Metagame np: SV DOU Stage 11: DNA | Deoxys-Attack Banned

usage in OSDT at ~12% usage, and even lower in DPL. For a supposedly banworthy Pokemon that is very low
Didn't Commander get banned with ~11% usage? Usage rate is not the be-all-end-all of centralization. Deo-A is definitely a pokemon you need to think about in the builder and if you don't bring a specific answer (or two) and also play correctly you will lose to it. That pressure in the builder and on the field is clearly centralizing. Plus, it's two most common checks (incin and rillaboom) are also heavily pressured by it.

While deo does generally want indeedee on the same team, that two-pack is easy to slap onto any team, which means no composition will be able to check every deo team. You always need to contend with the other 4 pokemon while keeping your deo checks healthy.

IMO the pressure it creates in the builder and on the field are unhealthy and unfun, and I have voted Ban.
 

Darkmalice

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Didn't Commander get banned with ~11% usage? Usage rate is not the be-all-end-all of centralization. Deo-A is definitely a pokemon you need to think about in the builder and if you don't bring a specific answer (or two) and also play correctly you will lose to it. That pressure in the builder and on the field is clearly centralizing. Plus, it's two most common checks (incin and rillaboom) are also heavily pressured by it.

While deo does generally want indeedee on the same team, that two-pack is easy to slap onto any team, which means no composition will be able to check every deo team. You always need to contend with the other 4 pokemon while keeping your deo checks healthy.

IMO the pressure it creates in the builder and on the field are unhealthy and unfun, and I have voted Ban.
-1 4 Atk Tera Psychic Deoxys-Attack Superpower vs. 252 HP / 96 Def Incineroar: 190-224 (48.2 - 56.8%)

Incineroar can switch in and never be 2HKOed, at least without Helping Hand which still doesn't OHKO and may still not 2HKO if it has Sitrus Berry. Incineroar also checks Indeedee with Knock Off. I have always felt more threatened from Incineroar using Deo-A than vice-versa.

Rillaboom only gets OHKOed by Tera Psychic Helping Hand Psycho Boost, which is quite a call for the Deo-A user to make on the switch-in. After the switch-in, Rillaboom gets Fake Out for at least one free turn, especially if the paired Indeedee lacks Protect.

The two are also commonly paired together, and/or may be paired with another check or two, which helps more reliably deal with Deo-A whilst also dealing with the other 4 Pokemon. Most teams incidentally bring a check or more to Deo-A without specifically planning for it.
 

Yoda2798

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There are still votes remaining, but the result is decided. With Ban having received over 60% of the vote already, Deoxys-Attack will be banned from SV DOU. The current voting breakdown is as follows:

Ban: 35 (81.4%)
Do Not Ban: 7 (16.3%)
Votes Remaining: 1 (2.3)
Total Voters: 43

Post below your thoughts on this new metagame change, and any other metagame elements you wish to discuss!
 
Can we ban Snow Cloak, Sand Veil, and Brightpowder?
Every mon with those abilities has access to an alternative, so no mon is completely lost through this. OU has already banned all three, so why does doubles in particular entertain keeping them?
Cloak Articuno is particularly common on ladder right now, owing to recent success in vgc (thank you tyo), and several of our ladder sand heroes are still using veil Garchomp too. So this isn't a non-issue by virtue of being extremely rare.
I don't think passive evasion boosts are adding anything positive to our game, while actively taking away from it.
 

eragon

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video discussing the survey with Schister and myself
There's two mons we discuss a fair amount here that I think are the most suspect worthy:
:Tornadus:
A large portion of this video deals with Torn and quite frankly this is probably the best target for a potential suspect. This is a very dominant Pokemon in the metagame, fitting on a wide variety team and taking advantage of multiple buffs its received-- primarily cloak and bleakwind storm. This mon leads to a very specific kind of offensive structure surrounding Lando I and itself that the metagame currently centers around at the moment (snow and pao in particular capitalize on this). Centralizing mon that is pretty annoying and I think it would be good to see a look at this, particularly if survey results support it (I think there's a pretty decent chance they will, based on conversations I've had with others).

:Archaludon:
Good mon, a little stupid with stamina bs. Might be also worth taking a look at but I currently view torn as a more systemic issue. Not opposed to action on this and I wouldn't be surprised if this is the most widely mentioned mon on the survey. Def could be broken but personally less certain on this than with torn. Probably one of the strongest users of tera but I think there's a few things that help keep it somewhat in check- primarily Lando but even that can be a bit shaky at times.

In regards to other stuff, tera isn't really the core issue and not something I think we need to anything about, worth keeping an eye on per usual but I think it mostly just has the same typical problems as other gimmicks (primarily benefits the top mons) and will likely be a giant non-issue if we deal with the potentially broken mons themselves. I also don't think this is the time to really test things down, while this metagame has made progress without having to deal with brokens like Flutter or Deo-A there are probably a few more things to look at first before the metagame fully stabilizes.

I encourage people to talk about the survey more here to get a more public discussion!
 
I also think Torn is bad for the tier and should be banned. Let's return to a proper tier, one where the only guaranteed Tailwind setter is Murkrow (Whimsicott has a problem but that's not from Tailwind setting).

I also think Arch is extremely restrictive in teambuilder, and is pretty unhealthy for the tier. Quirky stuff like beat up whims only makes the issue worse even if it is pretty gimmicky.

Also can we just quickban evasion abilities?
 
I will say firstly, I very much support a evasion abilities ban. The articuno snow teams (and snow teams in general) would still be pretty good and would make them more legitimate, as they mostly rely on the massive bulk they gain from snow + aurora veil while using powerful blizzards to get big damage and freeze. I've been using a glaceon snow team and the snow cloak aspect isn't even a large part of it, only another thing that can make it more dumb.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen9doublesou-2105190429-ov1a2crpcny2y4736utnmqj4q49ztnepw?p2
While the linked game is using an older team, it still shows how devestating evasion abilities can be. I got 4 snow cloak misses in that round and it just made the game easier because of that. Said snow cloak ban would mean I would have to use ice body, which wouldn't be too much of a big deal and means glaceon could still a defensive beast.
Now, for the other points.
:tornadus:
This mon is dumb, I would support a ban. It is basically the only tailwind mon you should use, everything else is much inferior. Dragonite can technically tailwind, but you want to use banded e-speed more likely. The next closest tailwind users are in Tier 4, with pelliper, who is limited to a specific playstyle, and whimsicott, who is mostly balanced (but I'll talk about the problematic part later). It also single handedly ruins any weather which means any weather setter is much worse off. It's also the best weather setter itself, so that's a problem. There's probably more to say, but I've talked long enough about it, ban it please.
:chien pao: / :kingambit:
Idk about these ones, they feel very powerful but potentially not overwhelming. Chien pao feels dealable with its frail nature and its overeliance on sash to not get destroyed after one turn its out. Gambit is a bit more concerning due to it punishing any intimidate users immensly, while not being bad if it doesn't get that matchup. But I'd like others input since I haven't seen them too much.
:archaludon: / :whimsicott:
I think that arch on its own is a fine mon. Very powerful, but it can be dealt with due to its lackluster special stat and to patch that up it can't have other stuff like safety goggles. The main issue I have with it is the beat up interaction. Now, I think most other justified users are alright with beat up, the closest justified user to OU is arcanine, who will want to run intimidate regardless. Every other justified user is alright. With arch however, not only are you raising your defense, but making a super powered threat that can ohko most things that don't resist it or are immune to it, which is restricting. I wouldn't have a problem if arch is banned, but I think there should be talks about what the true issue with the strategy is because there seems to be more than meets the eye under the surface.
:normal gem:
Nah, this ain't a problem (this is talking about tera). We don't need to ban it.
:tatsugiri: / :kyurem black: / :urshifu rapid strike:
Please don't unban any of these. I would say that you could ban commander on tatsugiri, but that's a roundabout solution, so just keep tats banned. The strategy of commander is too centralising and makes teams have to overcompensate. Kyurem black is way too powerful for the tier, good bulk, good enough speed and immense power. Urshifu rapid strike breaks doubles with unseen fist, defensive counterplay is limited. Please don't unban these, the metagame would go in the dumpster.
:amoonguss:
No, I don't think amoonguss should be banned. This is talking about sleep. IMO, sleep is busted. We already have the gravity sleep clause, so let's just do the full yard and ban it. Amoonguss is the most problematic part of this as it means trick room teams are basically going to be dead weight unless they have heavy safety goggles usage. This is a big thing, because safety goggles is otherwise a useless on a mon, but amoonguss means you have to have one mon with the item. Torkoal with yawn is also really annoying to deal with, and can be pretty big when its threatening eruptions all the time. I've even used yawn on bloodmoon and it still is an amazing move on it. There is limited counterplay to sleep, as the combo of spore + yawn means not much wants to take it. There are quite a few grass types in the tier, but I don't think they should be necessary to stop one matchup will be dead against everything else.
 

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