np: LC - Blackbird, now with Voting!

[Ice-eyes]

If they get banned. Murkrow, I'm on the fence, but I don't actually think Meditite is broken atm.

 

[Crux]

Drought is terrible for the metagame because of everything kokoloko said. It's powerful, too hard to counter, and the metagame is more enjoyable and diverse without it. Those of you who said that Hippopotas and Snover counter sun, have you realized that pretty much every pokemon on a sun team carries either a grass or fire move? Most of these pokemon are resistant to fighting priority, so Dokkora and Croagunk aren't going to work here. The fact is, Sun teams can eliminate their counters easily, can set up easily to blow through evo stone pokemon, are too fast to be killed, and really aren't hit hard by priority. Drought cannot stay in this metagame.

And read the post on sun. Snover is handled by the HP fire that pretty much every sun sweeper has, and vulpix can switch in on it with ease and kill it. You can take the sun off the field briefly, but it'll just come back after it kills your sun counter, and then what? And Hippopotas is going to die to any of the STAB grass moves carried by sun sweepers like Bellsprout. Is it really a good idea to switch your hippopotas into a +2 Bellsprout? And then after Hippopotas is gone, Vulpix is just going to come back in again. Murkrow can sort of counter it, but not completely. Murkrow can still fall to some of the more powerful sun sweepers. And there's a good chance that Murkrow will be gone, so then that's just one less sun counter. And really, Swablu isn't great outside of countering sun. If the sun sweepers have built up enough boosts with Growth, Lickitung and Swablu can still be blasted away. And even if they don't have enough boosts, it's not too hard to slap on a fighting type onto a sun team to take care of Lickitung and Swablu

Wait, you're saying that if you prepare for the counters of your playstyle you might actually build a good team? SURELY NOT!

Drought Sweeper are easily stopped by Snover. Switch in on a Solarbeam and KO with Blizzard, because the sweeper is essentially trapped. Same with Swablu and Lickitung. Realistically, Drought sweepers are so easy to counter it's not funny. Hell, you don't even have to run any of those Pokemon to beat Drought. If you build a good team, where you actually consider Drought whilst making it, Drought is not a threat at all. Dokkora, for example, runs right through most Sun sweepers.

This has been largely overlooked, but DeepSeaTooth is broken. It was broken last gen, and with Shell Smash is even more broken this gen. After one Shell Break, Clamperl gets +2 Atk, +4 SAtk, and +2 Spe. Yikes. Clamperl reaches a max of 26 speed after a shell smash, which speed ties pokemon like Scarf Magby (who isn't going to want to lose that speed tie. Pretty much everything is OHKO'd by Clamperl, who gets great coverage with Surf, Ice Beam, and either HP Electric or Grass. I know it's not terribly common, but when people start using it, it'll become much scarier.

Deepseatooth was broken last gen because nothing could take the hits. Now, with evolution stone, it is far less threatening, even with Shell Break. Clamperl lacks priority, it fairly frail, even with evo stone and isnt very fast. Additionally, it also has to find time to actually set up... Which isnt the easiest thing in the world.

EDIT: In terms of Murkrow, I know it seems wierd but I have always thought of Murkrow not to be just one Pokemon, but several, kinda like Arceus in Ubers. Sure, it's pretty diverse and has loads of different options, but all of its sets have multiple counters, you just need to be imaginative. You also have six slots on your team...

 

[Nails]

If they get banned. Murkrow, I'm on the fence, but I don't actually think Meditite is broken atm.

I feel like the meta is better without them, but I have no evidence to back it up with. They aren't nearly as bad as scyther or yanma, and don't make the meta unplayable at all (LC is better than ou right now) but I just think they have slightly too much power and the game would be more balanced without them.

 

[smashlloyd20]

In terms of Murkrow, I know it seems wierd but I have always thought of Murkrow not to be just one Pokemon, but several, kinda like Arceus in Ubers. Sure, it's pretty diverse and has loads of different options, but all of its sets have multiple counters, you just need to be imaginative. You also have six slots on your team...

Uhhh, no. The thing about Murkrow's diversity is that its set isn't revealed until it attacks. If Murkrow truly were several different Pokemon, you could see them in the team preview and prepare accordingly. As is, you really can't send anything in on Murkrow until you know its set. You can switch in Gligar to wall a supposed CM set...but what if it's an attack set with HP Ice? The problem is you can't really send out a Pokemon initially to counter Murkrow until you know its set, because if you guess the wrong set your 'counter' will get blasted into oblivion. It's similar to the Mix/DD Mence argument in Gen 4; you don't know what it's going to do until it screws you over.

 

[sax king]

Wait, you're saying that if you prepare for the counters of your playstyle you might actually build a good team? SURELY NOT!

Drought Sweeper are easily stopped by Snover. Switch in on a Solarbeam and KO with Blizzard, because the sweeper is essentially trapped. Same with Swablu and Lickitung. Realistically, Drought sweepers are so easy to counter it's not funny. Hell, you don't even have to run any of those Pokemon to beat Drought. If you build a good team, where you actually consider Drought whilst making it, Drought is not a threat at all. Dokkora, for example, runs right through most Sun sweepers.

Drought sweepers are not stopped by Snover at all. Pretty much ever sun team pokemon has a fire attack of some sort, and Snover is not going to want to switch into any of those. Snover is pretty much a free switch in for any fire type (including Vulpix) who can maim it, then continue sweeping. Swablu may have its uses in stopping sun teams, but it's not going to be able to take boosted attacks from Growth sweepers and has pretty much no use outside of countering sun. Lickitung has its uses, but I'm not going to put six Lickitungs on my team. The part about sun being so easy to counter is just wrong. I'm sorry, but there are no switch ins, no pokemon that outspeed, and no survivors. And Dokkora won't have such an easy time using Mach Punch against Poison types like Bellsprout, and won't like taking a +2 Solarbeam to the face afterwards. I've said this before: Evo Stone Bellsprout has the following boosts after just one Growth: +2 Atk, +1 Def, +2 SAtk, +1 SDef, +2 Spe. Now stack that on top of a STAB 120 BP move, healing with Giga Drain, and boosted Hidden Power Fires.

Deepseatooth was broken last gen because nothing could take the hits. Now, with evolution stone, it is far less threatening, even with Shell Break. Clamperl lacks priority, it fairly frail, even with evo stone and isnt very fast. Additionally, it also has to find time to actually set up... Which isnt the easiest thing in the world.

You're right, nothing could take the Deepseatooth hits last gen, and the Evo Stone is a great answer to that. But GF also introduced Shell Smash. So although the Evo Stone kind of cancels out the Deepseatooth, Shell Smash gives it a whole new face. Deepseatooth and Shell Smash can't be on the same set. I'll show you these boosts again: After one Shell Smash, Clamperl gets +2 Atk, -1 Def, +2 SAtk, -1 SDef, and +2 Spe. After a Shell Smash with a Deepseatooth, the entire SAtk stat is doubled, making it +2 Atk, -1 Def, +6 SAtk, -1 SDef, and +2 Spe. That's like using a Special Belly Drum and Agility in one turn.

EDIT: In terms of Murkrow, I know it seems wierd but I have always thought of Murkrow not to be just one Pokemon, but several, kinda like Arceus in Ubers. Sure, it's pretty diverse and has loads of different options, but all of its sets have multiple counters, you just need to be imaginative. You also have six slots on your team...

Smash is right. You can't just tell what set Murkrow is going to run until you're already dead. Being imaginative isn't quite going to cut it. One Murkrow set has already killed half my team by the time I can send in the proper counter. And there is no perfect Murkrow counter, no pokemon can take on every type of set. I may have six slots on my team, but I'm not going to dedicate every single one to a counter to a different Murkrow set. I mean you could, and you'd be really prepared if you encountered a Murkrow, but any other pokemon could murder your team. So there's no way to perfectly counter Murkrow, and there's no way to stop it until it's too late.

 

[Crux]

Like I said in my post, Snover counters most Sun sweepers if it switches in on a Solarbeam, nowhere did I say that Snover should be switching in on a predicted HP Fire. Whilst it is true that fire types can proceed to switch in to Snover, if Snover switches in on a Solarbeam, it is a guaranteed, free kill. Swablu is by no means useless outside of its role as weather stopper. It is nearly impenetrable after a single Cotton Guard and has access to a superb healing move. Lickitung is also quite good out side of sun and stops most stall and sun teams in their tracks. Hippopotas, a staple on most stall teams, can also be quite effective at beating sun, however it doesn't really like taking STAB Solarbeams. Other than those, all of which are hard sun counters, there are many checks to the best sun sweepers. Dokkora, for example, rapes Exeggecute and Bellsprout with Payback.

Realistically, Vulpix itself is also fairly easy to beat. Diglett, for example, who is a superb Pokemon in this meta, checking multiple Pokemon (including certain Murkrow variants) whilst also having the ability to trap Vulpix and KO it with STAB Earthquake. Vulpix's fire typing give it several unfortunate weaknesses, including a rock type weakness, which severely limit the amount of times it can switch in and out, thus limiting the amount of times it can set up sun. Whilst it is true that your opponent is certainly not going to willingly sacrifice their most important Pokemon without good reason, Vulpix can certainly be trapped or forced out. In addition to that, Water Pulse Snover beats Vulpix, although it has little use outside of that.

Clamperl is generally considered to be a poor Shell Smash user due to it's poor speed and lack of priority. This allows it to be taken advantage of by Pokemon such as Croagunk (who is also useful to beat Zuruggu.) Clamperl's (insert big number here) Special Attack is irrelevant when it can't even get an attack in. The truth is, in Little Cup (from my experience anyway) Shell Break is severely overrated. Yes it boost your stats. Yes Clamperl has phenomenal Special Attack after a boost. Yes not much will like taking a hit from it. But Clamperl also has significant weaknesses which can very easily be taken advantage of.

My Murkrow analogy is just that, an analogy. I didn't use it because I wanted to argue about Ubers, I used it because I find the Salamence analogy to not fully describe Murkrow. You don't know what type or set your opponent runs until Arceus comes in. Murkrow is kinda similar (I'm not saying Krow is broken.) Additionally, I was just stating how I tend to view Murkrow, especially when it comes to team building. Its sets differ to such a great degree that it is almost as if each Murkrow set is a seperate Pokemon in itself. These are several Pokemon that Murkrow has trouble beating, no matter what set it runs. Murkrow can't rely on HP Ice to KO Gligar, because it doesn't KO. Murkrow can't run Heat Wave with Mischeivous Heart so Komatana is quite safe against nearly all Murkrow variants. Realistically, while Murkrow is superb and difficult to counter, you shouldnt be relying on counters to beat it.

 

[Articanus]

So all of a sudden your opponent is going to make it easy to kill the most important member of their team?

Some of the arguments in this thread have really made me cringe. Or maybe lack there-of.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Here's the thing Crux. The Murkrow-Arceus thing doesn't work. You can see what type Arceus is in team preview. Not so for Murkrow, you can't see what set it is. And I grant that any given team probably has checks to all Murkrow sets, but how do you know which check to send in? If you predict incorrectly, your check will either get killed or set up on on the switch. Until you know Murkrow's set you can't do anything to it.

 

[Nails]

Here's the thing Crux. The Murkrow-Arceus thing doesn't work. You can see what type Arceus is in team preview. Not so for Murkrow, you can't see what set it is. And I grant that any given team probably has checks to all Murkrow sets, but how do you know which check to send in? If you predict incorrectly, your check will either get killed or set up on on the switch. Until you know Murkrow's set you can't do anything to it.

lolwut. have you played ubers? you see they have an arceus and that it's holding an item.

 

[smashlloyd20]

lolwut. have you played ubers? you see they have an arceus and that it's holding an item.

Oops, sorry. I don't play Ubers. I'm going to try and think of a reasonable argument here.

 

[Engineer Pikachu]

I think that Murkrow is even worse than Arceus in terms of unpredictability. When Arceus switches in, you can see its type and kind of figure out what set it's running (or narrow it down considerably). With Murkrow, each set's appearance is exactly the same, and one move doesn't reveal the others.

 

[Nails]

nah. arceus is far more unpredictable. don't try and say stuff like that. krow is always the same type and is running an offensive physical or mixed set or a defensive cm set. arceus can be an offensive mon with sd + espeed or a bulky calm minder or a support mon... except you don't know what type it is. Krow is not more unpredictable than arceus.

 

[kokoloko]

None of this matters... Ubers is supposed to be unbalanced while the goal here is to try to balance LC. So anything having to do with Arceus is completely irrelevant.

 

[Crux]

Yes, the only reason I brought Arceus up is because I thought the Salamence analogy didn't really fit. If I had known it would derail the topic so much, I wouldn't have said it.

 

[smashlloyd20]

Good, then.

But I feel the Salamence analogy really fits. Just like Murkrow, Mence was capable of running multiple highly powerful sets that had different counters.

 

[SkyNet]

You're right, nothing could take the Deepseatooth hits last gen, and the Evo Stone is a great answer to that. But GF also introduced Shell Smash. So although the Evo Stone kind of cancels out the Deepseatooth, Shell Smash gives it a whole new face. Deepseatooth and Shell Smash can't be on the same set. I'll show you these boosts again: After one Shell Smash, Clamperl gets +2 Atk, -1 Def, +2 SAtk, -1 SDef, and +2 Spe. After a Shell Smash with a Deepseatooth, the entire SAtk stat is doubled, making it +2 Atk, -1 Def, +6 SAtk, -1 SDef, and +2 Spe. That's like using a Special Belly Drum and Agility in one turn.

First off this game is never played on paper, any smart player is never going to let you set up for free and if you do manage to get a shell break up you're now at -1 Def/SpDef. Enter the priory user, most teams carry a priory so most teams can handle shell break sweepers without having a 'specialised counter'

I agree with Crux on his Drought and Murkrow arguments.

 

[Heysup]

Good, then.

But I feel the Salamence analogy really fits. Just like Murkrow, Mence was capable of running multiple highly powerful sets that had different counters.

You're completely taking the wrong part of the Gen 4 Salamence argument, because Salamence was not banned for having two sets with different (barely different....lol) counters.

Mence was mostly banned because of the MixMence set. Draco Meteor + EQ / Outrage / Fire Blast would 2HKO most everything. Of course, the DD set is considered, but it is far more dangerous than CM Krow. If you switch your Mix Krow counter into CM Krow, what's going to happen? You get featherdanced? It sets up +1 SpA and SpD? You can easily wall that with more dangerous Pokemon such as Munchlax Lickitung and the like (depending on the Mono Attack). DD Mence, on the other hand, will destroy you.

 

[NeoSeth]

Yeah, I really don't like the Mence analogy. With Mence, switching your DDmence counter into MixMence was a KO, and switching your MixMence counter into DDmence would get you swept (That's not as detailed as it should be, maybe slightly exaggerated, and I might get flak for it, but I don't care).

With Murkrow, switching your MixKrow counter into CMKrow isn't an automatic loss/KO like everyone says. Run Munchlax, or Likitung, or Stockpile Lileep in the sand (Pretty specific, but that's the set with Toxic, which is the only one that can really do anything to Krow rather than just stalling out). There are plently of specially-bulky Pokemon out there who can easily counter Krow. Heck, Komatana can run Taunt and 4x resist HP Dark. It also resists HP Flying. These are some very common Pokemon.

Also, switching your CMKrow counter into a Mixkrow is a problem only depending on what you send in. If Gligar is your CMKrow counter, and you get HP Iced, then yes, you'll get 2HKOd if you lose the speed tie. But a good team builder should run a better MixKrow check than Gligar (Since, in my experience, a lot of MixKrow's run HP Ice), or run a secondary check. Heck (Dare I say it?), run secondary checks for all big threats. Also, Evo Stone, as much as it buffs Krow, also buffs your Pokemon, making it a lot easier to take Murkrow's attacks than it used to be.

I feel like Murkrow is really being overexaggerated, and like Crux said earlier in this thread, everyone's freaking out about things that are just good, as opposed to being broken, which is what we are trying to identify.

 

[Heysup]

My point was more that if you switch your MixKrow check into CMKrow, you can just switch out and still beat it since it's not that dangerous.

 

[NeoSeth]

Yeah, I went a little off lol.

But I totally agree.

 

[v]

Sorry for the delay guys, but real life>Pokemon! I've updated the OP with information on how to vote, so go nuts! You can keep discussing the Suspects here if you want to continue try and convince the opposition. I hope to see a lot of voters apply, and I hope you enjoy yourselves in the process!

 

[smashlloyd20]

Slightly confused. Can anyone vote?

 

[SkyNet]

Slightly confused. Can anyone vote?

Anyone can send in Ballots, then the voters are chosen on the quality of their paragraphs.

 

[Zephyr]

I'm glad there was a point to laddering so hard for weeks. -_-

But alright, will get to this when I have the chance.

 

[Moo]

Is voting rights based solely on paragraphs?