Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 5 - King's Dead

[LoseToRU?]

2 of my 3 reqs losses were Gambit, because it's broken.
One was a random ass low ladder Tera Dark BU Corv- that's on me ig. Ladder goofy. Ik why a lot of frauds don't leave home w/o cheap Garg.
2nd L was a Gambit vs Gambit- I lose the speed tie.
3rd was just unreal.
Played better- kept a max HP Hands as my last, forced them to burn their Tera earlier in the game.
They SD, take big damage from my Azu, then KO me.
Hands comes in, W secured right.
+2 252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Iron Head vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Iron Hands: 207-244 (46.1 - 54.3%) -- 97.7% chance to 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes and Leftovers recovery
Iron Head flinches, gg.

Finch said we can retest Gambit with DLC drops as needed. Let's see what happens to the meta with a few weeks of no Gambit.
Ladder can't get any worse, why not switch it up?

(what? y'all thought I was serious?)

 

[658Greninja]

I want every pro-tera player to look at this replay and just look at the preview. If you're familiar with this game, you know that the baxcalibur is dd tera blast fire, a tech used to get around common bax counterplay such as balloon kingambit/gholdengo. So can somebody explain to me, using words and arguments NOT intuition, how Luthier could've pieced together that the baxcalibur was tera blast fire? Specifically what about MichaelderBeste2's team gives away the hint that it is tera blast fire?

Ok fine maybe preview isn't enough information. Can you point out which turn in particular, which play gave you solid information that you could use to reason that baxcalibur was tera blast fire? It's easier to create explanations in hindsight but I really want you to put yourself in Luthier's shoes, pretend you only know about team preview and the information gathered from turns 1-3.

Ok I know this thread isn’t about Tera but I wanna give my 2 cents. Yes it is possible to identify the possible Tera on a team. While it is true we can not be 100% right, we can decipher from the information we have. This replay is from Pre-Home when Volc was still legal. The team Luthier was using seems awfully weak to Bug Buzz Volc. If Valiant dies or if Volc isn’t clicking QD, the team has a clutch in Tera Fire Bax which also has the benefit of fliping the mu against Tera Water Hatt. As for the Tera Fire Blast, no clue. It seems specifically to bait Balloon Gambit and Ghold. The Volc ban made this less common and most Bax these days opt for Tera Dragon or Ground. For defensive Tera, its Tera Fairy or Tera Poison which matches up well into the fairies and also Sneasler.

As for Gambit, I saw a replay involving a tour game with Rilla + Tera Grass Gambit that swept through a stall team. Seems ridiculous but I don’t have a problem with it for a few reasons.

1: Tera Grass is rare and niche, Grass only having the benefit of 2HKOing Dozo and resisting EQ from Tusks, but the latter function is performed better by Tera Flying and you don’t have to keep that Fire weakness. OHKOing Tusk with Tera Grass after SD + 5 Supreme boosts can also be done by Tera Fairy which has more practicality. Not to mention going Tera Blast Grass means no Iron Head for Enam or Low Kick for opposing Gambit, making it worse overall just to have the opportunity to 6-0 stall which isn’t a big feat considering any combination of breakers, future sight, hazards, and knock can dispose of it.

2: It could be telegraphed by the fact that its paired with Rilla, thus justifying the use of it on a team.

3: Checking Gambit even with Tera in the equation is not a mindgame like ppl want to believe. The Teras Gambit uses the most are Dark/Fairy/Flying. Zama with ID and Heavy Slam is still beating Tera Fairy Gambit. BU Tusk with Ice Spinner is still checking Tera Flying, and Tera Dark still has issues vs fighting and fairy types. Lum covers burns but without Lefties, you become easier to batter down, and if you run Lefties or Balloon then it is vulnerable to burns. There are other Teras like Tera Ghost and Tera Fire. Tera Ghost? Congrats, you have a worse mu into opposing Gambit. Also don’t even try that max speed shit, you get one shot by Dnite EQ without Tera and Tusk EQ does like 40 to you. Tera Fire? Congrats, you just made Tusks’ job easier.

Players always talk about random Teras and saying shit like “Oh but Valiant can Tera Electric Tpunch to beat Molt, but how often do you see that? You use Tera Electric to beat Zapdos, Molt, and Pex but soon find you now can’t beat Colbur King, part of the reason why ppl use Tera Steel or Dark in the first place. Its the same case for Gambit. Realistically you only need to look out for Fairy/Flying/Dark.

 

[Baloor]

Ok I know this thread isn’t about Tera but I wanna give my 2 cents. Yes it is possible to identify the possible Tera on a team. While it is true we can not be 100% right, we can decipher from the information we have. This replay is from Pre-Home when Volc was still legal. The team Luthier was using seems awfully weak to Bug Buzz Volc. If Valiant dies or if Volc isn’t clicking QD, the team has a clutch in Tera Fire Bax which also has the benefit of fliping the mu against Tera Water Hatt. As for the Tera Fire Blast, no clue. It seems specifically to bait Balloon Gambit and Ghold. The Volc ban made this less common and most Bax these days opt for Tera Dragon or Ground. For defensive Tera, its Tera Fairy or Tera Poison which matches up well into the fairies and also Sneasler.

As for Gambit, I saw a replay involving a tour game with Rilla + Tera Grass Gambit that swept through a stall team. Seems ridiculous but I don’t have a problem with it for a few reasons.

1: Tera Grass is rare and niche, Grass only having the benefit of 2HKOing Dozo and resisting EQ from Tusks, but the latter function is performed better by Tera Flying and you don’t have to keep that Fire weakness. OHKOing Tusk with Tera Grass after SD + 5 Supreme boosts can also be done by Tera Fairy which has more practicality. Not to mention going Tera Blast Grass means no Iron Head for Enam or Low Kick for opposing Gambit, making it worse overall just to have the opportunity to 6-0 stall which isn’t a big feat considering any combination of breakers, future sight, hazards, and knock can dispose of it.

2: It could be telegraphed by the fact that its paired with Rilla, thus justifying the use of it on a team.

3: Checking Gambit even with Tera in the equation is not a mindgame like ppl want to believe. The Teras Gambit uses the most are Dark/Fairy/Flying. Zama with ID and Heavy Slam is still beating Tera Fairy Gambit. BU Tusk with Ice Spinner is still checking Tera Flying, and Tera Dark still has issues vs fighting and fairy types. Lum covers burns but without Lefties, you become easier to batter down, and if you run Lefties or Balloon then it is vulnerable to burns. There are other Teras like Tera Ghost and Tera Fire. Tera Ghost? Congrats, you have a worse mu into opposing Gambit. Also don’t even try that max speed shit, you get one shot by Dnite EQ without Tera and Tusk EQ does like 40 to you. Tera Fire? Congrats, you just made Tusks’ job easier.

Players always talk about random Teras and saying shit like “Oh but Valiant can Tera Electric Tpunch to beat Molt, but how often do you see that? You use Tera Electric to beat Zapdos, Molt, and Pex but soon find you now can’t beat Colbur King, part of the reason why ppl use Tera Steel or Dark in the first place. Its the same case for Gambit. Realistically you only need to look out for Fairy/Flying/Dark.

Other than the point of tera grass gambit being incredibly niche, you completely miss the point. (Talking about tera on gambit and not tera in general)

Due to the sheer amount of viable tera types on gambit its quite unreasonable for a player to be expected to predict the exact one it is running. Fairy/Dark/Poison/Flying/Fighting/Ghost/Fire/Water all have their pros and cons. While some are better than others and you might be able to bring it down to "oh their team cant break fat it might be dark", part of team building in this meta is to find goofy silly ways to troll your opponent while patching holes in your team with tera making all of these reasonable to mention. The mindgame comes from the turn of impact in which you tera kingambit and not how are you going to deal with it after. All this considered, this is why gambit teras are usually saved till endgame since part of the game in general is to eliminate threats to your wincon. Not to mention the shit show which is guessing what moves its running, tera fairy gambit doesnt even run tera blast 50% of the time.

As mentioned 8 million times by now, gambit can also use its tera to catch its checks off guard and put it in a favorable situation. Do you know how many times last olt cycle I tera fairy'd out of a cc to kill sneasler or valiant to win the game? Turns like that are incredibly game changing since their offensive check to gambit is just gone. These were vs good players in the 2000s as well, its just silly to assume people can telegraph this stuff when it can pick off wins consistently vs some of the best players on the site. Sure you can "predict the tera" but like mentioned its almost impossible to get enough information to deduce the typing it has.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Other than the point of tera grass gambit being incredibly niche, you completely miss the point. (Talking about tera on gambit and not tera in general)

Due to the sheer amount of viable tera types on gambit its quite unreasonable for a player to be expected to predict the exact one it is running. Fairy/Dark/Poison/Flying/Fighting/Ghost/Fire/Water all have their pros and cons. While some are better than others and you might be able to bring it down to "oh their team cant break fat it might be dark", part of team building in this meta is to find goofy silly ways to troll your opponent while patching holes in your team with tera making all of these reasonable to mention. The mindgame comes from the turn of impact in which you tera kingambit and not how are you going to deal with it after. All this considered, this is why gambit teras are usually saved till endgame since part of the game in general is to eliminate threats to your wincon. Not to mention the shit show which is guessing what moves its running, tera fairy gambit doesnt even run tera blast 50% of the time.

As mentioned 8 million times by now, gambit can also use its tera to catch its checks off guard and put it in a favorable situation. Do you know how many times last olt cycle I tera fairy'd out of a cc to kill sneasler or valiant to win the game? Turns like that are incredibly game changing since their offensive check to gambit is just gone. These were vs good players in the 2000s as well, its just silly to assume people can telegraph this stuff when it can pick off wins consistently vs some of the best players on the site. Sure you can "predict the tera" but like mentioned its almost impossible to get enough information to deduce the typing it has.

Na there are pro-teras that would look at your replays and with a straight face, 100% unironically, say that Sneasler should have Dire Claw'd and the Val didn't play well enough earlier in the game and that they should have kept Tera Fairy in mind when planning their endgame wincon.

 

[658Greninja]

Due to the sheer amount of viable tera types on gambit its quite unreasonable for a player to be expected to predict the exact one it is running. Fairy/Dark/Poison/Flying/Fighting/Ghost/Fire/Water all have their pros and cons. While some are better than others and you might be able to bring it down to "oh their team cant break fat it might be dark", part of team building in this meta is to find goofy silly ways to troll your opponent while patching holes in your team with tera making all of these reasonable to mention.

Once again, how often do you see these those Teras outside of Flying/Fairy/Dark and the occasional Fighting/Fire? Rarely. Again, these Teras have their niches but they are primarily there to strengthen 2-3 matchups such as Tera Poison for Fairies (which again can be done with Tera Fire), Spirit Break Valiant (which again, Gambit still matches up well with Fairy or Flying) , and Sneasler, oh and you make Tusk’s job easier.

The mindgame comes from the turn of impact in which you tera kingambit and not how are you going to deal with it after. All this considered, this is why gambit teras are usually saved till endgame since part of the game in general is to eliminate threats to your wincon. Not to mention the shit show which is guessing what moves its running, tera fairy gambit doesnt even run tera blast 50% of the time.

Gambit is gonna Tera in the endgame, which means you can save your guess work for Gambit since most likely they’re gonna save Tera for their Gambit. Endgame also means Gambit is more than likely to Tera to win the 1v1, and thus its easier to read it.

As mentioned 8 million times by now, gambit can also use its tera to catch its checks off guard and put it in a favorable situation. Do you know how many times last olt cycle I tera fairy'd out of a cc to kill sneasler or valiant to win the game? Turns like that are incredibly game changing since their offensive check to gambit is just gone. These were vs good players in the 2000s as well, its just silly to assume people can telegraph this stuff when it can pick off wins consistently vs some of the best players on the site. Sure you can "predict the tera" but like mentioned its almost impossible to get enough information to deduce the typing it has.

Thats on them for not clicking Dire Claw on the obvious Tera attempt. And once again, midground plays exist, such midgrounds as mentioned a thousand times is Substitute, Trick, and Encore which works against Gambit no matter the Tera, and these options are accessible to meta mons like Dnite, Valiant, Ghold, Wake, Washtom, etc.

 

[Moyashi]

Thats on them for not clicking Dire Claw on the obvious Tera attempt.

"Just click the other attack assuming they'll Tera" aka "just win mindgames" isnt the defense you think it is. You claim it's obvious, but it can play off your assumption it'll tera and take advantage of it. That's the kind of mindgames Tera gambit can promote, among others and it's not something that's healthy for a metagame to have a Pokemon who pushes such lategame mindgames.

 

[Napoli Burns]

Just click the other attack assuming they'll Tera" aka "just win mindgames"

say that Sneasler should have Dire Claw'd and the Val didn't play well enough earlier in the game

lol +1, pro-tera players mad than ever

those Teras outside of Flying/Fairy/Dark

these are already enough tera able to make me fail to revenge kill gambit or any other pokemon with a fight or ground move, both 3 are perfectly viable in the rmt section i even found tera flying gambit with ab

"in depth skill", randomly guessing if i can safely click eq with lando-t against a 30% gambit after being forced to 50/50 with sucker punch, hoping he does not tera flying lol it's sounds like an episode of yu-gi-oh or jojo more than a pokemon battle

btw allowing or banning gambit would never fix this terrible metagame until tera doesn't get restricted, curious to see who the next scapegot will be (bax? knight?)

 

[awyp]

Decided to change my mind after playing quite a lot on the ladder, I went from DNB to BAN on Kingambit, thanks to some opposing posts on this thread. I'm not going to take in account the DLC that's coming out in a month.

 

[yomaalt]

Welp uh, 22 minutes till the 10th (for EST)

I forgor to get reqs, so whatever happens is in the hands of the several hundred of voters who did.

All I'm gonna say is, take a good look at gambito, him and all his annoying tools, and cast your vote. Cya tomorrow, OU.

 

[Finchinator]

Thanks to the inclusion of OLT alts in the suspect process, this suspect test saw a 6% increase in voter qualification, which is remarkable considering we are entering a sitting-duck period with DLC coming and turnout tends to go down as metagames grow older. I am working on the vote now and hopes are for it to be up around midnight, which is the deadline for qualifying.

Thanks to everyone who participated!

 

[Lobby Eeveee]

(I’m in favour of ban)
Here is a guide to checkmating countering gambit!
1: First, pick at least 3 of these gambit checks (or run stall). You also need some synergies with these for a good team.
->
Synergy: lol get iron threads too because tusk can’t spin or it can’t counter gambit.
-> ID
Synergy: idk uhhhh run offense?
-> (Tera fighting body press or curse)
Synergy: run stall lmao
-> /
Synergy: nothing specific but do note that unless ur facing gambit you are playing with a team of 5 mons + a sacrifice.
-> Scarf
Synergy: this is a really flexible check, but you need 2 others.
-> ID
Synergy: either get another hazard remover or another pivot. Corviknight can’t do both if it’s forced to ID.
-> Tera
Synergy: your other 5 mons better not need Tera to perform well.

2: Prepare for all gambit Tera’s.
You actually have to prepare for all viable Teras.

LIST OF GAMBIT TERAS
Common:
-Flying: beats tusk. That’s why you need 3 checks
-Fairy: Runs Tera Fairy Tera Blast. You have to prep for it (deal with it lol)
-Fire: Get good and learn to counter it without burns
-Ghost: Uhhh predict it? Idk
-Dark: On one of your 3 checks, run a Tera that resists dark.

Uncommon:
-Grass: This removes many of its weaknesses. So uhhh chip it with strong neutral attacks? It’s no problem if you follow step 1 and run 3 checks.
-Steel: Get lucky cuz ummm you have the potential to be flinched 32 times in a row. And/or run rocky helmet on one of your 3 checks.
-Water: follow step 1 and you will be fine!

Weird niche bullshit:
-Dragon: Luckily for you it has new weaknesses. I doubt you can exploit them though… just run 3 checks.
-Bug: It’s similar to flying Tera so just read flying Tera.
-Poison: It’s still weak to ground so you can hit it with those.
-everything else: follow step 1.

3: VERY IMPORTANT!!!!!

Until you have known the gambit Tera, don’t bring out your 3 checks. Once you have known the gambit Tera, pick one check and then you can use the 2 others freely.

Congratulations! You have successfully countered kingambit. If you followed this guide and lost to all teams without a gambit then vote ban like me!!!!

edit: fuck I’m too late.
edit 2: nvm

 

[Finchinator]

The vote is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-5-voting.3725955/

 

[658Greninja]

The vote is up: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/sv-ou-suspect-process-round-5-voting.3725955/

Judgment day is upon us

 

[JunkoAJ]

Thats on them for not clicking Dire Claw on the obvious Tera attempt.

You cannot be fucking serious lol - there is no "obvious" Tera attempt, it is guesswork. Which is FINE to have but to say "it's obvious, just click this button!!!" is completely disingenuous.

 

[arnimacarni]

Judgment day is upon us

Get those Bisharps ready my bois

 

[Fenghuang]

Imagine any time a Pokémon is being looked at "well we banned one very specific portion of Kingambit rather than the whole Mon, why can't we do it again!" Banning parts of a Pokémon is never a good idea. This matter has been addressed basically every suspect and it will never happen. Hell if we ban Supreme Overlord then why not:

-Unban flutter Mane but it can't use any moves above 60 BP
-Unban palafin but it can't switch
-Ban Iron Bundle only from teams that also have Pelipper
-unban Annihilape but it can't use Rage Fist
-allow Miraidon in the tier but it can't use STAB moves or be paired with any Quark Drive Pokémon
-Unban Volcarona but it cannot Terastalize

Hell why do we even know Supreme Overlord is the issue and why are we choosing that to ban? We could ban Kingambit from becoming Fairy or Flying and everything might be fine. Or we could ban it from holding an item. You see what I mean here, this shit is stupid. As finch has had to tell you people literally every suspect, very specific bans of parts of Pokémon are stupid and will never happen. Please stop

All of these are complex bans, banning SO isn't

 

[BolTingBlazie]

I feel as if this suspect is gonna be close, I predict its barely DNB or barely BANNED

 

[Eelstartega]

I feel as if this suspect is gonna be close, I predict its barely DNB or barely BANNED

I hope is barely banned for a simple reason: Is better to have 38% unhappy than 59% unhappy.

Now, I know all of you are nervous, but luckily have a happy tune to relax while waiting.

Edit: Wait that tune is the Unovan league, the most tension building of them all when I wanted to put route 10. At least is fitting for what Kingambit is having right now.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

Easy balancing to Kingambit but considered complex ban. Kingambit must run Pressure ability. It will still be an insane mon but will balance it big time. We could run an argument for just not having Supreme Overlord but I think if it was just Pressure it would be cool. People might try to run Eviolite Defiant Bisharp but who knows. Still knocks down Kingambit to a good power level and less reverse 6-0.

No. We do not nerf overpowered Pokemon to keep them. The only complex bans Smogon had were eventually reworked into a simple ban.

For me, it's its ability supreme overlord who is totally broken, like last respect was. I cant vote (I'm too bad in gen 9 lol), but if I could, I would vote for not banning Kingambit. But if I was asked to vote about its supreme overlord talent, it would be a clear yes.
But its just my opinion, and my influence worth 0. And maybe its me who dont fully understand the power of Kingambit, maybe its one of reason why I wont go over 1200-1300 in ladder, but I 100% assume that Kingambit isn't broken by himself, only its main ability. I would be sad if Kingamit would be banned. I like when Pokemon help past gens pokemon by giving them an extra evolution for surviving to the power creep.

See above. And we cannot ban Supreme Overlord because it's exclusive. Heck, last generation had Galarian Darmanitan getting the banhammer instead of Gorilla Tactics. And speaking of Last Respects, it was not banned until Basculegion got released; Houndstone had to be banned instead.

All of these are complex bans, banning SO isn't

How can you be certain Supreme Overlord is the problem and not Kingambit itself??? You cannot; the burden of proof would be impossible to meet.

 

[Eelstartega]

If I had to guess it would be like a 70-75% Support of the ban, in good part thanks to the not very believable answers. Is not like Walking wake where we needed more reliable checks or Zamacenta where we needed better tanks, because Kingambit just has way more tools than any OU mon should have.

Is like Kyurem or Volcarona though, only OP enough to be banworthy, and unlike other even more overpowered stuff, it lacks reliable answers, but it could be argued. A lot of things in OU are like that but are easier to handle. If it wasn't due to Tusk i guarantee you Kingambit would have been quickbanned.

 

[Fenghuang]

No. We do not nerf overpowered Pokemon to keep them. The only complex bans Smogon had were eventually reworked into a simple ban.


See above. And we cannot ban Supreme Overlord because it's exclusive. Heck, last generation had Galarian Darmanitan getting the banhammer instead of Gorilla Tactics. And speaking of Last Respects, it was not banned until Basculegion got released; Houndstone had to be banned instead.


How can you be certain Supreme Overlord is the problem and not Kingambit itself??? You cannot; the burden of proof would be impossible to meet.

I think this is a good point, but it's a different one from your previous one. Banning SO is not a gateway to complex bans, it might just be unfeasible. Fwiw I don't know what the parameters are for a particular mechanic being "the problem", e.g. we banned baton pass even though it's fine on the majority of mons that get it. We could ban Espeon and Ninjask and the gang all to Ubers because absol and drifblim and glaceon and orbeetle are fine with it. We generally ban moves when the moves are having a bad impact on the meta. In the past we've tried to avoid banning unique moves or abilities mostly because Smogon prefers banning mons, but with the increased proliferation of unique mechanics I wonder if that deserves a rethink.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

I think this is a good point, but it's a different one from your previous one. Banning SO is not a gateway to complex bans, it might just be unfeasible. Fwiw I don't know what the parameters are for a particular mechanic being "the problem", e.g. we banned baton pass even though it's fine on the majority of mons that get it. We could ban Espeon and Ninjask and the gang all to Ubers because absol and drifblim and glaceon and orbeetle are fine with it. We generally ban moves when the moves are having a bad impact on the meta. In the past we've tried to avoid banning unique moves or abilities mostly because Smogon prefers banning mons, but with the increased proliferation of unique mechanics I wonder if that deserves a rethink.

The problem with Baton Pass was that it was legitimately broken, needing specific counters that were not good for much else to beat (and even those counters could still be played around), and uncompetitive because it took the skill aspect of the game out of the equation, reducing it to matchup and luck. They tried to nerf it several times in Gen 6, but eventually they just decided to outlaw it altogether (that said, it wasn't banned in doubles in gen 7, and some of the earlier generations don't have it banned, but they do restrict it; also, the problem with it was full teams that constantly swapped between each other using stat buffs until the final recipient was boosted enough to sweep the opposing team).

 

[Fenghuang]

The problem with Baton Pass was that it was legitimately broken, needing specific counters that were not good for much else to beat (and even those counters could still be played around), and uncompetitive because it took the skill aspect of the game out of the equation, reducing it to matchup and luck. They tried to nerf it several times in Gen 6, but eventually they just decided to outlaw it altogether (that said, it wasn't banned in doubles in gen 7, and some of the earlier generations don't have it banned, but they do restrict it; also, the problem with it was full teams that constantly swapped between each other using stat buffs until the final recipient was boosted enough to sweep the opposing team).

Ok but what if we just banned all the baton pass abusers. It would be absurd but we could do it.

 

[Xufactor]

How can you be certain Supreme Overlord is the problem and not Kingambit itself??? You cannot; the burden of proof would be impossible to meet.

You can never isolate a move or ability as being banworthy because of how powerful it is. See the example of Arena Trap and Shadow Tag in post #247. As long as the mon with the mechanic is weak enough, it can be legal. You can loosely say a mechanic is the problem when there are multiple abusers of it.

Banning Supreme Overload I don’t think would be a complex ban. But it won’t happen as only one mon learns it.

 

[Finchinator]

Kingambit remains legal in SV OU after a close vote, only obtaining 55% support when 60% was needed: https://www.smogon.com/forums/threa...ss-round-5-voting.3725955/page-6#post-9736072