Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[ant4456]

The argument about metagame impacts are funny, because you don't even need to reply: "We can just ban the Ghosts later!"

Guess what, in Gen 8 OU, you didn't run a fucking Dark-Type on every goddamn team. Weavile was common as a Pokemon that could take (two) Shadow Balls and get offensive pressure, but that isn't really the same thing as Kingambit which is a dedicated offensive Pokemon that can take both Dragapult/Gholdengo STABS. In SPL XIII, Weavile was third in usage in several weeks, but the next Dark-Type was around 20th place on average, Tyranitar, which also has the SpDef boost for Draco Meteor.

Looking at later stats (October 2022 1695+ Ladder), Weavile has an 18.56% usage, and the next Dark-Type is Tyranitar at 9.87% of teams.

This is because you could already normally fit several Pokemon on a team that naturally checked Dragapult with not much issue, save for SpDef drops. Not even just Clefable or whatever, Pokemon we have right now. This also isn't "oh use a Blissey", that was at 28th usage with 6% usage. Dragapult has a base 100 Special Attack and even with a Specs boost, its power is mostly in its speed. If it was even 350 Speed, it would be mediocre. It's an offensive Pokemon that mostly helps bulkier teams check offense as they scramble to find answers to not lose a Pokemon to it, while Bulky teams can often pivot around it at least a few times a game, without really sacrificing more optimal solutions. Of course, offensive teams use Dragapult too, it's a great Pokemon, but I've heard claims that Dragapult / Gholdengo bother bulkier teams as much if not more than Kingambit, and that's a funny idea.

Let's look at how we checked Dragapult before.

SpDef Lando-T was a good pivot for a few Shadow Balls, but it was also run as a pivot that checked Tapu Koko, so you were probably going to run SpDef anyways. Heatran has had SpDef investment for a few gens, long before Dragapult existed.

SpDef Corviknight has never been bad and is a good check to Tapu Lele before it decides to run Thunderbolt or some shit, which you live one at least, and it checks other Fairies. This would especially be good now because only Choice Specs Enamorus 2HKOs with Mystical Fire, and it can check most Iron Valiant sets.

Weavile can take a Shadow Ball and click SD knowing it lives one more from Specs, and get a lot of progress. It gets blown back by Draco Meteor, but that's easier to check, this was great on offensive teams and bulky offensive teams alike.

Clefable is not in Gen 9, though it will be, but a SpDef set was used in most metas (but not most later ones in Crown Tundra IIRC) that could take Shadow Ball and recover on it, and it wasn't even weak to hazards or status, making this fairly consistent.

Tapu Fini is not in Gen 9 so this is less relevant, but even with little investment you can take two Shadow Balls and switch in.

So basically, Dragapult is a Pokemon that gets a lot of progress but can be walled at least a few times throughout the game, and even give the opponent an opportunity to make progress back. It's a great offensive Pokemon, but it doesn't spam Shadow Ball Turn 1-5 and just instantly get to its endgame, in this meta or in SWSH. The opponent has time to make sure that they do not lose to Dragapult with many tools, and that is increased by Dragapult's low bulk, any single super-effective hit kills it pretty much.

Now, back to Gen 9. We have been given ungodly Defensive Pokemon that are already able to be run that check Dragapult and Gholdengo.

-For one, the Amoongus set that is already run can take Shadow Balls fairly easily and even a Draco Meteor, as well as Gholdengo Make It Rain and Regenerator off to live another day.

-Heatran as a SpDef Pokemon is already a good set that checks these two fairly well and can be given support by other members to lighten the load/increase longevity.

-We are seeing Assault Vest sets on Hoopa-Unbound whose biggest threat is U-Turn,

-the already good Moltres SpDef set takes at best this from Draco Meteor
252 SpA Choice Specs Dragapult Draco Meteor vs. 248 HP / 248+ SpD Moltres: 213-252 (55.6 - 65.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

-Samurott-Hisui is a Shadow Ball switch-in already on HO that can feasibly run Assault Vest that just is sacked Turn 2 by a lot of players, you can just wake up tomorrow and choose not to do that, which isn't even necessarily sub-optimal, and be a good answer at least once to especially Gholdengo, but also Dragapult. Draco Meteor does a million, but it takes Shadow Balls well and already can get free Spikes back.

-Ting-Lu is already incredible and only doesn't like repeated Draco Meteors without Rest, or with Spikes up, even with no SpDef investment, at all. Still, almost certainly should bring some, unless you want to lose a lot of momentum.

-Toxapex is rare but also a thing, and its standard Recover set is also a thing, you can use it and it will do the job of checking these two Pokemon.

-Clodsire
Must I say more

If anything, Gen 9 has more ways to stop Dragapult than Gen 8 already, and Gholdengo is mostly checked alongside Dragapult too. And it didn't even take several moveslots, making sure most of your team is faster than one Pokemon, packing three plus Pokemon to hard check them;

Of course, there is Tera. But guess what, that's basically every Tera abuser in the tier, including Kingambit. And even a Tera Ghost Choice Specs Dragapult is not denting things like Ting-Lu. I mean shit, lets give it +2 Modest on top of Specs just for fun

+2 252+ SpA Choice Specs Tera Ghost Dragapult Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 0+ SpD Vessel of Ruin Ting-Lu: 197-232 (38.3 - 45.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

You do more to check Kingambit on the average team. Gholdengo follows suit almost naturally with most sets, except just making sure you don't lose to Nasty Plot, which also unlike Dragapult is not that fast. We've also dealt with this set before when it was Nasty Plot Covert Cloak being spammed from the First Coming of Garganacl on the ladder and in tournament.

Scarf Trick could be a problem but it's more than feasible to deal with.

What I'm saying is, are you really not able to deal with Dragapult in a post-Kingambit metagame? Really? You can, you just don't want to, and that's silly.

 

[Delibird Heart]

if you really hate Kingambit so much, run some shitmons

So called free thinkers when you mention using any mon outside the top 10... A lot of these so called "shitmons" can do a really good job overall and have proven themselves (ches and quaq at the very least, with tauros forms also being good and having been used in high ladder before). Also, I was mostly just pointing out underexplored answers (I'm not asking you to run feather dance quaquaval or Lucario on every team, just saying it's a possibility if you have a big weakness to patch for example) for the sake of showing that there's more room to play around gambit in the builder than people seem to think, but I listed 5-6 good known checks as well. If you're gonna respond to my post do it in good faith.

this single mon in the metagame requires several moveset changes, EV spread changes, and several major checks in the builder on any team

Almost every team rn runs the mon so having multiple checks on one team is never a bad idea, especially when you have to account for different possible sets. However that doesn't mean the mon is broken, just very popular. In gen 8 any good team had to have 1-2 kart checks but you didn't see people call for a kart ban. If a mon has to be played around, it just means that mon is good at doing its job. Are you going to argue that every mon that puts some pressure on the builder is broken ?

Completely agree with what you said about pult and dengo though. You can check them without needing to be a defensive dark type... which is also something that happens to exist this gen anyways (Ting-Lu!!!), so lol to that.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Iron Hands: 524-618 (102.3 - 120.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. +1 252 HP / 252+ Def Quaquaval: 392-464 (104.8 - 124%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Tera can be used to beat checks/counters, but that seems more like a tera problem than a gambit problem. Don't forget that you can have your own tera to counteract gambit's tera, or that forcing him into fairy opens up other forms of counterplay. Besides this shows an already set up gambit which has a tera type that happens to match up well against the answers you picked from my post. That won't always be the case. If you play well around gambit, it won't get an opportunity to set up freely (without taking some damage or status). Granted, that's not always possible to do, but then maybe your opponent just played better than you and positioned their gambit well.

 

[ant4456]

So called free thinkers when you mention using any mon outside the top 10... A lot of these so called "shitmons" can do a really good job overall and have proven themselves (ches and quaq at the very least, with tauros forms also being good and having been used in high ladder before). Also, I was mostly just pointing out underexplored answers (I'm not asking you to run feather dance quaquaval or Lucario on every team, just saying it's a possibility if you have a big weakness to patch for example) for the sake of showing that there's more room to play around gambit in the builder than people seem to think, but I listed 5-6 good known checks as well. If you're gonna respond to my post do it in good faith.



Almost every team rn runs the mon so having multiple checks on one team is never a bad idea, especially when you have to account for different possible sets. However that doesn't mean the mon is broken, just very popular. In gen 8 any good team had to have 1-2 kart checks but you didn't see people call for a kart ban. If a mon has to be played around, it just means that mon is good at doing its job. Are you going to argue that every mon that puts some pressure on the builder is broken ?

Completely agree with what you said about pult and dengo though. You can check them without needing to be a defensive dark type... which is also something that happens to exist this gen anyways (Ting-Lu!!!), so lol to that.



Tera can be used to beat checks/counters, but that seems more like a tera problem than a gambit problem. Don't forget that you can have your own tera to counteract gambit's tera, or that forcing him into fairy opens up other forms of counterplay. Besides this shows an already set up gambit which has a tera type that happens to match up well against the answers you picked from my post. That won't always be the case. If you play well around gambit, it won't get an opportunity to set up freely (without taking some damage or status). Granted, that's not always possible to do, but then maybe your opponent just played better than you and positioned their gambit well.

the point was that you have to run otherwise unoptimal things in order to check kingambit even harder unlike other Pokemon, because, like idk maybe a broken Pokemon, you have to make a lot of sacrifices to check one single pokemon

not because you can if you want, but you have to, otherwise kingambit can and will roll you. This is unlike other Pokemon which may have several Pokemon with answers to it on a team, that may even choose to do so because the player wants to / can afford it, or because this specific teamstyle gives a Pokemon an entry.

Kingambit requires several major checks on any team. Period. Required, not wanted, not optional. Not some, all, otherwise you risk your team having a good chance to lose 20 turns in to any Kingambit team, aka most of them.

Unlike what you replied to the other person, no, Kingambit is not a skillful Pokemon. It is not hard to position it to get free turns, especially with Tera. And Tera is the main problem, but this is not a Tera suspect test.

Chesnaught and Quaqavel are niche at best and also can still lose to Kingambit.

Kartana was also still seen as overbearing to some people, even on top of the fact that it isn't that hard to check, it's just a really good breaker.

In fact I can never actually recall changing a Pokemon due to needing a Kartana check, as a Pokemon like PhysDef Corviknight already did the job, and I already wanted to run it. If it's Band just Roost it off until it switches or you U-Turn, SD and you live and just U-Turn into a threat which punishes it (No priority!) and you can beat it down with Body Press solo based on move it locks into.

There is a difference between some pressure and literally forcing two or more, often more major checks to a Pokemon on a team. Again, I've seen 3 literally lose in high-level tournament matches, even relatively healthy going into the endgame. That is not okay. That is not acceptable pressure in the builder or in the game, and makes it so that sometimes, the better player loses because Kingambit can just win.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Solid A+ mon pushed into S++ range at times thanks to Tera
Supreme Overlord broken af ability
SV Gambit Late Game™ exchanges define the meta

In a perfect world suspects happen in a vacuum, but no one can stop anyone from voting DNB because they don't want the tier to fall apart.
Specs/Band Pult and Gold instantly get 10x better, which will begin a cascade of issues.
I agree this should not be a factor in voting, though.

That said, if Gambit goes, then we lose more mons forsure.

Gambit has at least 5 solid checks, which is a lot right now for a S-Tier mon in SV.
Zama, Tusk, Val, Lando, Don all handle it cleanly

Gambit is absolutely pushed over the edge by tera.
It would still be an A+ mon but not broken.

Let's steel-man your argument and say fallen 5 and the Gambit found a free turn to SD, and somehow at max HP.

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Great Tusk: 153-180 (41.2 - 48.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 105-124 (36.3 - 42.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 225-265 (58.9 - 69.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Kingambit: 254-300 (74.4 - 87.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
You kill after RH chip

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 153-181 (30.3 - 35.9%) -- 42.7% chance to 3HKO
Body press kills

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 105-125 (27 - 32.2%) -- 51.6% chance to 4HKO after Leftovers recovery

Again, this is best case scenario for the Gambit, and that's 6 mons that can revenge it at +2

This isn't counting soft checks, priority, sub, encore, status and overall sucker mind games.

It's fine if Tera pushes it over the edge bro, it pushes a lot of mons that would otherwise be solid, top tier, into wildly stupid S+ tier.

I honestly think Tera, if used correctly, can make a mon jump up one, or even two ranks, as in C to A.
So what it does to A and S tier mons is just a part of Tera meta.

Whenever you bring that up, ppl either want to ban the mon, or give the same pro-tera talking points that boil down to "l2p, defensive tera, but they wasted their tera, you should have known" etc. into ad nauseum.

Moving on, I don't really know how you can honestly say "not its synergy with defensive terastalization, not its power with tera-Dark".

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Dondozo: 248-292 (49.2 - 57.9%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO

It turns a 3hko on the best phys wall in the game into a clean 2hko.

Remember how Def Lando wins the 1v1?

+1 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 248+ Def Landorus-Therian: 360-424 (94.2 - 110.9%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

Not anymore.

and do we really need me to start pulling up numbers for Tera sets?

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera Fairy Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Great Tusk: 458-540 (105.5 - 124.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252 Atk Great Tusk Headlong Rush vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 169-199 (49.5 - 58.3%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO

Gambit also cheeses wins and causes the worst end game meta I've ever seen.
Fallen 5 +2 Sucker Punch OHKO's about 80% of the meta easily, maybe 90% if you Tera Dark + Black Glasses.

I'm not sure what to do with this mon, most likely DNB.

This is just an amusing impasse we've reached as a community.
No one cared when Leki, Volc, Espa were pushed out, Volc and Espa were annoying and Leki is broken with TB.
To a lot of ppl, those mons are worth the sacrifice to keep Tera, or at least Tera Blast.
But now we're at a mon that is absolutely broken with Tera, but we risk the tier falling apart.
If Gambit goes, I predict so does Pult, then Gold, maybe Val- then who knows, Nite?

For me its, "Do we want to keep this terribly over-centralizing presence that defines the endgame meta but holds the tier together?"
Again, fully aware we're not supposed to consider this, but we do have to think about the precedent it would set.
If we start banning mons that are broken due to Tera, then that's a long ass road to start walking down.
Tera creates a wild west, semi-broken state of play, and I'm down with a meta like that if we must keep Tera, but that comes with mons like Gambit- who is only technically broken some of the time, but not always.

EDIT: Nevermind, first 2 battles in 1900elo ladder today were Rain cringe into Sun cringe and I didn't have my trusty Gambit. DNB for my broken boy

EDIT #2: Nvm, I decided I want to watch this tier burn. Let's ban Gambit! Then 4 more mons, then a few more :)

 

[Deathbringer7]

Personally , I am not satisfied with three DNB arguments in particular. The first being that you can stall out Sucker Punches. In the late game , that just involves a series of coinflips that Gambit is overwhelming favoured to win, as it's so strong that at +2 atk +4/+5 SO it just one shots even neutral bulky pokemon and frail resists with the smallest amount of chip that isn't hard to provide seeing how strong hazards are, which means that it really needs to win a single coin flip with Sucker to kill what's in front of it, whereas the opponent needs to win several to attempt to stall out Suckers (whilst risking getting Kowtowed). The second reason is the lefties recovery it's getting despite failing Suckers, which means that unless oppo has an OHKO move it can quickly heal out of KO range, meaning you have to win the reads in a finite amount of time. Sub can help turn the tables on Gambit, but again, you only have a finite amount of HP to manufacture subs and it's still healing with lefties, which means the rock paper scissors esque counterplay in this regard persists. Frankly the uninteractive guesswork orientated endgames this mon creates is another point in the favour of banning. It's just uncompetitive.


The second argument I want to talk about is baiting it's Tera. Baiting it into Tera mid game and then abusing its new defensive typing is ok on paper but in practice it's rarely pressured to burn Tera in the midgame thanks to it's incredible bulk, allowing good gambit users to preserve Tera for the late game sweep it can pull off effortless. No Gambit is going to Tera Fire in front of an Ace to SD when there is a healthy enam and tusk on the other side. They're going to wait till tusk has taken chip attempting to spin and ace has been chipped after switching onto say a Ghold make it rain. And that one use of Tera is all it needs to finish the game, allowing it just that one SD that's enough to kill the remainder of the opponents team. Trying to put pressure on it to deny SD isn't feasible either since it's so bulky it can easily shrug off a neutral hit and get it up anyway.


The third is the strange "it's holding the tier" together argument. If "holding the tier" is meant by centralizing the metagame and forcing teams to run multiple Gambit checks to not lose to the myriad of Tera types and item choices, while it itself boxes out many other Dark types in the meta, then I agree with you. This statement also shows just a lack of faith in the meta's capability to adapt to Ghost offense, we have plenty of answers from Ting, Garg, Hamu, SpDef Tran, SpDef Lando, SpDef Corv, Clod etc that can perfectly take on ghost offense, we've just been spoiled that we've had Kingambit all this time to switch into Pult Shadow Ball while simultaneously acting as a wincon that needs not much team support. The answers for Pult have been in the meta for a while, we've just not explored them enough. Gambit leaving will not be a negative presence on the tier.

 

[Magcargo]

I likely won't be voting, but is Kingambit even that good at limiting the Ghost? Most games, I end up using Dragapult and Gholdengo to check it late game since Will-O-Wisp on Pult and Trick on Gholdengo are two of the best tools to preventing an endgame sweep.

 

[Deathbringer7]

Gambit has at least 5 solid checks, which is a lot right now for a S-Tier mon in SV.
Zama, Tusk, Val, Lando, Don all handle it cleanly


Gambit also cheeses wins and causes the worst end game meta I've ever seen.
Fallen 5 +2 Sucker Punch OHKO's about 80% of the meta easily, maybe 90% if you Tera Dark + Black Glasses.

I'm not sure what to do with this mon, most likely DNB.

This is just an amusing impasse we've reached as a community.
No one cared when Leki, Volc, Espa were pushed out, Volc and Espa were annoying and Leki is broken with TB.
To a lot of ppl, those mons are worth the sacrifice to keep Tera, or at least Tera Blast.
But now we're at a mon that is absolutely broken with Tera, but we risk the tier falling apart.
If Gambit goes, I predict so does Pult, then Gold, maybe Val- then who knows, Nite.

Zama loses to Tera Flying, ID+BP gets outboosted by SDs. Tusk is a decent check, but it gets worn down easily attempting to spin and defensive doesn't even run a fighting move (if it's not BU+Press, which isn't the typical defensive tusk) which means Gambit doesn't even necessarily need to Tera immediately to beat it , and it gets cooked by Tera Flying and Tera Fairy. Val needs to run CC or risk coming in on a failed Sucker to Encore to beat it, so it's far from ironclad against it. Lando is very prone to rocks chip as it's running more Rocky Helm nowadays, so it being healthy enough to check a late game Gambit is doubtful, especially if you factor in Tera. Don can get overwhelmed by stacking strong phys attackers (eg: Bax + Gambit can bust past Dozo,especially if Bax is CB) and Dozo loses to Tera Dark Black Glasses.

Also this isn't really a discussion regarding the impact of Tera, and we can't say to a certainty that it would leave to a cascade of bans people are theorizing, we can't let an unhealthy presence stay in the tier. Magearna had immense positive attributes for the tier but it had to be banned cause of Shift Gear Stored Power which made it unequivocally broken. (Now Gambit isn't to that extent of broken, although some parallels in them sweeping teams with ease with mininal team support thanks to Tera and general insane defensive profiles).

 

[Deathbringer7]

I likely won't be voting, but is Kingambit even that good at limiting the Ghost? Most games, I end up using Dragapult and Gholdengo to check it late game since Will-O-Wisp on Pult and Trick on Gholdengo are two of the best tools to preventing an endgame sweep.

It's one of the best options we have for sure. Ofc both of the ghosts are themselves flexible, tough to prep for threats in their own right (although I reiterate that counterplay to the ghosts is present) . Imo Wisp Pult and Scarf Ghold can both be scouted with relative ease, however admittedly they do annoy Gambit a bit (provided ofc Gambit isn't Lum or Tera Fire, Pult is getting cooked if that's the case, personally I just like the straightforward Tera Fighting and kill it option, but ofc that can be flubbed if Gambit is already boosted up with enough SO boosts.)

 

[carbonlifeform]

Tera can be used to beat checks/counters, but that seems more like a tera problem than a gambit problem

Except we have Tera, and we can't count on a future suspect to fix the problem we have right now. And the problem with Gambit isn't even Blind Tera, it's Tera in general because *any* Tera Type lets it remove its biggest balancing factor: its 4x weakness to Fighting. Gambit is bulky enough to eat pretty much any one SE hit, which is often times all it needs in order to get that one extra SD to shrug off a burn or to nab a 2HKO on the one `mon on your team it can't OHKO at +2 with a couple of Supreme Overlord boosts and some chip.

Don't forget that you can have your own tera to counteract gambit's tera, or that forcing him into fairy opens up other forms of counterplay. Besides this shows an already set up gambit which has a tera type that happens to match up well against the answers you picked from my post.

The only way to reliably KO a Gambit that has been well-preserved is with SE hits, while Gambit has enough raw power that it only needs to hit you neutrally (or for you to be frail enough to fold to boosted resisted hits), so "defensive tera" isn't really a thing against it (also, Gambit forces enough things out that it's not terribly difficult to get up a single SD).

As the Premier Iron Hands Stan™ of Smogon, let me use Hands as an example, since it *should* be a perfect counter to Gambit with its massive bulk, resistance to Gambit's STABs, and ability to hit it SE with power. All Gambit needs to do to beat any semi-standard Iron Hands set with *any tera type* is SD on the Switch and run Low Kick:

116+ Atk Iron Hands Wild Charge vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Flying Kingambit: 266-314 (72 - 85%)
116+ Atk Iron Hands Drain Punch vs. 112 HP / 0 Def Tera Dark Kingambit: 222-264 (60.1 - 71.5%)

That's not even accounting for Tera Types with a good neutral profile, like Fairy (my "favorite" at the moment). Meanwhile:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 359-423 (79.9 - 94.2%)
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 156-185 (34.7 - 41.2%)

Let's say Iron Hands adapts to Low Kick Gambit and starts running Tera Fairy to resist Dark and Fighting? Kingambit could obviously switch back to running Iron Head or replace Kowtow with Iron Head, but it doesn't even really need to because:

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Iron Hands: 191-225 (42.5 - 50.1%)

All you need is speed creep and some chip (or Tera Dark) to 2HKO. OR, you can just opt for a good neutral Tera Blast:
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Tera [Anything] Kingambit Tera Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Iron Hands: 358-423 (79.7 - 94.2%)

Similarly to Volcarona, no traditional offensive/defensive check against Gambit can stand the test of time because its kit lets it out-adapt anything that wants to handle it that way. So that brings us to other forms of counter-play.

Lots of talk about Wisp, but Gambit only kinda cares about that because SO is a multiplier boost, not a stage boost. It's pretty easy to click SD into an expected Wisp. At +4 with 3 allies fainted, that still leaves you (essentially) as strong as a standard burned `mon at +6.

+4 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord burned 3 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 224 HP / 0 Def Cinderace: 318-375 (89 - 105%)

Encore is probably the best answer. It's generally super useful in this meta and helps against Gambit both mid and end-game -- either forcing it to switch out (lose its boosts, take chip on the way back in, yada yada yada) or buying you room to whittle it down by sticking it in a SD Loop, wasting Sucker Punch PP, or making it hit you NVE. But you've still got to get your Encore `mon in. That means having, say, Valiant on preview can be enough to dissuade Gambit from clicking SD, but it also means Gambit can serve to lure your Valiant in early and double switch into something else that handles Valiant.

TL;DR: Gambit Stronk. Tera Gambit too stronk. Run encore?

 

[Hugin]

The real problem IMO is the combo of Bulk+Priority when combined with Tera. Obviously the raw power of KG matters a lot, don't get me wrong, but if you want to run 1 KG check/counter, then the best you can do is guarantee a neutral hit. Into 100/120/85 defenses. And you have to eat a Sucker Punch to do it. That's a lot of hoops to jump through before you can kill, especially since KG tends to come in lategame at full health. If priority were a reliable option, then sure, but it's regularly immune or resistant to Fighting, Normal, Ice, Rock, and Dark.

Tera's the problem, but until that's fixed, Ban Kingambit.

 

[2weed]

I'll be voting ban if i get reqs purely because i'm tired of having to psychoanalyse my opponent to find their freudian instincts every single game. I'm tired of sucker punch 50/50s and I'm tired of having to predict if the gambit is tera flying or fairy or ghost or something funky like fire. You can write essays about the value it provides as a defensive mon or how it has checks or whatever but i'll just be voting on if the mon is fun or not. Having to outplay sucker punch every once in a while is fun, having to do it every single game is not.

 

[dwell]

Reverse sweeping, Causes games to devolve into 50/50, Enough bulk to live a hit, Tera making Ground moves neutral damage/Fighting resist immunity and dealing with Fighting types, Supreme Overlord, Cheap, Good typing, Forces you to run something to deal with it on your team so you aren't getting reverse swept every time, You get one Swords Dance and most pokemon get OHKO'd or 2 hit KO'd by Sucker Punch or Iron Head, It is way too consistent to NOT be good.

BAN Kingambit.

 

[VannAccessible]

My opinion is that while Kingsgambit is very centralizing, it is also very telegraphed, has plenty of checks and is not broken.

The issues people have with it are solely due to Tera, but even then still more manageable than Volcorona was.

 

[Solar Power]

My opinion is that while Kingsgambit is very centralizing, it is also very telegraphed, has plenty of checks and is not broken.

The issues people have with it are solely due to Tera, but even then still more manageable than Volcorona was.

Considering (1) Tera will certainly not be restricted or altered in any way before the end of the Gambit suspect and (2) the entire Tera thread includes pages and pages of discussion about how Gambit is the most prominent Tera abuser, I don't see any value in hiding behind "the issues people have with it are solely due to Tera".

We're assessing whether or not Gambit is broken in a meta with Tera.

 

[June Heat]

My opinion is that while Kingsgambit is very centralizing, it is also very telegraphed, has plenty of checks and is not broken.

The issues people have with it are solely due to Tera, but even then still more manageable than Volcorona was.

Yeah, but this is a Kingambit suspect test not a Tera suspect. You can't just remove Tera from Kingambit when it's allowed in the meta. Kingambit being able to Tera IS PART of the mons kit, and you have to judge it with that in mind. The Ban Gambit crowd know Gambit would be fine without Tera, but Tera is allowed. Doesn't matter if Kingambit is predictable it's just that strong, and we believe Tera pushes it over the edge.

 

[Eeveeto]

With how busy (traveling) I will be these 2 weeks, its pretty unlikely I will get the reqs. I will still post briefly my opinions:

-This Meta is way too much offensive and hazard centered, preparing for every threat is extremely hard without becoming too passive. Some Suspects were needed, but this is not the Suspect I wanted.
-There are at least 6 Mons I consider to warrant a Ban more than Kingambit: Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Gholdengo, Enamorus, Garganacl and Hisuian Samurott.
-Kingambit is extremely strong late game, triggering many mind games with Sucker Punch and all the possible (Dark, Fire, Water, Fairy, Flying and Ghost at least, but pretty sure Steel, Bug, Fight, Poison, Electric, Grass, Dragon and Ground can be viable in some teams) Tera types.
-But that's the thing: in late game. The 6 Mons that I mentioned to be more ban-worthy than Kingambit, they are all dangerous from the very beginning of the game to the end. Kingambit is a mediocre Mon in early game and becomes more dangerous as the game progresses.
-Iron Valiant has a trillion different sets and Tera types, there is not a single Mon that can reliably check all of them. Until it reveals information, this is the single most dangerous Mon in the Meta, only somewhat limited by the frailty.
-Baxcalibur with Band alone 2HKOs everything except some Corviknight, Orthworm and Dondozo. This is just Band, but he also can 6-0 with multiple variations of SD and DD sets, with also 4 or 5 different Tera types to abuse.
-Gholdengo makes Hazard centered teams too good and forces to run Boots on multiple Mons instead of a more useful item. By itself its just a strong (and quite versatile too) Mon, but it does make the meta more unhealthy. Without Gholdengo, Corviknight (the most viable Defogger), would easily come into Ting-Lu or Glimmora to Defog away the hazards, forcing those Mons/styles to adapt (by being fast with Taunt, having Tera Blast or using some Defiant/Competitive Mons).
-Enamorus has the dreaded Fairy/Ground coverage, unlike Valiant (who would have to use Tera Ground... which probably isn,t even a bad idea, but why would you if Enamorus exists?), having very few reliable checks (Moltres, Clodsire, Sdef Corv and a few more). Its less versatile and slower than Valiant, but still extremely dangerous and hard to prepare for.
-Everyone knows what Garganacl does. Out of this list, he is the easiest one to prepare for, but doing so often means you are worse vs the rest of the meta.
- Lastly, Hisuian Samurott hits hard and lays Hazards. Despite using the same move always, he still manages to be versatile with Scarf, Sash, SD, Mixed, LO or even Band. Its the (almost) perfect lead forcing progress in almost every battle. It has the weakest case for a Ban, but I still consider it to be a better candidate than Kingambit.
-Compared to the above Mons, Kingambit lacks versatility. Kingambit always uses SD and a combination of Kowtow Cleave, Iron Head, Sucker Punch and Low Kick, very rarely dropping 2 of them for Tera Blast. Except for the Tera type, Kingambit is predictable, you always know how he will try to sweep you and can act in advance.
-Kingambit, while being one of the best abussers, due to being mediocre in early game, often forces the rest of the team without Tera, in order to try a Kingambit sweep late game. At the same time, a good opponent will be treating his Kingambit checks carefully, in advance for such scenario.
-Kingambit is slow. Sucker Punch helps, but mind games not always favour Kingambit. Things like Encore exist, status moves and Substitute exist, opponent often will have time to do something before the Sword Dance.
-So, its understandable I am not happy with the Mon that was choosen to be Suspected.

-However, despite that, if I somehow get the reqs, I would still vote Ban.
-Kingambit is extremely bulky for an offensive Mon, he almost always will get the SD done, with clever Tera he might get even 2 of them.
-Kingambit rewards bad plays. Well, more than rewards, doesn,t punish. You can play terribly and lose most of your team but that makes Kingambit strong.
-(Sorry for bringing and example from 3 Gens ago, but...) In XY/ORAS Aegislash was banned mostly for the 50/50 it triggered with Kings Shield vs contact physical Mons. The situation with Kingambit is different, but similar. There will often be scenarios in which there will be more or less 50% of win depending if Gambit uses Sucker Punch or another offensive move. This is made worse if we take into account the unrevealed Tera, what should I do, Headlong Rush non Tera Gambit or Ice Spinner predicting Tera Flying?
-As I said several times, I want to preserve Tera, but that means some of the best abussers of the mechanic have to go, Kingambit is one of them.
-Main argument for Ban though: its one less threat to prepare for. If Kingambit is gone, we can dedicate more slots for Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Enamorus, etc.
-So, in the end, this is not the Suspected Mon I personally wanted, but its still one whose Ban will move the Meta in (what I think is) the right direction.

 

[Eelstartega]

Kingambit is just so easy to check and you lose because you're bad.

In all seriousness though, Kingambit is kinda OP. Let's see why by understanding what this mon is.

Kingambit is a bulky wallbreaker with good special bulk, great attack and physical bulk and very low speed. Type-wise, the king is also great, with 9 resistances, 2 immunities and 3 weaknesses; heck, the fact Bisharp has been OU-Viable for 3 gens despite its mediocre stats for OU standards once it gained knock off and defiant became relevant should be a proof of how solid the combo is.

Now, what what are Kingambit's weaknesses? There's 2, it's meager 50 speed and its x4 weakness to fighting... in theory.

In practice, I have to ask you this: what does counter a Kingambit? Because I'm going to be honest, I'm not seeing anything, because counter means being able to deal with a +2 Kingambit at full health and being able to switch into one of its attack.

• Great tusk: Loses to Tera flying/fairy and 2 +2 Iron heads. I would say it's more of a check though, and even then only the Ice spinner variants with bulk up.
• Iron Valiant: Hates metal despite being from the future. Can be annoying with encore but in general Kingambit wins if both burn tera.
• Ting-Lu: Same as Great Tusk, but also risks Iron head flinches and Kingambit survives a Body press, so it isn't even a check, more like Kingambit checks Ting-Lu more often than not but risks earthquakes on the switch.
• Gholdengo: Oddly enough it's a volatile matchup due to focus blast. If it doesn't have it it's an easy KO, if it does it becomes a mind game where you have to be incredibly careful to play around, and so does the opposing gholdengo. It goes from you hard countering it to the cheese checking you, so I'll give it a middle score of soft check.
• Zapdos: 90% of the time you lose to a +2 Kowtow Cleave. Might get an obnoxious paralysis though which can easily make the matchup winnable.
• Hisuan-Samurott: Now we're talking about something due to sacred sword and having a resistance to the STAB combo. Sadly said answer can lose to low kick + sucker punch or 2+ overlord low kick, so is only a check.
• Sneasler: Iron head + Sucker Punch is a guaranteed OHKO. Heck, even Iron head alone is enough with 4 allies fainted.
• Zamazenta-Hero: It actually could the 1v1 vs Tera Flying/Fairy if it gets critted. No wonder why the doggo is still in OU, although it still qualifies as a check due to Iron defense.
• Cinderace: This bunny is literally getting OHKOd by a black glasses Kowtow Cleave after 3 allies fainted, not to mention Kingambit is so bulky it can survive a Pyro Ball without Tera.
• Heatran: It gets OHKOd by low kick after 2-4 allies fainted depending on the set. The sheer damage output of Magma storm on the special side and being faster is great, but not a check to the multitude of rolls in the process.
• Dondozo: With enough allies fainted Kingambit can outdamage rest recovery because Kingambit is faster, and with tera fairy/flying it can avoid serious damage from dondozo's body press. In the early game Dondozo does check Kingambit though.
• Landorus-T: Same story as with Great Tusk, except a bit worse due to not having fighting moves and therefore not being a reliable check.
• Ursaluna: This is the definition of a 50/50. One gets OHKOd by Low Kick + sucker punch, the other gets destroyed by Headlong rush, meaning it's unclear who checks who due to both having 50 speed.
• Volcanion: It gets OHKOd by +2 sucker punch after 2 allies fainted, or to Kowtow Kleave + Sucker punch on the switch. Still a check due to the sheer damage of modest STAB specs Fire blast and being able to survive an unboosted hit of Kingambit. Might be worth going for bulky Volcanion because it's as close to a counter I think we'll get.
• Corviknight: Iron defense + Body press is promising but it fails to switch into safely or to be threatening fast enough. Is even and any defog set is winning Kingambit.
• Cresselia: While most sets are easily defeatable by Kingambit, there's one who could reverse the course: TERA FIGHTING... which fails to OHKO Kingambit after a +2, while Iron head is still a clean 2HKO. If tera gets restricted this move will become even more favorable for Kingambit btw.
• Hoopa-Unbound: It dies to an unboosted sucker punch after 3 allies died with black glasses. Even the bulkier sets fail to OHKO Kingambit with drain punch.
• Azumarill: Another 50/50 due to both being able to 2HKO the opponent and being a speed tie. They're kinda similar but Kingambit is bulkier and has swords dance, who in this case does not make a difference.
• Skeledirge: Another pokémon who looks promising. It outspeeds Kingambit, it can threaten it with a burn, it's so bulky it can survive 2 Kowtow cleaves if removed its weakness to ghost, it ignores Swords dances, has recovery and can threaten Skeledirge with either ghost or fire. There's one problem though: It's a ghost, therefore vulnerable to Kowtow cleave before tera. By definition is only a check because you need to enter into the field as tera water.
• Iron Moth: See Hoopa unbound above, replacing Sucker Punch with Kowtow Cleave/Sucker punch after 2 layers of spikes, and Drain punch with Fiery dance. That being said, Iron moth is a closer to a check than Hoopa, but stops being one once it took a layer of spikes and a x4 resisted U-turn.

Now we're entering the "pseudo-gimmick territory".

• Hydreigon: Almost always gets 2HKOd by Iron head and while it can 2HKO in return with Earth power, tera will put you outside any risk.
• Garchomp: It risks dying to a +2 black glasses sucker punch even without allies fainted, as well as Kowtow Cleave + Sucker punch, and it fails to OHKO kingambit consistently, even with tera ground. There's a reason Garchomp is no longer popular, although due to rocky helmet Garchomp might have a chance so is more of a favorable matchup, and even barely investing you could have a 2HKO.
• Lilligant: Similar to Sneasler, just slightly more difficult in the sense of now requiring spikes due to The flower girl having slightly more bulk. The access to physical quiver dance, sleep powder and ice spinner makes the matchup more even but still slightly in Kingambit's favor due to hustle.
• Sandy shocks: Similar to Garchomp oddly enough, it fails to OHKO With earth power and it dies to black glasses sucker punch.
• Basculegion: It gets destroyed by sucker punch. In case of tera water Kingambit still survives and can defeat the fish next turn.
• Arcanine-H: Gets destroyed by +2 sucker punch, is weak to rocks to the point of dying to sucker punch after some and even survives a head smash after tera Fairy. Another case of mostly equals.
• Greninja: It looks terrifying like Samurott, BUT nothing low kick + sucker punch can't deal with. Life orb is a double edge sword where the boost is amazing but it also makes it incredibly vulnerable to be weared down over time so it goes from an unreliable check to it being checked by Kingambit.
• Iron threads: Gets defeated by a +2 Kowtow Cleave, Low kick + Sucker punch, and treads fails to even guarantee a 2HKO in return. It gets worse if you go offensive. No wonder why people threat this pokémon as a laughing stock.
• Mew: Aura sphere fails to OHKO Kingambit, while Kowtow kleave does not fail to OHKO Mew.
• Torkoal: Too passive to be a check, just agressive enough to force a normal tera. In case of Tera fire you can even counter it and use it as setup fodder.

Going any deeper would be a waste of time. But those are what was expecting to be BEST CASE SCENARIOS.

Kingambit	can counter	Can hard check	can check	can soft check	Is neutral versus	Is Soft check'd by	Is check'd by	Is Hard check by	Countered is by	Total
	6	6	16	12	6/7	5	2	Not a thing	NOTHING	54​

In short, Kingambit is a pokémon who checks half of the tier, counters a sizable amount, is kinda checked by some Dondozo, Samurott, Skeledirge and Landorus sets, checked by Volcanion, Tusk and Zamazenta-Hero, and has nothing even resembling a counter.

Now, Seeing this list I have to wonder something:
What's the mon who would go out of control if Kingambit did not exist, making Kingambit essential for the tier?
The only thing who is close to an answer is Dragapult, and let's be real, there's other ways of handling Dragapult, most notably Enamorus-T, Moltres-G, Calm Mind cresselia, Alolan Muk or Meowscarada... picks that are very difficult to justify because of Kingambit. There's also the obnoxious Cresselia, but that set also has notable weakness like toxic, specs gholdengo, taunt heatran or specially defensive Skeledirge.

Kingambit is not essential for the tier. Great tusk is and proved itself as such by holding off Most Kingambit sets. Without the Mammoth it would have been just impossible to build remotely creative teams, but said tusk is easy to lure because it has bad special defense. Also, I've never mentioned tera blast when concluding it's uncounterable and said tera type was mostly mentioned flying/fairy as almost interchangeable. Also, there's not a single monotype who resists both dark and steel, so both tera preview and tera blast bans wouldn't be very relevant.

Conclussion: Unless you fully ban tera, Kingambit will be too much for OU. Considering how unlikely it is for the full ban of said mechanic in this year, I would propose a ban for Kingambit. For the best of OU, because I don't have enough time nor talent to reach the very top of OU, I wish you vote for ban as well.

PS: Some edits. Moved Dragapult and Enamorus-T up to hard check (Fire blast and earth power), Mew and Muk-Alola up to checks (You never know with Mew and Muk-Alola has access to drain punch), Corviknight and Iron Valiant up to Soft checks (Encore + swords dance can mess you up after the tera, and Iron defense body press is even against Kingambit), Landorus-T down to Neutral (Is very set-reliant. More defensive sets work better), Garchomp up to Soft-checking (Tankchomp with rocky helmet should win in a 1v1. That's your Garchomp niche post-home), Great Tusk and Zamazenta down to just soft-checking (Overlord and tera could flip the table, but is still favored for the fighting types) and Dondozo up as a check (Dondozo indeed should win the 1v1, specially if tera fighting). Still no hard check or counter, and only 2 fool-proof checks in Dondozo and Volcanion.

 

[Archer Kirby]

People really be overblowing Kingambit to the point where I just had to give my two cents.

Gonna start by saying, if your opponent saved Tera, and played a 5v6 to keep their Gambit at full health and both got you to use your Tera taking away any option/mindgames and weakened your team enough for Gambit to end you, I feel like that's at least partly on you for getting into that situation, and its not like other threats like Bax wouldn't be dangerous in that position either. Gambit also isn't something like Eleki where its just worth using Tera on only that because of the insane mileage it got, from my experience its not like they only save it for that.

Gambit does have a great typing, and it is bulky. 100/120/85 defences are very respectable especially since it can opt for more bulk over speed due to its being slow. resisting rocks and being immune to poison and Toxic Spikes. with great resistances. That allows it to tank hits but also means that Gambit generally is not going to tera until the end since losing that typing will really hurt in the long run. Great priority, strong stabs, SD etc etc. But I think people don't realise that Gambit does have a lot of solid counters.

If you don't count Tera you have Great Tusk, Zamza, Moltres, Corvi, Encore Dnite, Chomp etc as example of mons that can switch in and mons like Sneasler, Iron Val that can't get in safely but will win the 1v1, others before me on the first page have given a more detailed list but my point is, for a non Tera Gambit, you have plenty of viable options and this is without using your own Tera.

Tera is where the main debate is I feel. When suddenly Gambit is taking resisted hits or being immune as it SDs in your face, with 5 fallen it is a menace and probably why people feel its a busted mon but I feel like this can also be managed without asking too much since Gambit is both heavily limited in its movepool and the counters aren't losing to every Tera set.

Gambit is always running SD and Sucker. Without SD its easy to handle and without Sucker, its low base speed means that a lot of mons can outspeed and wipe it out. So out of Kowtow, Iron Head, Low Kick, Tera Blast, it can only pick 2 and that comes at a pretty big cost on what it can deal with. In regards to Tera, there are just pokemon that can handle it well regardless. Even with 5 fallen and max attack, Dozo is still winning that matchup unless its Tera Dark. Great Tusk isn't losing to any Tera unless Gambit is running Tera Blast. Moltres is beating every Tera but Fire, Dnite wins if Gambit is forced to Sucker a fast teammate which isn't avoidable if they can knock if out or if it wants to play risky and Encore it on the SD but you get the point. And this isn't even assuming that you have Tera at your disposal as well. Not only does this allow pokemon like Skele to now tank hits and win by burning it, it also just creates mindgames as your opponent has to consider what you'll Tera and what type and a misplay on their end can end the game.

I also just feel its extremely telegraphed on if/what its going to Tera into. Like if its their last mon and they haven't Tera'd its not gonna be hard to predict that they are going to Tera it when you go for a normally effective move and predict it. I've seen others also do this like using Ice Spinner on a full health Gambit as it goes Tera Flying. Overall I feel its overreliance on Tera, restricting it from the rest of its team, how it sits in the back until basically endgame or by the earliest mid, if its being used as emergency switch for Pult/Ghold and that while nothing beats every Tera (Can be said for so many other pokemon) There are consistent options and I don't think doubling up is even a bad thing, people might complain about having two Gambit answers on the same team like we've never had to run two pokemon to deal with one before, and that they have one magic answer that deals with every set Iron Val runs, but just know that those two pokemon have more value then stopping Gambit.

I'll probably vote ban since I believe in the long run that will lead to a healthier meta but I also don't think its broken so if it stays then that's fine

 

[Redfeatherz]

-Kingambit is extremely strong late game, triggering many mind games with Sucker Punch and all the possible (Dark, Fire, Water, Fairy, Flying and Ghost at least, but pretty sure Steel, Bug, Fight, Poison, Electric, Grass, Dragon and Ground can be viable in some teams) Tera types.
-But that's the thing: in late game. The 6 Mons that I mentioned to be more ban-worthy than Kingambit, they are all dangerous from the very beginning of the game to the end. Kingambit is a mediocre Mon in early game and becomes more dangerous as the game progresses.
...
Kingambit lacks versatility. Kingambit always uses SD and a combination of Kowtow Cleave, Iron Head, Sucker Punch and Low Kick, very rarely dropping 2 of them for Tera Blast. Except for the Tera type, Kingambit is predictable, you always know how he will try to sweep you and can act in advance.

I agree with you that it's banworthy, but suggest that Kingambit doesn't need to be versatile to consistently accomplish things in each game.
You always know how he will try to sweep you, true, but to "act in advance" is to hope that your boosted-sucker punch resistances are somewhat healthy right at the end of the game, when Kingambit's at its strongest. This is less than likely, given the nature of its checks like Tusk, who have more to offer throughout the game than just being the dedicated Kingambit answer at the very end, thus risk being weakened or KO'd beforehand.

Kingambit doesn't need to be useful throughout the game, even if it does have some relevent defensive utility. It doesn't need to support the team, rather the team only needs to support it by losing. What makes it so infuriating, in my eyes at least, is the way it can show up after the more competitive "main game" might be otherwise decided, and completely turn the result around with much less effort, in a kind of rigged post-game side event. It sucks when it arrives on the field at high health, with an easy opening to swords dance. Your team weakened by the game that came before it, the opponent likely mashes +2 Supreme Overlord Sucker Punch through your weakened team.

If it cannot simply do just this, however, it can bail itself out against potential answers:

1. With its natural bulk
2. Free turns gained from mispredicted sucker punches.
3. Further free turns gained from the potential threat of terastalising.

Its ability to take hits and force guessmaking from the opponent makes stealing back a win comparitvely straightforward to the game itself. Even if they lost everything leading up to their Kingambit hitting the field, regardless of what happened, they can just win anyway, and fairly reliably.

-Kingambit rewards bad plays. Well, more than rewards, doesn,t punish. You can play terribly and lose most of your team but that makes Kingambit strong.
-(Sorry for bringing and example from 3 Gens ago, but...) In XY/ORAS Aegislash was banned mostly for the 50/50 it triggered with Kings Shield vs contact physical Mons. The situation with Kingambit is different, but similar. There will often be scenarios in which there will be more or less 50% of win depending if Gambit uses Sucker Punch or another offensive move. This is made worse if we take into account the unrevealed Tera, what should I do, Headlong Rush non Tera Gambit or Ice Spinner predicting Tera Flying?
-As I said several times, I want to preserve Tera, but that means some of the best abussers of the mechanic have to go, Kingambit is one of them.
-Main argument for Ban though: its one less threat to prepare for. If Kingambit is gone, we can dedicate more slots for Iron Valiant, Baxcalibur, Enamorus, etc.
-So, in the end, this is not the Suspected Mon I personally wanted, but its still one whose Ban will move the Meta in (what I think is) the right direction.

Agreed, and I think a great comparison. XY Aegislash and Kingambit are similar in that they both introduce guessing games that considerably benefit the user more than the opponent.
Aegislash was the more versatile in what its sets accomplished, but they all capitalised on both King's Shield mindgames and its natural bulk and power to force the opponent into the definitive worse position (it was often worse than a 50/50, since even if you called the King's Shield correctly, Aegislash still took minimal damage in shield form before changing stance and getting good damage on you regardless. The Aegi user can afford to make mistakes; you can't).
Kingambit's movesets aren't as varied as Aegislash's were, but it still benefits just as heavily from one-sided mindgames that compliment its similarly impressive combined offensive and defensive power. Sucker Punch mindgames can be 50/50s, but when tera is factored in, and its natural bulk as well, your odds of winning are often worse than that as it can push past anything somewhat problematic that remains.

 

[shawk*+:)]

This suspect could’ve been avoided entirely if we just went after tera instead. Gambit has a lot of sets yes, but it reminds me like Gen 3 Salamence. Until the set is revealed nothing counters/checks it safely, once it is revealed however, each set has its checks. I do agree however that tera does push it a tad bit over the edge, but imho, Gambit is fine.

Don’t Ban.

also LOWKEY

Zone can trap gambit and basically force it to tera, it’s VERY gimmicky but it has helped me a lot, but i wouldn’t call zone a gambit counter. Also gambit’s sweep is entirely reliant on sucker punch. With proper prediction it can be tamed. Status also fucks it up for the most part.

 

[Deathbringer7]

This suspect could’ve been avoided entirely if we just went after tera instead. Gambit has a lot of sets yes, but it reminds me like Gen 3 Salamence. Until the set is revealed nothing counters/checks it safely, once it is revealed however, each set has its checks. I do agree however that tera does push it a tad bit over the edge, but imho, Gambit is fine.

Don’t Ban.

also LOWKEY

Zone can trap gambit and basically force it to tera, it’s VERY gimmicky but it has helped me a lot, but i wouldn’t call zone a gambit counter. Also gambit’s sweep is entirely reliant on sucker punch. With proper prediction it can be tamed. Status also fucks it up for the most part.

Problem is that scouting out that set isn't easy at all. In gen 3 if a Mence was led with you could already deduce it's either mixed or CB, not DD. You could probably confirm if Gambit is Lefties with mid game switches, but you still can't deduce it's Tera . If it shows no lefties, you can't reasonably deduce if it's black glasses or Lum until it gas attacked with Kowtow. Yes, every set has different counters and you can counter a particular Gambit set once it's been revealed, problem is that when its set is revealed it's probably GGs at that point.

 

[ayevon]

While I think it's easy to list out Kingambit counterplay on paper, I think we need be to realistic about gameflow and the reality that all of these pokemon are required to complete other roles on the team that ultimately leave them vulnerable to whichever way gambit decides to evade its checks. For as good as a stop Great Tusk is to it on paper, tusk is tasked with so much in these meta that you are constantly taking stray knock offs, earthquakes, ruinations etc. while trying to get up or remove hazards, that a tusk can be significantly chipped before kingambit even has to come in and try to do some of that chipping itself. The two most common mons outside of gambit are fighting types, one of which is the most physically bulky mons in the tier and the other which quad resists sucker punch, and it still got used on over 50% of wcop teams and won more than 57% of them.

Speaking of WCOP:

img

In playoffs, I played reiku, who brought Great Tusk, Moltres, ID Body Press Corv and Sneasler. And even after outplaying for me for the first 20+ turns and with all those checks/counters. it still ended up in a Sucker Punch 50/50 to decide the game.

img

Obviously, wearing down checks and counters is a big part of almost all team strategies, but I think the reality of the current metagame is that there are so many offensive threats and hazards are so ubiquitous that even a game that's been played well for the majority of the turns can slip away just because of how easy it is to maneuver around gambit's checks and counters and put them in a position to lose supreme overload boosted sucker punches. I don't know if I'll get reqs because it's presence doesn't annoy me as much as chi yu or something like that, but I think people making notepad lists of on paper answers are really ignoring how is it easy to position those checks to be irrelevant with not even decent but neutral play.

 

[WinstonRed]

Will give more indepth thoughts later, but I'd like to remind a lot of people in this thread about an important policy:

Suspects are neither done nor omitted to save X archetype in any given metagame. In turn the same goes for combatting them, and this means that every "But Kingambit helps a lot against X (e.g. Stall), so we need to keep it"-posts are completely irrelevant.

 

[TerraShade]

Kingambit is just so easy to check and you lose because you're bad.

In all seriousness though, Kingambit is kinda OP. Let's see why by understanding what this mon is.

Kingambit is a bulky wallbreaker with good special bulk, great attack and physical bulk and very low speed. Type-wise, the king is also great, with 9 resistances, 2 immunities and 3 weaknesses; heck, the fact Bisharp has been OU-Viable for 3 gens despite its mediocre stats for OU standards once it gained knock off and defiant became relevant should be a proof of how solid the combo is.

Now, what what are Kingambit's weaknesses? There's 2, it's meager 50 speed and its x4 weakness to fighting... in theory.

In practice, I have to ask you this: what does counter a Kingambit? Because I'm going to be honest, I'm not seeing anything, because counter means being able to deal with a +2 Kingambit at full health and being able to switch into one of its attack.

• Great tusk: Loses to Tera flying/fairy and 2 +2 Iron heads. I would say it's more of a check though, and even then only the Ice spinner variants.
• Iron Valiant: Hates metal despite being from the future.
• Ting-Lu: Same as Great Tusk, but also risks Iron head flinches and Kingambit survives a Body press, so it isn't even a check, more like Kingambit checks Ting-Lu more often than not.
• Gholdengo: Oddly enough it's a volatile matchup due to focus blast. If it doesn't have it it's an easy KO, if it does it becomes a mind game where you have to be incredibly careful to play around, and so does the opposing gholdengo. It goes from you hard countering it to the cheese checking you, so I'll give it a middle score of soft check.
• Zapdos: 90% of the time you lose to a +2 Kowtow Cleave. Might get an obnoxious paralysis though.
• Hisuan-Samurott: Now we're talking about something due to sacred sword and having a resistance to the STAB combo. Sadly said answer can lose to low kick + sucker punch or 2+ overlord low kick, so is only a check.
• Sneasler: Iron head + Sucker Punch is a guaranteed OHKO. Heck, even Iron head alone is enough with 4 allies fainted.
• Zamazenta-Hero: It actually could the 1v1 vs Tera Flying/Fairy if it gets critted. No wonder why the doggo is still in OU, although it still qualifies as a check due to Iron defense.
• Cinderace: This bunny is literally getting OHKOd by a black glasses Kowtow Cleave after 3 allies fainted, not to mention Kingambit is so bulky it can survive a Pyro Ball without Tera.
• Heatran: It gets OHKOd by low kick after 2-4 allies fainted depending on the set. Is still a check due to the sheer damage output of Magma storm on the special side and being faster, but a soft one due to the multitude of rolls in the process.
• Dondozo: With enough allies fainted Kingambit can outdamage rest recovery because Kingambit is faster, and with tera fairy/flying it can avoid serious damage from dondozo's body press. In the early game Dondozo does check Kingambit though.
• Landorus-T: Same story as with Great Tusk, except a bit worse due to not having fighting moves and therefore not being a reliable check.
• Ursaluna: This is the definition of a 50/50. One gets OHKOd by Low Kick + sucker punch, the other gets destroyed by Headlong rush, meaning it's unclear who checks who due to both having 50 speed.
• Volcanion: It gets OHKOd by +2 sucker punch after 2 allies fainted, or to Kowtow Kleave + Sucker punch on the switch. Still a check due to the sheer damage of modest STAB specs Fire blast and being able to survive an unboosted hit of Kingambit. Might be worth going for bulky Volcanion because it's as close to a counter I think we'll get.
• Cresselia: While most sets are easily defeatable by Kingambit, there's one who could reverse the course: TERA FIGHTING... which fails to OHKO Kingambit after a +2, while Iron head is still a clean 2HKO. If tera gets restricted this move will become even more for
• Hoopa-Unbound: It dies to an unboosted sucker punch after 3 allies died with black glasses. Even the bulkier sets fail to OHKO Kingambit with drain punch.
• Skeledirge: Another pokémon who looks promising. It outspeeds Kingambit, it can threaten it with a burn, it's so bulky it can survive 2 Kowtow cleaves if removed its weakness to ghost, it ignores Swords dances, has recovery and can threaten Skeledirge with either ghost or fire. There's one problem though: It's a ghost, therefore vulnerable to Kowtow cleave before tera. By definition is only a check because you need to enter into the field as tera water.
• Iron Moth: See Hoopa unbound above, replacing Sucker Punch with Kowtow Cleave/Sucker punch after 2 layers of spikes, and Drain punch with Fiery dance. That being said, Iron moth is a closer to a check than Hoopa, but stops being one once it took a layer of spikes and a x4 resisted U-turn.

Now we're entering the "pseudo-gimmick territory".

• Hydreigon: Almost always gets 2HKOd by Iron head and while it can 2HKO in return with Earth power, tera will put you outside any risk.
• Garchomp: It risks dying to a +2 black glasses sucker punch even without allies fainted, as well as Kowtow Cleave + Sucker punch, and it fails to OHKO kingambit consistently, even with tera ground. There's a reason Garchomp is no longer popular, although due to rocky helmet Garchomp might have a chance so is more of an even matchup.
• Lilligant: Similar to Sneasler, just slightly more difficult in the sense of now requiring spikes due to The flower girl having slightly more bulk. The access to physical quiver dance, sleep powder and ice spinner makes the matchup more even but still slightly in Kingambit's favor due to hustle.
• Sandy shocks: Similar to Garchomp oddly enough, it fails to OHKO With earth power and it dies to black glasses sucker punch.
• Basculegion: It gets destroyed by sucker punch. In case of tera water Kingambit still survives and can defeat the fish next turn.
• Arcanine-H: Gets destroyed by +2 sucker punch, is weak to rocks to the point of dying to sucker punch after some and even survives a head smash after tera Fairy. Another case of mostly equals.
• Greninja: It looks terrifying like Samurott, BUT nothing low kick + sucker punch can't deal with. Life orb is a double edge sword where the boost is amazing but it also makes it incredibly vulnerable to be weared down over time so it goes from an unreliable check to it being checked by Kingambit.
• 
  
• Iron threads: Gets defeated by a +2 Kowtow Cleave, Low kick + Sucker punch, and treads fails to even guarantee a 2HKO in return. It gets worse if you go offensive. No wonder why people threat this pokémon as a laughing stock.
• Mew: Aura sphere fails to OHKO Kingambit, while Kowtow kleave does not fail to OHKO Mew.
• Torkoal: Too passive to be a check, just agressive enough to force a normal tera. In case of Tera fire you can even counter it and use it as setup fodder.

Going any deeper would be a waste of time. But those are what was expecting to be BEST CASE SCENARIOS.

Kingambit	Counters	Hard checks	Checks	Soft checks-	Is neutral versus	Is Soft check'd by	Is check'd by	Is Hard check'd by	Countered is by-	Total
	8	6	16	10	6/7	4	3	Nothing at all	NOTHING	54​

In short, Kingambit is a pokémon who checks half of the tier, counters a sizable amount, is kinda checked by some Dondozo, Samurott, Skeledirge and Landorus sets, checked by Volcanion, Tusk and Zamazenta-Hero, and has nothing even resembling a counter.

Now, Seeing this list I have to wonder something:
What's the mon who would go out of control if Kingambit did not exist, making Kingambit essential for the tier?
The only thing who is close to an answer is Dragapult, and let's be real, there's other ways of handling Dragapult, most notably Enamorus-T, Moltres-G, Calm Mind cresselia, Alolan Muk or Meowscarada... picks that are very difficult to justify because of Kingambit. There's also the obnoxious Cresselia, but that set also has notable weakness like toxic, specs gholdengo, taunt heatran or specially defensive Skeledirge.

Kingambit is not essential for the tier. Great tusk is and proved itself as such by holding off Most kingambit sets. Without the Mammoth it would have been just impossible to build around, but said tusk is easy to lure because it has bad special defense. Also, I've never mentioned tera blast when concluding it's uncounterable and said tera type was mostly mentioned flying/fairy as almost interchangeable. Also, there's not a single monotype who resists both dark and steel, so both tera preview and tera blast bans wouldn't be that relevant.

Conclussion: Unless you fully ban tera, Kingambit will be too much for OU. Considering how unlikely it is for the full ban of said mechanic in this year, I would propose a ban for Kingambit. For the best of OU, because I don't have enough time nor talent to reach the very top of OU, I wish you vote for ban as well.

Okay, this is literally my first post so I don't really want to seem like an ass but I saw this and had to say something:

Gambit Doesn’t Beat As Many Pokemon As You Said
Ting-Lu, Lilligant-Hisui, Torkoal, Greninja, Cinderace, Iron Valiant, Sneasler, Treads, (Tera Water Garg also wins but hey) are counted as *checked* by Kingambit instead of checks *to* it, essentially because "Kingambit can run Tera X + Coverage Move and then Sucker Punch wins (no seriously, why does the extremely niche Tera Fire mean you BEAT Torkoal)". That's not how to check something- Hard switching into +2 5-stack Supreme Overlord Kingambit and dying to Sucker doesn't mean Kingambit can switch into these pokemon at all, nor can it revenge kill, and anyway you have Vali listed here, one of the hardest Kingambit answers in the tier who might as well force Teras on the spot with CC and threatens with Moonblast anyway, not to mention niche Encore+SD sets. Not to mention status moves- Ting-Lu Whirlwind, Rotom-W/Cinderace Wisp and Rotom can also Twave... Also includable here is Dragonite who tanks with Multiscale and makes Sucker mindgames scarier with Espeed/EQ, Enamorus who lives Sucker without large boosts and deletes with Earth Power, Corviknight who doesn't exactly beat Gambit 1v1 but cant be switched into because of Body Press... that's a massive amount of mons who you counted in the wrong direction.

You’re Saying Kingambit Beats Pokemon Harder Than It Does
Tornadus-T, Mew, and Alolan Muk are not real pokemon (Granted neither are Arcanine-H or Lilli-H), Enamorus-Therian, Scream Tail, Rillaboom, and Slowking-Kanto are not particularly relevant. And even so, Scream Tail/Slowking get free Twaves, Tornadus packs Heat Wave, Alolan Muk packs Drain Punch. In terms of meta Pokemon, Pult can Flamethrower or Wisp, Amoonguss can Spore, Garg Salt Cure is painful, Wake doesn't even die to 5 Supreme Overlord sucker from full and often has sub.

Also we're not really allowed to talk about this but I will very quickly mention that any Tera restriction would nerf King- Tera Preview tells you what it's running, Tera Blast ban likely brings back Volcarona and rules out Tera Fairy, and obviously Tera ban is a hard stop.

Obviously I could explain how Kingambit can't run every Tera Type and coverage move at once but I think that's obvious enough, so I'll stop bashing one post and move on to the wider discussion. Sorry Eel for focusing so much on your post, when I started making this you were the most recent post and the thread just moved ahead at light speed after.

Kingambit Doesn't Totally Hard Counter Pult/Deng: I agree with this, but also that means the Pokemon is worse than people think? It's odd to say that because a Pokemon is *less* effective than expected, it is *more* banworthy.

Kingambit Breaks Its Checks/You Have To Bring 2-3 Gambit Checks: I also agree with this, but I feel this leaves out the fact that Kingambit has the most checks that I've ever seen in my life- people say to just throw Tusk at it, but Ting-Lu, Zamazenta, Cinderace, Valiant, Hamurott all range from "good check" to "hard counter" and are obviously high-tier Pokemon, even Moltres is getting better and is a decent answer. Good Gambit checks practically stumble into your team when you're building.

Gambit is Obscenely Bulky: Yes, but also switching in to anything sharply compromises your ability to actually sweep late-game, since you are going to get beaten by Tusk or whatever else much more reliably. Look down a list of every Pokemon in OU- the vast majority of them have something solid to pressure Gambit, and the ones that don't are basically just named Toxapex and Glowking. Even things that you would think are pretty free setup fodder can annoy Gambit (like Twave/Wisp spam) or even beat it 1v1 (like Body Press Corv). Gambit forces some switches, but it is also often in quite serious danger if it doesn't Sucker (Moth, Wake, Basculegion even tho it's very uncommon) and Sucker Punching to revenge kill is begging to get switched out on and lose all momentum.

Gambit Forces Sucker Mindgames: Yeah I can’t argue there. You can run Encore/Wisp on Pokemon, and a team that is well built ideally shouldn’t have to deal with Sucker at all and should be able to beat it with something like Valiant, but understandably this isn’t always an option.

Tera Flips Matchups: Of course, but also having to tera to have a chance at beating any of your million answers is pretty rough, especially when you have to run different teras to beat different answers. I find it a lot more engaging to play against Kingambit than something like Garganacl, where the answer can boil down to “run Covert”.

Side note, I swear facing a Gambit on the enemy team makes me play less mindlessly “Tera Water Walking Wake and win ez”. If people hate the HO influx so much, then why do they also want to ban the best revenge killer in the tier? I’m sorry because I know that sounds sarcastic, but I’m genuinely asking because I don’t understand. Someone better at Pokemon than me please explain.

In the end, I still understand why people want to ban Gambit- You have to think about and fully account for the pokemon from the teambuilding screen all the way up until the battle ends. Even with all the flaws I listed, I can understand giving King the axe if people deem it excessively painful. I just don’t believe that Gambit is unanswerable, or even that its answers are Tusk+change alone.

Although- ayevon if you can can you send the replay of that game? I’m quite curious to see how Gambit slipped through that many answers.

 

[Eelstartega]

Also, here are some calcs to proof how good this thing is for the meta... Sorry, I meant in, not for.

Look at that damage

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Great Tusk: 325-384 (87.6 - 103.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after 1 layer of Spikes

104+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Iron Valiant: 290-344 (100.3 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord burned 2 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dragapult: 286-337 (90.2 - 106.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth rock

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Gholdengo: 386-456 (102.1 - 120.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 192-226 (50 - 58.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Baxcalibur: 378-446 (101.8 - 120.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 104 Def Zapdos: 382-451 (99.4 - 117.4%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Iron Head vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Ting-Lu: 243-286 (47.2 - 55.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock/Spikes and Leftovers recovery

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Enamorus: 223-263 (77.1 - 91%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 172+ Def Amoonguss: 370-436 (85.6 - 100.9%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 1 ally fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 144 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 180-213 (50.1 - 59.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. Is a 2HKO due to roost not fully healing you btw so it'll deall 100%+ damage on the second hit.

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Samurott-Hisui: 293-345 (91.2 - 107.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Cinderace: 325-384 (107.9 - 127.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Low Kick (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heatran: 338-398 (87.5 - 103.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus-Therian: 289-342 (90.5 - 107.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 3 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 192+ Def Toxapex: 271-321 (89.1 - 105.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Volcanion: 307-363 (101.9 - 120.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 4 allies fainted Kingambit Kowtow Cleave vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Unaware Dondozo: 172-204 (34.1 - 40.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 2 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. +1 252 HP / 88 Def Zamazenta: 195-229 (50.2 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

+2 252+ Atk Black Glasses Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Roaring Moon: 306-360 (87.1 - 102.5%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

All of this is with a Kingambit with 208 HP and no defense investment btw.

Look at that Bulk

252+ Def Ting-Lu Body Press vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 320-380 (81.4 - 96.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Cinderace Pyro Ball vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 308-366 (78.3 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 308-366 (78.3 - 93.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Landorus-Therian Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 306-360 (77.8 - 91.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Volcanion Flamethrower vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 338-398 (86 - 101.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO. This is why you run modest on said set.

252 SpA Zapdos Thunderbolt vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 165-195 (41.9 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

252+ Atk Guts Ursaluna Headlong Rush vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 291-343 (74 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Tera Fighting Cresselia Tera Blast vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 312-372 (79.3 - 94.6%) -- guarnteed 2HKO

96+ Atk Hoopa-Unbound Drain Punch vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 328-388 (83.4 - 98.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

132 SpA Iron Moth Fiery Dance vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 290-344 (73.7 - 87.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Tera Ground Garchomp Earthquake vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 188-222 (47.8 - 56.4%) -- 29.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

208 SpA Sandy Shocks Earth Power vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 312-368 (79.3 - 93.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Tera Water Basculegion Wave Crash vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Kingambit: 332-392 (84.4 - 99.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 Atk Choice Band Tera Fire Arcanine-Hisui Flare Blitz vs. 208 HP / 0 Def Tera Fairy Kingambit: 308-364 (78.3 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Mew Aura Sphere vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 336-396 (85.4 - 100.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO