np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Tassa]

I wouldn't say it's a good new to don't have the suspect of weather, but well. :/

I think that, although it can 2HKO most of the meta, a lot of those things are 2HKOs and not OHKOs

It starts to be fun when you BP a NP. Not always easy to do, but hell when you can do it...

Two ladders is going to take time, but well.
EDIT : I agree with the one who suggest for an easier laddering to wait, because it is actually not the best moment, though it's easy to be on the top of the ladder there are just not opponent who laddered already and have a good rating.
EDIT2 : To Pdizzle, Blissey is not exactly stopping it, 2 FB kill it with rocks and so it cannot switch in easily. Same for Rotom, but rocks are unnecessary. Rotom can threaten more, though. Starmie is a shacky check, easily OHKOed, which struggle against both RP and U-Turn, Jellicent cannot switch into EP. After it depends of the set, Lati@s and Bi being destroyed by the U-Turn, while being effective counter to the RP (for Latios, a one-time counter seeing that after 2 HP or HP+FB+rocks, it is KOed, for Latias it needs to have roost/recover). Keldeo is more a check than a counter, though it can play the one-time counter too. Gengar and Gyarados are effective, especially Gyarados though SR blablablabla.

 

[Okiesmokie]

I don't think keldeo is broken, too many things wall it. if it has hp electric it has a slim chance of getting past tentacruel and jellicent depending on the variant, but it's stopped by celebi, dragonite, special defensive jirachi and probably others that I can think of. if it has hp bug it can beat out celebi but its losing to all it's other counters. same goes for hp ice, it can get past celebi and dragonite now but tentacruel, jellicent and even vaporeon have it walled.

that said im too lazy, too terrible and too busy doing other things to ladder for this vote

I don't think Keldeo can get past Specially Defensive Celebi with HP Ice.

252 SpA Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 112-132 (27.72 - 32.67%) -- possible 4HKO
252 SpA Expert Belt Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 134-158 (33.16 - 39.1%) -- 10.45% chance to 3HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Ice vs. 252 HP / 236+ SpD Celebi: 168-198 (41.58 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

 

[Lady Alex]

With HP Bug, yes, Keldeo can get past Celebi.

Anyway, imo Landorus-I is overpowered in a way similar to how Tornadus-T was overpowered. Speaking solely for Lando's U-turn set (which imo is its best, with sub being 2nd), it's able to easily get past Celebi and Latias, who are the two most common of its amazingly low number of safe switch-ins. Similarly to how Dugtrio was used to trap Jirachi for Tornadus-T, Tyranitar does the same to Latias (Celebi always carries baton pass nowadays, but it gets crapped on by u-turn anyway) for Landorus. I'm curious what people who support it being in OU think about Landorus's presence in the metagame aside from simply "it has checks and counters and is easily revenge killed by ice shard."

 

[Soul Fly]

Landorus has been a favorite with me since BW1, so this is going to be a hard call. Will post opinions if I somehow manage to get reqs for both separate ladders. Even I would have liked it better if we'd have tested Keldeo first though. Thanks to Torn-t it managed to sneak past the last suspect.

 

[Silverfox117]

To tell you the truth. The way the metagame is now is the most consistent it has been in a long time. Keldeo has many checks and counters to it. All switching in easily and its paper thin defenses mean it cant switch in as well, as it would like.


Landorus-I, however, can be a problem, but I only see it sweeping easily in lower ranks. Heres the thing with u-turn set. It can't recover easily from hazards, almost relying on wish support. It also loses it sweeping potential. With rockpolish it becomes easily walled, but is one of the best late game sweepers. The thing is even with rockpolish it gets wrecked from ice shard still. Still the rockpolish set is very scary. I get the same feeling that I get when i see breloom on the other team. I will just have to play my cards right. Luckily for me I have played long enough in which I can handle both threats easily. I totally bragged there didn't I. God I am such an idiot.

In my opinion, I like the metagame now. It should stay the way it is. Wait lets talk about Black Kyruem (totally misspelled that).

 

[Lady Alex]

It's even less susceptible to hazards than scizor, and has an offensive presence that's debatably quite superior.

 

[Hydro Pimp]

Just to expand on the pokemon you mentioned;

Assuming: Timid Life Orb Landorus-I w/ 252 Special Attack

Focus Blast v. 4 HP /252 Sp Def Bold Blissey: 36.34 - 43.09%
Focus Blast v. 4HP / 252 Sp Def Bold Chansey: 32.39 - 38.47%
Focus Blast v. 232 HP/ 0 Sp Def Modest Rotom-W: 63.87 - 75.58%
Earth Power v. 4 HP/ 0 Sp Def Timid Keldeo: 102.77 - 121.29%

That Keldeo calc is wrong. Timid Life Orb Earth Power does 77.16-90.74% to 4HP Keldeo. Which is still a lot of damage, but a bit of prior/residual damage is needed to get the KO there.

 

[Neliel]

well i think the metagame was used to those threats, or maybe its just me over preparing to keldeo and landorus in the teambuilding so i dont find them that broken... anyway sets like hp bug keldeo or phisical landorus exists so its better to ban them all. anyway i doubt this will balance the metamage more, there are still a pletora of excellent things that are waiting keldeo and landorus to be banned to take their place as "best swepers", but as i said just ban the more we can to make this mg less shitty.

 

[ginganinja]

I should point out that I am watching this test with great interest. Landorus-I (and Keldeo but ill stick to Landorus-I for this thread), are perhaps some of the most dangerous pokemon in OU now, and are exceptionally difficult to switch into. My opinions might change later on in this thread (since atm im 50/50) but for now here are my thoughts.

Firstly, I hate the metagame right now. I know I am not the only person who hates this, but I needed to get that out. More relevant is the fact that I hate what Keldeo and Landorus-I end up doing to the metagame. For instance, to check both, I feel like I need to use Latias / Celebi and still face that fact that ill prolly lose games when I run into a U-Turn Landorus / Thundurus-T / HP Bug Keldeo because thats the way it works. Sure, there are other options to deal with these mons, but its just fact that I feel needlessly constrained in my teambuilding, and thats really fucking annoying.

Set against this, I don't really find Landorus-I broken in a power sense. Alone, it has its checks and counters, and while its powerful, if im honest I find it hard to declare it "OP" in that its not typically something that is obviously too strong for OU (unlike something like Tornadus-T for instance). I guess If we wanted to get technical, then yes, id be voting to ban it because technically I would currently be considering it "unhealthy for the Metagame" but I always hated those terms so im sorta stuck. Looking forward to seeing some good arguments that might encourage me to change my mind =]

 

[brizz]

Oh well, I don't think Landorus-I should be banned, but let's give a try to this "landorus-free" ladder n_n

 

[Luckstard.]

If we really want to balanced the metagame, we should suspect Breloom and/or Terrakion over Lando and Keldeo...



But, we suspect Lando. I don't see why it is broken, U-Turn Landlos isn't common, or only in HO. I think RP Lando is the best LGS of the BW2 metagame, very dangerous but he need support. If he used U-turn over RP, he is a great wallbreaker, but if 101 BS speed isn't bad at all, it isn't wonderful, he is RK by some Pokémon like Keldeo, Scizor, Terrakion, Mammoswine...

In my opinion, Lando-I isn't broken, he is just powerful.

 

[Last Chance Breaker]

Although I probably won't gain the ability to vote (I have never been that good in any sort of ladder) this will indeed be very interesting. Lando is indeed very strong to face. It's plethora of sets and mix of abilities (I assume that this test includes both forms of Lando) makes it a dangerous threat to any team that doesn't pack real counter, as well as being able to demolish most checks with the correct preparations. However, I never found it to be particularly broken or game changing. Sure, it was annoying to face, and it does have a hard time being countered, but it take little specialized preparation to keep it at bay. or you can throw in mamoswine, that always works. Lando-T also lacks a certain amount of speed, not being abke to outspeed important pokemon but still being to fast for slower TR or stall teams. Hydreigon faced a similar problem.

A test could be indeed helpful, but I am still slightly skeptical about the results.

 

[Terraquaza]

i will try to get reqs and vote for ou jjj

 

[MMII]

It's still too early for me to say much but I'm kinda disappointed with Landorus-I. So far I find the 101 speed really disappointing in a metagame where there are so much things that are faster or have priority. This really dampers it's early game participation for me since the Latios/Gengar/Mamoswine is usually still healthy enough for me to have no reason to Rock Polish. Then again, maybe having a Keldeo on my team is twisting my perspective cause that pony is REALLY doing it's job for me. I'll keep at it but Landorus hasn't been too impressive for me so far.

 

[RotomPoison]

Wow sorry Pocket I was just trying to say we do kind of ban too many things.

I don't see many differences in people's teams between the 2 ladders, and while i'm sure everyone will hate to hear me say this that if these 2 do get banned Blissey/Chansey may make a huge comeback

 

[baddjordan]

Cannot stand this trash metagame. I didn't mind BW1 but BW2 is not enjoyable and lucky to go past 20 turns. Banning Landorus would just tone down offensive pressure which is enough for me to vote ban. Hits too hard, no recoil, levitate, STAB Ground, U-turn. Not going to go in depth but he has too much control and power in his kit.

 

[Leftiez]

Landorus-i is the pokemon the more broken in the current metagame, and I still have not understood why it is not banned, I was so glad to see it finally passes into suspect test, be honest this Pokémon is able to 2HKO Blissey/chansey after rock Stealth with a no. stab attack, seriously? Latios Choice spec is not able to do that, this Pokémon has no counter, and his checks are all whooped by Uturn, it is almost impossible to come upon him correctly, I think and I find that it would be vastly better in über, I've never participated in a suspect test, but I'll force me this time.

 

[JKOP]

Huh this would be my first post at the OU-forums !_!.

I agree to the fact that Landorus is too powerful for OU mainly because it is unpredictable. Without knowing whether it is a physical or special set we are unable to counter it effectively (except for the ice shard and aqua jet) :/. I am pretty sure that laddering for the OU(suspect) would be fun; Landorus-free metagame! ;).

 

[TCTphantom]

I would say Lando is just unhealthy, as it hits too hard. However, I wonder why Lando was suspected first instead of PONY. I mean, PONY is everywhere... But I digress

Lando is just an ugly guy in a cloud. The other ugly guy needs to be OU, at least top 25. The other one is gone. We must kill the ugly so the ugly can rise. I might be drunk.

In all seriousness, Lando is a bitch and should go to ubers, as he 2hkos/Ohksps 90% of the metagame...

 

[Shurtugal]

It's still too early for me to say much but I'm kinda disappointed with Landorus-I. So far I find the 101 speed really disappointing in a metagame where there are so much things that are faster or have priority. This really dampers it's early game participation for me since the Latios/Gengar/Mamoswine is usually still healthy enough for me to have no reason to Rock Polish. Then again, maybe having a Keldeo on my team is twisting my perspective cause that pony is REALLY doing it's job for me. I'll keep at it but Landorus hasn't been too impressive for me so far.

This is how I am feeling right now. Usually I can keep Gengar / Celebi / Mamoswine / Latias healthy enough so that my opponent doesn't just 'click rock polish', and to be frank, I've been finding myself actually happy when Landorus-I u-turns over RP'ing on my Latias because it means everything faster on my team (did someone say Keldeo?) doesn't have to worry about a Rock polish to boot and can just spam its Hydro Pumps and RK it at any time without fear of a comeback.

To be fair; though, I'm an offensive player, and sacking useless Pokemon to force switches or late set up with other Pokes is what I do so I guess I'm not feeling the full blunts of Landorus-I (offensive momenta is a really hard tool to use as something to ID suspects with since even the most broken pokemon can be brought down with it; like TornT, so keep that in mind as I am an offensive player). But I really would not blame Landorus-I for the lack of stall on the ladder, which is what I feel is the only playstyle it hurts (aparat from balanced) unless it has RP, but like I said earlier, its rather easy to keep a RP check healthy enough to where the opponent can't just midsweep whenever they want to.

Really, I need to go at it more. Leaning towards no ban, as it's not nearly as good as is implied in this thread.

 

[saxtonhale]

If both of them get booted to Ubers, I'll be happier than a clam.

 

[flamingfire77]

If you guys have problems with keldeo, use Celebi....

 

[dice]

The problem with Celebi is that Keldeo can lure it with Hidden Power Bug and Landorus can opt for U-turn instead of Rock Polish.

 

[SmashBrosBrawl]

Landorus-i is the pokemon the more broken in the current metagame, and I still have not understood why it is not banned, I was so glad to see it finally passes into suspect test, be honest 1-this Pokémon is able to 2HKO Blissey/chansey after rock Stealth with a no. stab attack, seriously? 2-Latios Choice spec is not able to do that, 3-this Pokémon has no counter, and his checks are all whooped by Uturn, it is almost impossible to come upon him correctly, I think and I find that it would be vastly better in über, I've never participated in a suspect test, but I'll force me this time.

1-252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.93 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

2-252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 388-457 (59.5 - 70.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3-General:

Sheer force:

Sand Force:

 

[Kingler]

If you guys have problems with keldeo, use Celebi....

*Opponent uses keldeo*
Me- Hah! I have a celebi!
Keldeo uses Hidden power bug! It's super effective!
Me-*Throws DS to the other side of the room in anger*