Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 11: DNA | Deoxys-Attack Banned

[Actuarily]

Quarter piece, got war, and peace inside my DNA
I got power, poison, pain, and joy inside my DNA
I got hustle, though, ambition flow inside my DNA
I was born like this

​

Following the Flutter Mane suspect, the DOU Council has shifted focus to the clear next option for a suspect: Deoxys-Attack.

Deoxys-Attack embodies the role of a glass cannon more than any other pokemon. With its sky high offenses, 180 in both Attack and Special Attack, Deoxys-A is a rare threat that can utilize both phyiscal and special attacks effectively. Even though Deoxys-A has essentially no defenses, it’s able to use a focus sash to guarantee it survives at least one hit to be able to get off its attacks. Alongside those high offensive stats, Deoxys-A also outspeeds almost the entire unboosted metagame, (other than the uncommonly used Regieleki) allowing it to easily get off its powerful attacks. Typically priority attackers would be able to still beat a threat that has such low defenses, but Psychic Terrain is almost always used to compliment Deoxys-A as it is the best exploiter of the archetype. Not only does Psychic Terrain block priority attacks that could take out Deoxys-A before it attacks, but it also gives it something that most glass cannons don't have, a powerful spread attack in Expanding Force. This gives Deoxys-A the opportunity to KO both opposing Pokemon, preventing the opponent from being able to trade one of thier pokemon to be able to hit Deoxys-A back. Indedee-F also excellently supports Deoxys-A, being able to redirect opposing attacks as well as use Helping Hand to make Deoxys-A's attacks even more deadly. Beyond just Expanding Force, Deoxys-A also gets an incredibly strong single target attack in Psycho Boost, which allows it to have a strong attack to click outside of Psychic Terrain, and inside of it Psycho Boost is able to OHKO many bulky neutral targets. Typically opponents could just use Steel & Dark types to be able to survive Deoxys-A's onslaught of powerful psychic attacks, but Deoxys-A also gets great coverage moves like Superpower, which limits Pokemon like Kingambit, Chien-Pao, Tyranitar, and Chi-yu from being reliable checks.

That being said, there are Steels & Darks that are able to withstand Superpower and Deoxys-A's psychic attacks, either by a combination of good secondary typing, helpful abilities, or great bulk, such as Incineroar, Gholdengo, Archaludon, and Grimmsnarl. Psychic types like Cresselia, Hatterene, and Mew are able to resist all of Deoxys-A’s typical moves. Alongside this, Rillaboom is a favorite pick to help counter psychic terrain, as it can change the terrain and with its good bulk boosted by Assault Vest & priority moves in Grassy Glide & Fake Out, Rillaboom can switch in on Deoxys-Attack and threaten it. Furthermore, like all glass cannons, Deoxys-A is extremely susceptible to speed control, pokemon that have their speed boosted either by Choice Scarf or Booster Energy, or by weather attackers. Also Deoxys-A can be very difficult to position; it cannot switch in on basically any attacks without breaking its focus sash.

As usual, 60% of the vote must be in favor to ban Deoxys-Attack.

Important: For this suspect, there will be two ways to qualify. The first is the typical laddering period, where players must reach the minimum GXE. The second is by winning a live suspect tournament, to be held in the Smogon Doubles Room. You may compete in the suspect tournament on any account, and will need to post proof of you winning the suspect tournament on the voter ID thread.

There will be two live suspect tournaments:

Suspect Tournament Times
Saturday, March 2nd at 12:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
Sunday, March 3rd at 4:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

The laddering period will last for a total of nine days.

Laddering Period
Start: Friday, March 1st at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)
End: Sunday, March 10th at 8:00 PM Eastern time (GMT-5)

All games must be played on the Pokemon Showdown! Doubles OU ladder on a fresh alt with the prefix DOUAD [name]. For example, I might register "DOUAD Actuarily” to ladder with. You must follow this format to qualify.

To qualify to vote, you must achieve a minimum GXE of 80 with at least 50 games played. In addition, you may subtract 1 game for every 0.2 GXE you have above 80 GXE, down to a minimum of 30 games at a GXE of 84. As always, needing more than 50 games to reach 80 GXE is fine.

Minimum Games Needed

GXE	minimum games
80	50
80.2	49
80.4	48
80.6	47
80.8	46
81	45
81.2	44
81.4	43
81.6	42
81.8	41
82	40
82.2	39
82.4	38
82.6	37
82.8	36
83	35
83.2	34
83.4	33
83.6	32
83.8	31
84	30

Deoxys-Attack will be legal during this suspect.

 

[Fangame10]

Ban deo a

 

[SuckyLucky]

Don’t Ban deo a

 

[SuckyLucky]

Anyways since OU and every other singles meta have their own infochart I made one for DOU this month! Plan on doing one for all future months too. Sorry for the sort of janky look, I didn't have actual access to the sort of backgrounds that they use for the official ones.

 

[Schister]

There's a lot of "Ban Deo" chanting going around but to be honest I don't really see the hype around the mon right now. Deoxys is a great win condition that has the capacity to sweep games but it has difficulties into all four of the top 4 mons in the tier, as well as many other common mons and as such I've never really felt pressured in builder to overly account for Deoxys like some other mons in the tier right now. To me: Deoxys feels like a the other end of the spectrum as Eruption torkoal: Overwhelmingly powerful spread attackers able to completely run down games if they get into the right position that have abundant and clear counters. They even boast similar damage output:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Sun: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Deoxys is clearly different from torkoal in that it prefers either not speed control at or tailwind for itself as opposed to trick room, among other things, but I still feel about the same when I face either one, it feels like cheese rather than a consistent threat. Deoxys completely falters in games where a single Rillaboom is managed well, mons such as moon or Scarf chi yu outspeed it and swiftly deal with it, games where huge AV mons such as Raging bolt or Kyurem can simply click Snarl or Glaciate and trade positively with it and it is woefully inept at dealing with opposing psyspam mons that can easily eat its hits and abuse trick room to get a leg up in the head-to-head. Every time I've built a team in this format I find that I have multiple tools to dispatch of deoxys with because the reality is that any almost pokemon that manages to trade with deoxys (I.E, isn't blown up immediately) ends up trading positively. There's so many board states where deoxys is force to click something other than expanding force against mons such as chi yu or chien pao or RIllaboom and even some board state that DO allow you to click expanding force require multiple damage multipliers in order to make deoxys trade positively against mons such as Gholdengo or the aforementioned AV dragons, resources that just as easily enable a Chi yu or regidrago or a landorus or some other spread attacker.

That said: I understand why many want it banned, and I don't believe the tier would be much worse off without it, given that there are many substitutes for Psyspam to use and we even have a downgraded version of deoxys to play with, but I do think the calls to ban this pokemon have been slightly overblown.

 

[sir jelloton]

There's a lot of "Ban Deo" chanting going around but to be honest I don't really see the hype around the mon right now. Deoxys is a great win condition that has the capacity to sweep games but it has difficulties into all four of the top 4 mons in the tier, as well as many other common mons and as such I've never really felt pressured in builder to overly account for Deoxys like some other mons in the tier right now. To me: Deoxys feels like a the other end of the spectrum as Eruption torkoal: Overwhelmingly powerful spread attackers able to completely run down games if they get into the right position that have abundant and clear counters. They even boast similar damage output:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Sun: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Deoxys is clearly different from torkoal in that it prefers either not speed control at or tailwind for itself as opposed to trick room, among other things, but I still feel about the same when I face either one, it feels like cheese rather than a consistent threat. Deoxys completely falters in games where a single Rillaboom is managed well, mons such as moon or Scarf chi yu outspeed it and swiftly deal with it, games where huge AV mons such as Raging bolt or Kyurem can simply click Snarl or Glaciate and trade positively with it and it is woefully inept at dealing with opposing psyspam mons that can easily eat its hits and abuse trick room to get a leg up in the head-to-head. Every time I've built a team in this format I find that I have multiple tools to dispatch of deoxys with because the reality is that any almost pokemon that manages to trade with deoxys (I.E, isn't blown up immediately) ends up trading positively. There's so many board states where deoxys is force to click something other than expanding force against mons such as chi yu or chien pao or RIllaboom and even some board state that DO allow you to click expanding force require multiple damage multipliers in order to make deoxys trade positively against mons such as Gholdengo or the aforementioned AV dragons, resources that just as easily enable a Chi yu or regidrago or a landorus or some other spread attacker.

That said: I understand why many want it banned, and I don't believe the tier would be much worse off without it, given that there are many substitutes for Psyspam to use and we even have a downgraded version of deoxys to play with, but I do think the calls to ban this pokemon have been slightly overblown.

I too never believed this mon was as broken as people say, but I will still 100% be voting ban. I consider it a match up fish but it's a damn efficient one. there are Hyper offensive tailwind builds that Deo-A structures use to get a favored match up versus all other offense virtually, but they faulter to semiroom or some balance structures. However there are also semiroom Deo-A structures that beat other semi-room or are good against the normal deo-a counters and it can become hard to prep for both. I also feel Deo-A is incredibily easy to use in comparison to getting value out of iron crowns booster or positioning necrozma to get in with trick room. Deo-A just comes in and says "psychic move or fighting move" and if you pick wrong you lose. It doesn't personally give me the most amount of trouble, but in paying attention to the sv of DPL you'll notice a decent handful of players have their success loosely-directly tied to how often they use Psyspam and I feel that's got to be indicative something is wrong.

Ban Deo-A

 

[TundraRage65]

I may not have the requirements yet, but once I do. I'm voting *BAN*. Deo-A is a potent sweeper that needs very little support. Checks can easily be handled by team support, Chi-Yu dismantles Boom and Cres, Indeedee-F does Indeedee-F things and Deoxys-A can also be placed in trick room structures for mind games. I see this puts too much restraint on the meta and therefore I hope for it to be banned. (All my reasons are in the post flutter ban post, also for anyone who wants to check my GXE on ladder, it's TundraRage96)

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

it is my opinion that deoxys-a's existence in the tier is a hindrance on teambuilding as every team is expected to have 2-3 ways of consistently beating deo lest they get run over completely. its damage output is similar to that of MODEST torkoal yes, but it doesn't require a turn of setup to be that powerful. additionally it is perfectly capable of switching out should it find itself at risk of being dealt with unlike that of a torkoal as trick room teams typically dont have time to waste switching out. even its greatest checks and counters are a few points of chip away from being taken out or in the case of a booster speed roaring moon, simply being forced to switch out after procing booster energy.

due to the nature of deo-a's kit favouring that of hyper offensive the tier also feels extremely crowded by those types of teams not allowing for much else to find viability, should deo be banned it would make room for more diversity in building (and the return of assault vest iron hands viability) making for what i personally feel a much healthier meta overall

Ban Deo-A

 

[eragon]

ban deo a

 

[EternalSnowman]

There's a lot of "Ban Deo" chanting going around but to be honest I don't really see the hype around the mon right now. Deoxys is a great win condition that has the capacity to sweep games but it has difficulties into all four of the top 4 mons in the tier, as well as many other common mons and as such I've never really felt pressured in builder to overly account for Deoxys like some other mons in the tier right now. To me: Deoxys feels like a the other end of the spectrum as Eruption torkoal: Overwhelmingly powerful spread attackers able to completely run down games if they get into the right position that have abundant and clear counters. They even boast similar damage output:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Sun: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Deoxys is clearly different from torkoal in that it prefers either not speed control at or tailwind for itself as opposed to trick room, among other things, but I still feel about the same when I face either one, it feels like cheese rather than a consistent threat. Deoxys completely falters in games where a single Rillaboom is managed well, mons such as moon or Scarf chi yu outspeed it and swiftly deal with it, games where huge AV mons such as Raging bolt or Kyurem can simply click Snarl or Glaciate and trade positively with it and it is woefully inept at dealing with opposing psyspam mons that can easily eat its hits and abuse trick room to get a leg up in the head-to-head. Every time I've built a team in this format I find that I have multiple tools to dispatch of deoxys with because the reality is that any almost pokemon that manages to trade with deoxys (I.E, isn't blown up immediately) ends up trading positively. There's so many board states where deoxys is force to click something other than expanding force against mons such as chi yu or chien pao or RIllaboom and even some board state that DO allow you to click expanding force require multiple damage multipliers in order to make deoxys trade positively against mons such as Gholdengo or the aforementioned AV dragons, resources that just as easily enable a Chi yu or regidrago or a landorus or some other spread attacker.

That said: I understand why many want it banned, and I don't believe the tier would be much worse off without it, given that there are many substitutes for Psyspam to use and we even have a downgraded version of deoxys to play with, but I do think the calls to ban this pokemon have been slightly overblown.

252 SpA Tera Psychic Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Psycho Boost vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 482-568 (113.9 - 134.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

ban deo-a nice try

 

[Actuarily]

The suspect qualifying tour for Saturday March 2nd will take place after the DPP $100 room tour concludes, if it takes over an hour.

 

[TundraRage65]

There's a lot of "Ban Deo" chanting going around but to be honest I don't really see the hype around the mon right now. Deoxys is a great win condition that has the capacity to sweep games but it has difficulties into all four of the top 4 mons in the tier, as well as many other common mons and as such I've never really felt pressured in builder to overly account for Deoxys like some other mons in the tier right now. To me: Deoxys feels like a the other end of the spectrum as Eruption torkoal: Overwhelmingly powerful spread attackers able to completely run down games if they get into the right position that have abundant and clear counters. They even boast similar damage output:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Sun: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Deoxys is clearly different from torkoal in that it prefers either not speed control at or tailwind for itself as opposed to trick room, among other things, but I still feel about the same when I face either one, it feels like cheese rather than a consistent threat. Deoxys completely falters in games where a single Rillaboom is managed well, mons such as moon or Scarf chi yu outspeed it and swiftly deal with it, games where huge AV mons such as Raging bolt or Kyurem can simply click Snarl or Glaciate and trade positively with it and it is woefully inept at dealing with opposing psyspam mons that can easily eat its hits and abuse trick room to get a leg up in the head-to-head. Every time I've built a team in this format I find that I have multiple tools to dispatch of deoxys with because the reality is that any almost pokemon that manages to trade with deoxys (I.E, isn't blown up immediately) ends up trading positively. There's so many board states where deoxys is force to click something other than expanding force against mons such as chi yu or chien pao or RIllaboom and even some board state that DO allow you to click expanding force require multiple damage multipliers in order to make deoxys trade positively against mons such as Gholdengo or the aforementioned AV dragons, resources that just as easily enable a Chi yu or regidrago or a landorus or some other spread attacker.

That said: I understand why many want it banned, and I don't believe the tier would be much worse off without it, given that there are many substitutes for Psyspam to use and we even have a downgraded version of deoxys to play with, but I do think the calls to ban this pokemon have been slightly overblown.

You used in base 120 BP Expanding Force, most times it's on the field it's a 156 BP move coming off a 180 Sp.Attack stat and STAB. It's a gareenteed KO (assuming the Deo kills or its teammate finishes it off) on the Kyurem set you had calculated against. The thing about Deo is when it's on the field. It threatens so much. Inciniroar is only a would-be check if worn down. And rillaboom isn't foolproof. Gambit gets killed if it doesn't Tera, Dengo takes massive damage and Chi-Yu is a good teammate for Deo and can handle dengo. Cress is also destroyed by Chi-yu. And remember, it's a 100 % acc, 156 with STAB coming off a base 180 special attack Stat. It's not going to be easy to handle it.

 

[PigWarrior19]

it is my opinion that deoxys-a's existence in the tier is a hindrance on teambuilding as every team is expected to have 2-3 ways of consistently beating deo lest they get run over completely. its damage output is similar to that of MODEST torkoal yes, but it doesn't require a turn of setup to be that powerful. additionally it is perfectly capable of switching out should it find itself at risk of being dealt with unlike that of a torkoal as trick room teams typically dont have time to waste switching out. even its greatest checks and counters are a few points of chip away from being taken out or in the case of a booster speed roaring moon, simply being forced to switch out after procing booster energy.

due to the nature of deo-a's kit favouring that of hyper offensive the tier also feels extremely crowded by those types of teams not allowing for much else to find viability, should deo be banned it would make room for more diversity in building (and the return of assault vest iron hands viability) making for what i personally feel a much healthier meta overall

Ban Deo-A

absolutely agree. This is an incredibly easy ban vote Psyspam won't suffer too much without deo A much like basc this is just a nerf there's a ton of mons that can take it's place like and Sadly I don't see a time where AV hands will ever be as viable as it once was :skull:

 

[Idyll]

There's a lot of "Ban Deo" chanting going around but to be honest I don't really see the hype around the mon right now. Deoxys is a great win condition that has the capacity to sweep games but it has difficulties into all four of the top 4 mons in the tier, as well as many other common mons and as such I've never really felt pressured in builder to overly account for Deoxys like some other mons in the tier right now. To me: Deoxys feels like a the other end of the spectrum as Eruption torkoal: Overwhelmingly powerful spread attackers able to completely run down games if they get into the right position that have abundant and clear counters. They even boast similar damage output:

252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Expanding Force (120 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Psychic Terrain: 154-183 (36.4 - 43.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Charcoal Torkoal Eruption (150 BP) vs. 128 HP / 128 SpD Assault Vest Kyurem in Sun: 172-204 (40.6 - 48.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Deoxys is clearly different from torkoal in that it prefers either not speed control at or tailwind for itself as opposed to trick room, among other things, but I still feel about the same when I face either one, it feels like cheese rather than a consistent threat. Deoxys completely falters in games where a single Rillaboom is managed well, mons such as moon or Scarf chi yu outspeed it and swiftly deal with it, games where huge AV mons such as Raging bolt or Kyurem can simply click Snarl or Glaciate and trade positively with it and it is woefully inept at dealing with opposing psyspam mons that can easily eat its hits and abuse trick room to get a leg up in the head-to-head. Every time I've built a team in this format I find that I have multiple tools to dispatch of deoxys with because the reality is that any almost pokemon that manages to trade with deoxys (I.E, isn't blown up immediately) ends up trading positively. There's so many board states where deoxys is force to click something other than expanding force against mons such as chi yu or chien pao or RIllaboom and even some board state that DO allow you to click expanding force require multiple damage multipliers in order to make deoxys trade positively against mons such as Gholdengo or the aforementioned AV dragons, resources that just as easily enable a Chi yu or regidrago or a landorus or some other spread attacker.

That said: I understand why many want it banned, and I don't believe the tier would be much worse off without it, given that there are many substitutes for Psyspam to use and we even have a downgraded version of deoxys to play with, but I do think the calls to ban this pokemon have been slightly overblown.

 

[Yoda2798]

Congratulations to SMB (gen3duu) for winning the first suspect tour!
Finals replay, semis replay (other semis was a DQ)

Bracket (32 participants)

The second suspect tour is tomorrow (Sunday) at 4pm-5

 

[Akeras]

First to get reqs while laddering ?
Without seeing any deo-A tho

 

[Grandmas Cookin]

First to get reqs while laddering ?
Without seeing any deo-A tho
View attachment 610645

u have to post that in the voter identification thread

 

[SuckyLucky]

Thought I would articulate my position on the Deoxys-Attack suspect, as someone who has put a lot of work into different Deo-A teams and been an avid user of the mon.

There is nothing to be said about Deo-A's damage output at this point, we all know what it does. Chunks every non-immunity or resist for 75% minimum, and gets to Superpower everything that can take an Expanding Force. Proper positioning lets it sweep late game once its checks are weakened, and sometimes it can win on preview against the right team. Clicks buttons and wins, and gets even more out of control with Tera/Helping Hand/Chi-Yu to load on even more damage output. Nothing aside from Scarfers, Boosters, and the incredibly rare Regieleki outspeed it and priority is blocked by Psychic Terrain.

However, it does have its major flaws. Mainly being that it is incredibly frail and HAS to run Focus Sash - some have experimented with Life Orb, but it really can't afford to run that - and that is really really wants Psychic Terrain up to do what it wants as well as constant redirection support from Indeedee. There are some teams that have tried Terrainless Deo-A but that isn't why Deoxys is being suspected.

So where do I stand? I understand each side of the argument, but am personally leaning towards Do Not Ban, though that is subject to change and I am very iffy on it now. I have a few reasons for this:

1. The constraint of Deoxys-Attack on teambuilding (and lack thereof): Deoxys-Attack is absolutely a mon you have to prep for in the teambuilder, but less so than some of the other big threats in the meta currently like Landorus/Chi-Yu/Archaludon. Just compare how oppressive Flutter was before its ban and Deoxys-Attack now, for example. The pokemon that are the best in the metagame right now all have relatively favorable matchups into Deoxys-Attack and Indeedee (more on that in a bit). Rillaboom just switches in easily and removes Psychic Terrain, hindering it's progress, Incineroar can easily take a -1 Superpower and break it's sash/cripple Indeedee for future switch ins, Tailwind from Tornadus completely cripples Deo-A since it needs to move first, and there are plenty of Dark/Steel types (Chien-Pao, Gholdengo, and Archaludon to name a few) that can live an EForce or survive a Superpower to do big damage in return with spread move/Ice Spinner. The best mons into Deoxys-Attack are also just the best mons in the meta, but I don't think that correlation equals causation here - Torn, Incin, Arch, Rilla, etc. are all going to be incredibly good pokemon even if Deoxys-Attack is banned. It doesn't even have that high of usage on Ladder (I know that ladder and tournament play are VERY different but it hasn't even seen that much tourney play either based on the DPL usage stats).

2. Plenty of counterplay: Sort of builds off of the previous reason. Speed control is relatively easy to set up against Deoxys & Indeedee, with Prankster/Roaring Moon Booster Energy Tailwinds assured against the duo and most Trick Room setters able to live a boosted EForce. Grassy Terrain stuffs it, forcing unfavorable switches and pivots, while Stealth Rock can break the Focus Sash and really force the Deoxys-Attack into unfavorable positions when facing down Scarfed mons with spread moves/speed control. Even Wide Guard mons have their uses against it, with Pelipper on Archaludon rain teams being the prime example.

3. Deoxys-Attack is two team slots: Pretty self explanatory. Indeedee and Deoxys-Attack are more or less a package duo, with Indeedee providing the Psychic Terrain and Deoxys providing everything else. Indeedee is really only good to set up terrain and click Follow Me and Helping Hand, and is incredibly passive. It's Psychics/Dazzling Gleams are easy to ignore, and can't do anything to help Deo-A against spread moves or Grassy Terrain aside from pivoting around and taking damage on switch ins. If Deo-A had a good Terrain Setter or summoned it itself that would be a different story, but the fact is that the core of Psyspam is Deoxys-Attack AND Indeedee. Not a bad core by any stretch of the imagination, and can fit well on many different teams, but not exactly broken like how Flutter and Chi-Yu were.

I have a few other minor reasons, and I understand the argument of 252 SpA Deoxys-Attack Helping Hand Expanding Force in Psychic Terrain vs. Everything -- guaranteed OHKO, but it really isn't just as simple as a delete button. It does take careful play against good teams and smart positioning to win games.

I just wanted to provide my main arguments against banning Deoxys-Attack, even if I might still vote Ban in the suspect.

 

[Actuarily]

Congrats to Akaru Kokuyo for winning the second suspect tournament!

Semis replay
Finals replay
(I missed one the semis replays and it expired, sorry)

Bracket 31 players

 

[qsns]

Not going to bore anyone with damage calcs lol, 252 HH EForce usually gets kills on 2 mons unless target is immune, Superpower coverage is ridiculous, etc.

While I think there is counterplay to the above scenario, it's extremely difficult to deal with the rest of the team. SR may be able to break Deo-A's Focus Sash, but when are you getting time to set that up vs the Deo Indeedee lead? Does that lead beat Lilligant + Torkoal? Does that lead lose to the Indeedee Hatterene lead? Tyo's team is a fantastic example of the many angles Psyspam can come at you with if clicking Deo-A buttons from lead doesn't work, and once the opponent's team is slightly out of position, the stupid calcs from Deo-A can begin to come up.

Going to push back on the "Focus Sash is mandatory" being any sort of downside. I have seen so many games where 1% Deoxys takes a kill with Psycho Boost, switches, and proceeds to clean with EForce in the late game. Torn seems like an OK answer into the archetype until you're forced to sack it to set up TW, bring Deo-A to sash with the other Pokemon, and be down your speed control for the rest of the game. Archaludon seems like an OK answer until it switches into an Expanding Force and is effectively down for the rest of the game. Incineroar seems like an OK answer until it takes the HH Superpower to break Sash and cannot answer any part of the team later. This is generally how Pokemon works (break for your late game win condition) but the sheer efficacy of HH Expanding Force doing both in a somewhat neutral position makes it banworthy, imo.

 

[bagel]

qsns put it very succinctly, Deo-A can blow through most of the metagame including would-be checks with very little outside support, while also generating unreasonable pressure both in the builder and in the game. There are so many directions a Deoxys-Attack team can go to take advantage of and bypass the specific counterplay to Deo-A that is forced out of opponents. qsns mentioned tyo's Psyspam sample but in DPL we've seen a wide variety of teams that make use of Deo-A's ability to put on unreasonable pressure. It's been used on Sun, Rain, Tailwind and Trick Room teams that, while versitile in style and play, all tend to use Deo-A in the same one-dimensional breaker/cleaner role that it just is too efficient at.

I also think that in-game Deo-A forces more unhealthy gameplay than any other Pokemon. So many games feel like they can come down to "guess what move Deoxys clicks" (with the dice stacked in Deo's favor because of its unrivaled speed and power but bla bla we know about that stats and damage calcs already). These two games are just a couple examples of how early misscalls on what Deo will click end up snowballing the game out of control far more than any other mon in the tier (they also show how good Sash is compared to a downside like qsns talked about). In the end for me it comes down to the sheer breaking power availible on such a fast mon which consistently stacks the deck in favor of the Deoxys-Attack user.

 

[MidKnight22]

I'm not suspect laddering because a) I don't have time, b) I would be extremely biased in wanting Deoxys to stay, and c) am not nearly as experienced as the other players commenting here. However, I feel obligated to mention that I started playing DOU for the first time, made a team with some basic doubles knowledge, and it's currently 22-0 on ladder. I, a singles main, was able to reach 1467 on ladder without losing a single game, and without any prior doubles ou experience. I know that's not too high on ladder, but I've still found this mon to be overbearingly strong (especially boosted with helping hand, beads of ruin, etc.), and any dark/steel type counterplay I've encountered can be circumvented (albeit with a little trouble).

Also, here's the team.
https://pokepast.es/a5c4a1a44b91e7be

Update: I lost to a 1600 player using dachsbun, there's your counterplay

 

[Actuarily]

While I get that Deo-A can be extremely powerful under the right circumstances, this is nothing new in DOU. For instance, Kingdra in BW/SM can absolutely sweep teams with rain up (and even has greater speed and more bulk). The question is whether or not there’s adequate checks in the metagame, and I absolutely think there is for Deoxys-Attack.

After the Flutter Mane ban, there’s been a lot of metagame shifts that have been bad for Deo-A. Steels that previously had poor matchups into Flutter Mane (but much better matchups into Deo-A) have risen drastically in usage like Gholdengo & Archaludon. Psychics that wall Deo-A like Mew are seeing much more use. Darks have gotten so much better without a fairy on 70% of teams, and as a result we’re seeing more of the likes of Incineroar & Roaring Moon. More niche threats like Moltres-G have been doing well. Even Grimmsnarl has risen to DOU by ladder usage. This isn’t even accounting for much of what already existed that kept Deo-A in check, like scarf mons/booster speed mons, prankster tailwind, Rillaboom, bulky snarl, sash Chien-Pao, etc.

Speaking of usage, through week six in DPL Deo-A has been used 11 times, out of 71 games (142 teams), for a 7.07% usage rate (OSDT is slightly higher). While I get that it requires a specific team type to really be effective, and something doesn't necessarily have to be approaching Flutter Mane levels of usage to be banworthy, that's very low for an offensive threat to be broken. I think people aren’t using Deo-A nearly as much as things like Gholdengo/Arch balance because those styles are much more reliable.

 

[SMB]

The only thing that has changed for deoxys since the council votes after the dlc release is the flutter mane ban. I wouldn't say this makes deoxys stronger or weaker, it's a bit of both worlds as flutter mane was a psyspam check but it was also used in those teams and helped with speed control for deoxys.

With that said, my opinion remains the same as in those votes. Despite being a very strong threat that can ohko many stuff if we press a couple of button combinations on the damage calculator, the tier has checks for it, with solid steel and dark types to pick, rillaboom being a top pokemon in usage and often paired with priority, sand living a resurgence, prankster tailwind everywhere, scarfers... Every team should have at least 2 or 3 solid answers to deoxys, and they should come naturally in the process of building.

Even if some calcs are insane, deoxys still requires some skill to be used, if one or more of the following things fail, it isn't nearly as effective as it could seem: speed control, terrain control, good positioning...

This gen definitely brought a lot of improvements for a pokemon like deoxys, elevating it to an offensive presence as never before, but also brought enough stuff to keep it in check and make the deoxys player need to play well in order to win.

 

[Yoda2798]

My thoughts are largely the same as in my council/VR votes from before, Deoxys-Attack is a strong glass cannon but nothing unmanageable due to its drawbacks. It's also important to note that it was previously suspect tested in SM and received a large amount of ban support there which looks laughable in hindsight, this is a Pokemon that has been overhyped before.

Deoxys-Attack is very much the archetypal 'glass cannon' taken to the extreme, having almost entirely min-maxed stats in favour of its offensive attributes and Speed, with its bulk correspondingly low to the point where even a Fake Out from Mega Kangaskhan can OHKO it. Pokemon like Chien-Pao will go down to any reasonably strong hit, but for Deoxys anything that can really be called a proper attack at all will be sufficient. This leads to Focus Sash being almost required as an item for Deoxys, though its especially high stats does help make up for the loss in power compared to slightly bulkier Pokemon using an offensive item instead.

Along with Deoxys' strong stats are fittingly strong attacks, with its signature Psycho Boost being one of the strongest attacks in the game, and Superpower pairing very nicely as coverage for the Dark- and Steel-types which resist its only STAB, while covering both the physical and special sides of the spectrum. Aside from other Psychic-types, almost nothing resists both of these typical attacks, letting Deoxys threaten a KO or at least a lot of damage on most Pokemon to exist. However, as is also the case with other glass cannons, jaw dropping calcs on paper doesn't always translate well into practice, as by their nature glass cannons are reliant on constantly being on the front foot as a single mistake will open up their soft underbelly. Attacking into a Protect while being targeted by the other slot, being double targeted, or being unable to pick up a KO in a position can all quickly lead to a glass cannon's downfall. Any kind of priority, speed control like Tailwind or Trick Room, or Pokemon which boost their Speed are also typical checks, along with whatever Pokemon can safely take a hit from the given Pokemon in question. All this to say that the nature of doubles makes glass cannons (and on the opposite end 'walls' as well) worse relative to singles, Pokemon which manage a combination of offensive pressure and defensive capabilities are the strongest and most reliable. Losing a bit of power to gain an actual defensive profile is usually very much worth it, and there's a reason why glass cannons, even the excellently min-maxed Deoxys-Attack, are typically relegated to more niche options. A topical example would be Flutter Mane, which while being a bit weaker than Deoxys offensively, has actual bulk, making a world of difference and putting Flutter Mane clear as the much better of the two.

Another important presence to consider though is access to a strong spread option, as they are especially useful for letting offensive combinations clean up whatever Pokemon are put in front of them. Flutter Mane's Dazzling Gleam was one of its strongest aspects, while Deoxys has historically lacked a good spread option, up until recently with Expanding Force. Weather sweepers are a good example of this, just look at how indispensable Kingdra has been for rain because of its access to Muddy Water, a move without which the archetype would lose a lot of viability from. Hail is a much weaker example, but also heavily benefits from Blizzard as a spread move, in either case boosting a strong spread move is one of the biggest benefits of weather. As of last gen we also had a similar new example in Expanding Force, a move which benefits from Psychic Terrain rather than weather (and is also not actually spread without that, though it's still the same type of deal). Weather or terrain, practically speaking these have both historically followed a formula of 'setter' (a Pokemon dedicated to setting the terrain/weather and otherwise support such as Helping Hand), and the 'sweeper' - or "abuser" but that's not a nice word - (the Pokemon taking advantage to actually do the strong stuff). Generally speaking the 'setter' kind of sucks, and would otherwise not be worth using without a beneficiary, meaning the other Pokemon must make enough of its support to make using the pair worthwhile. In Deoxys' case this very much rings true with it requiring Indeedee-F to fully unleash Expanding Force, a Pokemon most teams would otherwise not want without Deoxys, and that as a second Psychic-type doesn't contribute a lot type wise which Deoxys doesn't.

So aside from the introduction of Expanding Force, what other changes have there been since the last time we seen Deoxys? A change which the importance of really can't be understated is the move to a dynamic turn order, elevating the strength of speed control like Prankster Tailwind or fast Icy Wind users, while as a result weakening fast Pokemon like Deoxys which are vulnerable to it. There's also been the notable addition of Rillaboom, a very splashable terrain setter with a good priority move, the kind of Pokemon very much the thorn in a terrain dependent Deoxys' side. This gen in particular we also have Booster Energy existing as a(n arguably) stronger form of Choice Scarf for select Pokemon to outspeed it, along with Terrastallization as a mechanic, which while useful to Deoxys as a possible offensive boost, is much stronger as a defensive option against it, especially due to its glass cannon nature meaning catching it out on a single turn can spell doom as discussed earlier. As general trends there are also a lot of good Dark-type Pokemon in this meta, and more priority than most doubles metas (though obviously this requires Psychic Terrain not being up, but Rillaboom's Grassy Surge or Chien-Pao's Ice Spinner can help remove it). Expanding Force aside, the other changes are quite negative for it.

Combining everything in practice though, how does it look? Well I really think that as Actuarily has said, usage paints a strong picture here that's different from what most people are saying. Usage obviously isn't everything, but if something is broken to the point of being banworthy then it should be seeing a lot of usage, and that has even applied to offensive Pokemon in the past like Urshifu, Kartana, or Marshadow. However, Deoxys really isn't at that level though, it's comfortably outside of the top 10 usage in OSDT at ~12% usage, and even lower in DPL. For a supposedly banworthy Pokemon that is very low, and it's not a situation of people having not picked up on it yet as a recent trend, or there being some suboptimal counter everybody is running to discourage it either. The proof is in the pudding that when it comes down to the question of "what is the strongest team/Pokemon for me to use?" people are not really putting their money where there mouth is and using Deoxys. As for why I've mostly explained that earlier, Deoxys is still beholden to the same glass cannon flaws as before, though with a number of more tools to help handle it in this meta, and while Expanding Force is a powerful upgrade, the cost of being stuck with Indeedee drags in down in practice to the point where you're generally better using two different Pokemon that can contribute more individually than the PsySpam duo. I've not really touched on the meta shift after the Flutter Mane ban, since it is kind of a mixed bag for Deoxys, but I think it's neutral if not negative for Deoxys. It should be no surprise at this point that I will be voting No Ban on Deoxys-Attack for the above reasoning.