Finally, FINALLY i have some time, just started working and i suddenly have a complete abhor to greenhouses...
AAAANYWAY, I can finally give some relatively concise thoughts on goth. unfortunately i don't have the time to write the length of a dictionary like Fc did (a damn good one though with perfect points) but i will talk a couple things i did see posted that i really want to call CAP on.
To keep things short and to speak as what appears to be the minority I'm voting do not ban, not because of some shrang type philosophy which is pretty outdated considering the current smogon climate, but because the STAG issue is very overblown. The stranglehold that Calyrex-S and Zacian put in the tier due to their absurd offensive prowess is what makes STAG much stronger than it really is, forcing teams to use defensive cores to keep the two former in check which in turn STAG preys on, or use offense which is actually fine since most forms of offense are viable and can do well.
Personally i don't think these two being removed first would change shadow tag being dumb still. like... woo, phys def necrozma is no longer a target, but they still have the other big chunk of the VR that still is, and still has trap pairs that work even with them removed. Goth Scarfogre is the premier, and while losing some nice entry points in said phys def necrozma, it still has a ton of them, including teleports, slow u turn yveltal, or just good doubles and even if it loses some HP to rocks on the doubles, origin pulse still tears a HUGE amount of holes. Truthfully, Caly-GG holds scarf ogre back from just running modest alot more often and being more terrifying, which already challenges a small part of Caly-G empowering goth. Scarfogre goth isnt the only pairing though, Goth Marsh is still a solid core, and while marsh isnt as easy to fit on a squad and its defensive utility is practically null, it's still really good and would appreciate goth practically taking a dump on a zygarde by either just PP stalling it or tricking it a straight jacket scarf/specs. Groudon would also appreciate this, since alot of time zygarde is a pokemon holding it back from getting multiple boosts or just hard sweeping.
On another note, say we banned Caly-GG first, yveltal is suddenly freed up and no longer needs to run a sp def set. Now, I implore the audience today, to look at the tier and look back at a choice banded knock off. Scary right? Highkey that'll happen regardless of goth's ban, but there is one mon that would be able to check this demon set. That's right, ZAMA CROWNED TIME. and then you realize we voted do not ban on gothitelle and suddenly that smile turns to a frown because ya'll decided Wobbufett was so important that keeping it was more important than removing Gothitelle.
SPEAKING OF WOBB, i wanna go nuclear on this one right here.
hello. i do not believe that shadow tag should be banned.
i think that there are enough things in this game that deal with shadow tag that we don't need to ban it. stuff like: killing it outright, shed shell, ghost type, whirlwind-like moves, uturn-like moves, etc. some people think that having to resort to such sets would compromise on their teams, but teambuilding is all about compromising. you may think that stag proof sets are unviable, but if that set can beat something so broken/uncompetitive that it is worthy of suspecting, is that unviable set still unviable? i would say no. every team will always be weak to something. if you feel that stag causes too many compromises on defensive teams to defend properly, then perhaps your team was not good enough in the first place or perhaps playing defensively isn't the way to go.
#DontBanGoth #OccupyUbers #FreeZacianC #FreeEvasionPass
This makes me almost more mad than that one post last time that called reshiram a zacian counter. First off, yay ghost types avoid being trapped except that entirely does not matter when you can't go into them because the mon CURRENTLY IN IS TRAPPED. Also did you know that slapping whirlwind and roar on every mon under the sun does not save you from taunt or even the trick set? you can just trap a ho-oh and trick it a scarf and now its worthless unless it can get hit by knock which nobody would let happen. Did you also know u turn is only learned by 3 viable mons in the entire tier? Yveltal, a dark so not getting trapped, urshifu, which unironically can be trapped if it choices into CC, and Darm-GG, a mon that is ALWAYS choiced and if it choices into something not named u turn or crash its trapped too. Blitz doesnt even 2hko accounting for charm. Also that final comment really gets me when i remember you gas Arcanine in 2021 and talk to us bout bad teams.
Just because something has counter play in the game does not make it a valid reason to keep it in whatever tier its on the chopping block for. Zygarde-10% being suspected in RU? But its 4x weak to ice and i could use ice shard lapras, an- and its *checks notes* weak to fairy! It can't break
TANGELA its not broken at all! Atleast with every other post here, has reasoning i can atleast sympathize with and understand where they come from without them sounding truly ignorant. Speaking of posts i can understand but disagree with though
I've sat somewhere in the top 5 on the Ubers ladder for months now, and have never really had a problem with STAG. In fact, I've almost never faced it, and the few times I've had, it's usually taken out one mon of mine at most and proceeded to be dead weight the rest of the game.
While the ability *might* be broken, I find it perplexing that it's getting looked at before Calyrex-S and Zacian. I find those two put waaaaay more pressure on teambuilding for me than Goth does.
"Since offensive threats such as Kyogre, Zacian-Hero, and Xerneas force reactive defensive switch-ins such as Eternatus, Necrozma-DM, and Ho-Oh which generally need to heal on the switch-in, Gothitelle can relatively freely come in and remove one of the aforementioned's defensive counterplay, usually winning the game as a result."
If most teams are one Pokemon away from being 6-0ed by *insert threat here*, then that says more about the threats themselves than it does about Goth, does it not?
Let me draw a comparison for this because i truly understand this post. XY/ORAS Dugtrio. I know the tier is different now than it was during pre ban, but much is similar enough that you can look at the tier and identify your main Zard Y switchins. Chansey, Tyranitar, Heatran, and Latias. While Latias levitates above the trap, Tyranitar was usually paired with it regardless since they synergize so well, and both did eachother favors. However, the other 3, are dugtrio victims and really just make most teams way too vulnerable to Zard-y to be able to handle it reliably. While the lati twins and Garchomp aren't bad at atleast holding it off, Chomp has no recovery and can't switch in more than once, and lati twins were trapped by bff Tar like i said before. That's not the only beneficiary of course, so many pokemon in the tier are helped out IMMENSELY by heatran/Ttar/ removal like M-Venu, Talonflame, the previously mentioned latis, and many others. Along with Dugtrio Stall teams, it just proves the main issues with trapping.
They suffocate and make normally manageable things unmanageable by reasonable means. Beating them is possible, it's possible to beat anything in theory. But that doesn't mean it's a good reason to introduce or keep an overall unhealthy element to the game. If something is easily able to make multiple different pokemon broken when without that pokemon they wouldn't be broken atall, the enabler is the problem, which is applicable to gothitelle too.
Please guys, just stop being dense and weigh the pros of the ban, we WILL get to Calyrex soon and start looking at zacian more but just please just don't be fools and vote do not ban for stupid reasons. Just because you want Caly-G gone first doesn't mean this should be voted do not ban, just because ya'll love wobbufett all of a sudden doesn't mean this should be voted do not ban. Please just don't be tools and vote ban. It's been called the correct decision by 98% of the top players and given so many reasons to why it makes sense to get rid of it. Voting ban is the absolutely correct choice and there is like zero good arguments to the contrary. 
