Announcement np: SV OU Suspect Process, Round 3 - Sleepwalking

[Ox the Fox]

To explain further, you are correct that WW relies on sun to be imo broken, but the burden WW puts on the teambuilder is the burden of WW under sun. To use another example, is mega swampert outside of rain in SM OU really an issue? Of course not, it is very reliant on rain. Despite that, every team needed an answer for mega swampert under the rain! I think that trying to fit answers to Proto Speed specs WW and Proto Sp.A Specs WW onto my teams is too much to ask for, and WW is thus overly centralizing.

I should've worded my argument better, but I don't disagree with the statement that "the burden WW puts on the teambuilder is the burden of WW under sun." My first point is making the case that roaring moon is only good under the sun, although I should've explained how needing sun makes it far easier to play against. Not only does it force you to run a suboptimal mon in torkoal, but it also gives you extra counterplay by stalling out sun turns either through keeping up momentum, or smart defensive plays. The fact that you have this extra counterplay gives you a lot more leeway in the builder – as even if you don’t have a hard counter, you can be more creative in your in-game play/builder choices to outplay it.

 

[Offbrand Octillery]

I don't like responding to suspect discussions when I don't plan on actually participating in the suspect myself (which I don't, not only for a lack of time but also because I'm genuinely completely on the fence for the Pokemon being suspected), but the more I read this post, the more it annoys me. The whole point of this thread is to present arguments to convince people who are undecided to vote one way or another, and posts like this just don't do that. At a glance, this seems like an informed post (it even has calcs!) but when you actually read it and consider the points being made for more than a few seconds, you realize that it's pretty much completely pointless and tells you nothing that you couldn't figure out on your own by reading Walking Wake's Bulbapedia page. Let's take a closer look.



Well, first of all, Walking Wake doesn't resist Water/Dragon, it is in fact weak to Dragon. But I'll assume that's an honest mistake, that's not even really the problem here. The problem here is that precisely zero people who are capable of getting suspect reqs don't already know why Water/Dragon is good typing. This is going to be a common theme going forward.



Yes, it's good in both weathers. Literally anyone who takes a cursory look at its movepool and abilities can figure that out on their own; you'll notice the group of people who can make suspect reqs is entirely contained within that former group. You also say that counters to Wake don't want to switch in on boosted Hydro Steams; judging by this and the calcs you provide, you seem to be confusing checks with counters. Again, not really the main issue here but just something I wanted to point out.

Iron Valiant does not counter Walking Wake. Iron Valiant checks Walking Wake. In most circumstances, if Valiant is given a free switch, it will beat Wake, however, it cannot safely switch in on Wake. This makes it a check, not a counter. Blissey would be an example of a counter to Wake; barring some absurd set like RestTalk or Dragon Dance, Blissey can switch into anything Wake carries and cripple it with Thunder Wave or chip it down with Seismic Toss.

Also OHKOing something with 74/60 special bulk is not exactly an impressive calc.



I feel like this is the closest you get to making a salient point and I still hate it because you still dropped the ball. Maybe just a personal pet peeve of mine but the fact that it's a Paradox Pokemon is completely irrelevant, don't even bring it up. It's the same thing as bringing up that a Pokemon is a legendary or an ultra beast or whatever; a complete non-sequitur. Competitively that means nothing. 109 base Speed and 125 base Sp. Atk aren't exactly all that impressive on their own either; if stats like that make it banworthy, when are we suspecting Iron Moth, or Gengar? Do you really think there's a single person who sat down, read your post, and said "oh shit, I didn't realize Wake has 125 base Sp. Atk", then goes on to make suspect reqs and vote ban because of that?

It's true that this Pokemon is difficult to outspeed when it's getting a Speed boost from Protosynthesis (and this is why I say this is the closest you've come to making an actual point; the fact that this Pokemon has little reliable offensive counterplay when in its element is something that should be emphasized in any pro-ban argument), but right at the beginning of this paragraph you seem to indicate that you're talking about using it outside of weather teams, an observation further supported by you mentioning Booster Energy (a pointless item if you're providing it with sun support) at the end of the paragraph. It's also true that offensive teams often need to either play very aggressively or sac something to revengekill Walking Wake... in the sun.

Another problem is that you're way too vague here. You say few things outspeed it and you often need to sac something to get a revengekiller in, but is not that true of a ton of other offensive Pokemon as well? It certainly is for Iron Valiant, Dragonite, Volcarona, Roaring Moon... What sets Wake apart from these Pokemon?



This is, unfortunately, the truth. There are a ton of frankly bad arguments being thrown around in this thread, this is just the one that caught the worst of my ire. While there have been some good posts that discuss more subtle topics like Wake's impact on the metagame, counterplay (or a perceived lack thereof) to Wake, whether Wake itself is banworthy or just a symptom of a larger problem, and how one goes about playing around Wake and the difficulties thereof, there has also been a ton of people saying "Walking Wake should be banned because it has good stats and typing" or similarly flaccid arguments.

When you post in suspect threads, please don't just list random facts about the Pokemon that you would get from reading its Smogon analysis or Bulbapedia page or whatever. Literally every single person who's going to participate in the suspect already knows this information. Most of that information is included in the OP of the suspect thread. Everyone has at least a basic idea of what this Pokemon does; nobody needs to know that it's kind of scary in the sun, or that it has good typing. Explain why that's a problem. Explain the impact Wake has had on the metagame and why that's a bad thing. Explain why the counterplay to Wake isn't sufficient (you need to be more specific than saying not much outspeeds it and it OHKO's a Pokemon with 74/60 special bulk). If you really want to go all in, grab some replays from the higher ladder or tour games to support your arguments. For most suspects usage statistics can have some value as well; this is unfortunately not the case with Wake as it was suspected so quickly after its release.

It's frankly patronizing to throw obvious information at us like we didn't already know that or like it's going to convince anyone one way or another. Precisely zero people on this website read a post like this, change their mind because of it, and then go on to make suspect reqs.

If you don't have anything nice to say about what I say in a post, then don't say anything. Like you said yourself, nobody reads these posts, so don't respond to it in disgusting detail on why you hate it so much.

 

[Magcargo]

I will be voting DNB.

Wake is only (arguably) an Uber worthy threat under Sun and while the playstyle is strong, I believe it has many limitations that make it feel less threatening in practice. Drought only last 8 turns and Wake will have a difficult time switching in directly since it takes a boatload from common anti-leads against Torkoal, which means that it will have less time to abuse its ridiculous power than it likes. In many of my suspect games, I typically anti-lead with either Glimmora or Breloom and that would put the Wake user on the back foot since many of their team structures struggled with switching into these Pokemon. Compounding this issue is the fact that Torkoal itself does not have good longevity due to its SR weakness and lack of Leftovers recovery and is largely a dead slot when Sun is active, as switching in to do something like Spin hazards or set up Rocks is just compromising its ability to setup Sun later + waste turns from the actual threatening abusers to get something done. Overall, ensuring that Wake gets the maximum mileage out of Sun Turns can be difficult and was something I noticed many players struggled with when playing.

Wake itself can be scary when it switches into the field due to its enormous power or speed, but it typically doesn't have both unless it runs Agility + Proto (which I cannot speak much about due to only facing it a handful of times). If its proto Special Attack, it is prone to being revenge killed by the many faster Pokemon in the tier such as Dragapult, Iron Valiant, Scarf Gholdengo, etc or priority users such as Kingambit and Breloom. This is especially bad because regardless of the decision the Walking Wake user makes here, they will be wasting Sun turns and compromising its ability to nuke later. Proto Speed has a better MU vs fast mons like Dragapult, but still runs into the same dilemma against priority attackers and doesn't pack the same jaw dropping power that makes Proto SpA so daunting to face, giving resist a bit more room to play around it, which can put it in the same dilemma as Proto SpA after grabbing a KO. In essence, I do not believe that playing around Walking Wake is all that different from playing around other strong weather abusers like Floatzel or Scovillan and while strong, I believe that it is manageable to deal with.

My position could change in the future. I haven't used Walking Wake for myself yet + primarily stole used an offensive team that had many outs vs Wake despite not having any hard switch-ins, so perhaps the issues Wake has that I am describing are overexaggerated or Wake could be much more difficult for other team styles to handle. Furthermore, many of the Walking Wakes I faced were Specs or Life Orb, both of which made it quite exploitable in certain MUs.

 

[LoseToRU?]

I've skimmed the forum, played enough games against it and with it, and will be getting reqs this weekend.

Leaning towards voting no ban.

1) Sun is pretty ass. Maybe because I don't leave home w/o Kingambit but I feel like I have about a 75% win rate vs sun.
(GF should really nerf the cringe shit of boosting fire and water moves in sun and rain, and just keep the speed abilities and weakening their types in opposite weather.)

2) It's a dragon. You have to slot that into your team. Role compression is obviously huge and WW is fighting against some really good dragons out there for a spot on your team. It does a have a niche over most other dragons in the tier as being a special attacker- but it's a dragon, one less mon you have to switch in vs Val. But y'know who also has 125 spa?

Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP is an insane set that's slept on. It can fire off multiple dracos without becoming set up bait.
It doesn't have the speed, but it might be better vs more teams than WW, depending on your composition. Basically, I'm saying spa dragons are something a meta can prep for and deal with, and have been doing since DragMag. If you don't have a switch in for draco meteor, or cant take advantage of it in any way and get back momentum, then that's on your team and you as a player.

3) WW usually has to tera. Mons that have to tera are either the best in the tier, such as Nite, Volc, Gargan, or a liability for your team. The best teams right now are rarely tera'ing a random mon at a random time. It's usually a dedicated user such as Gargan, with a backup dedicated user for niche situations. So if a mon is A+ material when it teras, but B when it doesn't, then you have to be careful just slapping that mon on your team. Meaning, if you're going to use WW, then you have to build around the fact that it most likely has to be your tera mon in 80% of battles. Insofar as much as ppl are using WW right now, as a nuke. I could see a sub, roar variant being able to be great without ever needing to tera, but that leaves me to my next point.

4) It's much too soon for this. Of course a mon is going to seem OP in the first week or two of being out, especially when it's dropped in the middle of a meta literally overnight. If the mon is broken, then fine, but we literally don't have enough time to truly figure that out. It's not something stupidly obvious with 150spa 120speed; its a fast Hydreigon. It outclasses Hydre on some level, sure, but ppl who posted about their precious Garg or Pex taking 80% from specs draco, are lucky Hydre didnt sub up, np, and do that to their entire team.
-
WW might be broken, but it doesn't seem so at this moment to me. It was a pain in the ass for a few days, but something as simple as changing my Roaring Moon from attack booster energy to speed boosting turned the tides. That's how adapting works.

When I say WW might be broken, I don't mean in any capacity as I'm currently seeing.
However, it may be broken on rain. Thank god the rain players have an average IQ of a housecat, but other players will realize what I have. On rain, not sun, this thing will be a monster. The best spa mon rain has rn is golduck. The min these kids realize WW is right there, and that hydro does more in the rain than steam does in sun, it may need a suspect then, but not now.

This suspect was rushed and seems to be very knee jerk.
This entire meta will be invalid and a relic in a few weeks anyway.
WW will be dropped right back into Home meta to test, so this is kinda pointless.

 

[CoralReaper707]

I've skimmed the forum, played enough games against it and with it, and will be getting reqs this weekend.

Leaning towards voting no ban.

1) Sun is pretty ass. Maybe because I don't leave home w/o Kingambit but I feel like I have about a 75% win rate vs sun.
(GF should really nerf the cringe shit of boosting fire and water moves in sun and rain, and just keep the speed abilities and weakening their types in opposite weather.)

2) It's a dragon. You have to slot that into your team. Role compression is obviously huge and WW is fighting against some really good dragons out there for a spot on your team. It does a have a niche over most other dragons in the tier as being a special attacker- but it's a dragon, one less mon you have to switch in vs Val. But y'know who also has 125 spa?
View attachment 498669
Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP is an insane set that's slept on. It can fire off multiple dracos without becoming set up bait.
It doesn't have the speed, but it might be better vs more teams than WW, depending on your composition. Basically, I'm saying spa dragons are something a meta can prep for and deal with, and have been doing since DragMag. If you don't have a switch in for draco meteor, or cant take advantage of it in any way and get back momentum, then that's on your team and you as a player.

3) WW usually has to tera. Mons that have to tera are either the best in the tier, such as Nite, Volc, Gargan, or a liability for your team. The best teams right now are rarely tera'ing a random mon at a random time. It's usually a dedicated user such as Gargan, with a backup dedicated user for niche situations. So if a mon is A+ material when it teras, but B when it doesn't, then you have to be careful just slapping that mon on your team. Meaning, if you're going to use WW, then you have to build around the fact that it most likely has to be your tera mon in 80% of battles. Insofar as much as ppl are using WW right now, as a nuke. I could see a sub, roar variant being able to be great without ever needing to tera, but that leaves me to my next point.

4) It's much too soon for this. Of course a mon is going to seem OP in the first week or two of being out, especially when it's dropped in the middle of a meta literally overnight. If the mon is broken, then fine, but we literally don't have enough time to truly figure that out. It's not something stupidly obvious with 150spa 120speed; its a fast Hydreigon. It outclasses Hydre on some level, sure, but ppl who posted about their precious Garg or Pex taking 80% from specs draco, are lucky Hydre didnt sub up, np, and do that to their entire team.
-
WW might be broken, but it doesn't seem so at this moment to me. It was a pain in the ass for a few days, but something as simple as changing my Roaring Moon from attack booster energy to speed boosting turned the tides. That's how adapting works.

When I say WW might be broken, I don't mean in any capacity as I'm currently seeing.
However, it may be broken on rain. Thank god the rain players have an average IQ of a housecat, but other players will realize what I have. On rain, not sun, this thing will be a monster. The best spa mon rain has rn is golduck. The min these kids realize WW is right there, and that hydro does more in the rain than steam does in sun, it may need a suspect then, but not now.

This suspect was rushed and seems to be very knee jerk.
This entire meta will be invalid and a relic in a few weeks anyway.
WW will be dropped right back into Home meta to test, so this is kinda pointless.

Reminder that Walking Wake doesn't need tera in order to go crazy. If Tera becomes less healthy in Gen 9's life span, we'll sure as hell suspect test that. With that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Pokemon that were crazy before home dropped remained crazy, like Chien-Pao or Chi-yu. It is possible Walking Wake would continue to wreak havoc even when Heatran comes around, but for now, it's not healthy.

 

[Dhrabb]

I got reqs a few days ago and honestly I haven't seen many Wakes during or since then. Sure, it's still common, but I feel it's usage has dropped from the near omnipresence it had upon release.

I think the main reason for this is that Wake is very scary in the builder, but in game, you can dance around it with good play. Quite a few people have mentioned checks/counters in the form of Clod, Slowking, Azu, Pex etc. but even outside that something like Spdef Rotom wash (which is a pretty good set rn imo), Dragapult, Roaring Moon, Tera fairy Dirge, Kingambit can help you play around it. I've hardly struggled with it personally, as pivoting around and threatening it with the mons I mentioned isn't terribly difficult in an offensive team.

I was expecting to lean towards ban after getting reqs, but the lack of Wakes I've been facing (don't get me wrong, it's still pretty common to run into, just not to the point I expected) and the relative lack of difficulty I've had facing it makes me want to vote No Ban. My choice might change by the 17th though, who knows what the ladder has in store.

 

[LoseToRU?]

Reminder that Walking Wake doesn't need tera in order to go crazy. If Tera becomes less healthy in Gen 9's life span, we'll sure as hell suspect test that. With that being said, I wouldn't be surprised if Pokemon that were crazy before home dropped remained crazy, like Chien-Pao or Chi-yu. It is possible Walking Wake would continue to wreak havoc even when Heatran comes around, but for now, it's not healthy.

Oh I thought you were just gonna laugh react my post as if that's an argument lol

But yeah essentially, I just disagree with your point that "WW doesn't need tera in order to go crazy".
WW has less spa than quite a few mons that are totally fine in the meta.

A good comparison would be Iron Moth. More spa, more speed, better coverage.
Moth is also not a one-trick pony like WW.

WW is a solid B+ spa mon with a solid typing and good coverage. We can handle that.
It's an A+ mon when it teras and has sun/rain support.
We can also handle that.

 

[Pais]

Since I'm spending recently a lot of time in high ladder + I got reqs too as well I want to say why I'll vote DO NOT BAN and why you should all try to consider the idea of voting do not ban.

The first thing is that I find really absurd and insane that the council or whoever had the idea of suspecting Walking Wake spent literally three months to figure out that Annihilape, Chi yu, Espathra and Chien Pao were broken but less than a week for Walking Meme.
The second thing is that removing a good wallbreaker from the tier means having more games centralized from broken Garganacl and also means that playstyles like stall that are getting day by day more popular in ladder and probably also in tour will be more broken.
Walking Wake is only good in weather based teams, especially sun. The thing is that all the advantage you gain offensively is lost defensively. Once you basically drop a hydro steam or a dmeteor (I won't assume other movesets outside specs/scarf viable, sorry, just my opinion) you give to your opponent a huge chance to statup and so potentially to lose a game.
We accepted to play a metagame with lolTera (me not really!) and now we pretend to have the 100% perfect counter to every threat we have? pls. Also there are more flexible wallbreakers that work in more than 1 archetype/playstyle who are way more centralizing (Valiant, Pult, VOLCARONA...) and the real problem of the meta is Walking Wake? Walking Wake is surely good and can win some game, but is 100% overrated by people who refused to adapt or did not even try to adapt, and I have the impression people are adapting already to sunny teams (lmao even hail and sand are better weather-playstyle, yes!). Community is asking from months a suspect of Garganacl but the priority seems to be Walking Mid and that sounds so crazy at least for me. Also prob in one month there is the chance to have Pokemon Home, so I find the timing really wrong too and if we really wanted a stable meta for tournaments and other stuff this mon should have quickbanned for some week and then suspect tested later to be unbanned... anyway this is just my opinion. Then probably it's just me that I won't vote ban to any mon if we don't have first Garg banned. You basically think it's fine to run shitty c.cloack / sub spam in every team to adapt to this single mon and then you are the same ones who refuse to TRY to find both offensive or defensive answers to a mon that is basically unviable outside sun/rain and without specs/scarf moveset? Please no.

 

[JunkoAJ]

The first thing is that I find really absurd and insane that the council or whoever had the idea of suspecting Walking Wake spent literally three months to figure out that Annihilape, Chi yu, Espathra and Chien Pao were broken but less than a week for Walking Meme.

Not sure this point makes sense

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1631372847791652865

Finch has posted this before but at what point did you want them to ban those 4 mons? There was way too much going on at literally all times - this point between Wake coming out and now is the quietest period, so it makes sense they were able to start this suspect quickly.

Also there are more flexible wallbreakers that work in more than 1 archetype/playstyle who are way more centralizing (Valiant, Pult, VOLCARONA...) and the real problem of the meta is Walking Wake?

I'm not sure I've even seen many people worry about Valiant or Pult and while people have been complaining about Volcarona quite a bit recently, the tiering survey showed that it didn't get nearly enough support for a QB or suspect.

While I do think (as I've said before) that Walking Wake is somewhat more manageable than the rest of the bans so far, I don't think these points really contribute to your overall post of why WW shouldn't be banned.

 

[1LDK]

I like how theres the constant debate about the Garganacl/WW debate, yet nobody is using the "broken checks broken" argument because one side thinks the other is broken, a funny example of trivalism if you ask me. If I was in charge I would just banned the 2 so now nobody is happy and its fair lmao.

But people are trying to adapt to ir by spamming Ttar and Slowking, bulky walls and choice baits are seeing more often and even if WW commits to tera then its not the end of the world due to tera as an influencial factor in games

Im honeslty on the fence and im probably not gonna even try to get reqs this time, but it seems like we CAN adapt to this thing, unlike the other shitty mons like cheems poo and pisson Yu

 

[Mishra]

I would say so in the current metagame, Walking Wake generally is getting OHKO against neutral hits in my experiences.

Maybe at +2 from something like Iron Valiant, but those are pretty respectable defenses for an offensive threat.

 

[Finchinator]

spent literally three months to figure out that Annihilape, Chi yu, Espathra and Chien Pao

We have had more tiering action in the last four months (almost entirely backed by community data) than at any point prior in Smogon history. I do not know what more you can possibly want. We are volunteers and I have dedicated hundreds of hours of time into this with just about everything backed by community data. The fact that you are complaining about this of all things in a thread unrelated to all of these specific Pokemon is silly.

if we really wanted a stable meta for tournaments and other stuff this mon should have quickbanned for some week and then suspect tested later to be unbanned...

Yes, I agree with this. Unfortunately, the support from others were not there to quickban, but it was unanimous to suspect if it remained.

Personally, I believe a Volcarona (or even Garganacl) suspect and this being quickbanned and tried later would have been best, but obviously that was not feasible given how others voted.

I don’t really care if you like the council or not and you’re entitled to any stance you would like on Walking Wake, but get the hell out of here with this nonsense about our timeline.

Once you basically drop a hydro steam or a dmeteor (I won't assume other movesets outside specs/scarf viable, sorry, just my opinion) you give to your opponent a huge chance to statup

I also want to state that I do not think this is fair. Locking into Draco Meteor can absolutely be abused, but there are a lot of other sets on this and I do not feel scarf is even good. Specs may be the most consistent, but Orb and Booster Energy are still quite good, with the latter making weather far less necessary as well.

 

[Pais]

We have had more tiering action in the last four months (almost entirely backed by community data) than at any point prior in Smogon history. I do not know what more you can possibly want. We are volunteers and I have dedicated hundreds of hours of time into this with just about everything backed by community data. The fact that you are complaining about this of all things in a thread unrelated to all of these specific Pokemon is silly.

Yes, I agree with this. Unfortunately, the support from others were not there to quickban, but it was unanimous to suspect if it remained.

Personally, I believe a Volcarona (or even Garganacl) suspect and this being quickbanned and tried later would have been best, but obviously that was not feasible given how others voted.

I don’t really care if you like the council or not and you’re entitled to any stance you would like on Walking Wake, but get the hell out of here with this nonsense about our timeline.

I also want to state that I do not think this is fair. Locking into Draco Meteor can absolutely be abused, but there are a lot of other sets on this and I do not feel scarf is even good. Specs may be the most consistent, but Orb and Booster Energy are still quite good, with the latter making weather far less necessary as well.

1) The fact you all are volunteers does not mean that I can't express a honest opinion, and this does not mean that you or whoever is in charge of the tier should not accept some criticism or some honest review from who play the tier like you. I don't think that sounds silly.
2) If I don't enjoy some choice of the council =/= I don't like the council, I enjoy some of the people who run the tier and also I don't think saying that my thesis are no-sense is some solid counter-argoument. This is just my opinion and it's not meant to be an attack or something else.
3) Draco Meteor can be abused, but in this meta you have virtually with tera at least 1 fairy type per team who can click substitute or some strong af statup-move that can do 6-0 to every sun. Also the Draco Meteor drop of spatk is something you should consider, Walking Wake alone can't break well built teams.

At the end my thesis on the no-ban are based on my personal experience of playing in the ladder.

 

[Finchinator]

1) The fact you all are volunteers does not mean that I can't express a honest opinion, and this does not mean that you or whoever is in charge of the tier should not accept some criticism or some honest review from who play the tier like you. I don't think that sounds silly

Criticism is great and we should all be open to improving — we received plenty last generation and that’s why surveys are so prominent this time around, for example. I think there is still a lot of room to improve, too, and I personally want a bigger council with more diverse view points in the future. We have come a long way from the council of years back that hardly acted and never consulted the public, but there’s still a long way to go as well.

But your implication that tiering needs to go quicker than it did the last few months is an impossible suggestion unless you change the whole tiering policy, which obviously is not an OU specific issue.

There has been no time to do more and any bans beyond this would’ve been done without sufficient support, which is an abuse of power.

 

[Pais]

[...]

I won't answer anymore because I don't really think this conversation is leading anywhere but as you said there is room to improve (ops I said that too in my post if only you had read carefully... but it's ok) and I just wanted to shed light on some choice that at least in my opinion looked weird, nothing more and nothing less.
Also, this does not change the fact that I didn't went off topic since I explained why WW does not deserve a ban.

 

[ant4456]

I

I've skimmed the forum, played enough games against it and with it, and will be getting reqs this weekend.

Leaning towards voting no ban.

1) Sun is pretty ass. Maybe because I don't leave home w/o Kingambit but I feel like I have about a 75% win rate vs sun.
(GF should really nerf the cringe shit of boosting fire and water moves in sun and rain, and just keep the speed abilities and weakening their types in opposite weather.)

2) It's a dragon. You have to slot that into your team. Role compression is obviously huge and WW is fighting against some really good dragons out there for a spot on your team. It does a have a niche over most other dragons in the tier as being a special attacker- but it's a dragon, one less mon you have to switch in vs Val. But y'know who also has 125 spa?
View attachment 498669
Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP is an insane set that's slept on. It can fire off multiple dracos without becoming set up bait.
It doesn't have the speed, but it might be better vs more teams than WW, depending on your composition. Basically, I'm saying spa dragons are something a meta can prep for and deal with, and have been doing since DragMag. If you don't have a switch in for draco meteor, or cant take advantage of it in any way and get back momentum, then that's on your team and you as a player.

3) WW usually has to tera. Mons that have to tera are either the best in the tier, such as Nite, Volc, Gargan, or a liability for your team. The best teams right now are rarely tera'ing a random mon at a random time. It's usually a dedicated user such as Gargan, with a backup dedicated user for niche situations. So if a mon is A+ material when it teras, but B when it doesn't, then you have to be careful just slapping that mon on your team. Meaning, if you're going to use WW, then you have to build around the fact that it most likely has to be your tera mon in 80% of battles. Insofar as much as ppl are using WW right now, as a nuke. I could see a sub, roar variant being able to be great without ever needing to tera, but that leaves me to my next point.

4) It's much too soon for this. Of course a mon is going to seem OP in the first week or two of being out, especially when it's dropped in the middle of a meta literally overnight. If the mon is broken, then fine, but we literally don't have enough time to truly figure that out. It's not something stupidly obvious with 150spa 120speed; its a fast Hydreigon. It outclasses Hydre on some level, sure, but ppl who posted about their precious Garg or Pex taking 80% from specs draco, are lucky Hydre didnt sub up, np, and do that to their entire team.
-
WW might be broken, but it doesn't seem so at this moment to me. It was a pain in the ass for a few days, but something as simple as changing my Roaring Moon from attack booster energy to speed boosting turned the tides. That's how adapting works.

When I say WW might be broken, I don't mean in any capacity as I'm currently seeing.
However, it may be broken on rain. Thank god the rain players have an average IQ of a housecat, but other players will realize what I have. On rain, not sun, this thing will be a monster. The best spa mon rain has rn is golduck. The min these kids realize WW is right there, and that hydro does more in the rain than steam does in sun, it may need a suspect then, but not now.

This suspect was rushed and seems to be very knee jerk.
This entire meta will be invalid and a relic in a few weeks anyway.
WW will be dropped right back into Home meta to test, so this is kinda pointless.

I pretty much agree, though remember y'all, Suspect Tests are just that- Suspect, a chance to put any thoughts of something being broken to the test. If anything, I'm more baffled at some other Pokemon that were suspected rather than quickbanned, than Walking Wake being suspected.

Walking Wake seems pretty good, but as someone who has been reading the forum (and hasn't been playing much of Smogon in general these last two weeks), no argument here has totally convinced me that it is broken.

I did like some posts arguing it is broken, mostly to their quality, and because I think both sides have some good posts, but I think the D-N-B posts so far are more compelling.

obviously my take doesn't matter because I am not participating, but bah, public forum

 

[LoseToRU?]

Criticism is great and we should all be open to improving — we received plenty last generation and that’s why surveys are so prominent this time around, for example. I think there is still a lot of room to improve, too, and I personally want a bigger council with more diverse view points in the future. We have come a long way from the council of years back that hardly acted and never consulted the public, but there’s still a long way to go as well.

But your implication that tiering needs to go quicker than it did the last few months is an impossible suggestion unless you change the whole tiering policy, which obviously is not an OU specific issue.View attachment 498704
There has been no time to do more and any bans beyond this would’ve been done without sufficient support, which is an abuse of power.

I'm just replying to say, personally, I'd like a smaller council or at least not see it grow any more.
We appreciate the contrast between this gen and gen 7 for example, where it felt like council was asleep at the wheel sometimes.
Gen 8 was a little messy w suspects and lack of QB but it was a major improvement.
Gen 9 we realize y'all are doing the best you can.

I just don't want to see it go too far in the other direction.
I know it's important that every voice is heard but at some point the council needs to act without so much bloated bureaucracy.
It's a fine line between abuse of power and doing what's best for the community; I have no idea how to define that line but essentially in the next months there will be situations where we could waste weeks on needless suspects because 2-3 council members don't really have enough foresight or game knowledge to feel when a mon is broken. (Not saying they do just hypothetical)

Basically, I think WW is fine, and you may have some confirmation bias off your initial reaction and aren't looking at it objectively as you could, but with that said, if the council was just 3 members of tour proven, active on the ladder, high skilled players, and they voted QB on WW, I would disagree, but assume they know best, or at least live w it. As just a random player I'm ok with that. No issue being at the mercy of an oligarchy lol.

If ppl cry let them cry; the council's goals should be catering towards the highest level of play and focusing on having the most balanced and competitive meta possible, regardless of majority opinion.

The council has a lot of work in the coming weeks: is this mon broken, is this mon broken w tera, can this mon be checked by tera, ok now that X is banned, is Y still broken, would Z be ok now since we got X DLC mon, etc.
Just don't be afraid to really commit and do what needs to be done.

Obviously council is not infallible, Pao received no QB votes at one time, but Pao could have been a QB later on. That's all I'm saying.
I know it's a hot take to ask for less power to the average player, but clearly the pure democratic thing isn't perfect.
(Another thing that should be QB in the next few weeks I won't mention, but essentially with that thing in place, the council's job is made 10x harder when it comes to seeing what mons are broken. Just food for thought.)

 

[TheArchangle]

I want to preface this by saying that I don't have a stance yet on whether or not Wake is broken. Totally might be, might be ban worthy. It's very strong.

That being said, there's some bad reasoning in this thread that concerns me come time to vote. I see a lot of people making an argument along the lines of "Wake should be banned because everyone is running sun now."

A pokemon overcentralizing the metagame is certainly a problem. That being said, you have to ask what the cause of its current usage is. I think there just needs to be nuance brought to why everyone is playing with Wake. Yes, maybe it is overcentralizing the metagame. But it's also possible that people just want to use their shiny new toy that has a totally unique mechanic on sun that we've never seen before, and with the talks of banning it so soon after its release feel even more pressured to use Wake while they can.

Wake+sun's omnipresence alone is not a very convincing argument at this point.

 

[Moyashi]

2) It's a dragon. You have to slot that into your team. Role compression is obviously huge and WW is fighting against some really good dragons out there for a spot on your team. It does a have a niche over most other dragons in the tier as being a special attacker- but it's a dragon, one less mon you have to switch in vs Val. But y'know who also has 125 spa?

What is even the argument here? It's a dragon so one less mon to switch in vs Val? Valiant is not something that's short on defensive answers. It's top tier, but not something you're hurting your match up against by running a dragon.

Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP is an insane set that's slept on. It can fire off multiple dracos without becoming set up bait.
It doesn't have the speed, but it might be better vs more teams than WW, depending on your composition. Basically, I'm saying spa dragons are something a meta can prep for and deal with, and have been doing since DragMag. If you don't have a switch in for draco meteor, or cant take advantage of it in any way and get back momentum, then that's on your team and you as a player.

I'm amazed you can accuse Finch of having confirmation bias about WW here,

Basically, I think WW is fine, and you may have some confirmation bias off your initial reaction and aren't looking at it objectively as you could

Yet you make the claim that Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP Hydreigon is an insane set that's slept on, and even claim it might be better against more teams than WW, without having any real point of reference or examples to justify this claim. Not having a switch for Draco is one thing, because unboosted dracos are strong but manageable. It's specs boosted dracos coming from a 125 spatk dragon with a very nice speed tier, typing and bulk which makes it very challenging for bulky teams to handle without resorting to a few select passive options, or overly specific and niche picks like Screamtail or Blissey. There's a notable difference between Hydreigon and WW in this regard, especially as the latter gains incredible speed under sun, or even more power, thanks to Proto.

But yeah essentially, I just disagree with your point that "WW doesn't need tera in order to go crazy".
WW has less spa than quite a few mons that are totally fine in the meta.

A good comparison would be Iron Moth. More spa, more speed, better coverage.
Moth is also not a one-trick pony like WW.

WW is a solid B+ spa mon with a solid typing and good coverage. We can handle that.
It's an A+ mon when it teras and has sun/rain support.
We can also handle that.

This is such a flawed analysis of Wake. You can't compare it to Iron Moth, which has weaker stabs, worse typing and a significant rocks weakness which makes it more pressured to run boots. It also does not really have better coverage. Wake hits the tier perfectly between stabs and flamethrower. Wake does not have to tera to be dangerous. You can't just say "well it has less spatk than other mons who are fine" because that completely ignores differences of these pokemon.

Thank god the rain players have an average IQ of a housecat, but other players will realize what I have. On rain, not sun, this thing will be a monster. The best spa mon rain has rn is golduck. The min these kids realize WW is right there, and that hydro does more in the rain than steam does in sun, it may need a suspect then, but not now.

Do yourself a favor and get over yourself please. This "I'm so smart I see things others don't" attitude isn't helping your argument and just makes you look pompous.

That being said, there's some bad reasoning in this thread that concerns me come time to vote. I see a lot of people making an argument along the lines of "Wake should be banned because everyone is running sun now.

I'm also replying to this just because I feel something got lost in translation, but people aren't saying ban wake because sun is everywhere. People are saying ban wake because it's far too strong on sun.

 

[LoseToRU?]

What is even the argument here? It's a dragon so one less mon to switch in vs Val? Valiant is not something that's short on defensive answers. It's top tier, but not something you're hurting your match up against by running a dragon.

Whew.. good start. This sentence is very illustrating lmfao.
Uhm king the argument is literally self explanatory. There's a reason you don't have 4-5 flying mons, or electric mons on the same team... I don't think you know what role compression is whatsoever or much about building if you honestly just asked me what the argument was for choosing which dragon types to put on your team...

I'm amazed you can accuse Finch of having confirmation bias about WW here,

King I didn't want to put this out there but my good friend Finch thought Espa was literally just fine in the meta for almost 2 months.
I said Espa was broken early December.
One fine winter afternoon I was expressing in OU chat how broken it was, and my good friend Finch told me to stop crying, literally, "What are you crying about?"
Mans told me to stop crying over Espa and that it was fine.
Then launched a one-man crusade against it months later.
Dude is a human and doesn't seem immune to confirmation bias, sorry to amaze and baffle you.

Yet you make the claim that Sub/Taunt, NP, Draco, EP/DP Hydreigon is an insane set that's slept on, and even claim it might be better against more teams than WW, without having any real point of reference or examples to justify this claim. Not having a switch for Draco is one thing, because unboosted dracos are strong but manageable. It's specs boosted dracos coming from a 125 spatk dragon with a very nice speed tier, typing and bulk which makes it very challenging for bulky teams to handle without resorting to a few select passive options, or overly specific and niche picks like Screamtail or Blissey. There's a notable difference between Hydreigon and WW in this regard, especially as the latter gains incredible speed under sun, or even more power, thanks to Proto.

"sOuRcE?!?!" bro I just play. It was an anecdote lmao
The entire point was that for more than a decade we've had to find switch ins for draco meteor. Yes, even specs.

This is such a flawed analysis of Wake. You can't compare it to Iron Moth, which has weaker stabs, worse typing and a significant rocks weakness which makes it more pressured to run boots. It also does not really have better coverage. Wake hits the tier perfectly between stabs and flamethrower. Wake does not have to tera to be dangerous. You can't just say "well it has less spatk than other mons who are fine" because that completely ignores differences of these pokemon.

Ah yeah the weak Fire Blast.
The super weak Sludge Wave.
WW has dragon pulse, and the crippling draco.
It has the sun boosted move, but as stated, you have to run it in sun which has it's problems.
Fire and psn is an amazing offensive typing, especially in this meta.
It also does have better coverage, Psychic, Gleam, Energy Ball, Hurricane, Bug Buzz hit more for SE than dragon/water/fire.

Do yourself a favor and get over yourself please. This "I'm so smart I see things others don't" attitude isn't helping your argument and just makes you look pompous

Lmao its a meme how much I dislike the MU fish cringe that is rain, but this was a joke. I literally call myself an average player. There have been times I was the first to use something, or at least the first to use it successfully; however this wasn't about that and was simply a round about way to make fun of rain mains lol
-
If there's anything else you're really confused on lmk, but I don't want to be the one to teach you why being a dragon means it's fighting for roles against other dragons, or how hydro pump and fire blast have the same bp, or what mon has better coverage. I don't think I'm good enough to teach you how to play from the ground up.

 

[icy31]

not 100% sure if i'll get voting reqs in time, but if i do i'll be voting ban. what i consider grounds for a ban is whether or not WW is overcentralizing to the metagame, which i believe it to be so. you essentially have to pack at least one WW check in order to be moderately successful in this meta, and the few checks it does have are limited on their own. azumarill isn't exactly known for its defensive prowess, scream tail is a relatively niche mon outside of being a WW check and a screen setter, you have to blow a tera on clodsire + garganacl for them to be useful, other water absorb mons are just kinda deadweight* outside of being a WW check, etc etc

in much the same way that chien-pao was pushed over the top from being great to broken with tera, WW is pushed over the top from being great to broken with weather flexibility, and although there is counterplay, i don't exactly understand why people therefore treat this as a way to justify how WW isn't broken. 125 SpA and a speed stat that outclasses most mons in OU is still really good, and the fact that WW has tools to make it even better (shades of chien-pao tera dark cb crunch) makes it relatively clear that action needs to be taken

i also think that in a post-pokemon home OU, it's very likely that WW will be a lot more balanced but, as it stands, it's a very overcentralizing mon which is why i believe it should be banned

*in the sense that there's at least one mon out there that does their job much better should WW be out of the picture

 

[chimpact]

 

[Return to Zero]

I'm a little inclined to disagree with you solely on the grounds that a chunk of this post is going "Hey look how smart and right I am because I wanted Espathra banned before it was cool and Finch didn't, that means I am above such fallacies". That doesn't really mean anything beyond projecting more of that condescending air, but I digress. I wanna focus on this part.

Whew.. good start. This sentence is very illustrating lmfao.
Uhm king the argument is literally self explanatory. There's a reason you don't have 4-5 flying mons, or electric mons on the same team... I don't think you know what role compression is whatsoever or much about building if you honestly just asked me what the argument was for choosing which dragon types to put on your team...

Wake is a strong special attacker meant to come in and nuke with Draco Meteor and sun-boosted moves, and is strongest in the sun with a Speed Protosynthesis boost and Choice Specs. In particular, it's the only Water type to ever be stronger under sun. Which dragons is Wake competing with, exactly?

Baxcalibur is a physical wallbreaker that's a little slow but can either blow up with Choice Band or set up with Dragon Dance to sweep, and has good staying power since it can't be burned.
Dragapult is the fastest unboosted mon out right now, and its main strengths are that and the surprise factor of its multiple sets of Specs/Band/Sub, though it's generally meant to come in and out repeatedly over a game to get the odd attack off on a forced switch.
Dragonite is generally a setup sweeper with Extreme Speed and coverage moves and Multiscale to ensure at least one or two dances. but has some surprise factor with Choice Specs sets and its wide coverage options.
Garchomp is generally a bulky lead meant to get up hazards and spread them around with Dragon Tail, but has similar special attacking surprise capability.
Hydreigon is a slower special attacker that generally goes bulky and sets up with Substitute, Roost, or Nasty Plot with Tera and coverage to flip its bad matchups. Wake has the same Sp.Atk higher Speed almost the same defenses and a much better defensive typing so I better not hear about Scarf Hydreigon
Roaring Moon is a fast physical sweeper that typically runs Band to wallbreak or Booster Energy to get into position to dance and sweep, though with the distinction that it's faster than Bax and has good Sp.Def.

So, which of those is competing with Wake? Which one of them is rivaling it for the same team spot? Aside from all being dragons, they don't really have a whole lot in common. Two of them never use their Sp.Atk stat, and three of them only use it sometimes for mixups. Only Hydreigon really has the same potential to be a special wallbreaker. None of them have Water coverage. And, the one I'd say is the most important, Roaring Moon is the only other one to get some kind of benefit from being in the sun.

If you're building a sun team (the viability of which has been forced much higher by Wake's presence, but that's another thing), which dragon are you gonna run? If you decide to run both Wake and Moon, what is your opportunity cost there, given how much the two can accomplish just on their own? Hell, even if you're not building a sun team, what if you just want the fastest and strongest Draco Meteor you can switch to in a pinch? Dragapult for more out of the box speed, Wake for more power, right? So what if that means neither of them can switch in to Valiant, when you have three-four other teammates of your choice that potentially can?

This is the actual definition of role compression. Not spreading out weaknesses so you only have one Fairy-weak thing on your team at a time, but making sure that your team is doing as much as possible with as little as possible. Plus, if there's an offensive typing you can double up on reliably, it's Dragon, y'know?

 

[LoseToRU?]

I'm a little inclined to disagree with you solely on the grounds that a chunk of this post is going "Hey look how smart and right I am because I wanted Espathra banned before it was cool and Finch didn't, that means I am above such fallacies". That doesn't really mean anything beyond projecting more of that condescending air, but I digress. I wanna focus on this part.

Dude literally said, "How DARE you accuse him blah blah" and I expressed something that proves the contrary lmao. I never said I was above anything; don't put words in my mouth or focus on reading comprehension skills going forward. The only time I get condescending is when someone tries to pick apart my post in the most illogical, incorrect way possible. " This is such a flawed analysis of Wake." *proceeds to be wrong on every single point. I'm going to respond accordingly and keep that same energy they came at me with lol

Wake is a strong special attacker meant to come in and nuke with Draco Meteor and sun-boosted moves, and is strongest in the sun with a Speed Protosynthesis boost and Choice Specs. In particular, it's the only Water type to ever be stronger under sun. Which dragons is Wake competing with, exactly?

Baxcalibur is a physical wallbreaker that's a little slow but can either blow up with Choice Band or set up with Dragon Dance to sweep, and has good staying power since it can't be burned.
Dragapult is the fastest unboosted mon out right now, and its main strengths are that and the surprise factor of its multiple sets of Specs/Band/Sub, though it's generally meant to come in and out repeatedly over a game to get the odd attack off on a forced switch.
Dragonite is generally a setup sweeper with Extreme Speed and coverage moves and Multiscale to ensure at least one or two dances. but has some surprise factor with Choice Specs sets and its wide coverage options.
Garchomp is generally a bulky lead meant to get up hazards and spread them around with Dragon Tail, but has similar special attacking surprise capability.
Hydreigon is a slower special attacker that generally goes bulky and sets up with Substitute, Roost, or Nasty Plot with Tera and coverage to flip its bad matchups. Wake has the same Sp.Atk higher Speed almost the same defenses and a much better defensive typing so I better not hear about Scarf Hydreigon
Roaring Moon is a fast physical sweeper that typically runs Band to wallbreak or Booster Energy to get into position to dance and sweep, though with the distinction that it's faster than Bax and has good Sp.Def.

So, which of those is competing with Wake? Which one of them is rivaling it for the same team spot? Aside from all being dragons, they don't really have a whole lot in common. Two of them never use their Sp.Atk stat, and three of them only use it sometimes for mixups. Only Hydreigon really has the same potential to be a special wallbreaker. None of them have Water coverage. And, the one I'd say is the most important, Roaring Moon is the only other one to get some kind of benefit from being in the sun.

If you're building a sun team (the viability of which has been forced much higher by Wake's presence, but that's another thing), which dragon are you gonna run? If you decide to run both Wake and Moon, what is your opportunity cost there, given how much the two can accomplish just on their own? Hell, even if you're not building a sun team, what if you just want the fastest and strongest Draco Meteor you can switch to in a pinch? Dragapult for more out of the box speed, Wake for more power, right? So what if that means neither of them can switch in to Valiant, when you have three-four other teammates of your choice that potentially can?

This is the actual definition of role compression. Not spreading out weaknesses so you only have one Fairy-weak thing on your team at a time, but making sure that your team is doing as much as possible with as little as possible. Plus, if there's an offensive typing you can double up on reliably, it's Dragon, y'know?

I hope you didn't spend too much time on this weird analysis of obvious things we all knew already about the dragons in the meta and how WW and Roaring are good on sun...

It's a dragon, meaning, when choosing what special attacker you want on your team, it might not be wise to use WW when you have a Pult or Nite- it may be better to use Iron Moth, or Volcarona, so they can switch into Val.
Or the inverse, you want to use WW, so you might think about another phys attacker instead of Pult or Nite.

2 dragons can work forsure, but any more than that is most likely a gimmick team or not well built.
1 phys dragon and 1 spa dragon is fine but usually reserved for hyper offensive teams, such as Sun.
Any well built balance or balance-offensive team usually has 1 dragon.
Especially in this terrible meta w the terrible gimmick, where every other mon is tera fairy, you're one tera switch into fairy when u click the draco button from losing all momentum and giving up a free turn.
Being a dragon has it's pros and cons, and Draco has always been a unique situation. Yeah, it's a nuke, but after that it's almost dead weight, and locked into a spa dragon move. If you Draco my Pex into oblivion, then I just send in Val and CM up.

Choosing which mon complements your team and gets the most utility possible for a role in your team- that's the actual definition of role compression.

If you have Pult, and a Val comes in speed boosted, you're gonna wish you picked Iron Moth or Volc over WW. This is just an example, but just because the dragons we have all have different roles doesn't invalidate the fact that they're still dragon types.

WW isn't OP, it's centralizing. We have a barren pool of mons (less so thanks to mons being pushed out by terrible gimmick) so the centralization is more drastic.
Is it warping the meta? Yes.
Does that mean we should ban it? That's up to you as a player if you care enough to get reqs.

We can agree to disagree but you have the wrong impression of my post; I've posted multiple times how I was dead wrong about Pao being OP for until around the suspect where I ended up voting ban. I have no personal issue with literally anyone on this site.

 

[Prinz]

So here's the thing about Walking Wake: it's a total nightmare. It's like this unholy hybrid of a water dragon that has this insane move called Hydro Steam that basically vaporizes anything it touches in Sun weather (which, by the way, is like half the teams you see on the ladder these days). It just goes right through them and hits you for massive damage. And did I mention that Walking Wake also has Agility? Yeah, it does. So it can boost its already decent speed to ludicrous levels and outspeed pretty much everything except for a few select dragons that can barely scratch it anyway. And even if you do have one of those dragons on your team (which you probably don't), you still have to deal with all the other threats on the opponent's side that can wear down your precious dragon or force it out with some nasty move or status. So basically, you're screwed either way. Walking Wake is like this unstoppable force of nature that dominates and warps the entire metagame around itself and makes every match a coin flip on whether you have the right counter or not (which you probably don't). And that, my friends, is why Walking Wake is broken as hell and needs to be banned ASAP.