Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 5 - Hound Dog (Zacian-Crowned Banned)

[FrostedC]

Whether it becomes like OU is not relevant. Ubers is its own independent meta, and thus should be evaluated on its own merit. Given nobody has even bothered to think about this argument shows what people actually want out of the meta.

This is actually very relevant; if we keep banning things from the top of Ubers until we get to a point where it becomes OU, Ubers will cease to be a tier. The problem with banning things from Ubers is that broken does in fact check broken; removing Zacian-C will remove one more check to GeoXern and still force NDM to run physdef for Zacian-H as Orch said. Whilst Zacian-C is on a power level above the rest of the tier, there will always be a mon that sits at the top. Think Kyogre in DPP; specs could ohko most of the tier and, with chip, scarf could 2hko checks such as Latis coming in with the right prediction. The problem with banning Zacian-C is the potential to snowball into more bans, Caly-S will be next but then maybe Zacian-H or Xern. What will check Yveltal and Zygarde once these mons are gone?

Whilst all of this is theoretical and Zacian-C is clearly on a power level above the rest of the tier, it is worth bearing in mind rather than just saying "Ban the broken dog". Ubers "does not ban based on brokenness" but rather competitiveness - if Zacian-C invalidates some aspects of competitive play then fair enough.

 

[gye5]

This is actually very relevant; if we keep banning things from the top of Ubers until we get to a point where it becomes OU, Ubers will cease to be a tier. The problem with banning things from Ubers is that broken does in fact check broken; removing Zacian-C will remove one more check to GeoXern and still force NDM to run physdef for Zacian-H as Orch said. Whilst Zacian-C is on a power level above the rest of the tier, there will always be a mon that sits at the top. Think Kyogre in DPP; specs could ohko most of the tier and, with chip, scarf could 2hko checks such as Latis coming in with the right prediction. The problem with banning Zacian-C is the potential to snowball into more bans, Caly-S will be next but then maybe Zacian-H or Xern. What will check Yveltal and Zygarde once these mons are gone?

Whilst all of this is theoretical and Zacian-C is clearly on a power level above the rest of the tier, it is worth bearing in mind rather than just saying "Ban the broken dog". Ubers "does not ban based on brokenness" but rather competitiveness - if Zacian-C invalidates some aspects of competitive play then fair enough.

I dont like your xerneas argument. Xy had to deal with xerneas with no dusk mane or magearna.
Zacian H is weak to steal. So pokemon like duskmane and dialga can deal with it. Kyogre got a new check in eterna tus (I dont use spe def sets, actually I like to use meteor beam sets but u get the point)
In conclusión banning Zacian is beneficial for the tier.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

This is actually very relevant; if we keep banning things from the top of Ubers until we get to a point where it becomes OU, Ubers will cease to be a tier. The problem with banning things from Ubers is that broken does in fact check broken; removing Zacian-C will remove one more check to GeoXern and still force NDM to run physdef for Zacian-H as Orch said. Whilst Zacian-C is on a power level above the rest of the tier, there will always be a mon that sits at the top. Think Kyogre in DPP; specs could ohko most of the tier and, with chip, scarf could 2hko checks such as Latis coming in with the right prediction. The problem with banning Zacian-C is the potential to snowball into more bans, Caly-S will be next but then maybe Zacian-H or Xern. What will check Yveltal and Zygarde once these mons are gone?

Whilst all of this is theoretical and Zacian-C is clearly on a power level above the rest of the tier, it is worth bearing in mind rather than just saying "Ban the broken dog". Ubers "does not ban based on brokenness" but rather competitiveness - if Zacian-C invalidates some aspects of competitive play then fair enough.

First of all, Ubers will never become OU given how many mons are banned from OU.

Xerneas was checked by Primal Groudon, NDM and Magearna; all of which were very viable back in Gen 7. Zacian-C is 'checked' by NDM (which always dies to Assurance + hazard) and more reliably by Quagsire (which is terrible). Zacian-C invalidates competitive play by it's stats alone (Adamant Zacian faster than Jolly Mewtwo, 0 speed Zacian faster than Max speed timid Palkia), and restricting a dangerous offensive mon like NDM to a pathetic wall which can be easily abused by Gothitelle. As mentioned in previous page, Reshiram has less than 3% usage despite being a good check to Zacian-C, shows how Zacian makes the meta uncompetitive due to lack of counterplay and restricted teambuilding, which makes the meta not fun to play. If we are to treat Ubers as a serious meta, then all comparison to OU must stop.

Necrozma DM has actually good sets with weakness policy, dragon dance, trick room all of which have been made near unusable because of
Zacian-C. The meta has become incredibly stale despite having 30+ box legendaries around.

 

[HanSoloIndie]

My thoughts on Zaican-C in DLC 2 as a member of the Ubers council:

The OP and several fellow council members have effectively communicated the reasoning for this suspect, primarily describing how the metagame currently responds to Zacian-C as a major offensive threat. However, there has yet to be substantial discussion on the two central points of the issue at play: the collateral associated with a Zacian-C ban and the extent to which Zacian-C influences the competitive edge and/or premise of play in Ubers.

It's worth briefly clarifying how we got here. The forum poll indicated that most participants were more interested in suspecting Calyrex-SR rather than Zacian-C. The reason Zacian-C is being tested first is because, for the most part, the Ubers council along with other tournament and high ladder players currently consider Zacian-C a greater issue than Calyrex-SR. It's also important to highlight that Ubers has very recently received a major change in its leadership and that a majority of the council has only recently gotten involved in Ubers tiering policy. Although to be expected and no fault of leadership, there is unfortunately an underrepresentation of older era Ubers players in current gen Ubers tiering, with but a single member on the council that has continuous experience in Ubers tiering for ~3+ years. This is merely to highlight how Ubers has reached this critical point in its tiering; the most major since the banning of Mega Rayquaza, and one that may likely shape its identity and relation to neighboring tiers even after its current players are gone.

When I started to get into competitive play, the reason I played Ubers is because its identity as a tier represents the pinacle of competitive singles Pokemon: a format that clauses out uncompetitive elements while minimizing aberration of the game we came here to play. Ubers began as merely a banlist for cover legends whose abilities were so potent that they invalidated the vast majority of Pokemon that were meant to be played with, but over time the tier gained enough of its own elements that it emerged as the new status quo. I'm reminded of a post dice made several years ago about how Ubers has long displaced the original spirit of OU, and now even AG has taken up the original mantle of Ubers. I'm also reminded of something jack m posted a very long time ago that remains as true as ever, which is that a state of "Ubers UU" will inevitably transition into a state identical to OU. It's unfortunate that such a novel concept is so frequently overlooked, but the short version is that if you tier for balance, you're following the same tiering policy as OU, and therefore the end state can only be identical to OU. Ubers' identity, by definition, is broken Pokemon. Ubers can only stay Ubers as long as it tiers against game elements that alter the competitive edge of play, not game elements that are simply broken or too good.

That is not to say that a ban of Zacian-C in of itself is a full realization of such a change in policy, nor has it even been concluded that the Zacian-C ban sentiment is motivated by brokeness rather than uncompetitiveness (although unfortunately it likely is for many of those who will be voting). But one very important question to consider is: at what point in banning Pokemon does Ubers actually cease to be Ubers. This cannot be overstated: there is collateral associated with banning Zacian-C. It could be considered perverse to ban a cover legend for being broken in a tier that was born from broken cover legends. It would also be disheartening if Ubers gave up its current position as the most inclusive competitive tier merely to become an aberration of OU. This consideration has made me recontextualize why I joined Ubers, and if I would do so again if the big new exciting Pokemon like Zacian, Calyrex, or even Yveltal weren't legal.

The other half of the argument is that Zacian-C alters the competitiveness of the tier, to such an extent that Zacian-C is a special case, and so much so that the gains in competitive play exceed the collateral associated with its ban. Zacian-C being a special case is important because otherwise tiering policy inevitably cascade bans, but with Calyrex-SR also on the table for a suspect this is put into question. It's clear that Zacian-C has a substantial impact on gameplay, but there's been a lack of discussion about the extent to which it influences player choices. Instead, most discussion is about how Zacian-C checks are limited, in viability or reliability, yet this is neither relevant to the central dilemma, nor something other Ubers gens don't already experience. With an exception for basic player enjoyment, it's not an issue if games hinge on the effectiveness to which Zacian-C is employed, but rather when interesting player choice is snuffed out by its very presence.

Impact on teambuilding is generally paramount, and tiers where it's not are the exception rather than the norm. A worst case scenario would be a Pokemon that creates a convergence in teambuilding such that there exists one and only one viable team. Ergo, because of the nature of such a Pokemon, there are no interesting choices to make in teambuilding because the game is already solved. Of course this is not the case for Zacian-C, but degree matters, with tour and ladder usage being a natural starting point. Unfortunately these aren't very revealing, and despite there being a handful of highly potent offensive threats within a metagame that has comparatively limited reactive checks and defensive role compressors, a pool of game elements comparable in diversity to other Ubers gens are still utilized in serious play.

The fact remains there are skilled players that do not enjoy the impact Zacian-C has on Ubers, and it seems to come down to the premise of gameplay. More specifically, I think some players don't enjoy the fact that Ubers currently has a lot of emphasis placed on mitigating and utilizing Zacian-C. I think this problem is further compounded by the fact that Zacian-C operates more like a splashable RK / cleaner that's really hard to punish rather than a conventional setup sweeper or beatstick offensive threat. Just as with Dynamax, both the ladder and tournament games show that a competitive game remains with or without it, and while I argued that Dynamax reduced competitive edge due to the nature of its mechanics, I must admit I'm not nearly as convinced with Zacian-C. Either way players have already been given the choice: either they want to play with Zacian-C or they don't, because there's little point in playing a game you don't enjoy.


I thought it essential for this thread to have at least one post that really focused on the central issues, and to represent an articulated viewpoint on Ubers tiering policy and anti-ban arguments which are sorely underrepresented. But perhaps the single most important takeaway I want to leave with is that Ubers is Ubers with or without something like Baton Pass or Dynamax, but I'm not so sure (in the long run at least) the same can be said for Zacian or Calyrex.

(Just as a disclaimer, I myself started to explore competitive Ubers and AG back in Gen 7, so I humbly admit I don't have the experience of you and other competitive veterans, and I respect you and your opinion.)

Perhaps another way to look at this potential issue is like this: We both agree that AG as a place where UNCOMPETITIVE elements go but Ubers as a place where BROKEN elements go. Ubers is a banlist for the broken, AG is a banlist for the uncompetitive. What justifies Zacian-Crowned to be suspected in the first place? To me at least, a "broken element" (whether by mechanic, Pokemon, etc.) goes like this:
- The element in question clearly overcentralizes the meta around it.
- The element in question gatekeeps all other Pokemon from fulfilling the same or similar role the element dominates in, leaving no competition.
- Mons and sets that are normally not viable are now suddenly viable to solely counter/check the element in question.
- The element in question forces the lack of teambuilder choice and freedom.
On the other hand, a "uncompetitive element" goes like this for me:
- The element in question lowers the skill curve of beating a entire team.
- Victory of games are determined on who gets the the element in question out first or set up first.
- Increases RNG factors determining the outcome of the match.
(There's more conditions I could add for each category, but these are often the most cited points)

Let's take Dynamax as an example. It clearly qualified as broken, satisfying all of the conditions, and also qualifies all of the conditions for being uncompetitive. Therefore, it doesn't upset the status quo of the Ubers tiering system, and is banished to AG, the uncompetitive hellscape.

Zacian-Crowned easily qualifies as broken, even within the power level of Ubers. But to me, Zacian-C only certainly qualifies for the first condition of uncompeitiveness (I tried my best to explain in the previous thread how Intrepid Sword + Zacian-Crowned + freely choosing moves lowers the skill curve in breaking mons and teams). So does that itself invalidate Zacian-Crowned going to AG, from a philosophical standpoint?

Yes and no.​

If the community decides to have a strict interpretation of what goes to AG, in the name of preserving the integrity of what Ubers is, there are positive and negative consequences. Zacian-Crowned and/or Calyrex-Shadow-Rider isn't banned. Ubers is still "Ubers". The definition of Ubers did not change. You really explained these implications and such in your above post well and I agree that banning stuff from a tier already designed to house the broken should be taken with caution.

On the flipside, not taking action against Zacian-Crowned and/or Calyrex-Shadow-Rider can further alienate potential new players from playing seriously and old players from re-joining to contribute, stifling the Ubers community. Sure, not banning them could invite more potential players to abuse them, find creative checks and counters for them, and be a net positive on the player base. But, I find it hard to believe a person would be invested into this tier if they constantly had to build teams just to beat them in the long-term. This concerns me as a newer player. I want to see the Ubers community and meta grow and evolve, not decline and be stale.

But if the community decides to have a (bit) more open-minded interpretation of what goes to AG, I personally believe that the Ubers tier will grow for the better. Yes, the community potentially gets rid of two mons that seem to eclipse other "broken" mons and box-cover legends. However, I also believe that if an element is on a whole other power level than everything else in a tier already designed to house the broken, then we are likely treading into uncompetitive territory. I stated above that Zacian-Crowned is broken but not entirely uncompetitive. But it still has elements of uncompeitiveness. And with this open-mindedness the Ubers community can always be more willing to re-introduce it/them into the tier if the Ubers community deems them no longer uncompetitive.

Common anti-Dynamax ban arguments included that "well, we have to find the most optimal strategy to counter it", and "well, we'll have to find the most optimal Pokémon to Dynamax" , and it goes on. But none of that shields it from the fact that Dynamax was both broken and had uncompetitive elements, and therefore needed to be banned from Ubers. If Zacian-Crowned is deemed broken and has some but not all uncompetitive elements, then is it really that much of a hoop to jump?

There's a reason why people are (at least now) not really deeming mons like Kygore or Xerneas worthy of a suspect to AG but rather Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Shadow Tag users (looking at you Gothitelle). Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Shadow Tag users lower the skill curve to break a team, while the other two are centralizing offensive threats. And even if Calyrex-Shadow-Rider and Shadow Tag are banned, it becomes incredibly hard to identify Kygore or Xerneas having uncompetitive elements. It still takes noticeable amounts of skill to use them effectively without drawbacks.

That's just my reasoning why I am more optimistic for Ubers in banning Zacian-Crowned to AG. Sure, I don't like it being more broken in a broken tier, but the bigger reason it being it having uncompetitive elements that worsen the tier. Anyways, thank you for posting a really good counter-point to weighing the pros and cons of banning Zacian-Crowned! It gave me some good food for thought, and I hope can manage to get reqs to vote!

 

[faint]

What about Ditto? If a Zacian-C Has Close Combat I just KO the enemy Zacian in one hit. I don't see the issue.

what exactly are you asking about ditto? it is a check to many mons, sure, but it does not make zacian any less good than it already is. plus, some zacian spreads are optimized to live a +2 CC at full, so the slower zacian can often come out on top. additionally, what do you do when you you're locked into CC and calyrex comes out? if ditto is always your revenge killer, you're effectively always one turn behind.

 

[Manaphy]

I was not expecting a massive amount of reactions to my post. It is clear that pro-banners have strong feelings about this pokemon, and I respect that. However, please recognize that it's possible for other people to not agree with you. I will be focusing on the practical side of discussion, as that Minority has made an excellent post covering why it's philosophically wrong to ban Zacian-C.

It seems like people are not contesting the point that banning Zacian-C will not improve the competitiveness of Ubers. From my observations in MW games and Ubers Championships, the better players overwhelmingly have the dominion over the worse players.

I think the most important point to discuss is the #2 point. This is the most contested point that I raised. I do realize that fun is endlessly subjective, and I understand that a lot of people get different things out of this game. Some of the most common arguments for banning Zacian-C will make Ubers more fun are:

1) It will ease the teambuilding restrictions which will lead more fun teambuilding experience.
I do not agree with this because it is fun and interesting to approach game with such as an overpowered yet competitive threat. The experience reminds me of excitement and enjoyment that I had when I was building teams to defeat Geomancy Xerneas in XY. Sure, the threat is massive, and it's equally massively rewarding experience to tower over it.

Manaphy actually wrote a in-depth excellent post about all sort of possible checks/counters for Zacian-C. It made me realize just how much variety and diversity is possible in this metagame. It also provides spotlight for previously unused/extreme fringe pokemon such as Dugtrio, Quagsire, and Ditto. It's a beautiful thing to see when the top predator is able to increase the diversity of game.

The last point that I want to raise is the perverse outcome that's quite likely to occur. It's extremely unlikely that the basic structures would change as a result of Zacian-C being banned because Zacian-H and Xerneas would simply take its place as partner for Calyrex-S. More on this in meta worsening discussion.

2) Games will become more fun/interesting when a powerful offensive tool is removed from the game.
Yes, Zacian-C is a powerful pokemon. Nobody is denying that. I really like how it's possible to use a powerful, fast, and bulky pokemon well to get my wins. Is it unfair? I don't think so. Anyone playing Ubers have equal access to such as a powerful tool. It's up to them to use it well and skillfully to win. From what I have seen from SS games, they are entertaining and fun. I find Zacian-C smashing through pokemon to be enjoyable. I also like how Zacian-C is able to tank unexpected attacks with its bulk and punish the weaker pokemons.

The third point that I raised is that banning Zacian-C will worsen the metagame. Here's why:

I also think that Zacian-H has potential to be even more toxic than Zacian-C because of its variance in item slot. How would you feel if your lovely hand-crafted sticky team got invalidated by a simple HDB Zacian-H? Your balance team by a LO Zacian-H (Btw, this is stronger than Zacian-C you kekkers)? The possibilities are endless. The only reason that Zacian-H isn't so crazy good is because of the existence of powerful fairy resist pokemon that's faster than Zacian-H that also gives an opportunity cost for using Zacian-H. Power Herb for Quagsire and Groudon. Lum for TWave checks. It goes on.

In my opinion, the banning of Zacian-C will lead to a series of toxic cycles of volatile Zacian-H trends trying to cheese players' most commonly used archetypes with the massive variance in item slot. It will lead to a perverse outcome of trying to reduce match up only to exacerbate it to even more ridiculous degree.

This is a good post. However, I think the analysis that Zacian-H will just replace Zacian-C is a flawed one. Here's why:

-Zacian-H has to rely on items to get the same power as Zacian-C. Banded sets are reliant on prediction, LO sets have their own recoil. This is important as it allows Necrozma-DM to run Boots fairly easily. A big part of why Zacian-C was dumb was because you never knew it's set and it could punish your team's chosen NDM set hard if you just happened to have the wrong one.
-Zacian-H does not have the same defensive utility has Zacian-C. Notably losing the Steel typing is fairly big and for teambuilding you lose a Xerneas check, which you'll want to have at least two of usually. The reliance on items also limits your defensive utility and you are taking more damage from rocks.
-the lowered speed doesn't seem too relevant however it means if you, for example, choose to run Adamant then you are at risk of losing to LO Eternatus Sludge Bomb and other things.
-lack of toxic/toxic spikes immunity is a big deal as well

It IS true that people will still have to run Defensive NDM more than they might have expected. If the idea was "Zacian-C is banned so I don't have to run defensive NDM anymore!", this was always a mistaken idea in the beginning. In the first place, the mon is somewhat of a necessary evil on a lot of teams due to providing a Xerneas check + rocks + check to things like Caly-I and Etern + status spreader, etc etc. I think more importantly, the gameplay aspect will be very much improved, as before where you had to hope you had the right item for Zacian + Zacian could just fish for luck, now you have Zacian-H needing to predict well to get results.

 

[Lady Gaga]

i think that restrictive or tight metagames are the most competitive. at least you probably know what to expect from your opponent. the more options you have, the more ways you can get cheesed. i think the metagame being centered around zacian-c, carlyex-s, and their check/counters is a great way to prevent that from happening.

 

[TheTraininator]

This is a good post. However, I think the analysis that Zacian-H will just replace Zacian-C is a flawed one. Here's why:

-Zacian-H has to rely on items to get the same power as Zacian-C. Banded sets are reliant on prediction, LO sets have their own recoil. This is important as it allows Necrozma-DM to run Boots fairly easily. A big part of why Zacian-C was dumb was because you never knew it's set and it could punish your team's chosen NDM set hard if you just happened to have the wrong one.
-Zacian-H does not have the same defensive utility has Zacian-C. Notably losing the Steel typing is fairly big and for teambuilding you lose a Xerneas check, which you'll want to have at least two of usually. The reliance on items also limits your defensive utility and you are taking more damage from rocks.
-the lowered speed doesn't seem too relevant however it means if you, for example, choose to run Adamant then you are at risk of losing to LO Eternatus Sludge Bomb and other things.
-lack of toxic/toxic spikes immunity is a big deal as well

It IS true that people will still have to run Defensive NDM more than they might have expected. If the idea was "Zacian-C is banned so I don't have to run defensive NDM anymore!", this was always a mistaken idea in the beginning. In the first place, the mon is somewhat of a necessary evil on a lot of teams due to providing a Xerneas check + rocks + check to things like Caly-I and Etern + status spreader, etc etc. I think more importantly, the gameplay aspect will be very much improved, as before where you had to hope you had the right item for Zacian + Zacian could just fish for luck, now you have Zacian-H needing to predict well to get results.

I agree with all of this, but I also want to supplement that I think this ties back into the “broken vs uncompetitive” argument quite nicely in that Zacian-H is probably a lot more “competitive” than Zacian-C. Yes it can hit comparably hard to Zacian-H, but by requiring an item with a nerf effect to do while also losing its Steel typing, it introduces more counterplay in a way that makes it more “competitive” because you have to be more clever with using it to get the same effect, which in other words will reward skilled players even more in relation to nonskilled players and will simultaneously make people feel less frustrated at the meta due to feeling that if they lost to Zacian-H, they just failed to properly take advantage of its choice lock or didn’t adequately take advantage of its Life Orb chip.

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

i think that restrictive or tight metagames are the most competitive. at least you probably know what to expect from your opponent. the more options you have, the more ways you can get cheesed. i think the metagame being centered around zacian-c, carlyex-s, and their check/counters is a great way to prevent that from happening.

So you'd rather be cheesed harder by Zacian-Crowned or some of the bullshit it enables than cheesed by something you could actually reasonably counter if Zacian-C didn't force the metagame to revolve around it?? Because as is, checking Zacian-C practically forces you to go into one of two specific mons, which can be easily exploited (Switching into Quagsire as my Zacian attacks? Well, sucks to be you, because I just went into Gothitelle while your Quag had to recover, and your Quagsire is finished, as it struggles to knock Gothitelle out, while I'm free to PP stall it until it kills itself from Struggle. Granted, this has nothing to do with Zacian, but this is what is enabled because Goth + Zacian-Crowned is uncompetitive as fuck). Especially since even Necrozma-DM isn't guaranteed to be able to hold off Zacian (not to mention hazard damage makes it easier for Zacian to break it).

TL;DR Zacian-C devolves the game into "Who Can Eliminate Their Opponent's Zacian-C Checks First?".

Unlike Dynamax that was a stupid broken mechanic, this feels like it’s just people not admitting that an Uber threat is a huge threat but can be deal with. I’m positive that what people consider to be the best set ( Play Rough, CC, Wild Charge, Assurance) can be used with regular Zacian and it will do the same. Just will lack the steel typing.

The issue with that is that Zacian is significantly weaker, as well as somewhat slower. Also, it can be poisoned, lose its item, doesn't resist Stealth Rock, needs to use items with downsides to be as effective as Zacian-C... you get the picture. Dealing with Zacian-C is pretty much unreasonable, and even if you do take it out, odds are by then it did so much damage you are gonna lose anyway.

 

[Lady Gaga]

So you'd rather be cheesed harder by Zacian-Crowned or some of the bullshit it enables than cheesed by something you could actually reasonably counter if Zacian-C didn't force the metagame to revolve around it?? Because as is, checking Zacian-C practically forces you to go into one of two specific mons, which can be easily exploited (Switching into Quagsire as my Zacian attacks? Well, sucks to be you, because I just went into Gothitelle while your Quag had to recover, and your Quagsire is finished, as it struggles to knock Gothitelle out, while I'm free to PP stall it until it kills itself from Struggle. Granted, this has nothing to do with Zacian, but this is what is enabled because Goth + Zacian-Crowned is uncompetitive as fuck). Especially since even Necrozma-DM isn't guaranteed to be able to hold off Zacian (not to mention hazard damage makes it easier for Zacian to break it).

TL;DR Zacian-C devolves the game into "Who Can Eliminate Their Opponent's Zacian-C Checks First?".

your argument is based around the assumption that your team either has quag or is goth prone to begin with. not all teams are like this. as a matter of fact, not all teams even run zacian-c. many teams carry multiple solutions for zacian-c as they would with any major threat in the meta. players must also understand that using zacian-c is a liability in itself because not only can they expect their opponent to be prepared for it, zacian-c users can end up biting themselves in the ass because it enables threats like a revenge killing ditto or swagkeys + revenge killing ditto. as for necrozma-dm, we must not act as if it's only function is to beat zacian-c. necrozma-dm is able to beat many other threats as well as being your stealth rocker or maybe even a toxic staller. that along with other zacian-c solutions would contribute to defeating zacian-c and other threats in the process.

 

[Joseph Gomes]

your argument is based around the assumption that your team either has quag or is goth prone to begin with. not all teams are like this. as a matter of fact, not all teams even run zacian-c. many teams carry multiple solutions for zacian-c as they would with any major threat in the meta. players must also understand that using zacian-c is a liability in itself because not only can they expect their opponent to be prepared for it, zacian-c users can end up biting themselves in the ass because it enables threats like a revenge killing ditto or swagkeys + revenge killing ditto. as for necrozma-dm, we must not act as if it's only function is to beat zacian-c. necrozma-dm is able to beat many other threats as well as being your stealth rocker or maybe even a toxic staller. that along with other zacian-c solutions would contribute to defeating zacian-c and other threats in the process.

You can check the usage stats because your assertion is wrong. Also vast majority of NDM sets are defensive so that it doesn't get destroyed by Assurance or Crunch on the switch. Ditto is an issue because of Zacian-C, nobody would ever use Ditto in Ubers without Zacian-C or Calyrex-SR.

 

[gye5]

The issue right is that to have a viable team u need a Zacian answer, calyrex answer and kyogre. Zacian invalidates many answer to other threats, making the top players running similar types of teams (no joking, there is no variety) at least banning Zacian will make other threats more managable and dusk mane not always running phys def and quag dying out.

You can check the usage stats because your assertion is wrong. Also vast majority of NDM sets are defensive so hat it doesn't get destroyed by Assurance or Crunch in the switch. Ditto is an issue because of Zacian-C, nobody would ever use Ditto in Ubers without Zacian-C or Calyrex-SR.

Not only that, that ditto is hard to keep in check after it copies Zacian or calyrex

 

[Levant Mir Celestia]

your argument is based around the assumption that your team either has quag or is goth prone to begin with. not all teams are like this. as a matter of fact, not all teams even run zacian-c. many teams carry multiple solutions for zacian-c as they would with any major threat in the meta. players must also understand that using zacian-c is a liability in itself because not only can they expect their opponent to be prepared for it, zacian-c users can end up biting themselves in the ass because it enables threats like a revenge killing ditto or swagkeys + revenge killing ditto. as for necrozma-dm, we must not act as if it's only function is to beat zacian-c. necrozma-dm is able to beat many other threats as well as being your stealth rocker or maybe even a toxic staller. that along with other zacian-c solutions would contribute to defeating zacian-c and other threats in the process.

The problem is that even Necrozma-DM is susceptible to being trapped and eliminated by Gothitelle. Case in point here. Icemaster got their Necrozma trapped by Gothitelle, and it was game over for them after that. Also, Ditto is an issue because Zacian-C is so frigging broken in the first place, and Swagkeys is not a reliable answer, as even aside from the fact that Swagger can miss, confusion only has a 1/3 chance for the mon to hit itself, which means odds are it's destroying you even harder. If Necrozma-DM is used against other threats, that means it's gonna struggle to hold off Zacian-C (as if it doesn't already, given that Assurance and Crunch are a thing)

 

[theotherguytm]

Want to know the difference between Zacian-C and Zacian-H? It's very simple:
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 142-168 (43.6 - 51.6%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Necrozma-Dusk-Mane Sunsteel Strike vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian: 284-336 (87.3 - 103.3%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Eternatus Sludge Bomb vs. Zacian-Crowned: 0-0 (0 - 0%) -- possibly the worst move ever
0 SpA Eternatus Sludge Bomb vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian: 236-282 (72.6 - 86.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock, ~25% chance to kill with poison damage (Etern also outspeeds Adamant Zacian-H)

The words "X mon has no counters" are used perhaps too much in modern Pokemon, and Ubers is no stranger to mons that have no counters. This doesn't mean they have no counterplay but that they have no single mon that reliably hard switches into them and handles all their sets.
But forget no counters, Zacian-C has an absurdly small list of checks. The entire list consists of Specs Cal-S, Ditto, Nec-DM most of the time (though it relies on moderately favourable rolls, parahax or Rocky Helmet chip to win) and Quagsire if you really really insist on losing to crits. That is pretty much the entire list of mons that beat Zacian-C 1v1. Even when you consider its full counterplay, without relying on formal checks and counters, the list is extremely short, for which I refer you to Manaphy's excellent post earlier. It's not just that it hits absurdly hard, redefines the entire speed tier list and has near-perfect coverage. It's things like this:
252+ Atk Life Orb Pheromosa Close Combat (stronger than Drill Run) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Zacian-Crowned: 257-304 (79 - 93.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
That make it truly absurd. Why should a mon this powerful be immune to revenge killing without significant effort? It is literally Mega Ray Version 2, only this time resisting Rocks rather than being weak to them, being immune to Poison, and not having to set up to get to over 650 ATK and 400 Spe.

But forget broken, is it uncompetitive?
Yes. Beyond doubt. Having to choose which Zacian-C you lose to in the builder with Nec-DM's item is pretty much the definition of uncompetitive. Even ignoring the whole separate issue of trapping (which Zacian-C, having the fewest checks of any mon, is best-placed to abuse), Zacian-C wins games on matchup instantly if it has the right move (Assurance, Crunch or SD), forces games to come down to speed ties with other Zacian-C, and generally invalidates skilful play with a single crit on your defensive mon at any point. I'm aware crits are just part of the game, but a single crit for Zacian-C is usually an instant win for that player. No other mon in Ubers performs in such a deadly, unforgiving manner after a single crit on a check. Even Cal-S struggles to break Yveltal with crits. Compare:
252 SpA Choice Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Yveltal on a critical hit: 192-227 (42.1 - 49.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
+1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Necrozma-Dusk-Mane on a critical hit: 240-283 (60.3 - 71.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
One of these requires a Choice lock and does less damage than Roost heals off. The other KOs the switch-in next turn.

So to conclude, Zacian-C is very clearly uncompetitive, overly restricting on player freedom, and generally oppressive. Does this mean skilful games aren't possible with Zacian-C in the tier? No it doesn't. No-one is arguing that things banned from Ubers take away all the skill involved in the game, or there wouldn't be such a thing as a skilful AG player. What people are saying is Zacian-C reduces the threshold for player skill in Ubers significantly by:
1. Being so effective at its role that the teambuilder on both sides is heavily restricted by how good it is (overcentralising, not banworthy in Ubers)
2. Being so much better than other mons that not using it puts you at a disadvantage (broken, not banworthy in Ubers)
3. Being able win games on matchup by the opponent not having the correct counter, and said counter is very weak against other threats (Uncompetitive, see Baton Pass)
4. Forcing repeated "coin toss" situations with its lack of checks outside itself (hence speed ties) and ability to cheese almost all of its checks with a "surprise" move. (Uncompetitive)
5. Being able to routinely win games against otherwise superior play with a single Critical Hit on an otherwise fair check at any point. (Very Uncompetitive)
All of this makes Zacian-Crowned the second Pokemon to be banworthy from Ubers. Thank you for reading.

 

[FearNeverDies]

People complaing about past gens and forget that in the past metas broken mons still have a decent amount of checks/counters to deal with them.
No mention than most part of the top tier ubers(Kyogre,E Killer, Xerneas and PGroudon) they still have weakness and counterplay. Most part of they need to be play well in order to secure the win in the game, Don lacks on recovery, Ogre depends on scarf to outspeed the meta and most importante, all of this depends on set up in order to start to be dangerous in the game.
Zacian crowned is a low risk high reward legendary, you dont lose nothing to spam SD cause you win the speed tie against almost all the relevant tier. Also you dont need to worry about losing speed tie cause you could have the bulky (Or the enemy lack on propper coverage) to survive at least one hit from full health (Against pheromosa or even Calyrex S). I dont think Zacian Ban goes against the Uber tier, without steel type and the item slot to think in your sets open, the meta to be less opressive with the players.
As they said in the early post, Zacian-H have more weakness and definitely more counterplay than Zacian Crowned. No inmunity against toxic, no defensive utility (Without steel type) and most important: Needs to choice a propper item in order to deal something against the enemy team makes the idea of baning Zacian Crowned really atractive.
Zacian-H is more close to the Ubers standars. Most part of the players forget that without the steel type,DM can use sunstel strike to kill Zacian and Xerneas even without invesment and you can still using TW to punish other switchs.
And, the most important, without zacian in the tier, is more easy to spam Knock off in order to punish offensive switchs, breakers and even defensive plays (Like remove Leftovers or Heavy dutty boots).
Zacian Crowned invalidate alot of dangerous stuff in the tier without any defensive invesment and it can still beat defensive mons just with Hax.
Zacian Crowned is a banworthy pokemon and the tier is gonna be better and it could star to evolve in something with diversity and no just "Zacian crowned beats the entire tier and you cant punish she without random scarfs ussers or extremly passive mons"

 

[Fc]

Responding to just a few posts I've seen here, I do think there's a lot of good points being made and it's a good open discussion, but I disagree with a few things and would like to at least provide the other side of the argument for some.

I personally agree with what Orch has said.

While I find Zacian to be extremely powerful, i have learned my way to deal with it. Ubers is a tier where all biggest threats are supposed to compete, and I see no issue whatsoever in one or two being dominant. Unlike Mega Rayquaza, you should point out that Zacian can’t hold an item, the only benefit from that is to take easy the Knock off from Yveltal, but you anyway wouldn’t switch in risking to take a lot from foul play.

I do believe that Zacian works really well as a cleaner and breaker. I find that to be good. People complain on having to run HDB/Rocky Helmet Necrozma Dusk-Mane, but when DM was used spe def during previous genrerations just to beat GeoXern, nobody was saying it was a concern at all. It’s literally the same as Clefable in OU that changes the bulk it needs to check what it needs to.

We’re almost certainly going to ban Zacian, then Calyrex ( for some reasons, people were okay running Phy def Yveltal to beat Ekiller, but are not okay running spe def for Calyrex?!), then people are going to complain that GeoXern is busted, that Zygarde is busted etc. Some teams are designed in a passive way and some are made offensive, it’s normal to run the appropriate checks when you’re running a slow team, and normal to be forced to sack something to get in your own threat while running offense.

I don’t mind Zacian leaving the tier, if there was actually a possibility to abstain from saying ban or no ban I would chose this one.

Unlike Dynamax that was a stupid broken mechanic, this feels like it’s just people not admitting that an Uber threat is a huge threat but can be deal with. I’m positive that what people consider to be the best set ( Play Rough, CC, Wild Charge, Assurance) can be used with regular Zacian and it will do the same. Just will lack the steel typing.

I understand the sentiment here, I think it's a legitimate point of view people can have, but I believe it's missing the mark a bit. People have found their way to deal with Zacian-C sure, I think I've done alright at it as well, but it's through the use of extremely finnicky methods, some of which even mega rayquaza had. Fast wisp arceus, shuca fp ttar, skarm + mgar, etc. all had a chance at beating mega ray as they could live some hits or revenge it back, but they all had fairly easy counterplay from the mega rayquaza side, amplified by its ability to hold an item. I won't pretend to have played when mega ray was around so I'll leave it at that, but everything has ways of dealing with it, just to most people even by ubers standards Zacian-C doesn't have reliable enough ones for how bulky, fast, and versatile it is even without an item because it's ability is basically a choice band with no drawbacks already. You'll see sun teams with Zacian literally 2hko'ing the entire relevant meta, since adamant fire fang does so to necrozma dusk mane 96% of the time, and quagsire drops to solar blade.

I agree with the part about Calyrex, I still personally believe it's way too overhyped in terms of strength and doesn't meet the standards ubers should have for its bans, but it's hard to change that opinion with such a strong mon as the topic. Yveltal works reliably, and I think that's the difference with Zacian-C, nothing's reliable enough.

I don't like the argument about stuff like geo xern, zygarde, etc. going down a slippery slope because there will always be people that complain, but I think currently those both have reliable answers in the meta, and Zacian-C going which isn't the best xern check already since it loses to some chip will break xern since there's still dusk mane, ho-oh/lugia, blissey, ditto, scarf caly (ideally if it stays) etc, and as long as xern's around with other checks I think zygarde will never be broken as well. There has to be a line set somewhere, and I think Zacian-C should be pretty much it.

I don't disagree that dominance in the meta is bad either, but the level of dominance is what has to be discussed, whether or not it's to an unhealthy point, especially as we evolve our tiering system to allow for tests like these.

This is actually very relevant; if we keep banning things from the top of Ubers until we get to a point where it becomes OU, Ubers will cease to be a tier. The problem with banning things from Ubers is that broken does in fact check broken; removing Zacian-C will remove one more check to GeoXern and still force NDM to run physdef for Zacian-H as Orch said. Whilst Zacian-C is on a power level above the rest of the tier, there will always be a mon that sits at the top. Think Kyogre in DPP; specs could ohko most of the tier and, with chip, scarf could 2hko checks such as Latis coming in with the right prediction. The problem with banning Zacian-C is the potential to snowball into more bans, Caly-S will be next but then maybe Zacian-H or Xern. What will check Yveltal and Zygarde once these mons are gone?

Whilst all of this is theoretical and Zacian-C is clearly on a power level above the rest of the tier, it is worth bearing in mind rather than just saying "Ban the broken dog". Ubers "does not ban based on brokenness" but rather competitiveness - if Zacian-C invalidates some aspects of competitive play then fair enough.

Touched upon this above a bit, but I don't think the argument where things slowly start spiraling to more bans is a good one at all. Since Zacian-C is largely being tested due to the power level and lack of reliable counterplay and it took a while for it to even reach this level since dynamax had to be gone, I doubt that anything will realistically match its current potency in the meta to deserve a test, if anything Calyrex-S which ideally gets easier to handle if Zacian-C goes, but past that everything still has reliable enough counterplay to warrent no suspects. Zacian-H is just objectively worse Zacian-C but it can hold an item so it has more power, but that power likely doesn't make up for what it loses, but we'll see, I just doubt it'll be a problem. Xern has always had much better checks than Zacian-C with stuff listed in the above response, and I just don't think that should be problematic to the point where a ban in ubers is needed. The ideology before this suspect left the tier with no border at which we could ban stuff at the top such as that Kyogre argument, but I think as the power level reaches these heights then things will have to be done, and Zacian-C is the first casualty of that, and imo ideally the only one outside of Gothitelle which is for a whole other set of reasons. As a tier we have to decide where to cut things off, and I think that we won't let the snowball effect happen since there has to be a line drawn somewhere, and it's not hard to stop at Zacian-C because arguably nothing comes close. I can't speak for the rest of the tiering council's thoughts on this matter because it's a very weird one in terms of how bans are dealt with, but from my point of view I think ubers should stick to having minimal bans, but Zacian-C is pretty much necessary to improve the quality of the meta which a large portion of people dislike.

I think that ubers not banning on brokenness is an outdated concept, but also a highly debated one. It's arguable whether mega rayquaza started the banning of broken things, or if was simply uncompetitive due to its power, or both. I think realistically it's both, and it opened the ability for tiering to evolve in ubers. Looking at what looks to be the most recent tiering policy discussion where that was the only topic it shows that things ended with uncertainty in how things will be handled in the future, and I think the concept of banning off of something being broken was already open as a possibility and again arguably happened with mega rayquaza which lacked defensive answers. If you wanted to argue Zacian-C was uncompetitive because it has 0 reliable switch ins and everything can theoretically be ohko'd/2hko'd that's also reasonable, but I think the concept of banning off of something being broken will never go away fully for the playerbase, especially as power creep reaches these new levels where the top current offensive threats both have 148+ speed and 165+ in their attacking stats. This post dealing with the farceus situation which had its own tiering complications argues in favour of the concept of banning based upon things being broken now being a part of ubers, and while we still have to figure out truly what the identity of ubers wants to be, I think there's solid proof that we have and can ban things based on it being broken.

your argument is based around the assumption that your team either has quag or is goth prone to begin with. not all teams are like this. as a matter of fact, not all teams even run zacian-c. many teams carry multiple solutions for zacian-c as they would with any major threat in the meta. players must also understand that using zacian-c is a liability in itself because not only can they expect their opponent to be prepared for it, zacian-c users can end up biting themselves in the ass because it enables threats like a revenge killing ditto or swagkeys + revenge killing ditto. as for necrozma-dm, we must not act as if it's only function is to beat zacian-c. necrozma-dm is able to beat many other threats as well as being your stealth rocker or maybe even a toxic staller. that along with other zacian-c solutions would contribute to defeating zacian-c and other threats in the process.

If a team wants to reliably defensively check Zacian-C, there's an extremely high chance it's either Gothitelle weak or hazard weak. Teams can carry multiple Zacian-C checks, but none as reliable enough to the point where stacking them will always help in a long game. Putting on like 2 helmet mons that can live some 2 hits from Zacian-C since nothing lives 2 of every hit that's viable and reliable is one of the best ways, but you can still get muscled through like in this game from circuit finals, where a Zacian-C got 3 kills against a team with Necrozma dusk mane, Phys.def helmet Groudon, Ho-oh, Ferrothorn, and a revenge killer in Calyrex-S, which seems very solid against it since there's like 3 of the standard checks and a revenge killer then ferro which resists 2 hits from standard 4 attacks and is neutral to 1. Stacking checks doesn't work always, and this is clearly a level of preparation higher than for any other threat in the meta, and it's still able to lose.

Using Zacian-C can basically never be called a liability, that's like saying pdon is a liability because people prep for it and stuff like coil Zygarde can spread glare and set up. Ditto loses 1v1 to standard sets now with 4 attacks, and klefki is an unviable mon that will only work if it hits swagger, doesn't get the confusion that swagger is meant to cause, then ditto comes in and the opponent doesn't have a quagsire, and if they don't it likely just gets 1 kill then a resist can come into the move ditto locks into. I do agree necrozma has uses outside of beating Zacian-C because it can eat some really nice hits, it's issue is that it isn't even a reliable way to beat Zacian-C, since assurance beats it, weather weakens its healing, boots means it doesn't force progress when taking hits, and anything without fast boots twave and earthquake can just get sd'd on and lose if it isn't 4 attacks, and it needs to be at full while all this happens otherwise it can get 2hko'd at 90+%.

The entire list consists of Specs Cal-S, Ditto, Nec-DM most of the time (though it relies on moderately favourable rolls, parahax or Rocky Helmet chip to win) and Quagsire if you really really insist on losing to crits. That is pretty much the entire list of mons that beat Zacian-C 1v1.

I find this funny because with current sets investing into defense a lot, Calyrex-S and Ditto can both just fail to OHKO Zacian-C in a 1v1 and lose quite easily. Dusk mane and quagsire points stand, since it has those 2 as the main reliable switch ins that lose to the things mentioned there as well as sun teams. The list you gave was really small already but just simple advancements into spreads for Zacian shrink it even more.

Didn't respond to everyone with arguments against Zacian but I figure these were some important main ones to look at, since the crowd of people not fully supporting a ban is small. I still stick to the belief that Zacian-C needs to be banned, taking out the subjectivity of me liking using Zacian as well, because I don't believe it's a good mon for the meta to develop, and at the very least ideally improves the mindset that many people have about the meta which is generally very low opinions.

 

[JT Yao]

i think that restrictive or tight metagames are the most competitive. at least you probably know what to expect from your opponent. the more options you have, the more ways you can get cheesed. i think the metagame being centered around zacian-c, carlyex-s, and their check/counters is a great way to prevent that from happening.

I am interested to know what makes you think that? I’d say that DLC2 Ubers has been the furthest thing from competitive in a long time, nor is it an interesting meta. Zacian-C is ridiculously oppressive, and finding niche ways of beating it such as Helmet Corviknight + Dugtrio or running Defensive Helmet Don doesn’t significantly help improve stability of the meta, especially when you invest so much time and effort to check this one threat that you inevitably end up losing to a bunch of other offensive threats like Zekrom and Groudon, or defensive threats like Ferrothorn (see my game 2 vs Baconeatinassassin).

Personally, I’m not sure whether I’ll actually be voting this time because I don’t know how to feel about Zacian-C. If I were to vote though, I’d lean toward banning it. Yes, I do think it’s very unhealthy (almost broken and certainly uncompetitive) but at the same time, if Zacian-C goes then so must other oppressive threats to the builder. After securing a 0-3 record in MW, excluding my Game 1, I used Zacian twice. The amount of time I made sure to prep for opposing Zacian made my teams ridiculously weak to Calyrex-SR. And this is where one of the main problems lies with Zacian. You can invest a lot of time trying to check Zacian, using NDM + secondary checks or using the more niche options listed above, but you make yourself significantly weaker to Calyrex. And the converse holds true. If you use an ideal team where you have NDM/Yveltal/Kyogre Check/Secondary Zacian Check/Secondary Calyrex Check/Free Slot, you may have only one breaker left, which ultimately makes the team too passive, not to mention depending on the mons picked, weak to Ferrothorn, Gothitelle, Groudon, Kyogre, Xerneas, Zekrom, or Zygarde. After building a bunch for MW, a significant portion of my teams ended up being too passive, and that’s because I focused too much of my attention trying to check Zacian.

The tier will eventually lose Zacian, and while this won’t significantly change the composition of teams, I do think it is a step in the right direction for the tier to become more competitive (although Calyrex-S still centralizes is the meta around itself). Without getting too much to Calyrex, I will say that I find myself in the minority but Calyrex isn’t nearly as broken or uncompetitive as Zacian is at the moment.

 

[theotherguytm]

I find this funny because with current sets investing into defense a lot, Calyrex-S and Ditto can both just fail to OHKO Zacian-C in a 1v1 and lose quite easily. Dusk mane and quagsire points stand, since it has those 2 as the main reliable switch ins that lose to the things mentioned there as well as sun teams. The list you gave was really small already but just simple advancements into spreads for Zacian shrink it even more.

So each of Swords Dance, Crunch and Assurance has one different check each, and Curse Quagsire is a (bad) counter to them all if and only if at full health with no status or Spikes up. Nice.

Agree on the Cal-S situation atm, all the replays I've seen in this thread have mostly featured it clicking Aromatherapy. Without Dynamax it needs good play and patience to break Yveltal, and I'm yet to see that happen because Zac-C just usually breaks teams before that can happen. Whether Yveltal being 100% mandatory on teams is good for the game or not is another debate entirely, but Cal-S is mostly bottled up for now. Does anyone have a replay of Cal-S successfully beating SpD Yveltal? EDIT: Found this I guess.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8ubers-1254741361-xf0kt0v8z5dlh7fy6mr79qxhnua5iajpw

 

[TrueNora]

Ever since the start of SS Ubers, Zacian-Crowned has been a top-tier Pokemon in every single iteration of the metagame, only getting better as more Pokemon were added and changes were implemented. After starting as an A+ rank threat in the Pre-Home VR, it has been S ranked in every VR, being at the top for every VR past Pre-Home. For this post, I'll discuss how Zacian-Crowned performed in major iterations of the SS Ubers metagame and some of the popular counter-play and limiting factors for it before talking about my opinion on Zacian-Crowned in the current metagame.

In the Pre-Home metagame, Zacian-Crowned was threatening but not the best Pokemon in the tier. Although it could 2HKO the vast majority with the appropriate attack, the tier only had three Ubers Pokemon being Zacian, Zamamazenta, and Eternatus, which allowed for more room in the teambuilder to check it. Additionally, Pokemon resistant to steel such as Rotom-Heat could Dynamax and beat it in a pinch (this continued to hold true until the Dynamax Ban). It also preferred to run Jolly to speed-tie vs opposing Zacian-Crowned, notably outspeed +1 Speed Gyarados, and for general speed control (the trend of mostly preferring Jolly continued until the DLC2 metagame). As for counter-play, it was held back by four main answers: Rocky Helmet Corviknight + Arena Trap Dugtrio, Sand Rush Excadrill, Unaware Quagsire, and Choice Scarf Ditto. Corviknight + Dugtrio was arguably the easiest way to safely remove Zacian-Crowned, as one round of RH damage + U-turn chip always left Zacian-Crowned in range of Dugtrio's Earthquake (which notably never kills 0/0 bulk Zacian-Crowned from full without Defense drops). However, it was possible for Zacian-Crowned to run SD + QA to lure and get past this combo, as +3 QA always OHKOes zero bulk Dugtrio. Excadrill is fairly self-explanatory, being a faster revenge killer under Sand from Tyranitar that could force out Zacian-Crowned. Quagsire, while forced to run Shed Shell due to the popularity of Gothitelle, was a safe but passive answer that could avoid the 2HKO from any of Zacian-Crowned's attacks thanks to Unaware. Finally, the popularity of DItto meant that Zacian-Crowned was harder to fit on teams, as running Corviknight + Dugtrio as your Zacian-Crowned answer + your own Zacian-Crowned made it more difficult to play around Ditto, although this could be somewhat mitigated with the use of Protect on Zacian-Crowned or running Quagsire alongside it.

When Pokemon Home first dropped we saw the return of many cover legendaries. For Zacian-Crowned, the more notable returnee was Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Not only did it avoid the 2HKO from any of its attacks bar the combo of Assurance + hazards on the switch (which had to come from Adamant Zacian-Crowned to 2HKO all the time), but it could also either provide Stealth Rocks or set up with Dragon Dance and become one of the most threatening sweepers in the tier with Dynamax. Soon after though, the Dynamax Banlist was enabled, relegating Necrozma-Dusk-Mane to defensive sets for the most part, which had the issue of its recovery options being halved in the common sandstorm from Tyranitar (and the less common rain) and being vulnerable to the then arguably best Pokemon in the tier, Lunala, which could OHKO Necrozma with Choice Specs Moongeist Beam if Necrozma-Dusk-Mane lacked Sp. Def Investment or cripple it with Trick. Rain was also another playstyle that rose in the Home metagame, with Drednaw being a common offensive check to Zacian-Crowned on such structures, alongside TR Necrozma-Dusk-Mane or defensive Leftovers/Utility Umbrella Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. In terms of other answers, they remained mostly the same. Corviknight + Dugtrio was still solid (Dugtrio even slightly better with more targets to trap such as Reshiram and Zekrom), Excadrill was as potent as ever with Ubers gaining more ground weak Pokemon, but Quagsire and Ditto both became notably worse. Quagsire giving up momentum clicking Recover after it came in on Zacian-Crowned and took a hit was more easily abuseable, and it had trouble checking other physical threats such as DD Zekrom and DD Kyurem-Black (both have Mold Breaker clones as their ability to ignore Unaware, the latter of which notably did not come under the Dynamax Banlist), or would let in dangerous special attackers such as Lunala. Speaking of Kyurem-Black, Zacian-Crowned started to occasionally run bulky sets to check it, as Necrozma-Dusk-Mane alone was often not enough when Kyurem-Black was paired with Zacian-Crowned since Necrozma-Dusk-Mane could not Dynamax. Meanwhile, Ditto being banned from Dynamaxing made it lose its ability to break free from its Choice lock after revenge killing or forcing out an opponent's Pokemon. Overall, despite the introduction of a new major check, Zacian-Crowned became even better thanks to new ways to abuse its answers and ability to make use of its typing and bulk to check one of the new most dangerous Dynamax sweeper with some Defense or HP investment.

Next, we have the DLC1 metagame. Notable additions for Zacian-Crowned include Volcarona and Skarmory. At first, people experimented with defensive Volcarona as a Zacian-Crowned check but it eventually dropped off since Zacian-Crowned could 2HKO Volcarona even if it ran Max HP Max defense, and Volcarona was better off as a Dynamax Sweeper. Meanwhile, Skarmory rose as a soft check to Zacian-Crowned but more importantly as a ground immunity, Spiker, and Excadrill check, though Rotom-W mostly eclipsed it as a ground immunity in the later parts of the DLC1 metagame, in part due to its ability to check Gyarados, check rain sweepers, and spread status. Two playstyles rose into popularity in the later part of the DLC1 metagame that Zacian-Crowned often found itself on, Sun and Screens HO. Sun had Torkoal to check Zacian-Crowned defensively while giving its team's Zacian-Crowned access to sun-boosted Fire Fang and Solar Blade to 2HKO Necrozma-Dusk-Mane and OHKO Quagsire respectively. Sun also had Charizard to soft check Zacian-Crowned. Meanwhile, Screens paired Zacian-Crowned with Kyurem-Black and other deadly sweepers to overload Phys. Def Walls, primarily Necrozma-Dusk-Mane. Dugtrio fell off somewhat due to being harder to fit on teams and having a tough time vs HO builds, while Quagsire fell somewhat but still found use for its better MU vs HO builds that relied on overwhelming Necrozma-Dusk-Mane (though it needed to be pair with something else to check Kyurem-Black). Excadrill remained as Zacian-Crowned's best offensive check. Overall, more tools were discovered for Zacian-Crowned to get past its defensive check in this metagame, but it was held back in part thanks to Dynamax, multiple highly viable defensive answers, and offensive checks under weather.

With the dropping of DLC2, the Ubers council freed Dynamax in its entirety before testing the mechanic as a whole a few weeks down the line. During the time Dynamax was free, Zacian-Crowned was somewhat overshadowed by Calyrex-Shadow, which had access to Dynamax and a higher speed tier, not to mention the ability to OHKO zero bulk Zacian-Crowned 75% of the time with Specs Astral Barrage. However, Zacian-Crowned adapted and many started running bulkier sets that allowed it to always live a Specs Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage or a +2 Max Lightning from Dynamaxed Xerneas. Moreover, since it was no longer the fastest Ubers Pokemon, people started running Adamant four attacks (Behemoth Blade, Assurance, Wild Charge, Close Combat) to easily pressure its common checks, notably always 2HKOing Necrozma-Dusk-Mane on the switch with Assurance into Close Combat if any Hazards were up and Necrozma-Dusk-Mane lacked Heavy-Duty Boots. Additionally, almost any attack into Wild Charge would allow Zacian-Crowned to beat Phys. Def Ho-Oh. Meanwhile, Quagsire, Dugtrio, and Excadrill usage fell greatly thanks to the return of more Ubers Pokemon, notably the weather duo. Max attack neutral natured Groudon has a good chance to 2HKO Quagsire and also removed the sand Excadrill relied on for speed, while Kyogre also removed the sand and could fire off an attack after Quagsire was forced to Recover after taking an attack from Zacian-Crowned. However, Zacian-Crowned still had to be careful of the opponent's steel resistant Pokemon Dynamaxing to defensively check it even if it got passed it main defensive answer and the opponent lacked speed control for it. Overall, Zacian-Crowned was amazing in this metagame, but all the Dynamax around make it somewhat easier to check, not to mention is usually ran Behemoth Blade instead of Play Rough, allowing dragons such as Zekrom and Zygarde to check it.

However, then the Dynamax suspect happened and the mechanic was subsequently banned. Although getting rid of Dynamax was a step in the right direction for a more balanced Ubers tier, the ban had the unfortunate side effect of making Zacian-Crowned better than ever. It is easily the best Pokemon in the tier in my opinion. It can often drop Behemoth Blade in favor of Play Rough, which means that Quagsire isn't switching in if it takes even a little chip since it only barely avoids the 2HKO from Adamant Play Rough. It no longer has to fear slower Pokemon defensively Dynamaxing to take it down, and it only needs to get one play right vs Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane lacking boots to get rid of it. Even just taking two round of Stealth Rock Damage means that Necrozma-Dusk-Mane can fall to two Adamant Close Combats. Heavy-Duty boots variants are not a perfect answer either since they are still forced to recover and also completely lack the ability to force progress onto it unlike with the Rocky Helmet set. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane also mostly runs Thunder Wave to safely beat Sword Dance Zacian-Crowned variants since it cannot always beat Zacian-Crowned with Rocky Helmet chip + Sunsteel Strike/Earthquake damage, making it run either a mono attacking set, drop Stealth Rock, or take the risk with no Thunder Wave. Zacian-Crowned can also pair with Groudon, a far better Drought Pokemon than Torkoal, to 2HKO Necrozma-Dusk-Mane in the Sun with Fire Fang. Finally, in terms of revenge killers, Excadrill has mostly fallen off for reasons explained in the last paragraph and common Scarfers are limited to Calyrex-Shadow and Kyogre, the former of which cannot OHKO Zacian-Crowned and the latter can only OHKO Zacian-Crowned with Water Spout in rain when it is relatively healthy. Moreover, with the rise of Webs as a playstyle, even niche options of dealing with Zacian-Crowned such as Dugtrio find themselves less consistent. Overall, I don't think Zacian-Crowned is healthy in the current metagame thanks to combination of speed, power, bulk, and ability to get passed it its primary answers easily with minimal support and prediction. As such, I will be voting ban.

 

[Super Espeon]

I don't have the qualifications, but this thing is busted. Especially when paired with shuckle, whose sticky web can make it nearly impossible to revenge kill and shuckle's stealth rock makes it harder to switch in to. The only thing that can try is Scarf Calyrex-S But Zacian will need to be chipped. Quag is free setup for most ubers like DD Necrozma who is bulky enough to take an EQ. Also if Zacian gets an SD on the switch Quag is doomed. While I'm a relatively meh player, I think Zacian should be BANNED.

 

[SparksBlade]

Also if Zacian gets an SD on the switch Quag is doomed

Unaware means this is irrelevant.

I see a few posts here talking about how some other Pokemon(s) are potentially broken/overpowered/uncompetitive and maybe should've been suspected first instead of Zacian-C, and while the concern is appreciated, posts in this thread should remain focused on the Zacian-C suspect.

 

[ir0ny]

Quick rundown of me: I had taken a long hiatus from Ubers since Dynamax was introduced to the game. I did not like this mechanic when it was released and disliked it even more the longer I played. So I took a break. Thank G-d it got banned. Now I am back! I decided to hold my comment until I got Reqs. I just got them tonight.

A quick comment about my philosophy on banning Pokemon in the Ubers tier... Banning a Pokemon from the Ubers tier should not be taken lightly. This tier has always been and always should be a ban list from the OU tier. Anything Goes is generally not a competitive tier so Pokemon removed from the Ubers tier no longer have a metagame to be used in competitively. Bans should be decided solely on if the Pokemon is truly overbearing to the point of being VERY uncompetitive.

With that said, lets get on to the offender, Zacian-C. This Pokemon is most definitely the most powerful Pokemon in the tier right now. Fairy/Steel typing is bonkers. It even means this Pokemon can find free switch ins on top tier threats such as Xerneas, Yveltal and any Dragon move. It also threatens all those Pokemon with an OHKO. Nothing counters Zacian-C. Even the ever sturdy Necrozma Dusk Mane can be beaten with assurance after rocks damage or can be muscled through with swords dance boosted close combat. This, however, does not mean there are no ways to deal with Zacian-C.

In my games on the ladder Necrozma Dusk Mane held strong most games since I ran two checks to Zacian-C (whether that be Ho-oh or Landorus-T or even Quagsire.) Having to run two checks to a single Pokemon is not unheard of in the Ubers tier. I remember in early XY Ubers there were arguments that Xerneas was uncompetitive and should be banned since it too was able to beat its checks and counters and forced most people to run two checks to it. I do not think that this necessarily makes a Pokemon ban worthy in the Ubers tier.

Revenge killing this Pokemon has not been a problem for me in my experience. Due to rocky helmet on Necrozma Dusk Mane, Zacian-C is rarely at 100% when you go to revenge kill it and half the time it is paralyzed. Pokemon like choice scarf Kyogre, choice scarf Palkia, choice specs/choice scarf Calyrex-Shadow all revenge kill it at reasonable HP % points without paralysis. The list of revenge killers against a paralyzed Zacian-C is much larger.

Ubers as a tier is completely centralized around Zacian-C (and another Pokemon which will not be named since this is not its thread.) I think that the removal of Zacian-C would help the tier become more diverse. However, I do not think that that is the point of the Ubers tier. Again, bans should be decided solely on if the Pokemon is truly overbearing to the point of being uncompetitive.

My conclusion is not what you would think after reading this post. I think that Zacian-C does hit a level of uncompetitive that would require a ban from the Ubers tier for 3 reasons. (In the next few sentences I restate my reasoning for voting BAN, some of which has been given previously in this post. Skip ahead to the next paragraph if you do not want to hear it again..)
1. A GENERAL LACK OF COUNTERPLAY. Zacian-C has ONE Pokemon that can handle it every game, Heavy duty boots Necrozma Dusk Mane. The word handle in that sentence means paralysis, or shaving off 30-60% of its HP. If the opponent has Aromatherapy, which is not uncommon on Xerneas, you then must pray that your secondary counter to Zacian-C is at 100% HP which is not achievable in real game circumstances. Outside of Necrozma Dusk Mane, every other Pokemon is beaten by Zacian-C. (Quagsire can be beaten with the right circumstances and the right rolls.) Landorus-T can only switch in once. Ho-Oh can be killed with Close Combat into Wild Charge. Even defensive Groudon is 2HKOd.
2. TYPING AND BULK. The other massive problem that this Pokemon presents is a result of its typing and above average 92/115/115 bulk. Zacian-C reliably switches into Yveltal, Xerneas, and most dragons in the tier, threatening all back with an OHKO. This gives the largest threat in the tier far too many free switch ins.
3. UNCOMPETITIVE ADVANTAGE TO ZACIAN-C USER. Zacian-C coming in for free also causes very predictable plays from the opponent. You either go to Necrozma Dusk Mane/other designated Zacian-C check or lose a Pokemon. This is easily taken advantage of by double switches. If you try to predict the obvious double switch, the Zacian-C user can always just attack and kill a Pokemon. This causes obnoxious plays to have to be made every game which favor the Zacian-C user as they lose nothing from attacking.

Because of these three reasons, I do believe Zacian-C is generally uncompetitive. It is a worse offender than Mega Rayquaza. I will sadly be voting BAN on Zacian-C.

Going forward we must be very careful with bans. I understand that Calyrex-Shadow is very centralizing as well. The Ubers metagame will evolve after a possible Zacian-C ban in ways that do not favor Calyrex-Shadow. There must be time for the metagame to adjust before more suspect tests.

 

[jns0808]

I feel that Zacian Should be banned. This is mainly because:
1) It's typing is excellent, giving it several immunities and resistance to go along with it's decent bulk for an offensive pokemon, since it can live a rain boosted origin pulse from a kyogre after 2 rounds of rocks damage

2) It's ability, while already seen in a similar from in download, makes it broken due to it's already monstrous attack stat boosts it too far without any required setup, often allowing either it to sweep a weakened mid-game team, or a revenge sweeper ditto to sweep it's team.

3) It has incredible coverage, and especially with rocks up, resulting in it being able to KO most of its checks. Quagsire is becoming increasingly unviable due to the abundance of legendaries since DLC 2, and a rock+assurance can devastate an ndm, especially if rain is up, and ndm struggles to heal.

4)Banning zacian would also enable players to have little breathing room during team building, due to having to often run 2 zacian checks and 1 or 2 shadow-rider checks.

5),Zacian being immune to poison/toxic spikes means it cannot also be reliably stalled by pokemon such as toxapex.

6) It's incredibly high speed outspeeds most of the unscarfed metagame, meaning the pokemon with the potential to outspeed and KO it are limited, especially if Sticky web is up, in which case it even outspeed some scarfed mons.

TLDR;
Zacian is broken beyond being broken, to the point of becoming uncompetitive, and should be banned.

 

[SiTuM]

Because of these three reasons, I do believe Zacian-C is generally uncompetitive. It is a worse offender than Mega Rayquaza.

no. i very honestly think - besides nora's post/fc's post - almost all posts of page 3 have been bad and have quite stupid takes, but this is probably the worst. i can't possibly understand how you could come up with a point like this if you ever played a single game of ubers. while i also think zacian should be banned, it's absolutely not on the same level as mega rayquaza, and it won't ever be. while zacian could somehow get some kind of counterplay with dusk mane, quag or dugtrio, mega rayquaza never had the slightest answer after it clicked dd once (besides ditto).

please restrain yourselves from posting if you aren't well acquainted with ubers as a whole to avoid making dumb points like such.

 

[Icemaster]

Before the thread gets too derailed I want to remind everyone that this is a Zacian-C suspect. Comparisons to different pokemon in a completely unrelated metagame don't help anyone - we're not evaluating how good Zacian-C is in National Dex AG, we're evaluating whether it's broken or not in Ubers. Posts should focus on the matter at hand.