np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[phantom]

U-turn doesn't kill Celebi, meaning you can Recover it off and now you know the opponent's set and can simply kill Landorus with something faster like Keldeo or even Starmie.

lol wtf

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Naive>Timid, just for that. And even Timid can outdamage what Celebi can recover.

And Celebi can't be trapped by Tyranitar either thanks to Baton Pass.

Choice Scarf~

If I had Rotom-W and Latias, then you can't trap my designated Landorus counter and I still have something else that checks it waiting on the sidelines.

***Check. Rotom-W is a check, that's already been established. And Latias can be trapped, lol.

The point I was trying to make (which you've now steered the conversation away from) is that many teams check Landorus multiple times without even having to try because the defensive Pokémon that check him also check/counter a plethora of other things.

They're good yes, but the point is you have to use them because you're limited to the defensive Pokemon you can choose w/o being mauled by Lando. For example, if Lando where out of the picture, I could run defensive Toxicroak, Amoongus, and standard Jellicent to greater effect i.e., counter Keldeo+Ttar (tbh I think Goth could just make that core just as bad this one... but that's for another discussion). Lando limits what type of defensive mons you can use. I'm not interested in using the same few Pokemon on every team (who are either Pursuit bait or absurdly easy to wear down anyway) for the sole purpose of checking one threat.

 

[Halcyon.]

lol wtf

0 Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 322-380 (79.7 - 94.05%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

Naive>Timid, just for that. And even Timid can outdamage what Celebi can recover.




Choice Scarf~



***Check. Rotom-W is a check, that's already been established. And Latias can be trapped, lol.



They're good yes, but the point is you have to use them because you're limited to the defensive Pokemon you can choose w/o being mauled by Lando. For example, if Lando where out of the picture I could run defensive Toxicroak, Amoongus, and standard jellicent to greater effect. Lando limits what type of defensive mons you can use. I'm not interested in using the same few Pokemon on every team (who are either Pursuit bait or absurdly easy to wear down anyway) for the sole purpose of checking one threat.

Oh yes, I forgot that 79%=100%, so you're right, U-turn does kill. I didn't say that you would Recover back to full, I said you could Recover after her U-Turns. That's true. Here's how this situation would go:

You recover as Landorus does, let's say, 87% with U-Turn. That leaves you at (with SR) 51% health at the end of the turn. Then Tyranitar Pursuits. If it's choice Scarf, it's doing 33%-40% to Celebi, meaning you can just keep Recovering, and now you know that it's a ScarfTar. If it's Banded you can recover, see that you're faster than its Pursuit, and Baton Pass out. Now you know it's a BandTar. Oh and even if you DO kill Celebi with Pursuit, now you have to deal with my Lucario, which can now OHKO your Landorus at +2 because you lost 22.5% of your health U-turning on Celebi.

And you shouldn't be running defensive Toxicroak for plenty of reasons, not just Landorus but also Psychic types like Lati@s, Celebi, Alakazam, etc.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 160-188 (39.6 - 46.53%) -- 34.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

So yeah, go ahead and run Jellicent all you want. Amoongus is also still extremely viable. Landorus, as many have said before needs absolutely PERFECT prediction in order to beat most of the things that check it. Even then, Rotom-W is a fantastic check since you still need luck to beat it even IF you predict the switch and FB, not to mention the fact that the accuracy of FB means you have less than a 50% chance of even landing it.

 

[phantom]

You recover as Landorus does, let's say, 87% with U-Turn. That leaves you at (with SR) 51% health at the end of the turn. Then Tyranitar Pursuits. If it's choice Scarf, it's doing 33%-40% to Celebi, meaning you can just keep Recovering, and now you know that it's a ScarfTar.

ScarfTar is crunching that shit.

If it's Banded you can recover, see that you're faster than its Pursuit, and Baton Pass out. Now you know it's a BandTar. Oh and even if you DO kill Celebi with Pursuit, now you have to deal with my Lucario, which can now OHKO your Landorus at +2 because you lost 22.5% of your health U-turning on Celebi.

Irrelevant. I could just say "X counters this and go in circles".

And you shouldn't be running defensive Toxicroak for plenty of reasons, not just Landorus but also Psychic types like Lati@s, Celebi, Alakazam, etc.

lolwut, it counters Ttar, Terrkaion, Keldeo, Breloom (after sleep), and checks a bunch of other shit. Why would I not want to use that? You're grasping for straws here.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 160-188 (39.6 - 46.53%) -- 34.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

Modest does around 80%, good luck surviving that. And if it U-turns to Ttar while you switch in, you're fucked.

Amoongus is also still extremely viable

"extremely" is pushing it, especially with Lando.

Landorus, as many have said before needs absolutely PERFECT prediction in order to beat most of the things that check it.

Lol, no you don't. Infernape is something that needs flawless prediction, Landorus doesn't, not by a long shot.

Even then, Rotom-W is a fantastic check since you still need luck to beat it even IF you predict the switch and FB, not to mention the fact that the accuracy of FB means you have less than a 50% chance of even landing it.

Since when does a defensive Pokemon ever ever ever ever pressure an offensive Pokemon? Ever??? This prediction crap goes both way, and guess what? You get no penalty switching out besides a measly SR recoil while SR+Focus Blast hitting and residual damage wears down Rotom-W real fast. You don't need to predict "perfectly", one good move is all you need to lock in the game.

 

[Nglittleguy]

when is voting going to be up. The forums being down should not have affected laddering at all.

Pocket EDIT: Voting thread is already up; Haunter announced it earlier here

 

[MikeDawg]

If celebi is in the picture, it either is switching in on u-turn (no time to recover), took an ep and then a u-turn (ko), or came in after a kill (lando won)

And perfect prediction isn't that hard when your options are earth power or u-turn (with maybe an fblast on an obvious rotom w for good measure)

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Oh yes, I forgot that 79%=100%, so you're right, U-turn does kill. I didn't say that you would Recover back to full, I said you could Recover after her U-Turns. That's true. Here's how this situation would go:

You recover as Landorus does, let's say, 87% with U-Turn. That leaves you at (with SR) 51% health at the end of the turn. Then Tyranitar Pursuits. If it's choice Scarf, it's doing 33%-40% to Celebi, meaning you can just keep Recovering, and now you know that it's a ScarfTar. If it's Banded you can recover, see that you're faster than its Pursuit, and Baton Pass out. Now you know it's a BandTar. Oh and even if you DO kill Celebi with Pursuit, now you have to deal with my Lucario, which can now OHKO your Landorus at +2 because you lost 22.5% of your health U-turning on Celebi.

And you shouldn't be running defensive Toxicroak for plenty of reasons, not just Landorus but also Psychic types like Lati@s, Celebi, Alakazam, etc.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 160-188 (39.6 - 46.53%) -- 34.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

So yeah, go ahead and run Jellicent all you want. Amoongus is also still extremely viable. Landorus, as many have said before needs absolutely PERFECT prediction in order to beat most of the things that check it. Even then, Rotom-W is a fantastic check since you still need luck to beat it even IF you predict the switch and FB, not to mention the fact that the accuracy of FB means you have less than a 50% chance of even landing it.

Okay first off, 79% is a pretty high chance of a KO.

Also your Cclebi vs. Tyranitar example is ridiculous. Why would Celebi stay in and recover on a potential Banded Pursuit? It's most likely going to Baton Pass, leaving it at too low health to wall Landorus-I for the rest of the game. And you're assuming Lucario is often paired up with Celebi which is a very bold claim to make.

Here's a list of Lucario's team mates

Teammates |
| Gengar +4.235% |
| Skarmory +3.020% |
| Garchomp +2.986% |
| Tyranitar +2.366% |
| Gallade +1.951% |
| Empoleon +1.594% |
| Alakazam +1.446% |
| Infernape +1.331% |
| Salamence +1.268% |
| Scrafty +1.108% |
| Breloom +1.087% |
| Azelf +0.833%

Yeah, Celebi isn't even on the list, lmao.


Defensive Croak is legit, go check out my recent RMT if you want to see how and why it's used.

Well, Rotom-W is barely a check, and Focus Blast hitting twice in a row iirc is 49%. 49% of the time you're going to be losing. Yeah, nice check.

 

[ginganinja]

Hi, here is my Senario.

Celebi used Recover! (WHOO YEA I KNOW IM FASTER)
Tyranitar used Crunch!

Well Fuck, gg u lose.

The point is you just ignored Crunch on Tyranitar, when discussing staying in and recovering. This is a 50/50 where you need to predict right or you get KOed. Not something Id enjoy.

But hey, im human, I could be wrong. So lets play this out assuming your a prediction god. Landorus-I U-Turns, you Recover off health, and now your at 51% health. I bring in Tyranitar and I Crunch. Lets say you predict that, and you Baton Pass out / switch because, idk, your a fucking prediction god. Now Landorus-I switchs in 3 turns later, you go to Celebi and realise, oh fuck, ur still at 52%. Congrats, your counter got smoked.
Doesn't have to be Landorus-I either, as a 50% Celebi is exeptionally vulnerable to a lot of pokemon. Suddenly Keldeo threatens to like, 2KO and yea, the senario just sucks for you.

But wait, this was assuming favourable circumstanes. What happens in a real game if you try this?

Celebi switchs in, takes an EP, and Landorus-I kills. OHKO = GG
Celebi comes in after a KO (or double switch), takes SR damage = Landorus-I nails that 40% chance at a OHKO while you were retarded enough to attempt to recover off that damage. GG you lose.

So yea, if im being nice id say that the above logic in that post is flawed. At worst id be calling it retarded. Stop promoting this shit.

 

[Nysyr]

Oh yes, I forgot that 79%=100%, so you're right, U-turn does kill. I didn't say that you would Recover back to full, I said you could Recover after her U-Turns. That's true. Here's how this situation would go:

You recover as Landorus does, let's say, 87% with U-Turn. That leaves you at (with SR) 51% health at the end of the turn. Then Tyranitar Pursuits. If it's choice Scarf, it's doing 33%-40% to Celebi, meaning you can just keep Recovering, and now you know that it's a ScarfTar. If it's Banded you can recover, see that you're faster than its Pursuit, and Baton Pass out. Now you know it's a BandTar. Oh and even if you DO kill Celebi with Pursuit, now you have to deal with my Lucario, which can now OHKO your Landorus at +2 because you lost 22.5% of your health U-turning on Celebi.

And you shouldn't be running defensive Toxicroak for plenty of reasons, not just Landorus but also Psychic types like Lati@s, Celebi, Alakazam, etc.

Also: 252 SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 160-188 (39.6 - 46.53%) -- 34.77% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather

So yeah, go ahead and run Jellicent all you want. Amoongus is also still extremely viable. Landorus, as many have said before needs absolutely PERFECT prediction in order to beat most of the things that check it. Even then, Rotom-W is a fantastic check since you still need luck to beat it even IF you predict the switch and FB, not to mention the fact that the accuracy of FB means you have less than a 50% chance of even landing it.

Firstly, RP lando-i runs modest. Secondly, SpDef jelly is garbage and I'm pretty sure can't even recover stall BandTard that's burned.

-2 252+ Atk Choice Band Tyranitar Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Jellicent: 296-350 (73.26 - 86.63%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So given that you brought jellicent in on a U-Turn (lol?) You just took U-turn + sandstorm damage + probably rocks as well, and are now 100% trapped and probably won't even get to do anything with your jelly.

Also people running U-turn Lando, have you considered running Slude Wave over HP ice or Focus Blast? Would bait SpDef celebi pretty hard, although you do miss out on trolling lati@s with U-Turn

Edit: lol read post wrong, but wtf don't say one thing in start of post and then post a calc that is favouring the other side of the argument. GDI.

 

[Spinda]

not to mention the fact that the accuracy of FB means you have less than a 50% chance of even landing it.

As much as I'm anti-ban, I'd rather keep accuracy out of the argumentation, it's a horrible thing to rely on, and while Landorus has slightly less than a 50% chance of landing 2 focus blasts in a row, if you consider hydro pumps accuracy, you're still at a statistical advantage if you predict the switch and focus blast.

Of course, it's retarded to stay in and focus blast after your first one missed on the switch, hoping hydro pump misses.. Which is exactly why you don't use accuracy as an argument, only a fool relies on such things.

 

[Pocket]

Halcyon, why would I keep Celebi on an obvious U-turn? A more sensible thing to do is Celebi comes in to eat that Earth Power, and switches out to something that can tank the obvious U-turn or HP Ice (think Scizor, Keldeo, Scarf Jirachi, etc). That's why people must stop "pokemon beats pokemon with move" argument, because you can color the scenario in any way to make your side look favorable.

In other words, yes, these pokemon were useful before lando. But now you have to run either heavy offense or a multitude of them to survive

The sheer decrease in lando's offensive prowess is certainly fair evidence for this​

This is what I've been seeing, and I don't know how you can justify banning Landorus after admitting this. You just stated that you can run offense or if running a defensive team have multiple checks to Landorus, which is easily achieved as I've stated in my previous post. There are sufficient answers to deal with Landorus, hence its reduced effectiveness. No constraints in teambuilding here. Your Keldeo check, Tentacruel, getting wrecked by Landorus honestly isn't a concern. That's essentially what Halcyon wanted to drive home. So why ban it?

I also agree that Landorus is extremely reliant on prediction - ie inconsistent. Earth Power is simply not a good spam move for obvious reasons stated already, and U-turn does cost Landorus 22.5% health while not doing much to the opposing team that other U-turners couldn't do. It reminds me of Nidoqueen in RU before it rose to UU - the damage calcs are scary, but in actual practice it was a mon that required heavy prediction to be truly lethal, and it was just another ez prey for my Rain Sweeper, LO Aerodactyl, LO Sigilyph, CB Entei, LO Moltres, etc. Landorus requires similar heavy prediction to be as broken on paper, and oftentimes it ends up being another free kill for mons like Keldeo, Latios, Mamoswine, Starmie, Tornadus, Feraligatr, etc.

EDIT: Novaray, the point is that Landorus didn't accomplish much, because Celebi (which is a bad example to begin with) ate Landorus's Earth Power and stopped Landorus from doing much else as I switch something else into its U-turn or HP Ice. Everything else is Pokemon beats Pokemon with move, which shouldn't come into the argument.

 

[Nova]

Just a point though, they can predict your Scizor/Jirachi switch in and if they use Earth Power then your U-turn Landorus check is gone. Even if they still use U-turn that's a perfectly safe move so as you bring in your Pokemon to take it, they've already built the momentum and gained switch initiative

 

[Jukain]

snip

I was talking about the pro-ban mentality. Also, as I said -- SubRev always beats Tyranitar.

1/3 is not standard battling conditions. 7/8 or so would be standard conditions. I'm running a spinner or Xatu, so there goes your hazards. It's not /that/ hard to prevent Stealth Rock if you don't give up free turns -- this is always one of my priorities. Stealth Rock is not assumed -- it can be expected, but if I'm taking measures to keep it off the field, then it won't be there when the attacker comes in.

 

[Wizarus]

If you immediately switch out as Landorus-I's U-turn, aren't you always at a disadvantage? Not only are you taking hazard damage, you don't accomplish much of anything if Celebi switches out in fear of U-turn.

 

[MikeDawg]

Halcyon, why would I keep Celebi on an obvious U-turn? A more sensible thing to do is Celebi comes in to eat that Earth Power, and switches out to something that can tank the obvious U-turn or HP Ice (think Scizor, Keldeo, Scarf Jirachi, etc). That's why people must stop "pokemon beats pokemon with move" argument, because you can color the scenario in any way to make your side look favorable.



This is what I've been seeing, and I don't know how you can justify banning Landorus after admitting this. You just stated that you can run offense or if running a defensive team have multiple checks to Landorus, which is easily achieved as I've stated in my previous post. There are sufficient answers to deal with Landorus, hence its reduced effectiveness. No constraints in teambuilding here. Your Keldeo check, Tentacruel, getting wrecked by Landorus honestly isn't a concern. That's essentially what Halcyon wanted to drive home. So why ban it?

I also agree that Landorus is extremely reliant on prediction - ie inconsistent. Earth Power is simply not a good spam move for obvious reasons stated already, and U-turn does cost Landorus 22.5% health while not doing much to the opposing team that other U-turners couldn't do. It reminds me of Nidoqueen in RU before it rose to UU - the damage calcs are scary, but in actual practice it was a mon that required heavy prediction to be truly lethal, and it was just another ez prey for my Rain Sweeper, LO Aerodactyl, LO Sigilyph, CB Entei, LO Moltres, etc. Landorus requires similar heavy prediction to be as broken on paper, and oftentimes it ends up being another free kill for mons like Keldeo, Latios, Mamoswine, Starmie, Tornadus, Feraligatr, etc.

EDIT: Novaray, the point is that Landorus didn't accomplish much, because Celebi (which is a bad example to begin with) ate Landorus's Earth Power and stopped Landorus from doing much else as I switch something else into its U-turn or HP Ice. Everything else is Pokemon beats Pokemon with move, which shouldn't come into the argument.

If we were to drop arceus (extremekiller only for the sake of argument) and allowed it to centralize the meta, there would be a huge influx of skarms, ferrothorns, bronzongs, etc.

Thus, arceus would be sufficiently handled.

How could you argue to ban it after it's quite clear that it can be dealt with?

(Of course this is an extreme(killer) example, but it lies within the same flawed principle as your argument)

 

[Pocket]

I can assure you, ExtremeKiller Arseus would still dominate BW2 OU even if you prepare for it. There's a difference between "I prepare for a threat, and now it's manageable," versus "I prepare for a threat, but it still ends up fucking me up." Arseus is the latter, Landorus is the former.

Note that the there are also far less switch-ins to Arseus as opposed to Landorus, and even far less mons that can check Arseus, thanks to its 120 Speed, amazing bulk, and ridiculously strong ExtremeSpeed. The options for dealing with Landorus is plentiful when compared to Arseus. The difference in team constraints applied by these two is painfully obvious to see. Nice try tho

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I was talking about the pro-ban mentality. Also, as I said -- SubRev always beats Tyranitar.

1/3 is not standard battling conditions. 7/8 or so would be standard conditions. I'm running a spinner or Xatu, so there goes your hazards. It's not /that/ hard to prevent Stealth Rock if you don't give up free turns -- this is always one of my priorities. Stealth Rock is not assumed -- it can be expected, but if I'm taking measures to keep it off the field, then it won't be there when the attacker comes in.

Well Jukain, you and I both have different ideas of what is standard. But if Tyranitar is being run 1/3 on the time, I have to expect my counters to Landorus-I take sand damage. That's it. And when Stealth Rock is on every single team, and it's distribution is amazing, you have to assume it's going to be up (because most of the time it will be). I can't believe that you're relying on countering Landorus-I with terrible Pokemon in this metagame (Mandibuzz, Gyarados etc) just because you think you can keep SR off of the field.

 

[MikeDawg]

I can assure you, ExtremeKiller Arseus would still dominate BW2 OU even if you prepare for it. There's a difference between "I prepare for a threat, and now it's manageable," versus "I prepare for a threat, but it still ends up fucking me up." Arseus is the latter, Landorus is the former.

Note that the there are also far less switch-ins to Arseus as opposed to Landorus, and even far less mons that can check Arseus, thanks to its 120 Speed, amazing bulk, and ridiculously strong ExtremeSpeed. The options for dealing with Landorus is plentiful when compared to Arseus. The difference in team constraints applied by these two is painfully obvious to see. Nice try tho

#missedthepoint

How about excadrill, then?

If it were to stay in ou, gliscor+lando-t+loom+azumarill+skarm+bronzong would skyrocket in usage.

Would excadrill be able to perform at its best? Hell no. In fact, it would even be somewhat of a liability against some teams (like lando against a team of keldeo/scizor/latias/rotom-w/gyarados/politoed). Does that mean it isn't broken just because the meta "adapted" to it? Again, no.

Or maybe blaziken. It decides to stick around; politoed+jellicent+tentacruel+dragonite+azumarill rise. It is managable. If you took away centralization it wouldn't be.

See what I mean?

Now think back to when lando was still a relatively new threat and how easily it would be to sweep. Surprise factor? Not really considering speed wouldn't be the issue as I believe the most commmon set was scarf. What is different is that teams don't "naturally" have 3-5 checks to it; there was no need.

If the anti-ban side is so keen on examining things in a vacuum, then you must also remove frim the picture the apparent centralization that has decreased landorus' viabilty simply by virtue of overpreperation

I would like to be able to run spdef jirachi+spdef celebi to stand a chance against rain boosted water attacks as well as latios and alakazam and the like and NOT still lose to one of the most prominant special threats, tyvm

 

[vyomov]

@ShootingStarmie: How exactly is Gyarados "terrible"? It's SubDD set is one of THE MOST powerful sweepers in the current meta.

 

[Pocket]

I guess we must agree to disagree, MikeDawg. I disagree that we are overpreparing (emphasis on over) for Landorus, thereby contributing to an overly restrictive teambuilding. Most of the teams I've seen and used can handle Landorus without taking extreme measures that you've implied.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

@ShootingStarmie: How exactly is Gyarados "terrible"? It's SubDD set is one of THE MOST powerful sweepers in the current meta.

Sorry vyomov to burst your bubble but, it can't be both a powerful sweeper and wall Keldeo / Landorus. And it's probably more important to wall these two at this moment in the metagame.

Eh, it's weak to SR, it's base attack isn't great (125 isn't what it used to be), and most of the fighting types that it's meant to be walling can get past it just with raw power like Keldeo, Breloom, and Terrakion (well it's not meant to be walling Terrakion I guess, but you get my point). Honestly I've tried using it in this metagame to counter that ever common core, and on paper it seems like a good idea, but I just don't like it personally.

These calcs are using EVs on the bulky Dragon Dance set.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 146-172 (41.35 - 48.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 426-507 (120.67 - 143.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO

 

[ginganinja]

Sorry vyomov to burst your bubble but, it can't be both a powerful sweeper and wall Keldeo / Landorus. And it's probably more important to wall these two at this moment in the metagame.

Eh, it's weak to SR, it's base attack isn't great (125 isn't what it used to be), and most of the fighting types that it's meant to be walling can get past it just with raw power like Keldeo, Breloom, and Terrakion (well it's not meant to be walling Terrakion I guess, but you get my point). Honestly I've tried using it in this metagame to counter that ever common core, and on paper it seems like a good idea, but I just don't like it personally.

These calcs are using EVs on the bulky Dragon Dance set.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 146-172 (41.35 - 48.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Bullet Seed (3 hits) vs. 88 HP / 4 Def Gyarados: 426-507 (120.67 - 143.62%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Firstly, if your trying to wall the Keldeo + Landorus-I core using Gyarados, then you are running Rest Talk almost always. Heck, you're very likely running specially defensive EVs (yes this is viable on defensive Gyarados) in order to take the hits better. You cannot wall Keldeo + Landorus-I using Sub DD Gyarados, only check. Note that this doesn't make Gyarados a bad pokemon.

If you are trying to sweep with Gyarados, then your calculations that you just posted are misleading in the extreme. Why the fuck am I bringing in my set up sweeper and trying to set up on a +2 Breloom (ignoring that Moxie is also common as fuck). Like seriously. Breloom cannot switch into Sub DD Gyarados regardless, since Gyarados can DD the switch (or Sub) and follow up with Bounce. GG

Secondly, again, why the fuck am I setting up on the most powerful version of Keldeo in the fucking game. Specs Keldeo nukes through fucking DD Dragonite, but this doesn't mean that DD Dragonite is shit. Again, Specs Keldeo loses in a practical sense (ie it doesn't counter) due to DD + Bounce. Scarf Keldeo cannot really revenge Gyarados either unless it packs HP Electric, and its still worried about Bounce.

Sub DD Gyarados might not "counter" Landorus-I + Keldeo, but it checks the core pretty damn hard, especially when the standard sets for the above mons are U-Turn / EP / FB / HP Ice and a Scarf set respectively.

Im sorry ShootinStarmie, but all im getting from your post is you expecting to run a sweeper while still "walling" Specs Keldeo (under Rain since thats what Gyarados is usually used with), which is pretty much one of the strongest pokemon in the metagame. Furthermore im seeing that argument that since this sweeper fails at walling Specs Keldeo (or a fucking +2 Breloom) it must be bad. Either provide better logic as to why Gyarados is terrible (hint, its actually not!) or refrain from posting as misleading and irrelevant calculations are just going to piss me off.

I apologize if I am being unfairly aggressive here, but 40+ hours without sleep means I have fucking zero tolerance for people (apparently) manipulating situations to make a pokemon look bad...especially when it actually isn't.

EDIT: On further reflection its possible that you meant that Gyarados cannot counter both Keldeo and Landorus-I with its DD set which is true, but it still pisses me off how your post implies DD Gyara should be taking Specs Keldeo (or that by not tanking it its shit) as thats plain wrong. Either way, can you be clear on what you expect Gyarados to do, since all im seeing is you expecting it to take on some of the strongest attacking sets in the metagame....while running a) not Rest Talk and b) a set which lacks a significant amount of bulk compared with other bulkier Gyarados sets.

tl;dr

Don't expect Sub DD Gyarados to counter Specs Keldeo and +2 Breloom because this Gyarados is a SWEEPER, not a wall. Try running a more bulky set (prolly Rest Talk / Chesto Rest) if you want to attempt beating the above mons.

 

[Aerra]

You said Landorus was restrictive on team building. I'm saying that isn't the case. That's all.

Amoongus is also still extremely viable. .... Rotom-W is a fantastic check ...

Landorus, as many have said before needs absolutely PERFECT prediction in order to beat most of the things that check it.

There are sufficient answers to deal with Landorus, hence its reduced effectiveness. No constraints in teambuilding here.

I also agree that Landorus is extremely reliant on prediction - ie inconsistent. Earth Power is simply not a good spam move for obvious reasons stated already, and U-turn does cost Landorus 22.5% health while not doing much to the opposing team that other U-turners couldn't do.

I don't think all of the intensifiers being thrown around to defend Landorus are helping. Amoongus is not "extremely viable" in terms of checking Landorus, and Rotom is not a "fantastic" check, especially in the context that Halcyon gave (Focus Blast accuracy).

Let me state the obvious in that Landorus does not need absolutely PERFECT prediction to beat most of the things that check it. It can often predict incorrectly, and, due to U-turn, ultimately retain momentum for its team. Crisis averted, but a good player is likely going to get him back in safely at some point, now armed with better knowledge of how the opposing team can respond. If the prediction fails again, and again, sure, the chances of it being a problem decrease —but this can be said of any threat in the game. To use that as an argument why Landorus is fine in OU comes off as a weak one to me.

I don't agree that Landorus is "extremely" reliant on prediction. How that can be said of a Pokemon when U-turn is a part of its best set is difficult to comprehend. U-turn is the best way to combat any prediction insecurities that may exist. He is reliant on prediction, no doubt, but there's no reason to use intensifiers and see the point drift into something much harder for people in the middle to buy.

Aerra, I don't have Rotom-W anymore, but I still have Landorus well covered in my team without really trying. Latias and Blissey are strong answers to Landorus. Specially defensive Skarmory can put some chip damage with Drill Peck while Starmie or Scarf Tar finish Landorus off, etc.

If you say "no constraints in teambuilding here," and that you have Landorus "well covered without really trying," then I think it's fair to say Blissey is quite the happy coincidence, no? You just so happen to have one of the few legitimate answers to Sheer Force Landorus. While your team is your team, I hope you can see that it undermines the point you were making. Additionally, I don't know your entire team or how it's performed, but the best stall teams I've seen haven't had room for Blissey. Regardless, I appreciate the reply.

Just to more fully hit on all the quotes I took, Landorus undeniably has a restrictive influence on team building. The question is to exactly what degree, and if that deserves to be banned. If you want to improve your arguments, don't say that Landorus is nothing to be concerned about because you would use the exact same compositions anyway; reasonable-minded players in favor of keeping Landorus will concede that he does have an influence on team composition, as you would expect of any premier metagame threat.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Firstly, if your trying to wall the Keldeo + Landorus-I core using Gyarados, then you are running Rest Talk almost always. Heck, you're very likely running specially defensive EVs (yes this is viable on defensive Gyarados) in order to take the hits better. You cannot wall Keldeo + Landorus-I using Sub DD Gyarados, only check. Note that this doesn't make Gyarados a bad pokemon.

If you are trying to sweep with Gyarados, then your calculations that you just posted are misleading in the extreme. Why the fuck am I bringing in my set up sweeper and trying to set up on a +2 Breloom (ignoring that Moxie is also common as fuck). Like seriously. Breloom cannot switch into Sub DD Gyarados regardless, since Gyarados can DD the switch (or Sub) and follow up with Bounce. GG

Secondly, again, why the fuck am I setting up on the most powerful version of Keldeo in the fucking game. Specs Keldeo nukes through fucking DD Dragonite, but this doesn't mean that DD Dragonite is shit. Again, Specs Keldeo loses in a practical sense (ie it doesn't counter) due to DD + Bounce. Scarf Keldeo cannot really revenge Gyarados either unless it packs HP Electric, and its still worried about Bounce.

Sub DD Gyarados might not "counter" Landorus-I + Keldeo, but it checks the core pretty damn hard, especially when the standard sets for the above mons are U-Turn / EP / FB / HP Ice and a Scarf set respectively.

Im sorry ShootinStarmie, but all im getting from your post is you expecting to run a sweeper while still "walling" Specs Keldeo (under Rain since thats what Gyarados is usually used with), which is pretty much one of the strongest pokemon in the metagame. Furthermore im seeing that argument that since this sweeper fails at walling Specs Keldeo (or a fucking +2 Breloom) it must be bad. Either provide better logic as to why Gyarados is terrible (hint, its actually not!) or refrain from posting as misleading and irrelevant calculations are just going to piss me off.

I apologize if I am being unfairly aggressive here, but 40+ hours without sleep means I have fucking zero tolerance for people (apparently) manipulating situations to make a pokemon look bad...especially when it actually isn't.

EDIT: On further reflection its possible that you meant that Gyarados cannot counter both Keldeo and Landorus-I with its DD set which is true, but it still pisses me off how your post implies DD Gyara should be taking Specs Keldeo (or that by not tanking it its shit) as thats plain wrong. Either way, can you be clear on what you expect Gyarados to do, since all im seeing is you expecting it to take on some of the strongest attacking sets in the metagame....while running a) not Rest Talk and b) a set which lacks a significant amount of bulk compared with other bulkier Gyarados sets.

tl;dr

Don't expect Sub DD Gyarados to counter Specs Keldeo and +2 Breloom because this Gyarados is a SWEEPER, not a wall. Try running a more bulky set (prolly Rest Talk / Chesto Rest) if you want to attempt beating the above mons.

Woah woah woah, wait a second here. I was explaining to Vyomov that Gyarados isn't a great check to Landorus and Keldeo. He claimed it was a great sweeper, so I showed him how it can't both check Keldeo / Landorus AND be a sweeper. I was trying to be fair with the calcs by using Bulky DD instead of just going full DD, since running no bulk is even worse. Of course the Rest Talk set can take on Keldeo moderately well, but we was talking about the sweeper set.

Most people switch Gyarados into Keldeo, because they believe it checks it, hence why I showed those calcs. Secondly, who cares if Keldeo can't revenge Sub Gyara? What does that prove? How is that relevant to anything going on in the discussion?

While the sets you mentioned are pretty standard, you're acting as is Specs Keldeo doesn't exist. Even if it is the standard sets like you mentioned, Bulky Gyarados still doesn't check the combo.

Lets assume this situation, which is very likely

Landorus-I out of the field. Gyarados comes in, takes SR damage (75%) takes U-turn damage U-turn: 9.06 - 10.76% (65%) and is usually forced out by the next Pokemon that comes in. After 2 switch ins with SR up, it isn't countering any of these Pokemon. And where is Gyarados going to find the time to Rest in this metagame?
Also, random question (and it's none of my business but) why have you had no sleep for 40 hours?

 

[ginganinja]

Most people switch Gyarados into Keldeo, because they believe it checks it, hence why I showed those calcs. Secondly, who cares if Keldeo can't revenge Sub Gyara? What does that prove? How is that relevant to anything going on in the discussion?

My point was that Sub DD Gyarados shouldn't be switching in on Keldeo in the first place (unless its after a KO or something so you can get a DD), ergo the Specs Keldeo calculations had no relevance (as well as the Breloom ones) since as a sweeper, your not trying to wall the above pokemon and therefore shouldn't be taking that kind of punishment.

Landorus-I out of the field. Gyarados comes in, takes SR damage (75%) takes U-turn damage U-turn: 9.06 - 10.76% (65%) and is usually forced out by the next Pokemon that comes in. After 2 switch ins with SR up, it isn't countering any of these Pokemon. And where is Gyarados going to find the time to Rest in this metagame?

I don't think I never called Rest Talk Gyarados good (or if I did I didn't intend to) for precisely the flaw that you pointed out. Worth noting tho that if I was so heavily reliant on Gyarados as my Landorus-I counter, I was heavily invest in spin support / ways to keep SR off the field or get a secondary counter.

Even if we are discussing Sub DD Gyarados, nothing in that scenario you posted above negates anything I have said. I did not say Sub DD Gyarados counters that core, merely that it checks it (which it does, you can look up the definition of check if you are unsure) so it appears we both misinterpreted each others posts :/

 

[ShootingStarmie]

My point was that Sub DD Gyarados shouldn't be switching in on Keldeo in the first place (unless its after a KO or something so you can get a DD), ergo the Specs Keldeo calculations had no relevance (as well as the Breloom ones) since as a sweeper, your not trying to wall the above pokemon and therefore shouldn't be taking that kind of punishment.



I don't think I never called Rest Talk Gyarados good (or if I did I didn't intend to) for precisely the flaw that you pointed out. Worth noting tho that if I was so heavily reliant on Gyarados as my Landorus-I counter, I was heavily invest in spin support / ways to keep SR off the field or get a secondary counter.

Even if we are discussing Sub DD Gyarados, nothing in that scenario you posted above negates anything I have said. I did not say Sub DD Gyarados counters that core, merely that it checks it (which it does, you can look up the definition of check if you are unsure) so it appears we both misinterpreted each others posts :/

I already explained how people think Gyarados is a check, hence why people will be switching in. Regardless of whether or not you think it should be switching in, people still do switch it in. Also you said Gyarados hard counters this core, but now you're saying Gyarados has to wait until something dies to switch in.

Again, SR is a standard battle condition and should be considered when countering a Pokemon. It doesn't matter if you have a spinner, because the Lando-I user could be carrying a counter to Spinning (again, I don't want to involve team mates into this discussion, because then we'd be going in circles about what team mates counter what).

I guess we did misinterprete each other's posts, but I don't consider Gyarados (any set) to be a good switch in to this core. Maybe it's a check after something is KOd and it switches in, but in this situation the Landorus-I user is winning.