np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

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BurningMan

fueled by beer
The problem with Celebi is that Keldeo can lure it with Hidden Power Bug and Landorus can opt for U-turn instead of Rock Polish.
Not to mention that you can just trap celebi with TTar.

IMO Landorus itself isn't broken and neither is Keldeo however the fact that both can remove their counters so easy by just using a Pursuit trapper pushes them over the edge. So if i find enough time to ladder i will likely vote to ban them.
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
Celebi shouldn't be your only stop to landorus, and it DEFINITELY shouldn't be your only stop to Keldeo. Every team should have 2-3 Water resists, and it just so happens that Celebi takes care of Breloom, Landorus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo and can pass Nasty Plots, set up Rocks, T-wave, or Perish Song, so that's why people use it so often.

EDIT: If Celebi isn't running Baton Pass, you DESERVE to be trapped by Tyranitar. That's the only reason to use it over Latias, imo.
 

MikeDawg

Banned deucer.
Celebi shouldn't be your only stop to landorus, and it DEFINITELY shouldn't be your only stop to Keldeo. Every team should have 2-3 Water resists, and it just so happens that Celebi takes care of Breloom, Landorus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo and can pass Nasty Plots, set up Rocks, T-wave, or Perish Song, so that's why people use it so often.

EDIT: If Celebi isn't running Baton Pass, you DESERVE to be trapped by Tyranitar. That's the only reason to use it over Latias, imo.
So we have to dedicate multiple spots to checking these single pokemon?

Now, of course, these checks have other roles too

But considering 90% of them can be eliminated with pursuit (how many teams run keld+land without ttar?), check stacking not only doesn't work 100% but is also a liability as you are leaving yourself open for a single pokemon to pick apart most of your team
 
Also, @SmashBrosBrawl Cress can't take the Gravity set
252 Atk Life Orb Sand Force Landorus Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Cresselia in sand: 172-203 (38.73 - 45.72%) -- 10.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
0 SpA Cresselia Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Landorus: 260-308 (81.5 - 96.55%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
So we have to dedicate multiple spots to checking these single pokemon?

Now, of course, these checks have other roles too

But considering 90% of them can be eliminated with pursuit (how many teams run keld+land without ttar?), check stacking not only doesn't work 100% but is also a liability as you are leaving yourself open for a single pokemon to pick apart most of your team
Not true at all. Celebi can't be trapped because of Baton Pass, and, like I said, you should always be running Baton Pass on Celebi. Jellicent can speed creep Tyranitar and burn with Will-O-Wisp to make sure he doesn't Pursuit anything. And besides, I use celebi and Latias not just for one threat, but for all the ones I mentioned before. Celebi checks Breloom, Landorus, Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Alakazam without Signal Beam, offensive Latias, Scarf terrakion, and a bunch of others. It's a valuable team member and I don't think it's restrictive at all to have Celebi and another offensive check to these Pokémon on your balanced team.
 

peng

policy goblin
is a Community Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus
This argument has been going on for months and it just goes round in circles. People say Landorus-I has no defensive counters, a pro-OU user brings up Cresselia, Blissey, Latias, Celebi. Every one of those (with the exception of BP Celebi) gets ripped apart by Pursuit Tyranitar, and then everyone just goes on and on about the definition of a "counter". The definition doesn't matter - fact is that you almost have to assume Tyranitar support with Landorus-I, exactly the same as you would assume Dugtrio support with Volcarona.

I'm pretty sure if Jellicent runs enough SDef investment to even have a chance of "beating" Landorus then it can't be quick enough to outspeed CBTar, so its still pretty inefficient.

My problem the current meta is just how efficient the Pursuit + Celebi lure + RP Landorus offensive core is, not necessarily just Landorus as an individual. The one i'm sure we're all aware of is CB Tyranitar / EBelt Keldeo / RP Landorus, but variations can exist with Scizor and basically anything that gets Signal Beam or surprise U-Turns. Its basically unhandleable for even well-built defensive teams. Clearly Pursuit isn't being banned anytime soon, and even if we ban Keldeo it just gets replaced by offensive Signal Beam Rotom-W or something to perform a fairly similar role. The fact that the core can be run in reverse (Pursuit + U-Turn Lando + Scarf Keldeo) just adds fuel to the fire, as its almost impossible to tell which way round the core goes unless you actively avoid switching Celebi into both Landorus and Keldeo for the entire game!

The reason this core exists is because RP Landorus is only reliably beaten by Pokemon that are either a) Pursuit weak or b) relied on so heavily to beat the other top threat (Keldeo) that the game descends into a guessing game of "which has the Bug move?" Ultimately, I think Landorus is the one that applies the ridiculous restraint on teambuilding which drives the effectiveness of this core, even though I don't think Landorus as an individual Pokemon is outright broken. For the health of the game, I'm pro-ban.

Not sure if I'll actually have time to do any laddering but I'm very glad to see this suspect test actually happening, and I'm pretty confident that enough of the community is pro-ban to get rid of this thing!

edit: the argument that Landorus is easy to revenge-kill when it runs U-Turn is kind of moot. Whenever its running U-Turn, its a supporting member for Scarf Keldeo or something similar - its not trying to sweep. Its like saying Choice Band Dragonite is bad because its slow and easy to revenge-kill, when its role is clearly to punch holes in your defensive cores so something else to clean-up.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
It's still too early for me to say much but I'm kinda disappointed with Landorus-I. So far I find the 101 speed really disappointing in a metagame where there are so much things that are faster or have priority. This really dampers it's early game participation for me since the Latios/Gengar/Mamoswine is usually still healthy enough for me to have no reason to Rock Polish. Then again, maybe having a Keldeo on my team is twisting my perspective cause that pony is REALLY doing it's job for me. I'll keep at it but Landorus hasn't been too impressive for me so far.
Echoing this post.
So far while trying to build a team with specific focus on Lando-I, it has really been lackluster.

It's like a Genesect that happens to hit 20% harder with shit defensive typing and a crippling weakness to the two most common offensive types in OU. Ice and Water.
That and the fact that unlike Genesect it doesn't force switches.

You'll almost always have a STAB/SE attack to hit it with and in all honesty, it's a dud before it Rock Polishes.
That and the Fact that Relying on Rock Polish forces it to give up a valuable coverage moveslot.

Yet you MUST use rock polish because base 101 unboosted is pretty crap in this meta without a reliable priority move. He has a pretty bad case of 4MSS since he needs Earth Power/Focus Blast/HP Ice/Psychic AND U-turn to have proper coverage but he only gets to choose 3 out of the 6, (2 actually since STAB is obligatory) and a lack of a certain coverage leaves it vulnerable to VERY COMMON OU pokemon.

And I don't buy the "but U-turn!" argument. Landorus as it is finds limited opportunity to Set up and Unlike Tornadus-T it cannot U-turn out without any drawbacks. It just makes it easier to kill next time around, and I really must say he has very disappointing bulk so he goes down to any neutral move/SE attack.


Yes it is dangerous Lategame when it's counters have been weakened (celebi taking a hammering from U-turn/Pink Blobs on sub 50%) but that is applicable to all lategame sweepers, unless you have shit for defensive synergy it's rarely 6HKOing you (unlike a certain android steel bug)
 
I think Earth power/HP ice/Focus blast/ uturn or rock polish is probably the ideal set. I don't see what you need psychic for. You aren't killing anything more with psychic than you are with HP ice + earth power... HP ice already kills breloom and you have the added benefit of nailing lando-t, defensive chomp, dragonite and the rare gliscor late game. Also earth power gets tenta and toxicroak.
 
Psychic also hits gyarados, which is an excellent counter that i forgot to mention in previous posts. Of course psychic can still miss the 2hko anyway and u-turn/rock polish are better choices.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
Curtains said:
I don't see what you need psychic for. You aren't killing anything more with psychic than you are with HP ice + earth power
Psychic is guarantees an OHKO on Keldeo, lol that's like way more important than gengar and party. Next best is EP which does an average of 80%. Also it's an added boost against sun to ensure Venusaur cannot switch in and force you out at will. HP Ice does a miserable 60% at best.
 

Dark Fallen Angel

FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
I think Earth power/HP ice/Focus blast/ uturn or rock polish is probably the ideal set. I don't see what you need psychic for. You aren't killing anything more with psychic than you are with HP ice + earth power... HP ice already kills breloom and you have the added benefit of nailing lando-t, defensive chomp, dragonite and the rare gliscor late game. Also earth power gets tenta and toxicroak.
Psychic OHKO Gengar, has a huge chance of 2HKOing Gyarados after Stealth Rock, guarantee the OHKO on Keldeo (which can survive an Earth Power at full health - this means 100% health because if Landorus runs a Modest nature it can OHKO Keldeo after Stealth Rock damage with Earth Power). Oh, and it also hits Rotom-W accurately, but Psychic can only 2HKO non-specially defensive versions of Rotom-W; those will still need Focus Blast to be 2HKOed. Lastly, Psychic OHKOes Conkeldurr 100% of time; Earth Power only 2HKOes.

However Landorus really needs Rock Polish to sweep or U-Turn to defeat its usual counters, and cannot spare a moveslot for Psychic; unless that moveslot is HP Ice, but make sure that you really do not have problems with Gliscor, opposing Landorus, and Dragon-types immune to Earth Power, before making this choice. Even so, I would not use anything besides the standard moves, so I do not see much reason to use Psychic at all.

Oh, and I do not know why people are not speaking of Modest Landorus. It has a much higher increased chance of OHKOing and 2HKOing things. For example, it is guaranteed to 2HKO Gengar with HP Ice after Stealth Rock damage, while Timid variants have + or - 15% chance of not doing so and they never 2HKO without Stealth Rock damage. Also, Modest Landorus has 43,75% chance of OHKOing Keldeo with Earth Power after Stealth Rock damage, and 6,25% chance of doing so without, meaning that Keldeo will really need to be at full health if it dreams having a decent chance of checking Landorus, and even then, it has a very small chance of failing in doing so. These feats cannot be achieved with a Timid nature, however.

Modest Landorus hits harder in general and while it has less speed, I think it is very viable over Timid Landorus for the reasons above. It only really misses out outspeeding a few things before a Rock Polish, and can still outspeed everything Timid Landorus can outspeed after a Rock Polish. However, a Modest nature should only be used with Rock Polish; U-Turn variants need Timid to compensate for their lack of a way to boost speed.

That said, there was a guy here that said the Sand Force Landorus has much less counters than the Sheer Force set. This is true; in fact, even those few counters can be bypassed by Gravity. However, Sheer Force Landorus requires much less suport in general and it hits harder than Sand Force Landorus if sandstorm is not active. It also do not receive Life Orb recoil for its main STAB and coverage moves. It is the Sheer Force set that makes Landorus so much broken.
 
This has more truth to it than people realize.
You'll almost always have a STAB/SE attack to hit it with and in all honesty, it's a dud before it Rock Polishes.
That and the Fact that Relying on Rock Polish forces it to give up a valuable coverage moveslot.
The thing is, Landorus can't run U-turn AND Rock Polish; you have to choose that fourth slot. Like SoulFly said, you cant really afford to run U-turn over RP, and if you choose to, you are giving up the coverage move against Celebi. Of course, you don't know which one it has, but having an opposing Landorus u-turn, killing your Celebi means that you now should be able to revenge kill it, or at least force it to switch out assuming you have something faster (which isn't that hard. 101 is good, but it's by no means spectacular). Sure, your Celebi, a great check to Landorus, is dead, but Lando can't RP sweep now,and you know it because it cannot run both moves. It is now way more manageable due to this. U-turn/RP is basically deciding between a late-game sweep and a Celebi kill (btw, u-turn never OHKOs Specially Defensive Celebi).

Bottom line, if it RPs, you can check with Celebi. If it u-turns it can't threaten a sweep until everything faster than it (a lot of things) are gone. That being said, other things still check it.

Also, agreeing with SmashBros, Gyarados is an amazing counter to Landorus-I; it can turn the game around by simply switching in on Landorus. It can proceed to sub or DD on the switch, or just use Waterfall.

Rotom-W can also check it. It cannot take two focus blasts, but being able to force focus blast being used, and the fact that Hydro pump/hp ice can OHKO is meritable

All in all, Landorus has to run either Rock Polish OR U-turn. Either way, he has his checks. I am not saying Landorus-I does not deserve a suspect test or ban, but these facts stand true.
 
Ok, I got the req of the OU current. Now, I have to do a team without Lando-I for the suspect.

I lend toward a ban for Lando-I, I find he's pretty gamebreaking, but I wait to see some arguments here.
 
1-252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 252+ SpD Blissey: 237-281 (36.34 - 43.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 260-307 (36.93 - 43.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

2-252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 252 Def Blissey: 388-457 (59.5 - 70.09%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

3-General:

Sheer force:




Sand Force:
I'll start with your calcs, rock polish Lando is played modest nature for precisely 2HKO Chansey and Blissey after Stealth Rock, then when I was talking about latios choice spec I wanted to obviously say Draco Meteor because Psyshock has an advantage over Blissey and Chansey, while Dracometoer and Focus Blast no... then you mean Cresselia, but a good player always has a pokemon for him as scizor-tyranitar-Weavile sorry but this Pokemon has nothing to do in OverUsed
and I hope you noticed that to play Cresselia you must have Sun to use MoonLight, we are forced to play Sun for Landorus? Be serious.
And lol @ Jellicent .. i think it's a joke
 

Haruno

Skadi :)
is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
Psychic is guarantees an OHKO on Keldeo, lol that's like way more important than gengar and party. Next best is EP which does an average of 80%. Also it's an added boost against sun to ensure Venusaur cannot switch in and force you out at will. HP Ice does a miserable 60% at best.
How's this relevant? Keldeo out speeds and wouldn't switch in on lando-I in the first place seeing as how everything lando-I has will hit it for 60% minimum.
 
Okay so I got the first half of this suspect test done.

Landorus (M) @ Life Orb
Trait: Sheer Force
EVs: 80 HP / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
Modest Nature
- Earth Power
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Rock Polish
- Focus Blast

Keldeo (Keldeo-Resolute) @ Expert Belt
Trait: Justified
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Ghost]
- Icy Wind

Tyranitar @ Choice Band
Trait: Sand Stream
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature
- Crunch
- Stone Edge
- Pursuit
- Superpower

Heatran @ Leftovers
Trait: Flash Fire
EVs: 248 HP / 252 SDef / 8 Def
Calm Nature
IVs: 30 Atk / 30 Def
- Lava Plume
- Stealth Rock
- Protect
- Roar

Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
Trait: Levitate
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
Timid Nature
- Draco Meteor
- Psyshock
- Trick
- Dragon Pulse

Amoonguss @ Black Sludge
Trait: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 28 SAtk / 228 SDef
Calm Nature
- Giga Drain
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Spore
- Stun Spore

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So these are all of my battles under this alt (minus a few I forgot to save) and will be what I try to base my judgment off of. It's been a horribly long time since I've played OU so any of you with more experience can check out a few of them to see if I'm overlooking something.

Overall, I found Landorus to be a fine Pokemon but just as fine as every other member of my team. Keldeo was the real star and was often a lot easier win condition than a RP sweep. As I said before, Landorus is just too slow and there are far too many checks that keep him from sweeping. Sure I can remove them all with Tyranitar but that takes time and effort (and some can still elude a Pursuit). With how incredibly fast pased the OU metagame is, it just took too long for Tyranitar to do his job so that Landorus could do his.

Rock Polish sweeps aside, Landorus is one of those Pokemon that you don't want to give free turns to. As others have pointed out it is next to impossible to switch into which means every time it comes in on something slower odds are it'll be taking a kill. Sadly, the OU metagame has SO many of these Pokemon. We have Kyu-B at 95, Hydreigon getting a leg up at 98, Landorus at 101, then Keldeo/Terrakion at 108, and lastly Latios at 110. These are all pretty impressive powerhouses and, although there is a drop in overall threat as the speed rises, they still have enough brute force to take kills if given the chance. (unless you happen to have a select few hard checks/counters) It's really hard to say that it is twisting the metagame by encouraging teambuilders to speed creep 101 when BWOU itself is just a massive speed creep.

So, I don't really know which way to vote this thing. I can't really say it's perverting the metagame when there is so much competition that are at a similar level of ridiculous power. On the other hand, removing it would only really do OU some good as it would chop away at all the massive amounts of super powerful attackers. Again though, why him over somebody else? I'm not sure whether I should choose between doing the metagame even a bit of good or avoid making an almost needless ban.

All that said, there's still the suspect ladder I have to go play on so maybe I'm underestimating the metagame shift from it's removal.

Edit: Although, the fact that the simulator doesn't reflect the in-game mechanics concerning Dream Balls makes me lean towards a ban a bit more. Is there any other Pokemon that can fake two completely and almost equally dangerous sets at the same time? That's a pretty insane lure, forget guessing who is packing the Bug-type attack between Keldeo/Lando.
 
A comparison to Landorus I find helpful is Sceptile in RU. It has two vastly different sets with vastly different counters. However each set is manageable. Physical I don't have to talk about we all know that it's suspected for its special set's not the physical ones. It's special set is quite predictable. It has to run EP/HP ice/Focus Miss and then either U-turn or RP. RP makes it easy to wall by Celebi, the Pink Blobs, and Lati@s. Without RP it can get Revenged by Anything faster or any scarf. It has very low bulk. Also it should be noted that Lando was difficulty OHKOing Latios

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 169-200 (56.14 - 66.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and Latios Outspeeds and OHKO's if Lando runs U-turn. Latios can ALWAYS revenge barring a crit. Offensive Latias can do this even better. Of course T-tar support makes it dangerous but

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 208-246 (53.88 - 63.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

T-tar can't switch in safely. Scarf celebi could technically beat it but that's a terrible idea. And no matter what Aqua Jet and Ice Shard take him out so the following pokemon can kill him:

Azumarill
Feraligatr
Sharpedo
Samurott
Kabutops
Dragonite
Abomasnow
Cloyster
Mamoswine
Weavile
Donphan

Quite the list. While not all of them are common AJ/IS users they are certaintly viable. So I believe Landorus is not ban worthy
 
Even though I use both Landourus-I and Keldeo I would have to say that they are too strong for the current OU metagame. But this thread is for Landourus-I so in my opinion is just too over powered with Sheer Force and hits a lot of things for ether neutral or super-effective damage making it very threatening.
 

Adamant Zoroark

catchy catchphrase
is a Contributor Alumnus
A comparison to Landorus I find helpful is Sceptile in RU. It has two vastly different sets with vastly different counters. However each set is manageable. Physical I don't have to talk about we all know that it's suspected for its special set's not the physical ones. It's special set is quite predictable. It has to run EP/HP ice/Focus Miss and then either U-turn or RP. RP makes it easy to wall by Celebi, the Pink Blobs, and Lati@s. Without RP it can get Revenged by Anything faster or any scarf. It has very low bulk. Also it should be noted that Lando was difficulty OHKOing Latios

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 169-200 (56.14 - 66.44%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

and Latios Outspeeds and OHKO's if Lando runs U-turn. Latios can ALWAYS revenge barring a crit. Offensive Latias can do this even better. Of course T-tar support makes it dangerous but

252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Surf vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 208-246 (53.88 - 63.73%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

T-tar can't switch in safely. Scarf celebi could technically beat it but that's a terrible idea. And no matter what Aqua Jet and Ice Shard take him out so the following pokemon can kill him:

Azumarill
Feraligatr
Sharpedo
Samurott
Kabutops
Dragonite
Abomasnow
Cloyster
Mamoswine
Weavile
Donphan

Quite the list. While not all of them are common AJ/IS users they are certaintly viable. So I believe Landorus is not ban worthy
Did you seriously just bring up Samurott in an OU thread and call it OU viable?

... *headdesk*

Sharpedo rarely runs Aqua Jet, and if it doesn't (which it probably doesn't), the only way it'll outspeed a +2 RP Landorus is with a triple protect, so no.

I think you're severely underestimating just how bulky Landorus-I is. CB Dragonite's ExtremeSpeed only does 50.15 - 59.24%, so if Multiscale is broken Dragonite loses.

0 Atk Donphan Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 148-176 (46.39 - 55.17%) -- 62.5% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Donphan: 344-407 (89.58 - 105.98%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO

Yeah... No on Donphan.

You'll probably only see Ice Shard on Utility Cloyster, which does not OHKO Landorus with Ice Shard (63.94 - 75.23%), while Landorus in turn OHKOes with Earth Power (140.59 - 166%). No on Cloyster.

Before you say something checks a Pokemon... Make sure it actually checks that Pokemon, and make sure it's actually OU viable.
 

Soul Fly

IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
is a Contributor Alumnus
How's this relevant? Keldeo out speeds and wouldn't switch in on lando-I in the first place seeing as how everything lando-I has will hit it for 60% minimum.
Because we're suspect testing Landorus-I on the basis that it is supposed to be gamebreaking cockbuster to sweep through entire teams after it gets a rock polish in. I'm just showing that It has severe 4MSS if it intends to do that.
 
I have never done a suspect test but would really like to get involved. So how does this work? Are we all supposed to use a team with Landorus-I in it?
 

Halcyon.

@Choice Specs
is a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus
You can use any team you want. You just have to get to Glicko of 2000 +/- 65 on the Suspect ladder and the OU Current ladder
 

Arkian

this is the state of grace
is a Contributor Alumnus
I have never done a suspect test but would really like to get involved. So how does this work? Are we all supposed to use a team with Landorus-I in it?
No, you will have to ladder on both the OU Suspect Test ladder (Landorus-I is banned here), and the normal OU ladder. You'll have to get a Glicko2 of 2000 and a Glicko2 Deviation of 65 or lower on BOTH of those ladders. You'll have until June 30th to do this. Iconic will then post a screenshot of the ladders in another thread (called "Voter Identification Thread") and you'll have to identify yourself. On July 1st, Iconic will post another thread in which the people that got the requirement mentioned above can vote Landorus-I to be banned, or rested from/in OU. Sorry if I missed anything.

Btw, I got this from the OP, so next time, read that first.
 
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