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Fine.

It's the standard that Zuruggu has Dragon Dance, Crunch, a fighting-move, and an extra slot to do whatever it wants.

This extra slot can be used to fit in a move that kills counters.

Like ZHB.

Or Ice Punch.

Amirite?
 

SkyNet

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Fine.

It's the standard that Zuruggu has Dragon Dance, Crunch, a fighting-move, and an extra slot to do whatever it wants.

This extra slot can be used to fit in a move that kills counters.

Like ZHB.

Or Ice Punch.

Amirite?
How often do you see Zen Headbutt being run on Zuruggu, even if you decide to run ZHB > Ice punch your hard walled by Gligar.

Standard is Dragon Dance / Drain Punch / Ice Punch / Crunch
 

Nails

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It's not like gligar is that hard to counter if you run ZHB, and what gligar would switch into a Zuruggu that's setting up a DD?? And the fact that Zuruggu can bypass its counters by simply changing its moveset is why I think it's broken. It's the same reason I think Meditite is broken; by running one extra move (Tpunch), it can defeat its main counter (slowpoke). Or murkrow beats its counters by running hp ice/sub (gligar/slowpoke), even while still running the offensive set. A team shouldn't be required to run Dokkora, Gligar, and Slowpoke just to be able to switch into Murkrow and Zuruggu's sets, and then sac their wall because they weren't running the moveset you thought it was.
 
Fine.

It's the standard that Zuruggu has Dragon Dance, Crunch, a fighting-move, and an extra slot to do whatever it wants.

This extra slot can be used to fit in a move that kills counters.

Like ZHB.

Or Ice Punch.

Amirite?
Rofl. You just did it again.

Let me just try to shine a light on what it is that you're saying by using another example.

Let's pick a Pokemon, say meditite (or any fighting-type) since it has a very nice movepool, much like Zuruggu. I am going to argue that meditite is broken because nothing can switch into it.

Slowpoke you say? LO ThunderPunch watup
Pururiru you say? LO Zen Headbutt yea
Gligar you say? LO Ice Punch yo
Bronzor you say? LO Hi Jump Kick man
No survivability you say? Evo stone + Drain Punch bro
Revenge it you say? Fake Out + Bullet Punch playa

I'm just using a moveset of "Fighting move / coverage move / [priority move / coverage move] / [fake out / coverage move] @ LO / Evo stone" and not a single Pokemon can beat it!

tl;dr you can't just use an absurdly ambiguous term to disguise the fact that you are trying to give your Zuruggu 6 moves.


It's not like gligar is that hard to counter if you run ZHB, and what gligar would switch into a Zuruggu that's setting up a DD?? And the fact that Zuruggu can bypass its counters by simply changing its moveset is why I think it's broken. It's the same reason I think Meditite is broken; by running one extra move (Tpunch), it can defeat its main counter (slowpoke). Or murkrow beats its counters by running hp ice/sub (gligar/slowpoke), even while still running the offensive set. A team shouldn't be required to run Dokkora, Gligar, and Slowpoke just to be able to switch into Murkrow and Zuruggu's sets, and then sac their wall because they weren't running the moveset you thought it was.
Changing a moveset to bypass counters is how this game works and basically every single Pokemon can do it. I can run HP Fire Carvanha to beat Tesshiido. I can run HP Flying on Kyogre to beat Ludicolo. Every mon has a way to beat it's counters, but the question becomes this: is it worth it? No. It never is. It's a gimmick. Of course you could run ThunderPunch Meditite to beat Slowpoke, but then you're not as useful as a wall breaker (if you lose ZHB) or revenge killer (if you lose Fake Out / Bullet Punch). Of course, as well, you could run Sub/HP Ice Krow, but then you can't do shit against any Rock-types, Steel-types, or anything you usually would.

This reminds me of when people were yelling about Pokemon in UU because with a different moveset they could wall Pokemon X and with another one they could wall Y but the point is that they can't do it at the same time and thus a Pokemon as a single entity can not be broken.
 
Changing a moveset to bypass counters is how this game works and basically every single Pokemon can do it. I can run HP Fire Carvanha to beat Tesshiido. I can run HP Flying on Kyogre to beat Ludicolo. Every mon has a way to beat it's counters, but the question becomes this: is it worth it? No. It never is. It's a gimmick. Of course you could run ThunderPunch Meditite to beat Slowpoke, but then you're not as useful as a wall breaker (if you lose ZHB) or revenge killer (if you lose Fake Out / Bullet Punch). Of course, as well, you could run Sub/HP Ice Krow, but then you can't do shit against any Rock-types, Steel-types, or anything you usually would.
Isn't the difference with Zuruggu that it can run a move to beat counters without compromising the effectiveness of its set?

This reminds me of when people were yelling about Pokemon in UU because with a different moveset they could wall Pokemon X and with another one they could wall Y but the point is that they can't do it at the same time and thus a Pokemon as a single entity can not be broken.
To determine Zuruggu's brokeness or lack of it, you have to look at the pokemon as a whole. Not knowing what move coverage move Zuruggu is running is potentially game-ruining to an opponent, and it can cost you a pokemon just because you have no idea if it has the move to kill you with.

On another note, Zuruggu does decently with just DD/Crunch/Drain Punch/ZHB.

Dokkora: If you think this thing isn't threatening then you need to reevaluate more than just your position in this discussion. It can come in and set up Bulk Up, and similar to Zuruggu, its counters can be weakened and easily passed by a +1 Drain Punch / Payback. Gligar can barely beat it if it gets a bit of a head start.

ZHB switch kill

Kojofuu: Scarf Fighting types, ok, but when they have U-turn the Ghost Subs argument is somewhat moot. "Pair it with a Pursuiter".

ZHB switch kill

Monmen: After Zuruggu DDs and you let this get a sub on you and you will regret ever using Zuruggu. It's incredibly hard to stop without a dedicated U-turner specifically for Monmen, and obviously Spikes are going to come into play. Either way, it's threatening and shuts Zuruggu the fuck down.

Attacking move switch kill. And anyway, Monmen doesn't kill Zuruggu, only force it out, so it can come back later, which gives it the chance to maim Monmen again with another attacking move.

Croagunk: Gligar you say.....switch Gligar into an Ice Punch and then what. Gligar can't Roost and set up while at 0 HP.

ZHB switch kill

Has anyone ever thought of using basic Roar users or simply just physically defensive mons?

Hippopotas eats Zuruggu, Roars, spreads entry hazards, Toxics, etc.

But does not kill it. SR or Toxic, risk getting killed (also Shed Skin). Roar lets it toss out a free hit before it goes, and it can come back later to do it again. +1 236 Adamant Crunch does 38.5% - 50%, which is hardly a glancing blow
Also, although you didn't list it, mentioning Zuruggu can kill Gligar at full health without Ice Punch, which isn't hard to maintain with Drain Punch and Evo-stone.

Although it's maimed and revenge killed by any priority move that isn't Dark or Ghost.

Zuruggu switches in, DDs while Gligar switches in.

236 hp Evo-stone Gligar, the standard, either EQs for 33.3% - 47.6% on 36 hp Evo-stone Zuruggu, or Swords Dances, while Zuruggu DDs again.

With 36 hp and Evo-stone on Zuruggu, +2 EQ does 76.2% - 90.5%, while 236 attack Adamant Crunch does 46.2% - 57.7%, which is 12 hp minimum, a 2HKO with SR. Gliggy leaves a minimum of four hp to spare, which is enough for SR, especially with a SR resist.

Flying-types are maimed by Crunch and SR, except for Murkrow.

Murkrow only gets bothered by SR. LO Krow is KOed with +1 236 Adamant Drain Punch after it.

CM Monokrow can't touch it, while it DDs to +6 and Drain Punches for a crit.

...but Feather/Sub/Roost/Drill Peck Krow does win, but... unboosted Drill Peck doesn't KO, and once you realize it's not CM, switch in a special attacker that resists Flying and beat it.

So yeah. Whaddaya know, ZHB is cooler.
 
I've seen some weird Evolution Stone Meditite with Drain Punch, Ice Punch, Zen Headbutt, and Bullet Punch be quite effective.
Just wanted to comment and say that I use that set on Meditite and it's really good.

The only big thing I've really seen to ban is Drought. Chlorophyll is fine, if you want to actually take the turn to use Sunny Day to try and sweep with Bellsprout, that's fine, but it's just silly with Drought.

Murkrow should maybe be looked at a little closer.. I think it's really good, but I don't know if it's needed to be banned, but it's definitely the biggest suspect after Drought.

Evolution Stone is fine, it keeps the metagame in check like many people have said. With Evo Stone, stuff like Meditite is fine to keep, without it, a bunch of shit will have to be banned.

Meditite is fine as well, again, really good but not uber for sure. It beats a lot of things, but gets checked by a lot of things too.
 
Isn't the difference with Zuruggu that it can run a move to beat counters without compromising the effectiveness of its set?
It does compromise it, as you later prove to us further in your post.

Darkamber8828 said:
To determine Zuruggu's brokeness or lack of it, you have to look at the pokemon as a whole. Not knowing what move coverage move Zuruggu is running is potentially game-ruining to an opponent, and it can cost you a pokemon just because you have no idea if it has the move to kill you with.
You have to look at the Pokemon as a whole, correct. And as a whole, Zuruggu CAN ONLY USE FOUR MOVES.

Darkamber8828 said:
On another note, Zuruggu does decently with just DD/Crunch/Drain Punch/ZHB.
As was mentioned, this was for the Ice Punch Zuruggu. Now without Ice Punch you're fucked by Gligar (I'll explain very carefully how this works later...) and can't KO Monmen on the switch. These are just the immediate factors. What about the fact that you're now throwing out a pathetically weak 80 BP 90 Acc unSTABed Psychic-typed attack. That's just BEGGING to give your opponent a free chance to do whatever it is that they want.


Darkamber8828 said:
Also, although you didn't list it, mentioning Zuruggu can kill Gligar at full health without Ice Punch, which isn't hard to maintain with Drain Punch and Evo-stone.

Zuruggu switches in, DDs while Gligar switches in.

236 hp Evo-stone Gligar, the standard, either EQs for 33.3% - 47.6% on 36 hp Evo-stone Zuruggu, or Swords Dances, while Zuruggu DDs again.

With 36 hp and Evo-stone on Zuruggu, +2 EQ does 76.2% - 90.5%, while 236 attack Adamant Crunch does 46.2% - 57.7%, which is 12 hp minimum, a 2HKO with SR. Gliggy leaves a minimum of four hp to spare, which is enough for SR, especially with a SR resist.
Well first and foremost, if you're DDing on the switch then the fighting-type counters that you're not ZHBing on the switch are still in fact counters. However, even if you DD on the switch against Gligar.

I use 156 Atk / 76 Def / 236 Spe Jolly SD Gligar @ Evo Stone - some people fore go the Defense investment and put the last point in HP or Attack. Doesn't matter for this.

You DD, I switch Gligar in. After applying SR:
You are at 20 HP or less (switched into something...) while I am at 21 HP.

You Crunch, does 7 - 10. I Swords Dance.
You Crunch, does 7 - 10 (20 max), I Aerial Ace and do 20-26.

This, my friend, makes Gligar an 100% counter to Ice Punch-less Zuruggu.

Dealing with a +2 Gligar isn't easy, now that you've gotten yourself into this hole...
Darkamber8828 said:
Flying-types are maimed by Crunch and SR, except for Murkrow.
Ok. Zuruggu is also maimed by moves and entry hazards...
Darkamber8828 said:
Murkrow only gets bothered by SR. LO Krow is KOed with +1 236 Adamant Drain Punch after it.
too bad Zuruggu doesn't use Adamant 236 Atk. Unless you want to bring your 6 moveslot logic into the EV department in which you now have more than 510 EVs.
Darkamber8828 said:
CM Monokrow can't touch it, while it DDs to +6 and Drain Punches for a crit.
You're going to DD vs a FeatherDancer....?

Please think your argument through before blindly following it into, well, this.
 

Crux

Banned deucer.
I still fail to see how Drought is broken. The playstyle has multiple hard counters, all of whom (barring Psyduck) are very good regardless of Drought. Even if you choose not to run said counters, it is still very easy to play around because, let's face it, its sweepers are not THAT good. If you're stupid enough to let them set up, then you deserve to lose.

In terms of it being overcentralizing, very few teams are actually running Drought at the moment from what I have seen, and recently I have been laddering quite avidly. Overcentralizing is just a word guys, it isnt the be all and end all of arguments. Unless anyone can back their statements up with actual arguments my view isn't going to change. To everyone who is claiming that Drought is actually broken, I would like to know why you do. If you can come up with a legitimate answer, please enlighten us all...
 
Heysup. I still don't see why you switch your gligar into a Zuruggu using DD.
I'm not.

I'm saying Gligar is a counter if you don't use Ice Punch. So use Ice Punch. Use it as your fourth move slot instead of Zen Headbutt to try and make your counter list "appear" smaller.

I'm mostly proving that using Zen Headbutt in your fourth slot has a steep opportunity cost.

Which, in turn, keeps the counter list quite impressive and threatening.
 
If Zurrugu runs Ice Punch, it beats Gligar. If it runs Zen Headbutt, it beats Croagunk. It doesn't matter that it can't run both, because if you rely on Gligar to beat Zurrugu you will lose to it every time you come across one that runs Ice Punch. Not only that, but you can't safely switch in Gligar knowing that it may be carrying Ice Punch, and the only way to find out if it is or not is to see if it switches out or if it OHKOs you. It's not like Meditite who would have to run like 6 or 7 moves to beat all it's counters, it only has to change one move, and it can sweep right through things that would normally be a hard counter. So unless you run two counters for Zurrugu, one for each of it's sets (that only differ by one move!), you will be in deep shit whenever one shows up that has the move to beat the counter you are running. No safe switch-ins is usually fine, but being forced to run 2 Pokemon just to beat one Pokemon that is running essentially the same set is not, imo.
 

Ice-eyes

Simper Fi
Wait you might have to have more than 1 check to a prominent pokemon? Not in Little Cup, surely! Everything has always had 5+ counters in LC!

Zuruggu is countered / checked by:
Meditite
Monmen
Croagunk
Dokkora

Gligar
Murkrow

Most faster Scarfers.

(Ice Punch) (ZHB)
 

Moo

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I still fail to see how Drought is broken. The playstyle has multiple hard counters, all of whom (barring Psyduck) are very good regardless of Drought. Even if you choose not to run said counters, it is still very easy to play around because, let's face it, its sweepers are not THAT good. If you're stupid enough to let them set up, then you deserve to lose.

In terms of it being overcentralizing, very few teams are actually running Drought at the moment from what I have seen, and recently I have been laddering quite avidly. Overcentralizing is just a word guys, it isnt the be all and end all of arguments. Unless anyone can back their statements up with actual arguments my view isn't going to change. To everyone who is claiming that Drought is actually broken, I would like to know why you do. If you can come up with a legitimate answer, please enlighten us all...
People learned to counter it. I was pretty surprised that peoples opinions on sun changed so drastically, and so quickly. But that's what testing rounds are about I suppose, finding out what's good and what's not.
 

Nails

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Nanoswine summed up my thoughts perfectly.

Ice, you're assuming it dd's on the switch. It has the ability to beat monmen by attacking. Evo stone meditite has been shown to be outclassed by life orb meditite at basically everything except countering Zuruggu. And for every faster scarfer you name that can beat it I can name two or 3 that it beats, if not sets up on.
 
If Zurrugu runs Ice Punch, it beats Gligar. If it runs Zen Headbutt, it beats Croagunk. It doesn't matter that it can't run both, because if you rely on Gligar to beat Zurrugu you will lose to it every time you come across one that runs Ice Punch. Not only that, but you can't safely switch in Gligar knowing that it may be carrying Ice Punch, and the only way to find out if it is or not is to see if it switches out or if it OHKOs you.
The biggest difference here is that you're actually fine assuming it runs Ice Punch since Zen Headbutt is so terrible. Here's an example:

Zuruggu comes in and it either DD's or uses ZHB and I switch in Dokkora. If it uses ZHB then Dokkora has a small chance of being 2HKOed as it only does 10 - 12 vs 14 Defense 24 HP Evo Stone. The thing is after that, I can just switch out to Gligar and now you're fucked because a nearly full HP Gligar is against you and your pathetic Zen Headbutt without any way of beating it, and good luck vs a +2 Gligar. There's also the chance where Dokkora survives anyway, and hits Zuruggu in the face with a nice Drain Punch -> Mach Punch combo.

So, worst case Scenario, you have a nearly full HP Gligar and a half HP Dokkora.

tl;dr Zen Headbutt is terrible and doesn't actually reliably take out your counters even if you have perfect prediction. Unless you're a fan of the infamous high risk: low reward strategy...

Nanoswine said:
It's not like Meditite who would have to run like 6 or 7 moves to beat all it's counters, it only has to change one move, and it can sweep right through things that would normally be a hard counter. So unless you run two counters for Zurrugu, one for each of it's sets (that only differ by one move!), you will be in deep shit whenever one shows up that has the move to beat the counter you are running. No safe switch-ins is usually fine, but being forced to run 2 Pokemon just to beat one Pokemon that is running essentially the same set is not, imo.
Even if it was true that you needed to run two Pokemon to cover both movetypes:

In fact it's not even like checking Pokemon with a certain Hidden Power. For example, (in DPOU) Heatran can run HP Electric to beat Gyarados, since with HP Electric it loses the ability to beat Swampert. That's actually a better trade since your going counter for counter where as Zuruggu is going counter for "maybe 25% of weakening a counter".

You can trade counters all you want but as long as it doesn't lower its effectiveness to do so.
 

Moo

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If Zurrugu runs Ice Punch, it beats Gligar. If it runs Zen Headbutt, it beats Croagunk. It doesn't matter that it can't run both, because if you rely on Gligar to beat Zurrugu you will lose to it every time you come across one that runs Ice Punch. Not only that, but you can't safely switch in Gligar knowing that it may be carrying Ice Punch, and the only way to find out if it is or not is to see if it switches out or if it OHKOs you. It's not like Meditite who would have to run like 6 or 7 moves to beat all it's counters, it only has to change one move, and it can sweep right through things that would normally be a hard counter. So unless you run two counters for Zurrugu, one for each of it's sets (that only differ by one move!), you will be in deep shit whenever one shows up that has the move to beat the counter you are running. No safe switch-ins is usually fine, but being forced to run 2 Pokemon just to beat one Pokemon that is running essentially the same set is not, imo.
Calm Mind Murkrow beats every Zurrugu with Priority FeatherDance. If you're so worried about beating every different type of Zuguru then just run CM Murkrow.

Also with Gligar / Dokkora, there's always the option of running a Yache berry or a Payapa berry if you're that hellbent on beating it with one poke. The two are awesome pokes and the only reason someone would run both of them is not just to check Zurrugu.
 

Ice-eyes

Simper Fi
Actually FeatherDance Krow just gets frozen eventually since it can't really do anything to Zuruggu (unless you're smart and run HP Flying).
 

Moo

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Actually FeatherDance Krow just gets frozen eventually since it can't really do anything to Zuruggu (unless you're smart and run HP Flying).
Well, I run HP flying so that's never been a problem for me xD
Anyway, you can just put it's attack down by four stages, then anything can shit on it.
 

kokoloko

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After playing a couple matches on the Smogon server, and comparing it to my laddering experience on the main server (where Vulpix is banned), I'm convinced Drought is unhealthy for the metagame. Yes, it has hard counters, like RestTalk Lickitung and Swablu, but they're overspecialized and have very limited use outside of stopping sun. The metagame without Vulpix is far more enjoyable and diverse, as you aren't as restricted when it comes to teambuilding. That's my two cents when it comes to Drought...

Now, on to Murkrow... it really reminds me a lot of Gen 4 OU Salamence... but vastly more diverse and threatening. It can effectively run a mixed offensive set with 19 Speed 18 Attack, 16 Special Attack and enough coverage to 2HKO everything in the metagame. The few pokemon able to take its physical moves, such as Gligar and Bronzor, get raped by Special moves like Hidden Power Ice and Heat Wave. A lot of people seem to think that the introduction on Evolution Stone has increased the defensive capabilities of LC pokemon enough to take Murkrow's attacks, and while that's true to an extent, its not quite enough. As if that wasn't bad enough, with access to Evolution Stone, and Mischievous Heart, Roost, Calm Mind and FeatherDance, even Murkrow's shitty defenses become stupidly hard to break through as it sets up to +6. To make matters even worse, the pokemon that can beat one set, always lose to the other, making switching into Murkrow safely virtually impossible. I haven't had the opportunity of playing in a Murkrow-less metagame, but I'm quite certain it would be a much better one.
 

Engineer Pikachu

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After playing a couple matches on the Smogon server, and comparing it to my laddering experience on the main server (where Vulpix is banned), I'm convinced Drought is unhealthy for the metagame. Yes, it has hard counters, like RestTalk Lickitung and Swablu, but they're overspecialized and have very limited use outside of stopping sun. The metagame without Vulpix is far more enjoyable and diverse, as you aren't as restricted when it comes to teambuilding. That's my two cents when it comes to Drought...
I haven't actually seen too much Drought on Smogon. Full-on Sun teams are stopped by Snover / Hippopotas, and less extreme Sun teams can be countered more easily. However, it does seem overcentralizing to be forced to pack one of the two aforementioned pokemon in order to prevent yourself from being swept.
Now, on to Murkrow... it really reminds me a lot of Gen 4 OU Salamence... but vastly more diverse and threatening. It can effectively run a mixed offensive set with 19 Speed 18 Attack, 16 Special Attack and enough coverage to 2HKO everything in the metagame. The few pokemon able to take its physical moves, such as Gligar and Bronzor, get raped by Special moves like Hidden Power Ice and Heat Wave. A lot of people seem to think that the introduction on Evolution Stone has increased the defensive capabilities of LC pokemon enough to take Murkrow's attacks, and while that's true to an extent, its not quite enough. As if that wasn't bad enough, with access to Evolution Stone, and Mischievous Heart, Roost, Calm Mind and FeatherDance, even Murkrow's shitty defenses become stupidly hard to break through as it sets up to +6. To make matters even worse, the pokemon that can beat one set, always lose to the other, making switching into Murkrow safely virtually impossible. I haven't had the opportunity of playing in a Murkrow-less metagame, but I'm quite certain it would be a much better one.
This. In my experience, LO Krow has been able to 2HKO Gligar without Stealth Rock, which is quite impressive, considering the fact that no Gligar runs an item other than Evolution Stone these days; it does 52-60% from my experience.

A simple mixed set destroys stall, and is even deadlier if you use Roost when you predict a Protect to scout / rack up weather damage. However, like koko said, the main trouble with Krow is that there are too many sets it can run. The FeatherDance set is oddly effective, and you are forced to carry at least one of two pokemon (Gligar / Komatana) to avoid getting swept by it, which counts as overcentralizing. The worst thing about this, however, is that those two Pokemon are beaten by Brave Bird and Heat Wave, respectively, which means that your "Murkrow counter" can never be guaranteed to be an actual counter.

The mixed set rips everything apart. As stated before, Gligar and Komatana are beaten, and threats like Zuruggu and Dokkora are also beaten. Even "walls" fall to Murkrow. Tesshiido is killed by Heat Wave, and a weakened Pururiru is killed by Sucker Punch / Dark Pulse.

The funniest thing about Murkrow, however, is that the best counter to Murkrow is your own Murkrow, with the exception of ones that have Brave Bird. And this is just the mixed set.
 
After playing a couple matches on the Smogon server, and comparing it to my laddering experience on the main server (where Vulpix is banned), I'm convinced Drought is unhealthy for the metagame. Yes, it has hard counters, like RestTalk Lickitung and Swablu, but they're overspecialized and have very limited use outside of stopping sun. The metagame without Vulpix is far more enjoyable and diverse, as you aren't as restricted when it comes to teambuilding. That's my two cents when it comes to Drought...
Most of the top teams actually don't prepare much for Sun. The fact that there are so many built-in counters with Evolution Stone kind of makes Drought merely "decent".

Like, Dokkora rapes Bellsprout with Payback and he's far from a Sun team counter. Gligar takes a Solar Beam without any defensive EVs, OHKOes Bellsprout. Pururiru can even survive SolarBeams and KO back.

Evolution Stone hard counters hyper offense.


Now, on to Murkrow... it really reminds me a lot of Gen 4 OU Salamence... but vastly more diverse and threatening. It can effectively run a mixed offensive set with 19 Speed 18 Attack, 16 Special Attack and enough coverage to 2HKO everything in the metagame. The few pokemon able to take its physical moves, such as Gligar and Bronzor, get raped by Special moves like Hidden Power Ice and Heat Wave. A lot of people seem to think that the introduction on Evolution Stone has increased the defensive capabilities of LC pokemon enough to take Murkrow's attacks, and while that's true to an extent, its not quite enough. As if that wasn't bad enough, with access to Evolution Stone, and Mischievous Heart, Roost, Calm Mind and FeatherDance, even Murkrow's shitty defenses become stupidly hard to break through as it sets up to +6. To make matters even worse, the pokemon that can beat one set, always lose to the other, making switching into Murkrow safely virtually impossible. I haven't had the opportunity of playing in a Murkrow-less metagame, but I'm quite certain it would be a much better one.
Brave Bird / Sucker Punch / Hidden Power Ice / Heat Wave, and you have a point. However this means you're going to have to come in on the revenge kill, take 25%, and do another significant amount of damage to yourself with Brave Bird, which doesn't let you 2HKO the whole metagame.

The thing here, that is different from Gen 4 OU Mence and Gen 4 UU Honchkrow is that you can't just spam one move and 2HKO everything. Mence's Draco Meteor and Honchkrow's Brave Bird did SO much damage that nothing could even switch in. Honchkrow's only Brave Bird switch ins were all slower and consequently died to HP Grass or Superpower. There was no prediction involved. Murkrow on the other hand needs to use HP Ice / Heat Wave on the switch to KO Pokemon like Hippopotas and Magnemite. If you start throwing those moves around, you'll need to beware of the obvious threats like Pururiru who can come in, burn you, and heal off your Brave Bird damage. Honchkrow could suicide to take out 1-2 walls, but Murkrow will often die before it does that completely.
 
My thoughts on this debate

Drought is terrible for the metagame because of everything kokoloko said. It's powerful, too hard to counter, and the metagame is more enjoyable and diverse without it. Those of you who said that Hippopotas and Snover counter sun, have you realized that pretty much every pokemon on a sun team carries either a grass or fire move? The sun also makes Growth more dangerous, as it gives the opponenet a swords dance and nasty plot in one turn. Combined with chlorophyl, your opponent is running around with +2 Atk, +2 SAtk, and +2 Spe (and possibly +1 Def and +1 SDef from an evo stone). If you think about it, with an evo stone, sun sweepers can get +1 in every stat and an additional +1 in all of the sweeping stats. Most of these pokemon are resistant to fighting priority, so Dokkora and Croagunk aren't going to work here. The fact is, Sun teams can eliminate their counters easily, can set up easily to blow through evo stone pokemon, are too fast to be killed, and really aren't hit hard by priority. Drought cannot stay in this metagame.

As for Murkrow, 4th Gen OU Salamence is not a great comparison. There are many differences that make Murkrow more broken. Salamence could run several different sets, but for the most part, they were pretty much the same thing. Mixmence, DDance Mence, Scarf Mence, Bulky DDance Mence, they all have their differences, but they aren't as different as sets like CMKrow, LO Krow, MHeart Krow, Bulky Krow, Special Krow, Physical Krow, etc. Murkrow is too unpredictable, and counters to one set die to another set. It's just too unpredictable set, and each set is just soo good. Another difference from Salamence is that it doesn't have an easily exploitable weakness. Salamence could be revenge killed by any fast, scarfed mon with an ice move or anything with Ice Shard. Murkrow doesn't have any x4 weaknesses, so it's not so easy. Murkrow could also have an evo stone or a berry, making it even harder to kill, which Salamence can't really have. In addition, Murkrow can have priority non-attacking moves. That means priority recovery, priority set up, priority subs, priority featherdances. Salamence may have great attacking types, but Murkrow has its own base 120 power move and it isn't locked into anything. Furthermore, Salamence does not have a STAB base 80 power priority move. Murkrow does. So Salamence can't even describe how broken Murkrow is. Murkrow must be banned now.

This has been largely overlooked, but DeepSeaTooth is broken. It was broken last gen, and with Shell Smash is even more broken this gen. After one Shell Break, Clamperl gets +2 Atk, +4 SAtk, and +2 Spe. Yikes. Clamperl reaches a max of 26 speed after a shell smash, which speed ties pokemon like Scarf Magby (who isn't going to want to lose that speed tie. Pretty much everything is OHKO'd by Clamperl, who gets great coverage with Surf, Ice Beam, and either HP Electric or Grass. I know it's not terribly common, but when people start using it, it'll become much scarier.

Zuruggu really isn't that big of a deal. It doesn't really matter weather or not it is running ZHB over Ice Punch. Dokkora and Croagunk have access to priority, so they can kill it before it can touch them. Any other pokemon can just run a scarf. Most scarfed pokemon can outrun Zuruggu and kill it easily. In fact, any scarfed flying mon can kill it easily (Zubat and Gligar work wonders). Scarfed fighting types also kill it with ease. Machop, Mankey, and Mienshao can kill it really easily, and those guys are everywhere. In addition, it doesn't even have to be a STAB move. As long as you have a scarfed revenge killer, you can kill Zuruggu with ease. There are several pokemon that can just stop Zuruggu as well. Monmen can encore its DDances or paralyze it, Wynaut can counter it or make it set up, and Evo Stone Meditite can check it. Murkrow (if not banned) can use priority featherdance. And guess what? Pokemon like Tesshiido are HJK magnets, right? Here's a secret: Protect. If you use protect, you can scout, possibly hurt Zuruggu, and it works great with Leech Seed on other sets as well. Or, if protect isn't your type of thing, predict a HJK and switch to a ghost type for major damage. Zuruggu really isn't that hard to stop, you just need to use your head and be prepared for it.

Meditite is powerful, but I think it can stay in the metagame. Meditite can't raise its speed like Zuruggu, so it's really not hard to revenge kill it. Most scarfed (or non-scarfed) flying or ghost types can OHKO it without any difficulty. Meditite can pack a punch, but it's not ubeatable. Slowpoke walls it pretty hard, and to be honest, since most Meditite rely on Fake Out, Bullet Punch, ZHB, and HJK for coverage, most psychic types can survive its attacks. Now, dont' always send out Psychic types, because many can run Ice Punch to take care of Gligar (which is stupid, because Gligar outspeeds and OHKO's). Meditite is just too frail, too slow, and can't really do anything to fix it. It's too vulnerable to other strong, fast pokemon.

EDIT: Okay, I didn't mean to nominate anyone, I was just putting in my 2 cents on the debates. Editted to make it look like less of a nomination.
 

Moo

Professor
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Things we are going to stop doing: Bolding Pokemon names, trying to nominate Pokemon. Nominations are NOT open right now. Do NOT try to nominate anything right now. Thanks.
^^
Uh, yeah.....
You can't make noms yet. It's a discussion about what is and what isnt broken for now. Also sun isn't that broken. Snover Lickitung Swablu Hippopototas and Murkrow can counter it.
 
Sry, didn't really mean to nominate them, editted it to be more of a discussion. And read the post on sun. Snover is handled by the HP fire that pretty much every sun sweeper has, and vulpix can switch in on it with ease and kill it. You can take the sun off the field briefly, but it'll just come back after it kills your sun counter, and then what? And Hippopotas is going to die to any of the STAB grass moves carried by sun sweepers like Bellsprout. Is it really a good idea to switch your hippopotas into a +2 Bellsprout? And then after Hippopotas is gone, Vulpix is just going to come back in again. Murkrow can sort of counter it, but not completely. Murkrow can still fall to some of the more powerful sun sweepers. And there's a good chance that Murkrow will be gone, so then that's just one less sun counter. And really, Swablu isn't great outside of countering sun. If the sun sweepers have built up enough boosts with Growth, Lickitung and Swablu can still be blasted away. And even if they don't have enough boosts, it's not too hard to slap on a fighting type onto a sun team to take care of Lickitung and Swablu.
 

Nails

Double Threat
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Stuff like meditite and krow actually make great sun checks. Meditite for example 2hkoes bellsprout with fake out + bullet punch, which is a really easy way for offense to check sun. Honestly, that's generally how I beat sun teams, is switch tite in and kill something and counter their answer to tite.

However, as once tite and krow get banned, sun loses 2 checks that are pretty easy to fit into a standard offensive team, which basically leaves stuff like swablu and lickitung and snover for reliable checks. I could definitely see sun being overpowered then.
 
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