Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Sleepwalking

[Zatqer]

After I get suspect reqs, I will most likely vote BAN on Walking Wake. I’ve seen here that the most common argument against banning Walking Wake is that ‘it has definite counters’. However, I feel that this is a false belief. Weather, as a playstyle, has NO counters, only checks. As a playstyle, weather will always overwhelm the opponent by cracking down on their walls and counters. There are no counters to weather, because there is nothing that can continuously swap in to Weather throughout the entire game. The sun teams that Wake thrives in, often pack their own counters and checks to Walking Wake’s ‘counters’. One abuser will break down the walls, another will clean up. Walking Wake already has power, but its teamates push it up to broken for me. Wake has access to unlimited coverage because of Tera Blast, to further crack down on its ‘counters’.

To define centralizing, I believe that something is centralizing when every team needs to run something to deal with it. However, centralizing is not necessarily a bad thing. In gen 8, nearly every team ran a Ground type mon just to deal with electrics like Zeraora and Eleki. Yet, neither were banned. Landorus-Therian and Garchomp, the OU grounds were already excellent pokemon; there was no downside to running one of them. Infact their immunity to Electric was more akin to an added benefit. But, when centralizing results in every team needing to run an unviable option just to deal with a threat, I think that threat would be broken. Spectrier in gen 8 resulted in people running Snorlax to deal with it, just like how now people are running Water Absorb Clodsire, Slowking and more only to deal with Wake. Clodsire is a good pokemon, but Unaware is vastly more viable because of blocking sweepers. Slowking and Pex do have niches in some teams, but their checking of Wake is their main purpose, as they are not as viable as other pokemon that could be in the slot.

Some other solutions to Wake actually die to certain sets, Lily’s post, CaptainSC’s post and Ausma’s post prove this. TL;DR, Wake centralizes the metagame, forcing it to run ‘counters’ and then Wake beats those ‘counters’ anyway.

 

[Divine Retribution]

...

I don't like responding to suspect discussions when I don't plan on actually participating in the suspect myself (which I don't, not only for a lack of time but also because I'm genuinely completely on the fence for the Pokemon being suspected), but the more I read this post, the more it annoys me. The whole point of this thread is to present arguments to convince people who are undecided to vote one way or another, and posts like this just don't do that. At a glance, this seems like an informed post (it even has calcs!) but when you actually read it and consider the points being made for more than a few seconds, you realize that it's pretty much completely pointless and tells you nothing that you couldn't figure out on your own by reading Walking Wake's Bulbapedia page. Let's take a closer look.

First, great offensive and defensive typing. Water/Dragon has the ability to hit almost every type combo neutrally, only things really stopping it would something such as an Azumarill , Water Absorb Clodsire, and even an opposing Walking Wake.

Well, first of all, Walking Wake doesn't resist Water/Dragon, it is in fact weak to Dragon. But I'll assume that's an honest mistake, that's not even really the problem here. The problem here is that precisely zero people who are capable of getting suspect reqs don't already know why Water/Dragon is good typing. This is going to be a common theme going forward.

Both Sun and Rain teams have taken advantage of this new prehistoric beast with the new Hydro Steam move, ripping big holes into teams with the lack of much Water resists, and many counters To WW dont want to switch into a boosted Hydro Steam.

Yes, it's good in both weathers. Literally anyone who takes a cursory look at its movepool and abilities can figure that out on their own; you'll notice the group of people who can make suspect reqs is entirely contained within that former group. You also say that counters to Wake don't want to switch in on boosted Hydro Steams; judging by this and the calcs you provide, you seem to be confusing checks with counters. Again, not really the main issue here but just something I wanted to point out.

Iron Valiant does not counter Walking Wake. Iron Valiant checks Walking Wake. In most circumstances, if Valiant is given a free switch, it will beat Wake, however, it cannot safely switch in on Wake. This makes it a check, not a counter. Blissey would be an example of a counter to Wake; barring some absurd set like RestTalk or Dragon Dance, Blissey can switch into anything Wake carries and cripple it with Thunder Wave or chip it down with Seismic Toss.

Also OHKOing something with 74/60 special bulk is not exactly an impressive calc.

Walking Wake doesn't even need Sun or Rain to be good. Being a Paradox Pokemon, it's stats are already very good, having a speed tier of over 100 make the base 125 SpA work hand and hand together. With that speed, not really anything going to be outspeeding it. The ones that do are either weak to WW or you have to sacrifice a Pokemon to get it on the field. And that's not even saying it can boost that speed with a Booster Energy or Choice Scarf! (Not sure why you'd run Scarf WW but it's an example)

I feel like this is the closest you get to making a salient point and I still hate it because you still dropped the ball. Maybe just a personal pet peeve of mine but the fact that it's a Paradox Pokemon is completely irrelevant, don't even bring it up. It's the same thing as bringing up that a Pokemon is a legendary or an ultra beast or whatever; a complete non-sequitur. Competitively that means nothing. 109 base Speed and 125 base Sp. Atk aren't exactly all that impressive on their own either; if stats like that make it banworthy, when are we suspecting Iron Moth, or Gengar? Do you really think there's a single person who sat down, read your post, and said "oh shit, I didn't realize Wake has 125 base Sp. Atk", then goes on to make suspect reqs and vote ban because of that?

It's true that this Pokemon is difficult to outspeed when it's getting a Speed boost from Protosynthesis (and this is why I say this is the closest you've come to making an actual point; the fact that this Pokemon has little reliable offensive counterplay when in its element is something that should be emphasized in any pro-ban argument), but right at the beginning of this paragraph you seem to indicate that you're talking about using it outside of weather teams, an observation further supported by you mentioning Booster Energy (a pointless item if you're providing it with sun support) at the end of the paragraph. It's also true that offensive teams often need to either play very aggressively or sac something to revengekill Walking Wake... in the sun.

Another problem is that you're way too vague here. You say few things outspeed it and you often need to sac something to get a revengekiller in, but is not that true of a ton of other offensive Pokemon as well? It certainly is for Iron Valiant, Dragonite, Volcarona, Roaring Moon... What sets Wake apart from these Pokemon?

Many other people are making similar arguments as mine.

This is, unfortunately, the truth. There are a ton of frankly bad arguments being thrown around in this thread, this is just the one that caught the worst of my ire. While there have been some good posts that discuss more subtle topics like Wake's impact on the metagame, counterplay (or a perceived lack thereof) to Wake, whether Wake itself is banworthy or just a symptom of a larger problem, and how one goes about playing around Wake and the difficulties thereof, there has also been a ton of people saying "Walking Wake should be banned because it has good stats and typing" or similarly flaccid arguments.

When you post in suspect threads, please don't just list random facts about the Pokemon that you would get from reading its Smogon analysis or Bulbapedia page or whatever. Literally every single person who's going to participate in the suspect already knows this information. Most of that information is included in the OP of the suspect thread. Everyone has at least a basic idea of what this Pokemon does; nobody needs to know that it's kind of scary in the sun, or that it has good typing. Explain why that's a problem. Explain the impact Wake has had on the metagame and why that's a bad thing. Explain why the counterplay to Wake isn't sufficient (you need to be more specific than saying not much outspeeds it and it OHKO's a Pokemon with 74/60 special bulk). If you really want to go all in, grab some replays from the higher ladder or tour games to support your arguments. For most suspects usage statistics can have some value as well; this is unfortunately not the case with Wake as it was suspected so quickly after its release.

It's frankly patronizing to throw obvious information at us like we didn't already know that or like it's going to convince anyone one way or another. Precisely zero people on this website read a post like this, change their mind because of it, and then go on to make suspect reqs.

 

[Borbito]

I will be voting No Ban myself, I feel that the meta is still developing and banning WW so early after release isn't justified by its current strength level. Unlike Chi Yu and Chen Pao, the Pokemon has clear weaknesses that can be exploited. Walking Wake, unlike the other banned mons which had very few answers and resulting in revenge killing and very specific pokemon being the only way to take them out.

1. Walking Wake is very underwhelming outside of sun, without it, it's a mediocre special attacker with no real way to break through enemy teams. Sun also lacks an easy way to set up and safely pivot Walking Wake into the field, allowing you to OHKO the Pokemon on switch. Opposing weather or stalling out sun in order to pick off Torkoal are genuine strategies. I'd argue that, unlike other protosythesis mons, Walking Wake is one of the worse outside sun (Up there with treads).
2. Most Walking Wakes use Choice Specs to boost the power of Hydro Steam, or Choice Scarf to outspeed a majority of OU mons preboost (Although this is less likely due to the rising popularity of Protosythesis: Spd > Protosynthesis: SpA). Water absorb pokemon, while not ideal to run on every tream structure, is a genuine option when dealing with Walking Wake, leading to interesting mindgames between Swapping or Staying, which is far more fun than Chen Pao's "How will I react to Tera Dark Crunch, Priority OHKOs, and Sacred Sword". The mindgame of switching to a Pokemon that can eat a Hydro Steam and OHKO in return, or staying calling out their swap.

I do believe Walking Wake is a powerful Pokemon with a very strong gimmick, but I don't think there has been enough time for the meta to settle and for counterplay to develop. If anything, Pokemon like Garganycl are more deserving of a vote than this mon, but that's just my two cents.

 

[Bakugames]

I don't know how to feel abt the argument that ww being bad outside of sun means its balanced. Sun teams are very hard to deal with it and have little competition (rain isn't optimal but still boosts ww, sand and snow are pretty bad). It's a vicious cycle where ww enables sun to an insane degree, making sun extremely easy to run, meaning that ww is easily enabled on itself

 

[Moyashi]

Walking Wake is very underwhelming outside of sun, without it, it's a mediocre special attacker with no real way to break through enemy teams. Sun also lacks an easy way to set up and safely pivot Walking Wake into the field, allowing you to OHKO the Pokemon on switch. Opposing weather or stalling out sun in order to pick off Torkoal are genuine strategies. I'd argue that, unlike other protosythesis mons, Walking Wake is one of the worse outside sun (Up there with treads).

Not sure how you can call it mediocre as a special attacker as even outside sun, two high BP stab, high special attack and good speed make it fine. It's basically a slower, stronger water breaker compared to Greninja, which is a very good special attacker already. It's still very capable of breaking teams without sun. Now, it's much more balanced without sun, but sun is enough to push it into controversy.

Sun has a good setter in Torkoal, often carries eject button Hatterene and pivot users to bring abusers of sun in. So it's not really hard to get on the field. And OHKO Wake? With what?

Opposing weather or stalling out sun in order to pick off Torkoal are genuine strategies. I'd argue that, unlike other protosythesis mons, Walking Wake is one of the worse outside sun (Up there with treads).

Stalling out sun is not really reliable given how brutal Wake is on its own, combined with potent abusers from Roaring Moon to Proto Great Tusk and even non proto sun abusers. Opposing weather similarly is not reliable either. Wake has a positive matchup into rain, and neither sand nor snow are viable playstyles right now.

Most Walking Wakes use Choice Specs to boost the power of Hydro Steam, or Choice Scarf to outspeed a majority of OU mons preboost (Although this is less likely due to the rising popularity of Protosythesis: Spd > Protosynthesis: SpA).

Most walking Wake run specs followed by booster energy. Not scarf. And even in the case of spark proto boosts, specs is still used.

Water absorb pokemon, while not ideal to run on every tream structure, is a genuine option when dealing with Walking Wake, leading to interesting mindgames between Swapping or Staying, which is far more fun than Chen Pao's "How will I react to Tera Dark Crunch, Priority OHKOs, and Sacred Sword". The mindgame of switching to a Pokemon that can eat a Hydro Steam and OHKO in return, or staying calling out their swap.

You're admitting water absorb mons (which there is one viable user of the ability) are not something you fit on every team... Is kind of working against your argument. Plus, no one's contesting it as an option. The issue is it shouldn't be one of the only options, for bulkier teams to try and handle it.

 

[Baloor]

I don't really have any strong opinions on walking wake being banned so I won't be voting as I do think its relatively restrictive but I don't find it broken in practice, similar vain to my stance on Chien-Pao which is why I also sat that test out. Outside of weather, it tends to not be anymore threatening then top special breakers we have like pult and valiant, even without one of the counters like gastro/clodsire. The only time this mon is particularly annoying is under sun (rain shares too many common checks with wake making progress difficult to make), which is where the restrictiveness for needing one of the hard counters comes from, but at the same time, sun is a painfully inconsistent playstyle that needs very particular support to the point where having super strong breaker like Walking Wake around still isn't a good enough selling point to use it. Sure you can post the walls of hydro steam calcs that I've been seeing but it doesnt change that Wake requires certain support and positioning to even get that chance to nuke like people are claiming. Sun still boosts other proto mons which can take turns off Wake to set themselves up like Roaring Moon (lowkey broken btw), or be annoying like opposing Wake and Water BU Tusk. There's a ton of ways to soft check it in a regular team without running one of the top counters like gastro/clod/slowking/scream tail/pex and while these are the most reliable ways to deal with it they certainly are not the only ways. I've seen a plethora of different Tera techs that can abuse the simplicity as wake as way to its benefit like Water Volcarona (the community voted to keep tera and while "oh x needs to tera to check y" is a bad argument by all conventual means, its unfortunately part of the meta we play). I also find it gets forced out a lot? Which can end up being a problem long terms because this is a mon that HATES chip and it doesn't have the benefit of being able to run boots like Chien Pao did since it very much needs to run choiced or lefties depending on the set. It is a incredibly strong mon for sure but has very notable flaws in game and is not this absolute beast that some people in this thread or the OU room might make you believe.

With all that said, If I were to vote I would probably vote ban as I feel this is more of limited dex issue at the moment causing building restrictions because the hard counters Wake does have are very much unfun momentum sinks and I'd rather not play vs gastro/clod/slowking/scream tail/pex every game but I don't find Wake actually anymore broken than say something like Volcarona.

 

[Black Hanzo]

ngl the Downplaying Walking Wake outside of Sun teams is kinda crazy but i don't know if i want to blame new toy syndrome or not since it's existence i haven't been using Greninja or specs Dragapult it kinda stole their roles in what i want from a sp attack water or dragon type

 

[Mega Breloom]

I don't know how to feel abt the argument that ww being bad outside of sun means its balanced. Sun teams are very hard to deal with it and have little competition (rain isn't optimal but still boosts ww, sand and snow are pretty bad). It's a vicious cycle where ww enables sun to an insane degree, making sun extremely easy to run, meaning that ww is easily enabled on itself

It is relevant because it means that most Wake's teams have a very similar structure and how others have pointed out, in pratice sun is very inconsistent as is very reliant on the meta trends to be effective. Chi-yu for example was OP in any team and that allowed Nemo to have more options to deal with the little counterplay it had, while wake's outside sun is very limited and overall worst to others special attackers, mainly because of its limited movepool and the meh speed tier and lack of natural resistence to sucker punch.
Also, Torkoal is a dead weight most of the time and even can be abused by common stuff like Garg or sub Pult.

 

[Return to Zero]

while wake's outside sun is very limited and overall worst to others special attackers, mainly because of its limited movepool and the meh speed tier and lack of natural resistence to sucker punch.

Even outside of sun, the combination of Water/Dragon/Fire/Free Space For Tera Blast can hit just about everything neutrally at bare minimum. It's not the fastest outside of sun, but it's fast enough to where the pool of things that outspeed it are small enough to play around and run teammates for to deal with instead (There's only 8 and none of them are known for their staying power except maybe Sub Dragapult). Priority only helps if it's already been worn down too:

252+ Atk Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Tera Poison Walking Wake: 105-124 (30.9 - 36.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Tera Normal Dragonite Extreme Speed vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 235-277 (69.3 - 81.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 307-363 (95 - 112.3%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 172-204 (50.7 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Tera Fighting Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 234-276 (69 - 81.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Breloom: 428-504 (163.9 - 193.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 12 Def Walking Wake: 207-244 (61 - 71.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ Atk Supreme Overlord 5 allies fainted Tera Dark Kingambit Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Walking Wake: 280-330 (82.5 - 97.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Flamethrower vs. 112 HP / 0 SpD Kingambit: 326-384 (88.3 - 104%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

Edit: Wrong third calc for Dragonite, gomenasorry.

 

[LadTheLad]

Ww is built like a water spatt ver of garchomp, with some fiddling around on smogons dmg calc, no pokemon can really counter it unless its specifically tailored to killing the bastich, azumarill cant beat it cuz it quad resists aqua jet (not even mentioning sun) which is the only way azu can outspeed it, rough play’s slow so ww will kill it with hurricane 7 times out of 10, and rn i guess one of the main problems is that sun teams that were meant to weaken water types make ww strong af, you can’t lower its dmg on switch in cuz intimidate only lower normal attack, and although it was at manageable levels in rain teams, sun takes it to a whole other level thanks to flamethrower which by itself isn’t even all that weak as a fire move.
Now, in my opinion, the amount of effort needed to outplay a strat should equal the amount of effort needed to setup the strat, if it costs you a slot on your team for a threat that you might not face, its probably not worth it, but if you DO face it, your team’s screwed. It takes one button to setup WW and just straight up shred a team

 

[SunCooled]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632818083516522496

big stall & flinchinator are on the prowl again
pex coming for top 5 in usage once again watch out folks


Memes aside, running into Sun 7-8 times in a row is starting to get tiresome. I'm pro-ban as long as we bring it back with the expanded dex.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

It is relevant because it means that most Wake's teams have a very similar structure and how others have pointed out, in pratice sun is very inconsistent as is very reliant on the meta trends to be effective. Chi-yu for example was OP in any team and that allowed Nemo to have more options to deal with the little counterplay it had, while wake's outside sun is very limited and overall worst to others special attackers, mainly because of its limited movepool and the meh speed tier and lack of natural resistence to sucker punch.
Also, Torkoal is a dead weight most of the time and even can be abused by common stuff like Garg or sub Pult.

Sun isn't inconsistent at all with Wake in the team. There's a reason it's considered broken in Sun, it's extremely difficult to check the SpA variant of Wake, and Wake checks aren't difficult to take care of.

You are mixing up Sun teams pre and post Wake. They are absolutely not comparable.

 

[Ox the Fox]

I've been playing a lot of this meta recently and I'll be voting do no ban for Walking Wake.

First wanna shoutout Vert and VigilanteV8 posts, as I thought they were well written posts that I largely agree with. My personal argument largely comes down to it being overly reliant on the sun, it having numerous ways of adapting to it, and it simply not being as centralizing as many pro-ban arguments make it out to be.

For me, the strongest reason to keep it in the tier is how reliant on sun it is. Without the additional protosynthesis boost it either misses the power needed to really pack a punch, or the speed needed to get past quicker offense teams. I’ve seen people try booster energy + agility on HO but its never too hard to deal with – either being easily walled by something like spdf pex or slowking, or it gets revenged by priority (assuming it can even set up – most players recognize what set it’ll be on HO and don’t allow it). I’ve also seen people try sets like sub roar or choice on non-sun, but again, it’s extremely underwhelming. I recognize that there is room for players to continue to adapt and try different sets off of sun, but I don’t see it likely any of them become overbearing.

My second reason for keeping it in the tier is that there are numerous ways of adapting to it that don’t make WW feel overly centralizing. I don’t want to get too far into the specific mons since Vert already laid out a good number, but some of my favorites are spdf pex, slowking, spdf tect rotom, and clodsire. None of these are things are mons I couldn’t justify running on a team without WW in the tier, and they all deal with it fairly easily, especially when you pair it with a protect mon. This is, of course, assuming it’s running a choiced set, although people like Ausma have pointed out other sets such as sub e belt 3 attacks. I’ve found anything that isn’t choiced specs to be very underwhelming in practice, as it becomes far easier to pivot around due to the weakened power.

One of the arguments I’ve seen against using the mons listed above for WW is that tera dragon specs draco meteor completely blows the defensive answers back. And while this is certainly true, I don’t think it’s as egregious of a problem as people make it out to be. For one, it uses up your tera early which is the single most important skill to have in SV – tera management. Secondly, you can use your own defensive fairy tera (which most teams should be running anyways) that makes pivoting around it so much easier. A lot of these mons are naturally good as a fairy type, which gives you a huge advantage in the tera management game.

I understand why people don’t want a seemingly large meta shift in the midst of three important tournaments, but I simply don’t think it’s impact is too large on the meta. I certainly think it's a top tier mon, eventually settling around A+/S, but I don't see it as banworthy in the current meta.

 

[CoralReaper707]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1632818083516522496

big stall & flinchinator are on the prowl again
pex coming for top 5 in usage once again watch out folks


Memes aside, running into Sun 7-8 times in a row is starting to get tiresome. I'm pro-ban as long as we bring it back with the expanded dex.

This

 

[tommytt22]

I dont like walking wake. I dont like its design. I dont like playing with it and I dont like playing against it. Does that make it broken? nope. Initially i was having trouble beating it where I'd be forced to sack something to bring in a check, it would switch out and the cycle would repeat until i lost. Now that im used to it, im not having so much trouble, and i havent even changed my team. My defensive pokemon that WW likes to switch into usually carry knock off which it really doesnt like. Heres the most common WW set vs a blissey with zero spdef investment. And i swear to god if people start saying blissey is a bad pokemon, this was OU/UU for 8 generations straight. hardly a niche choice.

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 219-258 (30.6 - 36.1%) -- 50.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Hydro Steam vs. 252 HP / 80+ SpD Protosynthesis Scream Tail in Sun: 165-195 (38 - 44.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

People running water absorb quagsire, what about tera fairy vaporeon? Tera fairy tatsugiri? Or what about a screamtail set that can thunderwave, wish off damage to stall sun and render it useless. just make sure you get a protosynthesis spdef boost.

Ultimately pokemon home is almost here and i can say with certainty that it wont be broken once tapu fini and all the other water absorb pokemon are running around. May as well get some practise dealing with it now because it wont be banned then.

 

[Return to Zero]

People running water absorb quagsire, what about tera fairy vaporeon? Tera fairy tatsugiri? Or what about a screamtail set that can thunderwave, wish off damage to stall sun and render it useless. just make sure you get a protosynthesis spdef boost.

Ultimately pokemon home is almost here and i can say with certainty that it wont be broken once tapu fini and all the other water absorb pokemon are running around. May as well get some practise dealing with it now because it wont be banned then.

The existence is niche lower tier counterpicks that are otherwise dead weight and outclassed in OU is not a solid argument for keeping something around. Neither is the idea that just because Home is coming out later and Wake will probably be fine afterwards, we should let it continue to be an overbearing presence in this metagame.

 

[tommytt22]

The existence is niche lower tier counterpicks that are otherwise dead weight and outclassed in OU is not a solid argument for keeping something around. Neither is the idea that just because Home is coming out later and Wake will probably be fine afterwards, we should let it continue to be an overbearing presence in this metagame.

how many times in previous generations did quagsire rise to OU to counter something and people considered that fine while using scream tail from UU is classed as "deadweight"? vaporeon is a niche pick sure but scream tail and blissey/chansey arent at all. How about chilly reception or eject button slowking into iron valiant as a counterplay? what about Sticky webs?? theres plenty of options people are just stubborn and dont want to adjust their playstyle or get creative in teambuilding

 

[Moyashi]

how many times in previous generations did quagsire rise to OU to counter something and people considered that fine while using scream tail from UU is classed as "deadweight"? vaporeon is a niche pick sure but scream tail and blissey/chansey arent at all. How about chilly reception or eject button slowking into iron valiant as a counterplay? what about Sticky webs?? theres plenty of options people are just stubborn and dont want to adjust their playstyle or get creative in teambuilding

The times Quag has been OU in past generations has been... What exactly? It's managed to have niches because of Unaware (or being able to check some stuff in gen4 if I recall), but i can't think of a time it's actually risen by usage. And if it did rise to OU purely to be a counter to something, then I'm fairly certain people WOULD have an issue with that as Quag in OU in past gens has been basically stall only. Scream Tail is a very difficult pokemon to build with because it's terribly passive and exploitable. Scream is the definition of niche and is more bordering on fringe. And Blissey/Chansey are even worse in this, occupying C and D rank respectively on the VR and being really... Not good. Outside stall anyways.

Your suggestion of eject button slowking into Valiant doesn't even work because the opponent can... Switch out. And now your item is wasted. And Slowking prefers boots so it isn't overwhelmed by hazards. And sticky webs? Seriously? The play style isn't even common let alone consistent, and sun has magic bounce hatterene to say no.

People who want to win (which is most people I assume) don't have an issue with adapting and building to answer new threats. Right now we don't have a particularly large selection of pokemon to pick from, and even less that can be considered a good answer to sun Wake.

 

[Return to Zero]

how many times in previous generations did quagsire rise to OU to counter something and people considered that fine while using scream tail from UU is classed as "deadweight"? vaporeon is a niche pick sure but scream tail and blissey/chansey arent at all. How about chilly reception or eject button slowking into iron valiant as a counterplay? what about Sticky webs?? theres plenty of options people are just stubborn and dont want to adjust their playstyle or get creative in teambuilding

Alright, I'll bite.

The only thing Scream Tail can do to Wake is null Draco Meteor and wait out sun turns, and maybe Thunder Wave if Wake doesn't switch out immediately. The only possible progress this can make against it is if there's rocks on the field to chip it or if it makes the braindead play of staying in to let you paralyze it. Additionally, it's pretty reliant on the boost from Protosynthesis to actually tank Wake's other hits, so once the sun wears off and Wake's Sp.Atk is exactly as high as it was before because these Wake sets run Specs, it's kinda out of options other than wish passing and hoping for the best.

Vaporeon is self-explanatory. The only possible function it can serve in OU is eat Hydro Steam, because everything else does every other role better. Hell, it's not even the best at that, since Clodsire exists. No matter what, running Vaporeon is a gigantic loss whose only benefit is giving you a great excuse to use when you have to forfeit.

Blissey is RU and Chansey is NU. These Pokemon only rise when there's an obnoxiously powerful special attacker running around and are completely outclassed at everything but taking special hits. Without Teleport and Toxic, these two are only capable of sitting there and clicking Softboiled until someone decides to switch out first. They could use Thunder Wave, but Wake is still perfectly capable of switching out the moment it sees either of them too.

Chilly Reception into Iron Valiant is a terrible idea. If sun is up (And Wake players are going to fiend for sun), Valiant is dependent on either Choice Scarf, which is bad and otherwise not helpful on it, or Booster Energy, which is a single use you have to commit to. Anything Wake does that isn't a Dragon move OHKOs Valiant, and Draco Meteor has good odds of OHKOing Slowking too. And of course, the opponent can just switch out the moment they see you do this.

There are exactly two Sticky Web users that can work in OU. Masquerain and Spidops (I see you SpidopsForNU). Both not only get clowned on by Torkoal, but also can have their webs spun away by it. Or the opponent can just not bring out Wake until they've cleared the webs.

I think I've demonstrated the point here. All of these options are either only good for taking hits and doing nothing in return, or are easily countered by the opponent simply choosing to fight you with any of Wake's five other teammates.

 

[DrPumpkinz]

Chilly Reception into Iron Valiant is a terrible idea. If sun is up (And Wake players are going to fiend for sun), Valiant is dependent on either Choice Scarf, which is bad and otherwise not helpful on it, or Booster Energy, which is a single use you have to commit to. Anything Wake does that isn't a Dragon move OHKOs Valiant, and Draco Meteor has good odds of OHKOing Slowking too. And of course, the opponent can just switch out the moment they see you do this.

Chilly Reception gets rid of the sun, and Slowking's slow speed means it's always going to pivot out after Walking Wake makes its move, so Iron Valiant doesn't have to risk getting hit with an attack on the switch.

 

[tommytt22]

The times Quag has been OU in past generations has been... What exactly? It's managed to have niches because of Unaware (or being able to check some stuff in gen4 if I recall), but i can't think of a time it's actually risen by usage. And if it did rise to OU purely to be a counter to something, then I'm fairly certain people WOULD have an issue with that as Quag in OU in past gens has been basically stall only. Scream Tail is a very difficult pokemon to build with because it's terribly passive and exploitable. Scream is the definition of niche and is more bordering on fringe. And Blissey/Chansey are even worse in this, occupying C and D rank respectively on the VR and being really... Not good. Outside stall anyways.

Your suggestion of eject button slowking into Valiant doesn't even work because the opponent can... Switch out. And now your item is wasted. And Slowking prefers boots so it isn't overwhelmed by hazards. And sticky webs? Seriously? The play style isn't even common let alone consistent, and sun has magic bounce hatterene to say no.

People who want to win (which is most people I assume) don't have an issue with adapting and building to answer new threats. Right now we don't have a particularly large selection of pokemon to pick from, and even less that can be considered a good answer to sun Wake.

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

I'm only showing calcs for proto speed since wake without a speed boost isnt hard to deal with at all. switch in, chilly reception to remove sun and away you go. this is assuming theyve read the play correctly and didnt hit hydro steam because if they do its like 25%. life orb variants dont 2hko either.

Alright, I'll bite.

The only thing Scream Tail can do to Wake is null Draco Meteor and wait out sun turns, and maybe Thunder Wave if Wake doesn't switch out immediately. The only possible progress this can make against it is if there's rocks on the field to chip it or if it makes the braindead play of staying in to let you paralyze it. Additionally, it's pretty reliant on the boost from Protosynthesis to actually tank Wake's other hits, so once the sun wears off and Wake's Sp.Atk is exactly as high as it was before because these Wake sets run Specs, it's kinda out of options other than wish passing and hoping for the best.

scream tail 2hko with dazzling gleam
24 SpA Scream Tail Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 150-176 (44.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and as stated above chilly reception removes sun

 

[Joseph Gomes]

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

I'm only showing calcs for proto speed since wake without a speed boost isnt hard to deal with at all. switch in, chilly reception to remove sun and away you go. this is assuming theyve read the play correctly and didnt hit hydro steam because if they do its like 25%. life orb variants dont 2hko either.



scream tail 2hko with dazzling gleam
24 SpA Scream Tail Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 150-176 (44.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and as stated above chilly reception removes sun

SpA Wake is arguably harder to deal with than Speed Boost Wake. Speed Wake has plenty of defensive checks, even in Sun. Idk why Speed Boost Wake is being used as default demo for Wake's power, Wake isn't even that scary as wallbreaker without SpA boost.

252 SpA Choice Specs Protosynthesis Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 407-483 (103.2 - 122.5%) -- guaranteed KO in 2 turns

Basically, Wake has different checks based on SpA or Speed Boost. And both can't be handled simultaneously in teambuilder.

 

[Return to Zero]

244 SpA Choice Specs Walking Wake Draco Meteor over 2 turns vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 313-370 (79.4 - 93.9%) -- not a KO

I'm only showing calcs for proto speed since wake without a speed boost isnt hard to deal with at all. switch in, chilly reception to remove sun and away you go. this is assuming theyve read the play correctly and didnt hit hydro steam because if they do its like 25%. life orb variants dont 2hko either.



scream tail 2hko with dazzling gleam
24 SpA Scream Tail Dazzling Gleam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Walking Wake: 150-176 (44.2 - 51.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and as stated above chilly reception removes sun

Okay I am a big enough man to admit that forgetting half of what Chilly Reception does is a major whoopsie poopsie fucky wucky on my part. That's fair.

Still have yet to see any sort of rebuttal to the "literally just switch out and try again later" strat though. Wake isn't obligated to stick around in these bad matchups where the worst they can do is 2HKO it, unless you've already gotten rid of everything else on the team that can do it better.

 

[Srn]

Yo ox love u just gonna respond to the part I disagree with the most

For me, the strongest reason to keep it in the tier is how reliant on sun it is. Without the additional protosynthesis boost it either misses the power needed to really pack a punch, or the speed needed to get past quicker offense teams. I’ve seen people try booster energy + agility on HO but its never too hard to deal with – either being easily walled by something like spdf pex or slowking, or it gets revenged by priority (assuming it can even set up – most players recognize what set it’ll be on HO and don’t allow it). I’ve also seen people try sets like sub roar or choice on non-sun, but again, it’s extremely underwhelming. I recognize that there is room for players to continue to adapt and try different sets off of sun, but I don’t see it likely any of them become overbearing.

My advanced observation Haki sure does work

Despite all this, the cost of running Ttar/Hippo was not high enough to balance Houndstone, so I likewise don't believe that the cost of running torkoal is high enough to balance WW (sun also has higher number and higher variety of abusers.) A direct comparison doesn't hold up bc the base power of Last Respects is ludicrous and WW is much more prediction reliant, but then again that's why we quickbanned houndstone and are suspecting WW.

To explain further, you are correct that WW relies on sun to be imo broken, but the burden WW puts on the teambuilder is the burden of WW under sun. To use another example, is mega swampert outside of rain in SM OU really an issue? Of course not, it is very reliant on rain. Despite that, every team needed an answer for mega swampert under the rain! I think that trying to fit answers to Proto Speed specs WW and Proto Sp.A Specs WW onto my teams is too much to ask for, and WW is thus overly centralizing.

 

[pika pal]

The only thing Scream Tail can do to Wake is null Draco Meteor and wait out sun turns, and maybe Thunder Wave if Wake doesn't switch out immediately. The only possible progress this can make against it is if there's rocks on the field to chip it or if it makes the braindead play of staying in to let you paralyze it. Additionally, it's pretty reliant on the boost from Protosynthesis to actually tank Wake's other hits, so once the sun wears off and Wake's Sp.Atk is exactly as high as it was before because these Wake sets run Specs, it's kinda out of options other than wish passing and hoping for the best.

While I don't disagree that Scream Tail is niche, I would note that the Sun going away doesn't really change the scenario of Speed Wake vs SpD Tail. Scream Tail being immune to Draco means the other two moves Wake would hit it with are Hydro Steam and Flamethrower, both of which lose a 50% Sun Boost compared to Scream Tail's 30% Protosynthesis boost. If anything Scream Tail is better in neutral Weather while its own Protosynthesis just shores it up against a harder hitting version, and theoretically its worst match-up is under Rain where Wake has boosted HS but neither has Protosynthesis.