I am currently leaning towards "Ban". Why?
1) Banning Zacian will improve competitiveness of Ubers.
2) Banning Zacian will make Ubers more fun.
3) Banning Zacian will make the metagame better.
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Metagame np: SS Ubers Stage 5 - Hound Dog (Zacian-Crowned Banned)
- Thread starter Icemaster
- Start date
- Status
1) Banning Zacian will improve competitiveness of Ubers.
2) Banning Zacian will make Ubers more fun.
3) Banning Zacian will make the metagame better.
I love how despite all the detail given in the thread as to why its broken, you actually gave less detail than some grade 1 learning books to the contrary.
Your entire reasoning on why Zacian isn't banworthy in your eyes is quite literally a purely emotional opinion and while i would normally say why it's broken but it's been done so many times not only in this thread but literally every place this tier has to discuss the tier to where I'm not even going to bother.
This take is like if Cinderace was being suspected in OU and someone tryna vote no ban because they wouldnt be able to use their in game team in OU anymore.
Btw send this dog to the pound where it belongs.
Dude. I seriously cannot grasp how in the seven hells you can think - or even believe - this when the last metagame thread had a ton of people demanding something be done about Zacian-Crowned because it is about as brainless as it gets. FFS, the thing hits about as hard as Deo-Attack, except it can actually take hits. Oh, wait, let me fix that. It hits harder than Deo-A because it boosts its already nuke-level attack when it comes in, because that's fair and balanced. If it clicks Swords Dance, kiss any chance of winning goodbye. I would go so far as to say you might as well throw the type chart in the dumpster when Zacian-Crowned is in play, because it'll maul whatever is in front of it with ease. I mean, even a blind man can see this shit needs to go.
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Zacian-C is a very polarizing Pokemon with almost no defensive counterplay whatsoever. What meager counterplay does exist, like Defensive Necrozma-DM, are inconsistent and are also usually Gothitelle bait. It's also really hard to outspeed outside of super specific Pokemon, Choice Scarf Users, and weather abusers like Excadrill, which have to hope they aren't fighting an Agility set (outside of Ditto of course)
Claiming that the metagame will change and be uncomfortable for many is not an argument that supports it being legal, just an assumption, and even if it were an argument it would be quite invalid since the suspect is about Zacian-C's impact on the metagame, not what will happen afterwards.
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Bro first off
1: kyurem white isn't a fire type...
2: Reshiram dies off 2 play roughs, thus isnt a counter
3: literally what are those groudon calcs did you put 1 at level 50 vs 1 at 100??
4: How can Zacian safely switchin to calyrex what??
5: Zacian crowned can't run choice band...
6: Zacian uninvested can't outspeed max jolly mega loppuny ._.
7: Zacian can't run scarf either..
I dont know what to say to this post besides quite literally everything you said was incorrect besides Zacian being broken and it having no good switchins
Reshiram isnt a counter it dies to 2 play roughs, heres the calc: 1 252 Atk Zacian-Crowned Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Reshiram: 268-316 (78.5 - 92.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Also, Zacian cant run any items when its using its rusted sword, also, zacian hits 434 speed with a jolly nature while mega lopunny hits 405. Everybody runs max speed calyrex shadow to outspeed zacian.
Kyurem white isnt a fire type it gets destroyed by behemoth blade/play rough.
Those are some shit groudon calcs.
In what world can zacian switch into a calyrex shadow??? 252 SpA Calyrex-Shadow Astral Barrage vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 208-246 (64 - 75.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
So your reason that calyrex shadow isnt broken is because its weak to dark and ghost?? Thats legit the most shittest argument ever. There is a reason why yveltal is number 1 in usage rn.
I will agree that zacian is banworthy tho. But all that you said is just not true at all.
Umm.... you forgot to mention dusk-mane and quagsire
Hello wadeeeeeeeee and welcome to the Ubers subforum! I am sure I speak for many of us when I say that seeing new perspectives in suspect threads is very much appreciated. Regrettably, your most recent post is so incoherent that it leaves me questioning whether or not you have in fact played a game of Ubers in your life. Your thesis, that
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, nobody is proposing any of these Dragons as answers to Zacian-C. You claim that
That said, you do sometimes see people leaving Eternatus in on Zacian-C. Why? This is less because they consider Eternatus a Zacian-C answer and more because Zacian-C is terrifying to switch into. Sometimes sacrificing a chunk of your glue Pokemon's health to get some decent chip on Zacian-C (0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO) is in fact the optimal play, especially considering how the Eternatus might predict the Zacian-C user clicking Assurance or Close Combat. This is far from ideal, but it's the sort of situation Zacian-C regularly forces. Zacian-C is so rough to handle that you'll often see people sacrificing stuff to it just to damage it a bit — look at turns 20 and 21 here, where BaconEatinAssassin leaves his Ground immune and presumptive Defogger Yveltal in on Zacian-C twice because JT Yao clicking Assurance on a Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switch-in puts him at a significant disadvantage. This sort of play is insane in any healthy metagame, yet often optimal in the Zacian-infested hellscape of SS Ubers. The last word on keeping Eternatus in on Zacian-C is that a Life Orb Eternatus actually wins the 1v1 with a bit of prior chip on 0 HP/0 SpD Zacian-C and is likely to outpace bulkier Zacian-Cs — see 252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 247-291 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO versus +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 343-405 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The Eternatus often dies in return, but it's often a fair trade to take out your opponent's scariest offensive Pokemon in a tier full of scary offensive Pokemon.
Moving on, in your now-deleted original post, you try and fail to frame Reshiram as a Zacian-C check. You wisely back off on this here, although I think you still miss the point.
That's really the heart of the problem I have with your post. There are ample reasons to ban Zacian-C, but almost everything you've given us exists on the fringe of the metagame, if it exists at all, or is otherwise ill-informed. Furthermore, I feel there's very little content here. When you take out the damage calculations, all I get from your post is "Zacian-C beats a bunch of Dragon-types that do or don't have a type weakness to it" and a footnote saying "Calyrex-Shadow good," which....yeah? I promise you nobody outside of perhaps the low Ubers ladder was trying to beat the 170 Attack Steel/Fairy Pokemon with a bunch of Dragon-types in the first place, and although Calyrex-Shadow is really strong it's not really relevant to this discussion the way you've framed it. Yes, your conclusion that Zacian-C is impossible to defensively handle on a consistent basis is correct, but it seems to me you get there the wrong way.
A better way to do this mental calculus is to consider the checks to Zacian-C people actually use and the ways they fall short. We have three Zacian-C checks: Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Rocky Helmet Pokemon + Scarf Dugtrio, and Quagsire. Pairing Zacian-C with a Gothitelle alone throws all these options out the window, because none of them can afford to run Shed Shell and be consistent versus either hazards or Zacian-C itself. Even if they do run items optimal for Zacian-C, it still has sets that tool them all. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane falls to Assurance Zacian-C unless it has Heavy Duty Boots, and if it opts for Heavy Duty Boots over Rocky Helmet it doesn't deter Swords Dance or Crunch Zacian-C from clicking attacks well enough. Quagsire has to sit there and spam Recover until Zacian-C misses a Play Rough — if it scores a critical hit instead, you're done, not to mention that Zacian-C can use 16 Play Rough PP and 8 Close Combat PP to stall out Quagsire's 16 Recover PP in the long game. This lets Zacian-C destroy Quagsire by itself with no coverage dedicated to the task. If Quagsire ever saw high usage again, too, Zacian-C could just Solar Blade it for the clean OHKO in Sun. You can run Rocky Helmet Quagsire to deter Zacian from just sitting there and fishing, but this requires the greatest hazard control in the universe and sometimes loses even still. Meanwhile, Rocky Helmet + Dugtrio loses if the Rocky Helmet gets Knocked Off, or if the Zacian-C invests heavily in bulk, or if you can't keep both the Rocky Helmet holder and Dugtrio alive before you trap Zacian, or if the Zacian-C has Substitute or Agility. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane also loses badly to Substitute, given that the standard line of play in Necrozma-Dusk-Mane versus Zacian-C is clicking Thunder Wave turn one. One of the most compelling reasons to ban Zacian-C is that it can fuck over all three of its checks either on its own or with minimal team support.
Or we could look at this from a different angle and examine the viability of its defensive checks. I'm pretty confident you won't see any of them in a Zacian-C-free metagame. Quagsire should disappear because the only thing it checks outside of Zacian-C is Zygarde, which it already does a poor job of due to its intense vulnerability to Full Paralysis and Toxic. Dugtrio should vanish too — the only common thing it traps besides Zacian-C is the occasional support Eternatus, except that Gothitelle does this much more consistently while having far more utility versus other Pokemon. Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane at least does better than these two at first glance, but if you look at every offensive threat higher than B- rank in the Viability Rankings, you'll notice that it switches in and beats none of them except Zacian-C. Even then "beating" that really means Paralyzing it 90% of the time and taking off 50-70% of its health with Earthquake. Unlike the other two, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane should still exist in a post-Zacian-C metagame, but it'll favor Special Defense over Physical so as to actually handle Geomancy Xerneas, Life Orb Eternatus, and Palkia, among others. The fact that none of this stuff should exist without Zacian-C roaming around tells us that teams use these things expressly because of it — Zacian-C massively restricts building, given that you have to run one of three options dedicated almost solely to handling it, not to mention how those options can often lose.
In one sense, wadeeeeeeeee, we're actually saying the same thing — ban Zacian-C because you need to run bizarre, less-than-optimal strategies expressly to check it that still often lose. I just think we disagree on all the specifics.
hits the nail on the head. Just about everything else you say, however, betrays astonishingly little knowledge of Ubers. This may partially be the fault of the Ubers community for not having enough learning resources or not having many threads documenting the metagame until relatively recently — Ubers may seem like an inaccessible tier at first glance, but I'd invite you (and a few others itt) to take a look at our Viability Rankings and Sample Teams and watch some high-level SS Ubers replays here before engaging further. This should save you from making another post that might bewilder some others who are still getting their bearings in the tier. I will try to clear up any potential confusion your post has caused by addressing your points and advancing some pro-ban arguments that are more grounded in the reality of the tier.
If you read the Viability Rankings I linked above you'll see that only twelve (thirteen if you count both Giratinas as separate Pokemon, although I wouldn't) out of sixty-nine viable Pokemon are Dragon types; this is 17 (or 18)% of what has a metagame niche, less than one-fifth of the tier. Of these Pokemon, usage patterns vary wildly. Yet note that at every level only two, Zygarde and Eternatus, surpass even 13% usage. If you look at the Sample Teams, only one of them, Icemaster's, has more than one Dragon-type. Though it's true that Dragon is the most represented type in the Viability Rankings, it's unfair to say that most Pokemon in Ubers are Dragon-type. Only three in Eternatus, Zygarde, and Palkia are splashable enough to commonly fit on a variety of archetypes. Unfortunately a number of Dragons you mention (Kyurem-B, Kyurem-W, Reshiram, Rayquaza, and the Giratinas, for instance) just aren't ubiquitous or good enough that Zacian-C beating them is a great reason to ban it.
Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, nobody is proposing any of these Dragons as answers to Zacian-C. You claim that
yet I can assure you nobody with a grasp on the tier is running Eternatus as a Zacian answer. Even if they were, you wouldn't see 252 HP / 252 Def Eternatus — Physically Defensive Eternatus has fallen out of favor since Crown Tundra, yet even if it were common it would be running far less bulk and far more Speed. 40 HP/252 Def/216 Spe Timid was the standard in Isle of Armor, and I often run this much Speed on Eternatus nowadays myself. Eternatus has an unprecedentedly high base Speed stat for a primarily defensive Pokemon, and running nearly max Speed on it is viable if not encouraged because it helps it check Marshadow. It's the same story for the far more common Specially Defensive Eternatus, which often opts to outpace Palkia at minimum. Investing less in a defensive stat to get more use out of Eternatus's high base Speed is standard — you sacrifice some bulk to better pivot and revenge kill things, which makes Eternatus a bit less good versus things it doesn't check like Zacian-C but gives it much higher utility overall.
That said, you do sometimes see people leaving Eternatus in on Zacian-C. Why? This is less because they consider Eternatus a Zacian-C answer and more because Zacian-C is terrifying to switch into. Sometimes sacrificing a chunk of your glue Pokemon's health to get some decent chip on Zacian-C (0 SpA Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 158-188 (48.6 - 57.8%) -- 94.1% chance to 2HKO) is in fact the optimal play, especially considering how the Eternatus might predict the Zacian-C user clicking Assurance or Close Combat. This is far from ideal, but it's the sort of situation Zacian-C regularly forces. Zacian-C is so rough to handle that you'll often see people sacrificing stuff to it just to damage it a bit — look at turns 20 and 21 here, where BaconEatinAssassin leaves his Ground immune and presumptive Defogger Yveltal in on Zacian-C twice because JT Yao clicking Assurance on a Necrozma-Dusk-Mane switch-in puts him at a significant disadvantage. This sort of play is insane in any healthy metagame, yet often optimal in the Zacian-infested hellscape of SS Ubers. The last word on keeping Eternatus in on Zacian-C is that a Life Orb Eternatus actually wins the 1v1 with a bit of prior chip on 0 HP/0 SpD Zacian-C and is likely to outpace bulkier Zacian-Cs — see 252 SpA Life Orb Eternatus Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Zacian-Crowned: 247-291 (76 - 89.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO versus +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Behemoth Blade vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eternatus: 343-405 (81.4 - 96.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO. The Eternatus often dies in return, but it's often a fair trade to take out your opponent's scariest offensive Pokemon in a tier full of scary offensive Pokemon.
Moving on, in your now-deleted original post, you try and fail to frame Reshiram as a Zacian-C check. You wisely back off on this here, although I think you still miss the point.
It's ironic to note that Choice Scarf Reshiram is actually a phenomenal Zacian-C revenge killer, OHKOing even 252 HP / 0 SpD variants with Blue Flare. The only other Pokemon that reliably revenge kill Zacian-C are Choice Specs Calyrex-S and the Choice Scarf variants of Landorus-T, Darmanitan-G, and Kyogre. This is not a significant pool of Pokemon — surely if Zacian-C is so hard to defensively check, you'd see one of its strong revenge killers on every team. Yet in two full weeks and 17 games of Most Wanted, even despite seeing fully unviable Pokemon like Charizard, Garchomp, and Corviknight, we still have yet to encounter a Reshiram out in the wild. The fact is, Reshiram isn't relevant. It doesn't matter whether or not it checks or doesn't check Zacian-C, because it doesn't even crack 3% usage at any level of ladder play and has only three recorded uses in any Crown Tundra tournament games, including those for the Ubers Championship. Max Defense Reshiram calcs hold no importance to either side of this discussion.
The same goes for your bizarre hypothetical Dialga spreads. I can confidently tell you nobody is running 252 HP / 0 Def Mild Dialga, just as nobody is running 0 HP / 252 Def Bold or 252 HP / 252 Def Bold or Life Orb Dialga. I can understand your confusion to an extent — there hasn't been any Crown Tundra Ubers C&C work yet, meaning most all the sets in the damage calculator don't exist or don't make sense. That explains where you got the 104 HP Life Orb Dialga from, although I'm still totally baffled at the three other spreads. The only Zacian-C calc that actually matters versus Dialga is +1 252+ Atk Zacian-Crowned Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Dialga: 452-532 (111.8 - 131.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO. Even then, it's unclear to me that Dialga itself matters much to the discussion. It gets a bit over double the usage of Reshiram at every level of ladder play — a whopping ~6-7% in every metric except 1760 stats, where it tanks to 3.6%. Yet it has had no uses in Most Wanted yet, saw only 7.7% usage in Kickoff, and hasn't appeared in even 1 of 36 Championship games. Dialga is a bit more relevant than Reshiram, but whether Zacian-C beats it is also only of tangential importance because Dialga's still only uncommon at best.
That's really the heart of the problem I have with your post. There are ample reasons to ban Zacian-C, but almost everything you've given us exists on the fringe of the metagame, if it exists at all, or is otherwise ill-informed. Furthermore, I feel there's very little content here. When you take out the damage calculations, all I get from your post is "Zacian-C beats a bunch of Dragon-types that do or don't have a type weakness to it" and a footnote saying "Calyrex-Shadow good," which....yeah? I promise you nobody outside of perhaps the low Ubers ladder was trying to beat the 170 Attack Steel/Fairy Pokemon with a bunch of Dragon-types in the first place, and although Calyrex-Shadow is really strong it's not really relevant to this discussion the way you've framed it. Yes, your conclusion that Zacian-C is impossible to defensively handle on a consistent basis is correct, but it seems to me you get there the wrong way.
A better way to do this mental calculus is to consider the checks to Zacian-C people actually use and the ways they fall short. We have three Zacian-C checks: Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane, Rocky Helmet Pokemon + Scarf Dugtrio, and Quagsire. Pairing Zacian-C with a Gothitelle alone throws all these options out the window, because none of them can afford to run Shed Shell and be consistent versus either hazards or Zacian-C itself. Even if they do run items optimal for Zacian-C, it still has sets that tool them all. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane falls to Assurance Zacian-C unless it has Heavy Duty Boots, and if it opts for Heavy Duty Boots over Rocky Helmet it doesn't deter Swords Dance or Crunch Zacian-C from clicking attacks well enough. Quagsire has to sit there and spam Recover until Zacian-C misses a Play Rough — if it scores a critical hit instead, you're done, not to mention that Zacian-C can use 16 Play Rough PP and 8 Close Combat PP to stall out Quagsire's 16 Recover PP in the long game. This lets Zacian-C destroy Quagsire by itself with no coverage dedicated to the task. If Quagsire ever saw high usage again, too, Zacian-C could just Solar Blade it for the clean OHKO in Sun. You can run Rocky Helmet Quagsire to deter Zacian from just sitting there and fishing, but this requires the greatest hazard control in the universe and sometimes loses even still. Meanwhile, Rocky Helmet + Dugtrio loses if the Rocky Helmet gets Knocked Off, or if the Zacian-C invests heavily in bulk, or if you can't keep both the Rocky Helmet holder and Dugtrio alive before you trap Zacian, or if the Zacian-C has Substitute or Agility. Necrozma-Dusk-Mane also loses badly to Substitute, given that the standard line of play in Necrozma-Dusk-Mane versus Zacian-C is clicking Thunder Wave turn one. One of the most compelling reasons to ban Zacian-C is that it can fuck over all three of its checks either on its own or with minimal team support.
Or we could look at this from a different angle and examine the viability of its defensive checks. I'm pretty confident you won't see any of them in a Zacian-C-free metagame. Quagsire should disappear because the only thing it checks outside of Zacian-C is Zygarde, which it already does a poor job of due to its intense vulnerability to Full Paralysis and Toxic. Dugtrio should vanish too — the only common thing it traps besides Zacian-C is the occasional support Eternatus, except that Gothitelle does this much more consistently while having far more utility versus other Pokemon. Physically Defensive Necrozma-Dusk-Mane at least does better than these two at first glance, but if you look at every offensive threat higher than B- rank in the Viability Rankings, you'll notice that it switches in and beats none of them except Zacian-C. Even then "beating" that really means Paralyzing it 90% of the time and taking off 50-70% of its health with Earthquake. Unlike the other two, Necrozma-Dusk-Mane should still exist in a post-Zacian-C metagame, but it'll favor Special Defense over Physical so as to actually handle Geomancy Xerneas, Life Orb Eternatus, and Palkia, among others. The fact that none of this stuff should exist without Zacian-C roaming around tells us that teams use these things expressly because of it — Zacian-C massively restricts building, given that you have to run one of three options dedicated almost solely to handling it, not to mention how those options can often lose.
In one sense, wadeeeeeeeee, we're actually saying the same thing — ban Zacian-C because you need to run bizarre, less-than-optimal strategies expressly to check it that still often lose. I just think we disagree on all the specifics.
Yes Quagsire, and yes everybody here is serious. Have you ever actually played Ubers? You should probably not giving any input if you haven't. Just saying.
Quagsire has been the most reliable Zacian-C counter ever since Zacian was introduced last year. You can find out past viability ranking threads find out why. Or do some research on the ability called 'Unaware'.
The only reliable check I had for Zacian was scarfed Reshiram with fusion flare(blue flare misses a lot) and sash Marshadow and you have to give sacrifice to get these mons in and both are hindered by entry hazards. I do hope Zacian gets banned as I am itching to use Giratina.
Also scarfed has to be jolly and it can 1hko zacian
Also scarfed has to be jolly and it can 1hko zacian
Lol all these people bitching about Calyrex-SR which gets hard walled by Yvettal and taken out by snarl! Also Marshadow easily revenge kills it and shadow sneakers and sucker punchers in general kill it.
But Zacian can overpower and of it's supposed counters. Wild charge kills Ho-oh. Sword dance plus crunch kills Necrozma DM and nobody is gonna play Quagsire and get wrecked by any of the other 3-4 ubers on a team. You can try bring in ditto but it won't work if it hides behind a sub.
Its has:
Which means it should absolutely get banned.
But Zacian can overpower and of it's supposed counters. Wild charge kills Ho-oh. Sword dance plus crunch kills Necrozma DM and nobody is gonna play Quagsire and get wrecked by any of the other 3-4 ubers on a team. You can try bring in ditto but it won't work if it hides behind a sub.
Its has:
- 170 attack and +1 from Interprid sword for free
- 148 speed and is only outsped by 6 pokemon. Many of whom are frail and would get wrecked by quick attack.
- 2 immunities including poison so no toxic
- 9 resistances including many common attacking types like dark.
- 115 defences so bulky
- Sword dance and agility to further boost its stats. Which lets it power through Nexcrozma DM
- High BP stab moves with Behemoth blade and Rough Play
- Wide and useful movepool to deal with counters, crunch for ghosts and psychics and wild charge for Ho-Oh
Which means it should absolutely get banned.
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I've previously expressed my distaste for Zacian-C in this meta, but figured I should add a more proper post to the main thread focusing on it with some updated opinions as well since tournaments such as MW, Championship Playoffs, and LTPL have begun since then. Zacian-C has had a large impact in a lot of games throughout these tours, further cementing itself as a broken pokemon in the tier. I'll try and go over some stats just by looking at it as well as link some of the games I found it was able to shine the most, and it shows off just what it's able to do to even prepared teams.
Hoping I counted right for both sides and all the games, Most Wanted week 1 saw 10 Zacians across 8 games with a 60% win rate. This isn't unheard of stats, but in almost every game it consistently applied pressure on both sides which looking at it almost every single team had Necrozma-DM or Quagsire and they were still heavily pressured. Some highlights for Zacian were my game against Icemaster where Gothitelle trapped Dusk Mane on a 50/50 and Zacian got 4 kills which speaks to both being stupid, rant on goth at the bottom. This game between Skysolo and Truenora both had Zacians and Necrozmas, and both Zacians killed both Necrozmas. Nora's came in on stealth rock which it resists twice, and it was cleanly 2hko'd by Close Combat, not even with assurance. It took the smallest amount of chip and was just instantly no longer an answer at all. Skysolo had his chipped down to 77% with a spike up and it also died to Zacian even though he managed to switch it in on a resisted Play Rough, and it still did more later on Skysolo's side with another important ko on Ferrothorn because it beat its best switch in after it took 12.5% of chip. In this game Kyorgef4n 6-0's Nalei's team with both Quagsire and Lugia with Zacian picking up every single kill, because they were pressured to switch into more than just Zacian at points in the game or else they'd be bordering useless, which should be natural for walls, they can switch into more than 1 single mon and be able to check stuff, but with Zacian as the wallbreaker that's not possible. I also really liked this set from championships because Zacian just put in a ridiculous amount of work in every single game, with 2 ending in early ff's because a Zacian was staring down a team after ripping it apart, getting without the forfeits being early around 14 kills in theory if they just stayed in and attacked which was the correct way to do it, clearly shown by the early ends.
There's many more replays I could go through, showing just how good Zacian is, but I think that's just pointless eventually to just throw games chosen as proof, but aside from those there's more reasons. Team building arguably won't change much with the banning of Zacian-C, because Necrozma-DM will still have to deal with things like banded Zacian-H and might still have to be on almost every team, but I think in game things will loosen up a lot. Zacian-H is slower, can be knocked off which makes it weaker, and has a weakness to poison and steel unlike Zacian-C, meaning it should generally be more manageable. Zacian-H does still 2hko dusk mane, but it's easier to deal with due to its lacking traits compared to Zacian-C like no steel typing, 10 less speed, the abiity to be knocked off, etc. I also think a lot of game ending 50/50's will be lessened, because plays like yveltal staying in on Zacian-C to foul play it hoping they click assurance predicting a dusk mane is common, and puts a mon at risk every time Zacian-C comes in with hazards because a 50/50 is forced which could just end the game because the check will not even be a check and instead will die in 2 hits.
I think the gameplay will free up to a more enjoyable and stable position, because the biggest threat that forces specific team structures and game plans to not lose would be gone. Currently, I am leaning towards ban on Zacian-C due to these reasons and explanations, it's too restricting on gameplay and can shine in even difficult mu's, has extremely finnicky checks with very little viability on some, and forces many 50/50's that can be game ending usually favouring the Zacian user because it's still doing damage as it attacks and puts other mons at risk of losing 1v1. As much as I like using Zacian-C for the power it has and the different sets / support you can run with it, I don't believe it's fit for the tier and it puts an unhealthy strain onto building and almost every game that it's in.
Below I'll also drop some thoughts on other possible problem mons because I figure it's a fine time to just drop some preemptive thoughts on them if anything were to happen down the line.
Hoping I counted right for both sides and all the games, Most Wanted week 1 saw 10 Zacians across 8 games with a 60% win rate. This isn't unheard of stats, but in almost every game it consistently applied pressure on both sides which looking at it almost every single team had Necrozma-DM or Quagsire and they were still heavily pressured. Some highlights for Zacian were my game against Icemaster where Gothitelle trapped Dusk Mane on a 50/50 and Zacian got 4 kills which speaks to both being stupid, rant on goth at the bottom. This game between Skysolo and Truenora both had Zacians and Necrozmas, and both Zacians killed both Necrozmas. Nora's came in on stealth rock which it resists twice, and it was cleanly 2hko'd by Close Combat, not even with assurance. It took the smallest amount of chip and was just instantly no longer an answer at all. Skysolo had his chipped down to 77% with a spike up and it also died to Zacian even though he managed to switch it in on a resisted Play Rough, and it still did more later on Skysolo's side with another important ko on Ferrothorn because it beat its best switch in after it took 12.5% of chip. In this game Kyorgef4n 6-0's Nalei's team with both Quagsire and Lugia with Zacian picking up every single kill, because they were pressured to switch into more than just Zacian at points in the game or else they'd be bordering useless, which should be natural for walls, they can switch into more than 1 single mon and be able to check stuff, but with Zacian as the wallbreaker that's not possible. I also really liked this set from championships because Zacian just put in a ridiculous amount of work in every single game, with 2 ending in early ff's because a Zacian was staring down a team after ripping it apart, getting without the forfeits being early around 14 kills in theory if they just stayed in and attacked which was the correct way to do it, clearly shown by the early ends.
There's many more replays I could go through, showing just how good Zacian is, but I think that's just pointless eventually to just throw games chosen as proof, but aside from those there's more reasons. Team building arguably won't change much with the banning of Zacian-C, because Necrozma-DM will still have to deal with things like banded Zacian-H and might still have to be on almost every team, but I think in game things will loosen up a lot. Zacian-H is slower, can be knocked off which makes it weaker, and has a weakness to poison and steel unlike Zacian-C, meaning it should generally be more manageable. Zacian-H does still 2hko dusk mane, but it's easier to deal with due to its lacking traits compared to Zacian-C like no steel typing, 10 less speed, the abiity to be knocked off, etc. I also think a lot of game ending 50/50's will be lessened, because plays like yveltal staying in on Zacian-C to foul play it hoping they click assurance predicting a dusk mane is common, and puts a mon at risk every time Zacian-C comes in with hazards because a 50/50 is forced which could just end the game because the check will not even be a check and instead will die in 2 hits.
I think the gameplay will free up to a more enjoyable and stable position, because the biggest threat that forces specific team structures and game plans to not lose would be gone. Currently, I am leaning towards ban on Zacian-C due to these reasons and explanations, it's too restricting on gameplay and can shine in even difficult mu's, has extremely finnicky checks with very little viability on some, and forces many 50/50's that can be game ending usually favouring the Zacian user because it's still doing damage as it attacks and puts other mons at risk of losing 1v1. As much as I like using Zacian-C for the power it has and the different sets / support you can run with it, I don't believe it's fit for the tier and it puts an unhealthy strain onto building and almost every game that it's in.
Below I'll also drop some thoughts on other possible problem mons because I figure it's a fine time to just drop some preemptive thoughts on them if anything were to happen down the line.
Currently I don't believe Calyrex-S is a banworthy Pokemon, and while it may be on a fine line I don't think it's up to par for the standards bans in Ubers generally have, which is pretty much Mega Ray, Zacian if this goes in favour of the ban, and uncompetitive stuff like the standard clauses + the Arceus situation in dpp. I think Calyrex is a very strong but fine addition to this tier, with it having a much harder time generally breaking through its checks. Yveltal is a super hard wall, as it needs to trick to force any long term progress without constant assisted pressure that only Yveltal can deal with which will not always be how things go, and caly loses the power of specs or the speed of scarf if it does that, meaning it doesn't do as much damage even after rocks for Yveltal to be in immediate danger. It has to come in multiple times, get multiple 50/50's with rocks up and no boots on Yveltal, and then try and win from there. I don't think a mon that has its best sets checked that hard by Yveltal which will always be an amazing mon is banworthy, and ttar also checks it quite hard which I think could realistically see an uptick in usage if Zacian is banned because it doesn't have to run twave or risk being a sitting duck against it. Ho-oh and Blissey can usually beat sub seed unless it's like sub seed taunt in which case Yveltal can just uturn and break sub / snarl which is a very reliable way of beating pretty much every Calyrex set. It's restricting and causes centralization but I don't think that's a terrible thing in ubers, and would like to see it in the meta and if eventually its tour stats and gameplay restrictions start to reach levels of Zacian then it could be an issue in my opinion at least.
Gothitelle is the worst part of this metagame imo. Post Zacian-C it's arguable it'll get worse bc it doesn't have the close to autowin partner shown in this replay linked earlier, but it can just switch its trapping targets or literally just keep to trapping the same things but with new partners. Goth + Xern could exist, Goth + regular Zacian, Goth + Kyogre that ev's into sp.def for etern, even things like Goth + Kyurem B especially if Zacian is removed can work. I think trapping is fine with things like Dugtrio because it's a niche pick with a smaller pool of targets which can also run sets that beat it, but Gothitelle is just way too restricting because if you run shed shell on every mon sure it might be fine, but then you don't have an item slot on anything and the offensive breakers / hazard pressure can just win bc Gothitelle forces an incredibly hard mu fish and it should almost always be in favour of the person using Gothitelle, because it can just beat all balance and can even do something against HO like trapping ridiculous things like spin lead drill with 64 spin pp which is rare but possible, and it can try and charm stall some things or just be a trapping sack that forces things to stay in and be revenged / defogged on.
It puts such a large restriction on teambuilding because you can just bring it and beat most balances, and if you try to goth proof with like Shed Shell everything threats like specs ogre or assurance Zacian can just insta win because there's no item support. Trapping removes a lot of skill imo when it comes to gothitelle, because you can just bring it in safely on hits it lives like Knock Off dusk mane and hit it with a fast charm then win. It forces constant 50/50's that generally favour the goth user a LOT more, and just devolves a game into crit fishing as Gothitelle sets up and steals mons because it was able to switch in. I 100% support a Gothitelle ban, and possibly even gothorita because it's pretty much the same thing just no leftovers, but that's a later topic I hope is something that can be dealt with because imo for most of the gen's lifespan that I played most Gothitelle has been a stupid and unhealthy part of it.
It puts such a large restriction on teambuilding because you can just bring it and beat most balances, and if you try to goth proof with like Shed Shell everything threats like specs ogre or assurance Zacian can just insta win because there's no item support. Trapping removes a lot of skill imo when it comes to gothitelle, because you can just bring it in safely on hits it lives like Knock Off dusk mane and hit it with a fast charm then win. It forces constant 50/50's that generally favour the goth user a LOT more, and just devolves a game into crit fishing as Gothitelle sets up and steals mons because it was able to switch in. I 100% support a Gothitelle ban, and possibly even gothorita because it's pretty much the same thing just no leftovers, but that's a later topic I hope is something that can be dealt with because imo for most of the gen's lifespan that I played most Gothitelle has been a stupid and unhealthy part of it.
Why? Because we are at the point where SOMETHING needs to be done, and I think banning Zacian-C, while it may not fix all the problems the tier has, will still help the metagame improve. It's blatantly obvious things are really fucked up when pretty much every game feels like a matchup fish. Doing nothing is literally the worst thing that could be done. The goddamn thing has no counters, and even what little checks it has are shaky at best. There is literally no reason to keep something that hits harder than Deoxys-Attack, easily gets around what little counterplay it has, and practically takes a huge dump on the type chart.
My thoughts on Zaican-C in DLC 2 as a member of the Ubers council:
The OP and several fellow council members have effectively communicated the reasoning for this suspect, primarily describing how the metagame currently responds to Zacian-C as a major offensive threat. However, there has yet to be substantial discussion on the two central points of the issue at play: the collateral associated with a Zacian-C ban and the extent to which Zacian-C influences the competitive edge and/or premise of play in Ubers.
It's worth briefly clarifying how we got here. The forum poll indicated that most participants were more interested in suspecting Calyrex-SR rather than Zacian-C. The reason Zacian-C is being tested first is because, for the most part, the Ubers council along with other tournament and high ladder players currently consider Zacian-C a greater issue than Calyrex-SR. It's also important to highlight that Ubers has very recently received a major change in its leadership and that a majority of the council has only recently gotten involved in Ubers tiering policy. Although to be expected and no fault of leadership, there is unfortunately an underrepresentation of older era Ubers players in current gen Ubers tiering, with but a single member on the council that has continuous experience in Ubers tiering for ~3+ years. This is merely to highlight how Ubers has reached this critical point in its tiering; the most major since the banning of Mega Rayquaza, and one that may likely shape its identity and relation to neighboring tiers even after its current players are gone.
When I started to get into competitive play, the reason I played Ubers is because its identity as a tier represents the pinacle of competitive singles Pokemon: a format that clauses out uncompetitive elements while minimizing aberration of the game we came here to play. Ubers began as merely a banlist for cover legends whose abilities were so potent that they invalidated the vast majority of Pokemon that were meant to be played with, but over time the tier gained enough of its own elements that it emerged as the new status quo. I'm reminded of a post dice made several years ago about how Ubers has long displaced the original spirit of OU, and now even AG has taken up the original mantle of Ubers. I'm also reminded of something jack m posted a very long time ago that remains as true as ever, which is that a state of "Ubers UU" will inevitably transition into a state identical to OU. It's unfortunate that such a novel concept is so frequently overlooked, but the short version is that if you tier for balance, you're following the same tiering policy as OU, and therefore the end state can only be identical to OU. Ubers' identity, by definition, is broken Pokemon. Ubers can only stay Ubers as long as it tiers against game elements that alter the competitive edge of play, not game elements that are simply broken or too good.
That is not to say that a ban of Zacian-C in of itself is a full realization of such a change in policy, nor has it even been concluded that the Zacian-C ban sentiment is motivated by brokeness rather than uncompetitiveness (although unfortunately it likely is for many of those who will be voting). But one very important question to consider is: at what point in banning Pokemon does Ubers actually cease to be Ubers. This cannot be overstated: there is collateral associated with banning Zacian-C. It could be considered perverse to ban a cover legend for being broken in a tier that was born from broken cover legends. It would also be disheartening if Ubers gave up its current position as the most inclusive competitive tier merely to become an aberration of OU. This consideration has made me recontextualize why I joined Ubers, and if I would do so again if the big new exciting Pokemon like Zacian, Calyrex, or even Yveltal weren't legal.
The other half of the argument is that Zacian-C alters the competitiveness of the tier, to such an extent that Zacian-C is a special case, and so much so that the gains in competitive play exceed the collateral associated with its ban. Zacian-C being a special case is important because otherwise tiering policy inevitably cascade bans, but with Calyrex-SR also on the table for a suspect this is put into question. It's clear that Zacian-C has a substantial impact on gameplay, but there's been a lack of discussion about the extent to which it influences player choices. Instead, most discussion is about how Zacian-C checks are limited, in viability or reliability, yet this is neither relevant to the central dilemma, nor something other Ubers gens don't already experience. With an exception for basic player enjoyment, it's not an issue if games hinge on the effectiveness to which Zacian-C is employed, but rather when interesting player choice is snuffed out by its very presence.
Impact on teambuilding is generally paramount, and tiers where it's not are the exception rather than the norm. A worst case scenario would be a Pokemon that creates a convergence in teambuilding such that there exists one and only one viable team. Ergo, because of the nature of such a Pokemon, there are no interesting choices to make in teambuilding because the game is already solved. Of course this is not the case for Zacian-C, but degree matters, with tour and ladder usage being a natural starting point. Unfortunately these aren't very revealing, and despite there being a handful of highly potent offensive threats within a metagame that has comparatively limited reactive checks and defensive role compressors, a pool of game elements comparable in diversity to other Ubers gens are still utilized in serious play.
The fact remains there are skilled players that do not enjoy the impact Zacian-C has on Ubers, and it seems to come down to the premise of gameplay. More specifically, I think some players don't enjoy the fact that Ubers currently has a lot of emphasis placed on mitigating and utilizing Zacian-C. I think this problem is further compounded by the fact that Zacian-C operates more like a splashable RK / cleaner that's really hard to punish rather than a conventional setup sweeper or beatstick offensive threat. Just as with Dynamax, both the ladder and tournament games show that a competitive game remains with or without it, and while I argued that Dynamax reduced competitive edge due to the nature of its mechanics, I must admit I'm not nearly as convinced with Zacian-C. Either way players have already been given the choice: either they want to play with Zacian-C or they don't, because there's little point in playing a game you don't enjoy.
I thought it essential for this thread to have at least one post that really focused on the central issues, and to represent an articulated viewpoint on Ubers tiering policy and anti-ban arguments which are sorely underrepresented. But perhaps the single most important takeaway I want to leave with is that Ubers is Ubers with or without something like Baton Pass or Dynamax, but I'm not so sure (in the long run at least) the same can be said for Zacian or Calyrex.
The OP and several fellow council members have effectively communicated the reasoning for this suspect, primarily describing how the metagame currently responds to Zacian-C as a major offensive threat. However, there has yet to be substantial discussion on the two central points of the issue at play: the collateral associated with a Zacian-C ban and the extent to which Zacian-C influences the competitive edge and/or premise of play in Ubers.
It's worth briefly clarifying how we got here. The forum poll indicated that most participants were more interested in suspecting Calyrex-SR rather than Zacian-C. The reason Zacian-C is being tested first is because, for the most part, the Ubers council along with other tournament and high ladder players currently consider Zacian-C a greater issue than Calyrex-SR. It's also important to highlight that Ubers has very recently received a major change in its leadership and that a majority of the council has only recently gotten involved in Ubers tiering policy. Although to be expected and no fault of leadership, there is unfortunately an underrepresentation of older era Ubers players in current gen Ubers tiering, with but a single member on the council that has continuous experience in Ubers tiering for ~3+ years. This is merely to highlight how Ubers has reached this critical point in its tiering; the most major since the banning of Mega Rayquaza, and one that may likely shape its identity and relation to neighboring tiers even after its current players are gone.
When I started to get into competitive play, the reason I played Ubers is because its identity as a tier represents the pinacle of competitive singles Pokemon: a format that clauses out uncompetitive elements while minimizing aberration of the game we came here to play. Ubers began as merely a banlist for cover legends whose abilities were so potent that they invalidated the vast majority of Pokemon that were meant to be played with, but over time the tier gained enough of its own elements that it emerged as the new status quo. I'm reminded of a post dice made several years ago about how Ubers has long displaced the original spirit of OU, and now even AG has taken up the original mantle of Ubers. I'm also reminded of something jack m posted a very long time ago that remains as true as ever, which is that a state of "Ubers UU" will inevitably transition into a state identical to OU. It's unfortunate that such a novel concept is so frequently overlooked, but the short version is that if you tier for balance, you're following the same tiering policy as OU, and therefore the end state can only be identical to OU. Ubers' identity, by definition, is broken Pokemon. Ubers can only stay Ubers as long as it tiers against game elements that alter the competitive edge of play, not game elements that are simply broken or too good.
That is not to say that a ban of Zacian-C in of itself is a full realization of such a change in policy, nor has it even been concluded that the Zacian-C ban sentiment is motivated by brokeness rather than uncompetitiveness (although unfortunately it likely is for many of those who will be voting). But one very important question to consider is: at what point in banning Pokemon does Ubers actually cease to be Ubers. This cannot be overstated: there is collateral associated with banning Zacian-C. It could be considered perverse to ban a cover legend for being broken in a tier that was born from broken cover legends. It would also be disheartening if Ubers gave up its current position as the most inclusive competitive tier merely to become an aberration of OU. This consideration has made me recontextualize why I joined Ubers, and if I would do so again if the big new exciting Pokemon like Zacian, Calyrex, or even Yveltal weren't legal.
The other half of the argument is that Zacian-C alters the competitiveness of the tier, to such an extent that Zacian-C is a special case, and so much so that the gains in competitive play exceed the collateral associated with its ban. Zacian-C being a special case is important because otherwise tiering policy inevitably cascade bans, but with Calyrex-SR also on the table for a suspect this is put into question. It's clear that Zacian-C has a substantial impact on gameplay, but there's been a lack of discussion about the extent to which it influences player choices. Instead, most discussion is about how Zacian-C checks are limited, in viability or reliability, yet this is neither relevant to the central dilemma, nor something other Ubers gens don't already experience. With an exception for basic player enjoyment, it's not an issue if games hinge on the effectiveness to which Zacian-C is employed, but rather when interesting player choice is snuffed out by its very presence.
Impact on teambuilding is generally paramount, and tiers where it's not are the exception rather than the norm. A worst case scenario would be a Pokemon that creates a convergence in teambuilding such that there exists one and only one viable team. Ergo, because of the nature of such a Pokemon, there are no interesting choices to make in teambuilding because the game is already solved. Of course this is not the case for Zacian-C, but degree matters, with tour and ladder usage being a natural starting point. Unfortunately these aren't very revealing, and despite there being a handful of highly potent offensive threats within a metagame that has comparatively limited reactive checks and defensive role compressors, a pool of game elements comparable in diversity to other Ubers gens are still utilized in serious play.
The fact remains there are skilled players that do not enjoy the impact Zacian-C has on Ubers, and it seems to come down to the premise of gameplay. More specifically, I think some players don't enjoy the fact that Ubers currently has a lot of emphasis placed on mitigating and utilizing Zacian-C. I think this problem is further compounded by the fact that Zacian-C operates more like a splashable RK / cleaner that's really hard to punish rather than a conventional setup sweeper or beatstick offensive threat. Just as with Dynamax, both the ladder and tournament games show that a competitive game remains with or without it, and while I argued that Dynamax reduced competitive edge due to the nature of its mechanics, I must admit I'm not nearly as convinced with Zacian-C. Either way players have already been given the choice: either they want to play with Zacian-C or they don't, because there's little point in playing a game you don't enjoy.
I thought it essential for this thread to have at least one post that really focused on the central issues, and to represent an articulated viewpoint on Ubers tiering policy and anti-ban arguments which are sorely underrepresented. But perhaps the single most important takeaway I want to leave with is that Ubers is Ubers with or without something like Baton Pass or Dynamax, but I'm not so sure (in the long run at least) the same can be said for Zacian or Calyrex.
Zacian should be banned it has absolutly no reliable counters. Dusk-Mane needs to be at 87+% to survive two CCs from Zacian with Lefties and SR.Quagsire doesn't generate Pressure so Zacian can switch out into another Team member and come back in later to generate Pressure if they don't heal on the switch.
I was not expecting a massive amount of reactions to my post. It is clear that pro-banners have strong feelings about this pokemon, and I respect that. However, please recognize that it's possible for other people to not agree with you. I will be focusing on the practical side of discussion, as that Minority has made an excellent post covering why it's philosophically wrong to ban Zacian-C.
It seems like people are not contesting the point that banning Zacian-C will not improve the competitiveness of Ubers. From my observations in MW games and Ubers Championships, the better players overwhelmingly have the dominion over the worse players.
I think the most important point to discuss is the #2 point. This is the most contested point that I raised. I do realize that fun is endlessly subjective, and I understand that a lot of people get different things out of this game. Some of the most common arguments for banning Zacian-C will make Ubers more fun are:
1) It will ease the teambuilding restrictions which will lead more fun teambuilding experience.
I do not agree with this because it is fun and interesting to approach game with such as an overpowered yet competitive threat. The experience reminds me of excitement and enjoyment that I had when I was building teams to defeat Geomancy Xerneas in XY. Sure, the threat is massive, and it's equally massively rewarding experience to tower over it.
Manaphy actually wrote a in-depth excellent post about all sort of possible checks/counters for Zacian-C. It made me realize just how much variety and diversity is possible in this metagame. It also provides spotlight for previously unused/extreme fringe pokemon such as Dugtrio, Quagsire, and Ditto. It's a beautiful thing to see when the top predator is able to increase the diversity of game.
The last point that I want to raise is the perverse outcome that's quite likely to occur. It's extremely unlikely that the basic structures would change as a result of Zacian-C being banned because Zacian-H and Xerneas would simply take its place as partner for Calyrex-S. More on this in meta worsening discussion.
2) Games will become more fun/interesting when a powerful offensive tool is removed from the game.
Yes, Zacian-C is a powerful pokemon. Nobody is denying that. I really like how it's possible to use a powerful, fast, and bulky pokemon well to get my wins. Is it unfair? I don't think so. Anyone playing Ubers have equal access to such as a powerful tool. It's up to them to use it well and skillfully to win. From what I have seen from SS games, they are entertaining and fun. I find Zacian-C smashing through pokemon to be enjoyable. I also like how Zacian-C is able to tank unexpected attacks with its bulk and punish the weaker pokemons.
The third point that I raised is that banning Zacian-C will worsen the metagame. Here's why:
I also think that Zacian-H has potential to be even more toxic than Zacian-C because of its variance in item slot. How would you feel if your lovely hand-crafted sticky team got invalidated by a simple HDB Zacian-H? Your balance team by a LO Zacian-H (Btw, this is stronger than Zacian-C you kekkers)? The possibilities are endless. The only reason that Zacian-H isn't so crazy good is because of the existence of powerful fairy resist pokemon that's faster than Zacian-H that also gives an opportunity cost for using Zacian-H. Power Herb for Quagsire and Groudon. Lum for TWave checks. It goes on.
In my opinion, the banning of Zacian-C will lead to a series of toxic cycles of volatile Zacian-H trends trying to cheese players' most commonly used archetypes with the massive variance in item slot. It will lead to a perverse outcome of trying to reduce match up only to exacerbate it to even more ridiculous degree.
It seems like people are not contesting the point that banning Zacian-C will not improve the competitiveness of Ubers. From my observations in MW games and Ubers Championships, the better players overwhelmingly have the dominion over the worse players.
I think the most important point to discuss is the #2 point. This is the most contested point that I raised. I do realize that fun is endlessly subjective, and I understand that a lot of people get different things out of this game. Some of the most common arguments for banning Zacian-C will make Ubers more fun are:
1) It will ease the teambuilding restrictions which will lead more fun teambuilding experience.
I do not agree with this because it is fun and interesting to approach game with such as an overpowered yet competitive threat. The experience reminds me of excitement and enjoyment that I had when I was building teams to defeat Geomancy Xerneas in XY. Sure, the threat is massive, and it's equally massively rewarding experience to tower over it.
Manaphy actually wrote a in-depth excellent post about all sort of possible checks/counters for Zacian-C. It made me realize just how much variety and diversity is possible in this metagame. It also provides spotlight for previously unused/extreme fringe pokemon such as Dugtrio, Quagsire, and Ditto. It's a beautiful thing to see when the top predator is able to increase the diversity of game.
The last point that I want to raise is the perverse outcome that's quite likely to occur. It's extremely unlikely that the basic structures would change as a result of Zacian-C being banned because Zacian-H and Xerneas would simply take its place as partner for Calyrex-S. More on this in meta worsening discussion.
2) Games will become more fun/interesting when a powerful offensive tool is removed from the game.
Yes, Zacian-C is a powerful pokemon. Nobody is denying that. I really like how it's possible to use a powerful, fast, and bulky pokemon well to get my wins. Is it unfair? I don't think so. Anyone playing Ubers have equal access to such as a powerful tool. It's up to them to use it well and skillfully to win. From what I have seen from SS games, they are entertaining and fun. I find Zacian-C smashing through pokemon to be enjoyable. I also like how Zacian-C is able to tank unexpected attacks with its bulk and punish the weaker pokemons.
The third point that I raised is that banning Zacian-C will worsen the metagame. Here's why:
I also think that Zacian-H has potential to be even more toxic than Zacian-C because of its variance in item slot. How would you feel if your lovely hand-crafted sticky team got invalidated by a simple HDB Zacian-H? Your balance team by a LO Zacian-H (Btw, this is stronger than Zacian-C you kekkers)? The possibilities are endless. The only reason that Zacian-H isn't so crazy good is because of the existence of powerful fairy resist pokemon that's faster than Zacian-H that also gives an opportunity cost for using Zacian-H. Power Herb for Quagsire and Groudon. Lum for TWave checks. It goes on.
In my opinion, the banning of Zacian-C will lead to a series of toxic cycles of volatile Zacian-H trends trying to cheese players' most commonly used archetypes with the massive variance in item slot. It will lead to a perverse outcome of trying to reduce match up only to exacerbate it to even more ridiculous degree.
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I'm still of the opinion that Calyrex-SR should have been the one suspected first. The item slot is pretty huge, and we have seen Zacian be more handle-able in non-Caly-SR metas. The difference in the poll was about 6 people for the those who wanted Zacian-C first among the higher tier of players.
Zacian is still to me too powerful to deal with. The lack of steel typing hurts Zac-H a fair bit when it comes to dealing with it defensively and offensively, and Zac-C to me is still too restrictive to handle satisfactorily. I'm voting ban, but if it doesnt get banned I dont think that Calyrex should be off the table as being suspected.
Zacian is still to me too powerful to deal with. The lack of steel typing hurts Zac-H a fair bit when it comes to dealing with it defensively and offensively, and Zac-C to me is still too restrictive to handle satisfactorily. I'm voting ban, but if it doesnt get banned I dont think that Calyrex should be off the table as being suspected.
I just think Zacian is unhealthy and should be ban. Max defense groudon with rocky helmet only switches once. Dusk can be dealt with SD or assurance on the switc, no mentioning that it must be healthy to check it.
This is the first gen where rayquaza mewtwo, giratina, palkia and dialga are nowhere to be seen. Not even in gen7.
Banning Zacian will alow this pokemon to carve a niche. I have tried spe def dialga with chople berry and twave to cripple both Zacian and calyrex. I would like to talk about calyrex but this isnt the time for it.
This is the first gen where rayquaza mewtwo, giratina, palkia and dialga are nowhere to be seen. Not even in gen7.
Banning Zacian will alow this pokemon to carve a niche. I have tried spe def dialga with chople berry and twave to cripple both Zacian and calyrex. I would like to talk about calyrex but this isnt the time for it.
Imma be honest, i can understand and tbh, agree with this thought process, and while i do agree, i don't agree this being a reason to not ban Zacian-C. I definitely agree with this and I'll honestly think bout this on banning Caly-G on this too.
Palkia and Dialga actually saw a respectable amount of usage at both #17 and #18 respectively (1630 usage stats). Palkia is even A- rank in the viability rankings, and it's a good check to Kyogre that can threaten the opposition very hard with it's strong power and great coverage.
The issue is, Quagsire generally can't do anything back to Zacian-C because it takes so much damage, it's pretty much forced to heal up right after, and pretty much winds up in a "heal or die" situation (also, if Zacian gets a crit, it's game over for Quagsire). And that's ignoring the fact that Quagsire might wind up having been damaged by other mons prior, or may be coming in on hazards. It's also easy prey for Gothitelle to come in and trap it. Also, on the off chance your opponent DOESN'T have Zacian-Crowned, you're essentially playing 5 against 6 because Quagsire isn't good for much else besides trying to check Zacian-C. What's more, if you actually read Manaphy's post (or watched the replays they linked), you'd know that most of the stuff that tries to deal with Zacian-Crowned is extremely passive and can be played around anyway (Lugia is also very passive, and thus pretty much doomed to get stuck in a healing loop like Quagsire is, as if it's not at max health, it'll get plowed under; Ditto can't transform if the opponent has a sub up; even Dusk-Mane Necrozma can't afford to come in on hazards, and it also has to beware of Gothitelle).
The problem is that it's just too powerful, not unlike Mega Rayquaza. Saying "you can use it too" ignores the main issue, which is that it's overcentralizing. I think Dracovish is a nice parallel to it. It was mainly countered by mons with Water Absorb or Storm Drain. Why, then, did it get banned? Because it pretty much forced you to run Seismitoad or some other water immune mon to not get annihilated by Fishious Rend (to put things into perspective, even Ferrothorn and Toxapex, which both resist it AND have sky high Defense, get 2HKOed if Dracovish is banded). Being powerful is one thing, but when a mon pretty much blatantly disregards the type chart, it's a big problem. I don't get much enjoyment from relying on a blatantly overpowered crutch that all but eliminates the need for strategy because even its supposed checks cannot take many hits from it in the first place and are thus forced into passiveness (which makes them Gothitelle bait).
That is not a valid argument against banning it. If normal Zacian turns out to be broken as well, then it must go too.
I personally dont like this, and think that that sort of argument only strengthens Orch's position. The reason for Zacian-C (and Calyrex) to be banned is that they are at a significant power level above all other threats, and in my mind its too much of a difference. Merely being broken isnt enough of a criteria, or I'd want Kyogre and Groudon banned too. The difference for me with these two is the extent to which they are broken being so much above everything else that without hyper-specific prep, you get rolled, and even with the specific prep they can just run train through even their checks.
We definitely do not want to have ubers in a state where we are walking backwards on our power level until we get to OU. If something is going to be banned for how absurdly good it is, it needs to be significantly better than everything else by a huge margin, and we should always be looking at bringing anything back if we feel the meta might be able to cope (ie: arceus re-release).
Whether it becomes like OU is not relevant. Ubers is its own independent meta, and thus should be evaluated on its own merit. Given nobody has even bothered to think about this argument shows what people actually want out of the meta.
I personally agree with what Orch has said.
While I find Zacian to be extremely powerful, i have learned my way to deal with it. Ubers is a tier where all biggest threats are supposed to compete, and I see no issue whatsoever in one or two being dominant. Unlike Mega Rayquaza, you should point out that Zacian can’t hold an item, the only benefit from that is to take easy the Knock off from Yveltal, but you anyway wouldn’t switch in risking to take a lot from foul play.
I do believe that Zacian works really well as a cleaner and breaker. I find that to be good. People complain on having to run HDB/Rocky Helmet Necrozma Dusk-Mane, but when DM was used spe def during previous genrerations just to beat GeoXern, nobody was saying it was a concern at all. It’s literally the same as Clefable in OU that changes the bulk it needs to check what it needs to.
We’re almost certainly going to ban Zacian, then Calyrex ( for some reasons, people were okay running Phy def Yveltal to beat Ekiller, but are not okay running spe def for Calyrex?!), then people are going to complain that GeoXern is busted, that Zygarde is busted etc. Some teams are designed in a passive way and some are made offensive, it’s normal to run the appropriate checks when you’re running a slow team, and normal to be forced to sack something to get in your own threat while running offense.
I don’t mind Zacian leaving the tier, if there was actually a possibility to abstain from saying ban or no ban I would chose this one.
Unlike Dynamax that was a stupid broken mechanic, this feels like it’s just people not admitting that an Uber threat is a huge threat but can be deal with. I’m positive that what people consider to be the best set ( Play Rough, CC, Wild Charge, Assurance) can be used with regular Zacian and it will do the same. Just will lack the steel typing.
While I find Zacian to be extremely powerful, i have learned my way to deal with it. Ubers is a tier where all biggest threats are supposed to compete, and I see no issue whatsoever in one or two being dominant. Unlike Mega Rayquaza, you should point out that Zacian can’t hold an item, the only benefit from that is to take easy the Knock off from Yveltal, but you anyway wouldn’t switch in risking to take a lot from foul play.
I do believe that Zacian works really well as a cleaner and breaker. I find that to be good. People complain on having to run HDB/Rocky Helmet Necrozma Dusk-Mane, but when DM was used spe def during previous genrerations just to beat GeoXern, nobody was saying it was a concern at all. It’s literally the same as Clefable in OU that changes the bulk it needs to check what it needs to.
We’re almost certainly going to ban Zacian, then Calyrex ( for some reasons, people were okay running Phy def Yveltal to beat Ekiller, but are not okay running spe def for Calyrex?!), then people are going to complain that GeoXern is busted, that Zygarde is busted etc. Some teams are designed in a passive way and some are made offensive, it’s normal to run the appropriate checks when you’re running a slow team, and normal to be forced to sack something to get in your own threat while running offense.
I don’t mind Zacian leaving the tier, if there was actually a possibility to abstain from saying ban or no ban I would chose this one.
Unlike Dynamax that was a stupid broken mechanic, this feels like it’s just people not admitting that an Uber threat is a huge threat but can be deal with. I’m positive that what people consider to be the best set ( Play Rough, CC, Wild Charge, Assurance) can be used with regular Zacian and it will do the same. Just will lack the steel typing.
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