA, and SPE), and Defensive stats (HP, DEF, SpD) and compared them to the remainder of the tier. The interesting piece to this was that it also provided me with insit into what the tier was heavy on and weak on. There are is a much higher amount of physical attach and defense in the tier than SpA and SpD. This makes Kyurem a potent threat due to its ability to punish this.

Conclusion
While Kyurem only placed 5th in overal ranking against the tier (Dragonite was 1st), it was by far the highest in all forms of offense. Pairing this with its amazing stab and coverage moves, set flexibility and support pokemon, I do feel Kyurem is broken. For these reasons, you are either required to run Kyurem, or center a good amount of your team around checking kyurem. If you look at SPL, Kyurem has only a 30% win rate with 13 showings. This shows not that its not an issue, but that it is so much of one, that everyone is centered around checking it. This can cause other issues, because if your team is centered around checking Kyurem, you could run into issues against non-Kyurem teams. I have expereinced this 1st hand, as my teams either handedly take care of Kyurem and not the rest of the tier or vice verca. I personally am leaning towards Ban, but my vote solely depends on if I can squeek out the required GXE in time, but hopefully my study helped me improve in the tier!

I hope this information helps someone out and would love to hear others interpretations of this data.

 

[Vert]

kyurem doesn't force slowking-g on to teams. you use it because it's a good ass 'mon that got a pivoting move this gen; in fact during dlc1, weather was mid, kyurem didn't exist, and it was still top usage back then. volcarona also fits well on balance and you use it for reasons unrelated to kyurem. another check is weavile which is pretty fucked this gen via tera-ice and is commonly seen on balance.

this tier needs bans, but kyurem isn't one of them. archaludon for example is much more limiting in the team-builder and does nothing for the tier bar make rain bullshit. a kyurem ban however will result in zapdos usage creeping back in and players wanting a gliscor ban, both of which i'd hate to see. not a "broken checks broken" argument. i think kyurem is rather balanced and it's similar to walking wake where it's much more manageable in practice:

| 12 | Kyurem | 13 | 16.25% | 30.77% |
poor spl performance and it's not due to overpreparing. players are simply loading the top-tier 'mons and they all conveniently match well into kyurem. the 'mons i listed aren't the only ways for balance to net a positive kyurem match-up by the way. clefable, dragapult, zamazenta, gholdengo, and kingambit are also commonly seen and can make getting free turns or clicking its moves awkward.

i know this thread is dead and voting goes up soon, but wanted to get my thoughts out. voting do not ban.

 

[Srn]

kyurem doesn't force slowking-g on to teams. you use it because it's a good ass 'mon that got a pivoting move this gen; in fact during dlc1, weather was mid, kyurem didn't exist, and it was still top usage back then. volcarona also fits well on balance and you use it for reasons unrelated to kyurem. another check is weavile which is pretty fucked this gen via tera-ice and is commonly seen on balance.

You're correct that all these mons do more than check kyurem, the problem is that they're all pretty flimsy checks that can lose 1v1 to viable kyurem sets. Glowking is fodder for tera+sub and cannot tera back to beat kyurem, volcarona is ohko'd by rock slide, and weavile loses to scale shot.

this tier needs bans, but kyurem isn't one of them. archaludon for example is much more limiting in the team-builder and does nothing for the tier bar make rain bullshit. a kyurem ban however will result in zapdos usage creeping back in and players wanting a gliscor ban, both of which i'd hate to see. not a "broken checks broken" argument. i think kyurem is rather balanced and it's similar to walking wake where it's much more manageable in practice:

I disagree that a kyurem ban would lead back to zapdos+gliscor dominance. We have plenty of new tools to keep these mons in check, not counting archaludon (which I also hope gets banned). For Zapdos, we are eating good with raging bolt, and we have triple axel options like meow and weavile. The triple axel mons help out vs gliscor too, and funnily enough, ice beam darkrai can also offensively check both now that it can't do the hypnosis bullshit I feared way back when. Darkrai is far more balanced than kyurem now, and could perform a similar role in the meta as offensive zapdos/gliscor checks.

| 12 | Kyurem | 13 | 16.25% | 30.77% |
poor spl performance and it's not due to overpreparing.

Tour performance is never really a strong piece of evidence on its own. For example, during last SPL:
| 19 | Amoonguss | 38 | 10.22% | 73.68% |
Amoongus had a remarkable 73.68% winrate! But obviously not banworthy or unhealthy (sleep abusers would develop much later).
During the same SPL:
| 14 | Garganacl | 54 | 14.52% | 40.74% |
Garg was a mon that was arguably suspect worthy at that time, and was fairly restraining on the builder. Yet only had a poor 40% winrate.

During the current SPL:
| 20 | Enamorus | 10 | 12.50% | 70.00% |
Decent usage and great winrates! But I wouldn't say enamorus is broken or unhealthy rn
| 23 | Gouging Fire | 9 | 11.25% | 44.44% |
Also decent usage and kinda poor winrates, but gouging fire is one of the more controversial mons rn, I think this performance is pretty bullshit.

I can keep finding examples of balanced+healthy mons with great winrates and unhealthy/suspectworthy mons with poor winrates, so it's hard to treat this statistic as anything other than circumstantial.

players are simply loading the top-tier 'mons and they all conveniently match well into kyurem. the 'mons i listed aren't the only ways for balance to net a positive kyurem match-up by the way. clefable, dragapult, zamazenta, gholdengo, dragapult, and kingambit are also commonly seen and can make getting free turns or clicking its moves awkward.

i know this thread is dead and voting goes up soon, but wanted to get my thoughts out. voting do not ban.

With regards to clefable, ghold, kingambit, weavile, volcarona, imma just quote finch:

If you deviate and run things like Volcarona, then you risk Rock Slide/Scale Shot -- same can apply to other shaky "checks" like Clefable (limited recovery, freeze risk a ton, dies to Tera Ice or Specs), Gambit (switches in once and loses to most Tera options), balloon Ghold (does the deed one time), and so on. Stuff like Weavile are cool metagame adaptations recently that can keep Kyurem minimized once or twice over; we can say the same about Scizor on offense or AV Hoopa-U on bulky-o, but nothing is overly reliable. It just feels too flimsy and to warp teambuilding.

And with regards to dragapult, zamazenta, and dragapult again: these are valid offensive checks but they're ultimately flimsy and warp teambuilding too much.

Thread may be dead but it's never a bad time to hear your thoughts.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

Tour performance is never really a strong piece of evidence on its own. For example, during last SPL:
| 19 | Amoonguss | 38 | 10.22% | 73.68% |
Amoongus had a remarkable 73.68% winrate! But obviously not banworthy or unhealthy (sleep abusers would develop much later).
During the same SPL:
| 14 | Garganacl | 54 | 14.52% | 40.74% |
Garg was a mon that was arguably suspect worthy at that time, and was fairly restraining on the builder. Yet only had a poor 40% winrate.

During the current SPL:
| 20 | Enamorus | 10 | 12.50% | 70.00% |
Decent usage and great winrates! But I wouldn't say enamorus is broken or unhealthy rn
| 23 | Gouging Fire | 9 | 11.25% | 44.44% |
Also decent usage and kinda poor winrates, but gouging fire is one of the more controversial mons rn, I think this performance is pretty bullshit.

I can keep finding examples of balanced+healthy mons with great winrates and unhealthy/suspectworthy mons with poor winrates, so it's hard to treat this statistic as anything other than circumstantial.

as another example, darkrai's lackluster performance in upl was the final nail in the coffin for its ubers career and people even called it mid, but then it proved to be uncompetitive with hypnosis, inspiring similarly uncompetitive sets from other fast mons with sleep moves and sparking the discussion that ultimately resulted in sleep moves clause; had sleep clause stayed in place, it likely would have been suspected and possibly banned. i don't consider tour performance a meaningful factor in the brokenness or non-brokenness of something

 

[ant4456]

kyurem doesn't force slowking-g on to teams. you use it because it's a good ass 'mon that got a pivoting move this gen; in fact during dlc1, weather was mid, kyurem didn't exist, and it was still top usage back then. volcarona also fits well on balance and you use it for reasons unrelated to kyurem. another check is weavile which is pretty fucked this gen via tera-ice and is commonly seen on balance.

this tier needs bans, but kyurem isn't one of them. archaludon for example is much more limiting in the team-builder and does nothing for the tier bar make rain bullshit. a kyurem ban however will result in zapdos usage creeping back in and players wanting a gliscor ban, both of which i'd hate to see. not a "broken checks broken" argument. i think kyurem is rather balanced and it's similar to walking wake where it's much more manageable in practice:

| 12 | Kyurem | 13 | 16.25% | 30.77% |
poor spl performance and it's not due to overpreparing. players are simply loading the top-tier 'mons and they all conveniently match well into kyurem. the 'mons i listed aren't the only ways for balance to net a positive kyurem match-up by the way. clefable, dragapult, zamazenta, gholdengo, dragapult, and kingambit are also commonly seen and can make getting free turns or clicking its moves awkward.

i know this thread is dead and voting goes up soon, but wanted to get my thoughts out. voting do not ban.

I'm not gonna pretend SV Kyurem is like some all-time most broken Pokemon or something, it's just kinda mundanely broken where it just does a bit too much. This used to be more common before every new broken Pokemon has insane traits that are pretty obviously broken.

Kyurem kinda reminds me of Mega Metagross in that every check I can think of gets owned by secondary effects. You run Slowking-Galar and 1/10 times it gets hit by the SpDef drop and you're just mega owned, and sent into a new tech chase where you're on the backend. I've seen good matches just kind of ended by Kyurem freezes.

That isn't to say those are why it's broken to me, but it's just something I don't see talked about much. It's kind of like how if Dragapult in SWSH didn't have a 10% SpDef drop it'd arguably be a considerably more balanced Pokemon, though. Kyurem in general just feels like it can muscle its way through anything and that's another way it can, and it's not even that uncommon.

The SPL usage stat also (unless I am reading this wrong) is still only 13 games with Kyurem in it, which is not necessarily too few to make it as part of an argument, but I don't think it proves anything on its own. It's circumstantial at best. I also feel that this data betrays part of your other point, the numerous checks. Clefable is still not that popular. In SPL XV, it has had 1 single use so far, and while Clefable seems to rise as you go to higher ELO cutoffs (at 0 ELO cutoff, it's around 7% usage, at 1895 it's 9%) that's still not some majorly splashable Pokemon. Dragapult is a great offensive answer, but it's far from a switch-in. Zamazenta can switch in once (assuming it is not Draco Meteor, which has an 18.8% chance to OHKO from Specs) it is generally fine, but that's still usually only a one-time answer. Gholdengo cannot switch in to Special sets, regardless of Specs (so HDB 2ATK at minimum makes it not a safe answer either). Unless you use Air Balloon, which is a one-time check, of course. Tera Fire Blast can also win against it, but that requires Tera usage so I am not giving it full credit. Kingambit, same story, Steel-Type cannot really switch into Epower very well. It can force Kyurem out at least in some scenarios, but I don't think I'd call it a long-term answer.

The theme is that it's really hard to find good splashable answers to Kyurem that aren't one-time checks. And one-time checks are not workable for most teamstyles. "It's fine because you can try to win first." That's a strategy that mostly only works for one teamstyle. Kyurem's worst match-up is easily HO. HO can get away with just running one or two soft checks that prevent the Kyurem from getting a kill once, because they can afford to Just Win First. I'd be more down with Kyurem if it had even two long-term answers, but it really just doesn't, they're all temporary, or not Pokemon you can reliably fit onto a team.

While I talk about the "unwallability" of Kyurem, if Kyurem ban is a nerf to any playstyle, it's a nerf to Balance and Bulky Offense, especially Balance. Balance loves these big breakers that can efficiently get kills against opposing balance, and just slap on a Dragapult or something to fight the opponent's offensive threats. So this isn't really me saying "make my playstyle better", because overall I think Kyurem is actually a pretty nice mon for Balance's toolkit. While Kyurem is extremely hard to wall, you can kinda just expect to play the mirror match and just try to outplay it. In the same way that you could slap Urshifu next to two Regenerator Pokemon, having one offensive threat that is this effective at breaking teams systematically makes our teams stronger. There just aren't enough switch-ins outside of temporary checks that die if you throw Kyurem out again, and I don't think that's healthy.

I'm gonna repeat that I don't think Kyurem is the most broken Pokemon ever or anything. I think it's mundanely broken. It just does a little above the board. Just a bit too much. That's all, have a good one everybody.

 

[DaddyBuzzwole]

I'm gonna repeat that I don't think Kyurem is the most broken Pokemon ever or anything. I think it's mundanely broken. It just does a little above the board. Just a bit too much. That's all, have a good one everybody.

i'm going to call this "classic broken" because it's the kind of broken that things banned to ubers typically used to be in older gens. think garchomp, excadrill, salamence, most of the banned megas, etc. most of the bans this gen have been "nu-broken": the kind of broken that makes you go "how did anyone look at this and think it was ok". think marshadow, dracovish, everything in ag

 

[Finchinator]

I still plan to vote ban on Kyurem.

Slowking-G is a good Pokemon regardless of Kyurem as Vert said; I actually really appreciate him posting for the sake of council transparency/communication even if we disagree. Slowking-G's usage is an example of healthy metagame adaptation with Kyurem, weather, and Enamorus, etc. being solid. However, it is just one Pokemon and the pool of others that can reliably find their way in-and-out is not numerous enough. Let's go through that pool of Pokemon.

Weavile seems like a good check in the flow of some games, but Draco has become more common and it does 86 minimum, meaning it always kills Weavile after it takes Rocky Helmet or any further chip (like a Freeze Dry or Earth Power prior). I do not view this as a check, especially when you consider Specs and DD sets can terrorize it. I view it as a piece of a multi-Pokemon core that can contain Kyurem, but I think the strain you see Kyurem placing on dictating these team structures is greater than the strain any other Pokemon in the tier puts on building aside from Archaludon and maybe Raging Bolt (the former I believe should be banned and the latter is very good as well).

Volcarona is a nice addition to a core of Pokemon that can check Kyurem, handling the standard boots set well. DD Kyurem and Specs Draco Meteor can spell doom, but I would say it is at least a soft check and balance/bulky-offensive teams with it and enough pressure/contingencies tend to be safe. I still do not slap Volcarona on and just say I am ok outright, which is concerning, but it deserves a seat at the table here at the very least.

Then you have some soft-measures like SDef Toxapex trading Toxic for damage it can Regenerate off, but this requires finding a safe switch in on an Ice Beam or Draco Meteor and Kyurem not to be Substitute. Kingambit or Gholdengo can switch in earlier on and force a KO on it if they exhaust Tera or stay near full to avoid being in Earth Power range, but these Pokemon exhausting Tera is a huge resource and I do not think either are true checks so much as they are gameflow pieces to ultimately containing Kyurem. Beyond this, SDef Clefable, Blissey, Scizor, and perhaps a few others warrant discussion, but nothing overly common.

The defensive pool of checks is too small, only becoming larger when you include highly circumstantial Pokemon. While Slowking-G is a great Pokemon, I personally believe that the threshold for something being balanced requires a greater amount of total counterplay than what we see here.

I also want to touch on the "Kyurem is very hard for Rain to switch into, so we should save Kyurem to "balance" Rain" argument -- this is not something I will ever subscribe to. This suspect's point is to determine if Kyurem is broken in SV OU or not; it has nothing to do with how Kyurem may or may not balance Rain (or Rain Pokemon like Archaludon). If that is an issue, it will be dealt with separately. If it is not, it will not be dealt with. Of course, if you think Kyurem is balanced, then you should absolutely lean towards no ban and I think that's plenty valid. Some people have made good arguments on this front. But trying to force us into broken-checks-broken because of the Rain dynamic is not it.

Vote will go up later tonight