np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 11 - Genie in a Bottle [Landorus is now Uber]

[Jukain]

I think that lando "struggles" so much only because the meta is partly centralized around it. Sure, you haven't gotten swept by lando in a long time, but have you ever considered that the reason for that is the favt that you have a celebi, rotom-w, and gyarados on your team? Or maybe it's that chansey+latias. Or mamoswine+rotom-w+scizor.

Hi. I'm running teams without any of these Pokemon. Landorus still isn't an issue. It gets raped by priority, and there are so many Ground immune Pokemon. I don't get swept by lando because I'm not an idiot. If I'm running lando, 99% of the time my issue is all the faster mons, not the counters. I can wear down the counters and even Pursuit trap many of them, but lando lacks opportunities to shine. It's a powerful threat, but there are a hell of a lot more of those. I'm going to agree with Conflict's sentiment about how the list of amazing calcs you can bring up is nice and all, but Terrakion has similar calcs. Landorus has as counters: Celebi, specially defensive Jellicent, Slowking, Latias, Latios, Gyarados, bulky Rotom-W, specially defensive Skarmory, specially defensive Bronzong, Mandibuzz, Gengar, Cresselia, Blissey, and Chansey. Tell me you're lacking in counters. We can go into endless arguments about how x is not a perfect counter but in reality each of these Pokemon will work almost all of the time. These are all solid Pokemon, not trash. Faster Pokemon that scare lando: Keldeo, Jolteon, Starmie, Terrakion, Jolteon, Alakazam, Chlorophyll mons, Stoutland in sand, and every Choice Scarf user ever. Pokemon that can check it with priority: Mamoswine, Azumarill, Lucario, and Dragonite. Lando isn't some amazing Pokemon that can murder everything and is impossible to revenge or force out. The fact is that it can easily be killed and easily threatened such that it isn't the biggest threat to every team ever. Sure you're going to struggle if you build an entire team that lacks any check to it. That's true of every threat that can be described as "offensive".

 

[Aerra]

^Landorus's Focus Blast only has a 16% chance of 2hko'ing Specially Defensive Rotom-W without rocks, and implying it hits twice. It's guaranteed with rocks up, but you're still implying the Landorus user has perfect prediction and it never lives up to its nickname. Running Modest puts you at >90%, but you're still implying the things stated above.

Rocks or a very small amount of incidental damage is a common occurrence. I'm not implying the Landorus user has perfect prediction, but I think it's fair to say that Rotom-W is not a consistent check to Landorus. You need to rely on prediction or Focus Blast misses. That plan can quickly go awry.

Even if we assume the Landorus user cannot get rocks down, we all know that U-turn is his trump card, and will then put Rotom-W into 2HKO range the next time he's in.

 

[Pocket]

Aerra, I don't have Rotom-W anymore, but I still have Landorus well covered in my team without really trying. Latias and Blissey are strong answers to Landorus. Specially defensive Skarmory can put some chip damage with Drill Peck while Starmie or Scarf Tar finish Landorus off, etc.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Landorus has as counters: Celebi, specially defensive Jellicent, Slowking, Latias, Latios, Gyarados, bulky Rotom-W, specially defensive Skarmory, specially defensive Bronzong, Mandibuzz, Gengar, Cresselia, Blissey, and Chansey. Tell me you're lacking in counters. We can go into endless arguments about how x is not a perfect counter but in reality each of these Pokemon will work almost all of the time.

I'm sorry but, I don't think you understand the term "counter". A Pokemon that counters another Pokemon, can switch in easily without the fear of being 2HKOd, and force out the opposing Pokemon, or effortlessy wall it / KO it. None of these Pokemon to me class as a counter to Landorus-I, and most of them are shaky checks at best.

Celebi is screwed by U-turn
Jellicent is 2HKO'd by Earth Power
Running SlowKing is just showing how threatening Landorus-I, and it's still getting 2HKO'd after SR.
Lati@s is screwed by U-turn
Gyarados is 2HKO'd by Psychic, but I would call Gyarados a decent check, since hardly anyone is running Psychic Landorus-I, as well as it's not 2HKO'd by Landorus-I's over moves
Rotom-W. I think GinjaNinja goes into more detail on why this isn't a counter.
Skarmory - 2HKO'd
Bronzong has a 25% chance of being 2HKO'd after SR. A decent check if Bronzong has received no other damage (which is unlikely because Bronzong lacks reliable recovery.
Mandibuzz has a 30% chance of being 2HKO'd. A decent check, but you're running a specific counter and it still has a chance of being 2HKO'd. Doesn't that just show howmuch of a monster Landorus-I is to stall?
Gengar is 2HKO'd by HP ice
Cresselia is a great counter to Landorus-I, but again, outside of countering Landorus-I it's un-viable, which shows that it's having a pretty big impact on stall teams.
Chansey and Blissey are decent checks, but are both 2HKO'd with a little bit of residual damage.

So, from this, we have one counter to Landorus-I, and like 4 checks?

Also, please don't bring up that the Landorus-I player needs perfect prediction, or Focus Blast's accuracy, since they shouldn't be taken into account. If you're "counter" to Landorus-I is relying on a 70% accuracy move to miss, it's not a counter.

 

[MikeDawg]

"Run Offense" is not a feasible way to check lando

I don't know how many people have justified its use by saying "it can't really sweep because i run HO so it can't set up"

The sheer fact that offense is the only playstyle that doesn't struggle very much with lando, and thus reduces any other playstyle's viability, is even more reason to ban it as it only further centralizes the meta around hard and fast hitters.

And if you are running an offense team, what exactly are you going to do when u-turn lando comes in? Between ground+elec immune, fighting resist, u-turn/volt switch, etc it is not nearly as difficult to find a switch in opprotunity (except against true ho, and if you believe that a meta that heavily favors skarm+5 sweepers is good than by all means, vote to keep it) as it is made out to be

 

[Pocket]

MikeDawg, my experience in playing stall contradicts your statement - Landorus was readily handled by stall. I didn't even need to add "niche" mons to check Landorus - I just used the traditional defensive mons that wall shit, including Landorus.

Have you actually run an effective stall team? Or are you just drawing conclusions via theorymon / word-of-mouth?

So this whole notion of "Landorus destroys an entire playstyle" is quite wrong n_n; you don't need to run offense to beat Landorus.

EDIT: of course, I'm basing my conclusion off of battles against fellow competent tiering contributors, who laddered to obtain reqs. I may be better than most of the TCs with reqs, but the presence of Landorus did not allow such players to defeat me, ergo skill still trumped over whatever "broken" things that Landorus can do.

 

[-Sparkbeat-]

Couple of things. Firstly, if this was DPP then yes, I would argue that this point holds water, because its tremendously hard to see your counters. However BW has given us team preview, thus its very, very simple for me to see what checks my Landorus, and what you can and will switch into it. In addition, its not at all tricky for me to rig situations such as bringing in Landorus-I on a Ferrothorn for free, letting me spam Focus Blast (im not losing health from LO) while your Rotom-W loses a truckload of health.

Secondary in my experience I never really found myself forced to use Focus Blast: I would tend to jut use U-Turn, force it to take the U-Turn + SR (and lets assume SSs active to counter leftovers) and I still get to force Rotom-W out freely with my counter AND you cannot pain split off your health, gradually weakening it for Landorus-I. (Imagine how fucked you would be if I decided to bring in a Pursuiter to cripple you even more if Landorus could 'sweep' with Rotom-W out of the picture.) As well as this, you are limited in bringing in Rotom-W on much else (ie Keldeo) in case residual damage puts you over the cap. This is why the Tar / Keldeo / Landorus-I core is so frustrating to deal with, because Landorus-I and Keldeo share similar counters letting you easily overwelm them.

The point of this post isn't to say "Landorus-I has no counters" because thats just not true. What im trying to say is that the "Focus Miss" argument is just bullshit since you are ignoring the risk vs reward system (ie if bringing in Rotom-W is your BEST move then im prolly going to Focus Blast you) as well as Landorus-I freely being able to spam U-Turn, chipping away at your health until just one Focus Blast will KO, or I can Pursuit trap you, if if you can no longer check Landorus-I + Keldeo, or whatever. I have never ever been in a situation where I have been vulnerable to SDef Rotom-W, using Landorus-I, since it was extremely easy to cripple or otherwise beat then.

Yes, all that you're saying is true. I was mainly referring to the use of Rotom-W on the stall team Pocket brought up (When it still had Rotom-W) when there are 2 or 3 possible switch ins to Landorus, therefore putting more pressure on the Landorus-I player if he is not running U-Turn. But yes, I agree with you that Rotom-W itself is not a surefire counter to Landorus-I.

 

[phantom]

-snip-

I agree completely, there's a lot of common sense right here. I'd also like to mention that Lando-I is frequently paired with Tyranitar who not all Pursuit traps that one counter (Cresselia), but can go the extra mile in providing residual damage that makes it far too easy to wear down the likes of Slowking, Jellicent, Gyarados, and Celebi. Not to mention that Tyranitar can even trap those threats as well (bar Gyarados)! It's not like trapping Gyarados even matters, it's weak to SR, exploitable to residual damage, and lacks reliable recovery. Idek why Mandibuzz was even mentioned when that shit isn't even good in OU, much less viable. When you're looking in the context of the Lando/Ttar/Keldeo core, Landorus essentially has no counters, just because everything is just so easy to beat anyway. It has checks, but one false move and that's it. Not to mention that the few things would even bother switching into it that aren't weak to Ttar (SpD Skarmory is 2HKod by Choice Band Stone Edge so don't even start) lack reliable recovery and are just ridiculously easy to wear down.

 

[MikeDawg]

I'm sorry, MikeDawg, but my experience in playing stall contradicts your statement - Landorus was readily handled by stall. I didn't even need to add "niche" mons to check Landorus - I just used the traditional defensive mons that wall shit, including Landorus.

So this whole notion of "Landorus destroys an entire playstyle" is quite wrong n_n; you don't need to run offense to beat Landorus.

Keep in mind though, Pocket, the difference in skill level of you and the vast majority of even competent battlers. It truly does need to be played around (and thereby left up to prediction/guessing to an extent) considering it really can't be walled. Bliss/chans can be 2hkod (by unstabbed coverage move...), spdef zapdos is rock weak, rotom-w is only good once, amoongus is 2hkod, slowking can be 2hkod, etc.

If you aren't outright outspeeding it, you need to manuever around it and considering it is the one applying the pressure, with two equally skilled players the lando player were most likely come out on top. (Not to mention how easily u-turn can basically invalidate any good predictions)

And if you choose to look at it alongside ttar, most of its checks can simply be pursuited (even the non psychic ones) for the sake of putting them in ko range due to how iffy they all are individually anyway

Essentially, it isn't an end-all-be-all stall killer (in fact, slightly less bulky, but still somewhat slow, balance teams probably suffer more), it can be played around, but this was the case (to an even greater extent for some!) for many of the past bans from my understanding.

 

[Jukain]

Hi, I definitely understand the word counter -- a Pokemon that can switch in a reasonable amount of times to the majority if not all of a Pokemon's move set. I'm saying the truth. I can agree on the U-turn targets, though Landorus often runs RP or even Psychic.

Cresselia is a great counter to Landorus-I, but again, outside of countering Landorus-I it's un-viable, which shows that it's having a pretty big impact on stall teams.
Chansey and Blissey are decent checks, but are both 2HKO'd with a little bit of residual damage.

Wrong on both counts. Cresselia is a damn good wall that you shouldn't underestimate. It's near impossible to OHKO and is insanely difficult to break in sun. Blissey and Chansey aren't getting 2HKOed by anything unless you're running max max bold which is stupid. They have Softboiled and Wish; they're the last Pokemon I'd define as "easily worn down".

And yes, I can say that the Landorus user requires perfect prediction as an argument. You're assuming that the Landorus user plays perfectly and that the [insert example Landorus counter here] user is stupid. This assumption has no basis. Anyone smart is going to bait and lure certain attacks. Landorus has U-turn, RP, or occasionally Psychoc. All of which are extremely easy to scout for.


252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 169-200 (43 - 50.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 175-207 (43.31 - 51.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So with Leftovers recovery these are 3HKOs. Additionally, you're assuming Landorus went straight for the EP. Also, Slowking is a solid Pokemon. No need to bash it.

0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.99%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

So much for "boned by U-turn".

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 168-198 (47.59 - 56.09%) -- 22.27% chance to 2HKO

You can run a bit more bulk to avoid the 2HKO (which I do) and have a flawless counter.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 166-196 (39.24 - 46.33%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Where are you getting this 2HKO from? And no it's not a specific counter, it's a generally bulky mon that can handle a pretty decent range of threats.

Gengar is 2HKO'd by HP ice

This is true, but Landorus doesn't exactly go around spamming HP Ice. I'd say Earth Power is the spammed move. Either way, you force Landorus out. With a mere two turns of Black Sludge recovery you can survive one more. Your Gengar should be running HP Ice so it can OHKO Landorus and handle Dragon-type threats.

I'll concede that the bulky Waters and Skarmory are simply great checks, as well as Celebi, but you still have quite the list. A counter isn't something that can beat a Pokemon in every possible scenario -- it's simply one that can take 1-2 hits and respond with something while being able to come in another time.

It's not all about taking hits -- if you can take one hit and KO or force out Landorus it's the same thing as beating it. In fact, you are beating it. Due to its flaws, which Pocket pointed out extremely well, Landorus is relatively easy to force out and check.

@Icecream: Cresselia too can have team support. As can the other Pokemon. Dugtrio says hi. Also Landorus needs to be broken in the context of itself. I know we don't operate in a vacuum but you can't ban a Pokemon for being difficult to handle in a three Pokemon core.

EDIT: oh and I forgot zapdos

 

[MikeDawg]

I hope you realize how many of those 3hkos become easy 2hkos when you add in just one stealth rock switch in (hell... What you consider the best counters are stealth rock weak) and even sand or spikes. Having by far the specially bulkiest mons in the game get 2hkod after a teensy bit of residual damage by an unboosted unstabbed move is not exactly showcasing how "weak" it is.

Also, you can't just say "some run rp or psychic so it's okay" when the generally regarded "best" set is u-turn (considering rp is so prepared for... Think back to when special landorus was new and how easily it swept for a bit of insight on how it helped changed the meta)

And latias taking 50% does indeed "bone" it... Especially considering the fact that a counter is now switching in (probs ttar)

 

[phantom]

@Icecream: Cresselia too can have team support. As can the other Pokemon. Dugtrio says hi. Also Landorus needs to be broken in the context of itself. I know we don't operate in a vacuum but you can't ban a Pokemon for being difficult to handle in a three Pokemon core.

I don't agree with that. This isn't 1vs1, it's 6vs6. When determining whether or not something is broken, you have to look at how it influences the metagame as a whole. Ignoring that is just silly imo. Also, I do acknowledge that Cresselia can have teammates, but it isn't very easy to switch Dugtrio into Tyranitar (especially when hazard are out). It has to be a direct predication on your part, which again, pressures the person defending against Landorus to make all the right plays. This isn't really a plausible situation, seeing has how Dugtrio doesn't even OHKO Ttar with Earthquake.

252 Atk Dugtrio Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-258 (63.74 - 75.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

4 Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Dugtrio: 192-226 (90.99 - 107.1%) -- 43.75% chance to OHKO

Minimum investment TTar isn't 2HKod by EQ, while in return minimum attack TTar can OHKO Dugtrio.

At one point, Cresselia WILL have to stay in and recover off damage from Lando, as Stealth Rock + Residual Damage + Random Attack will wear it down FAST. That's when TTar can make its move and OHKO Cresselia. And if Lando has U-turn, guess what? Prediction isn't even needed on your opponent's part, as TTar will take it out or at the very least snatch momentum and simultaneously doing up to 60%+ damage on your Dugtrio.

 

[shrang]

Interesting thing to note about the "U-turn Lando vs stall team" argument is how people are throwing around that U-turn is completely a risk-free move. It really isn't. Yes, you could U-turn on the Forretress instead of Earth Powering it, but you just lost 22.5% of your health (if we count SR), and most likely just gave the Forretress a free spin, or a free layer of Spikes, or whatever. Yes, I know you could just straight up kill it, but please don't make it look like U-turn is risk-free.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Hi, I definitely understand the word counter -- a Pokemon that can switch in a reasonable amount of times to the majority if not all of a Pokemon's move set. I'm saying the truth. I can agree on the U-turn targets, though Landorus often runs RP or even Psychic.


And yes, I can say that the Landorus user requires perfect prediction as an argument. You're assuming that the Landorus user plays perfectly and that the [insert example Landorus counter here] user is stupid. This assumption has no basis. Anyone smart is going to bait and lure certain attacks. Landorus has U-turn, RP, or occasionally Psychoc. All of which are extremely easy to scout for.


252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Slowking: 169-200 (43 - 50.89%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Jellicent: 175-207 (43.31 - 51.23%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

So with Leftovers recovery these are 3HKOs. Additionally, you're assuming Landorus went straight for the EP. Also, Slowking is a solid Pokemon. No need to bash it.

0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.99%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

So much for "boned by U-turn".

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Psychic vs. 88 HP / 0 SpD Gyarados: 168-198 (47.59 - 56.09%) -- 22.27% chance to 2HKO

You can run a bit more bulk to avoid the 2HKO (which I do) and have a flawless counter.

252+ SpA Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus Focus Blast vs. 248 HP / 252+ SpD Mandibuzz: 166-196 (39.24 - 46.33%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

Where are you getting this 2HKO from? And no it's not a specific counter, it's a generally bulky mon that can handle a pretty decent range of threats.


This is true, but Landorus doesn't exactly go around spamming HP Ice. I'd say Earth Power is the spammed move. Either way, you force Landorus out. With a mere two turns of Black Sludge recovery you can survive one more. Your Gengar should be running HP Ice so it can OHKO Landorus and handle Dragon-type threats.

I'll concede that the bulky Waters and Skarmory are simply great checks, as well as Celebi, but you still have quite the list. A counter isn't something that can beat a Pokemon in every possible scenario -- it's simply one that can take 1-2 hits and respond with something while being able to come in another time.

It's not all about taking hits -- if you can take one hit and KO or force out Landorus it's the same thing as beating it. In fact, you are beating it. Due to its flaws, which Pocket pointed out extremely well, Landorus is relatively easy to force out and check.

@Icecream: Cresselia too can have team support. As can the other Pokemon. Dugtrio says hi. Also Landorus needs to be broken in the context of itself. I know we don't operate in a vacuum but you can't ban a Pokemon for being difficult to handle in a three Pokemon core.

EDIT: oh and I forgot zapdos

Okay, those Slowking calcs are bullshit, because you're not factoring SR or sand damage, which are standard battle conditions when facing Landorus-I. Factoring SR and sand, they are easily 2HKO'd. Also why wouldn't the Landorus-I go for Earth Power, it's the most reliable attack, and there aren't many downsides from just spamming Earth Power, but this leads to prediction and team mates factoring in, which goes both ways.

0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.99%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

How is this not boned by U-turn? Lol. It's going to 2HKO it with Sand and / or SR, and the Landorus-I user is holding a load of momentum, while you're left with a weakened Landorus-I check, which will then be forced out by the incoming switch.

Your calcs in general are not an accurate representation of what would happen in actual game play, since you're not factoring SR damage, which is considered by nearly every competitve battler to be a standard condition. Stop being bias.

You may be right that Landorus-I doesn't go around spamming HP ice, but if you're best check to Landorus-I is Gengar, then there's going to be times where people are going to predict Gengar to come in and HP ice. Prediction goes both ways, and I can't emphasize this enough.

No, a counter is something that should be able to stay around for the majority of the game to counter said threat. You're basically calling Latios a counter to Landorus-I by this definition, which is a joke. And yes, with stall, it is all about taking hits, since Landorus-I is bulky enough to take a hit from stall teams pretty easily and 2HKO everything in sight.

Also, for Zapdos

252 SpA Life Orb Landorus Hidden Power Ice vs. 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos: 146-172 (38.12 - 44.9%) -- 80.08% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Not a counter. Barely a check if you come in after something is KOed.

 

[MikeDawg]

Interesting thing to note about the "U-turn Lando vs stall team" argument is how people are throwing around that U-turn is completely a risk-free move. It really isn't. Yes, you could U-turn on the Forretress instead of Earth Powering it, but you just lost 22.5% of your health (if we count SR), and most likely just gave the Forretress a free spin, or a free layer of Spikes, or whatever. Yes, I know you could just straight up kill it, but please don't make it look like U-turn is risk-free.

If you are playong against a slower, more defensive team though, why bother u-turning? There is no harm in spamming earth power because if something like zapdos comes in you can outspeed and u-turn out, switching while preventing any double swith shenanigans, putting the opponent in a tough situation.

 

[BKC]

that list of "counters" -- as in something that can reliably stand up to lando -- outside of spdef bronzong and chansey [the latter of which only functions on rain/sun stall] by jukain is very, very wrong.

celebi loses to u-turn.

specially defensive jellicent is inferior to physically defensive as a whole and can't even take two earth powers unless it's at absolute full hp [and even then it's sketchy].

slowking is an alright counter but u-turn into ttar and it's fucked.

both lati twins get fucked by a u-turn into ttar. latios isn't too great at switching into hp ice either.

gyarados is sr weak and can't reliably heal itself.

rotom-w gets 2hkoed by focus blast.

spdef skarm gets 2hkoed by focus blast.

mandibuzz is sr weak and isn't that good of a pkmn.

gengar gets 2hkoed by hp ice, ohkoed by the odd psychic [sometimes used and yes it is a good alternative] and owned by a u-turn into a scarftar [which is just as common as cbtar, if not more, at the higher levels of play].

cress gets fucked by a u-turn into ttar.

blissey doesn't stand up to focus blast too well and isn't very good in the metagame right now, especially because a u-turn into cbtar also messes its day up.

zapdos can't switch in if sr is up.

if something needs to be broken by itself, let's unban tornadus-t, genesect, and mainly excadrill.

 

[shrang]

If you are playong against a slower, more defensive team though, why bother u-turning? There is no harm in spamming earth power because if something like zapdos comes in you can outspeed and u-turn out, switching while preventing any double swith shenanigans, putting the opponent in a tough situation.

It's not like everything is slower than Landorus, nor is everything just easily beaten by Landorus. If you've built a team where you have one counter to Landorus and it easily get U-turned on without prediction, I'm sorry, you've just made a bad team. This is another one of my main annoyances. People assume that the Landorus user has every move at its disposal and has perfect prediction. They also assume that Landorus has the support of a core like Tyranitar + Keldeo, while the defender only has one counter. Then, they come around and tell me that I'm looking at things in a vacuum. What a joke.

EDIT: MikeDawg this isn't directed at you personally, just a general gripe I have about the whole pro-banning party as a whole.

 

[Nysyr]

Interesting thing to note about the "U-turn Lando vs stall team" argument is how people are throwing around that U-turn is completely a risk-free move. It really isn't. Yes, you could U-turn on the Forretress instead of Earth Powering it, but you just lost 22.5% of your health (if we count SR), and most likely just gave the Forretress a free spin, or a free layer of Spikes, or whatever. Yes, I know you could just straight up kill it, but please don't make it look like U-turn is risk-free.

Forry ain't gonna do much since it can't even spin reliably against the current favourite hazard setter which is Garchomp, so your sturdy is probably gonna be smashed and you WILL be ohked unless you're spdef Forry...

The player would be stupid to stay in unless U-Turn was already scouted, or you run HP ice and have sturdy intact. RP Lando-I sweep brb.

Repeat infinite for all said checks to Lando-I. LO stalling is a weak argument; 'bout as weak as Focus Blast accuracy when Lando-I just switches out and tries again.



Then a random Banded Lando-I comes along and messes your day up.

Edit: Made it look less flame-ish (not intended to be)

 

[Jukain]

I'm sorry -- I was just kind of spitting out names of Pokemon that could deal with Landorus. A more appropriate term is "reliably check". And I still say that these Pokemon can reliably check it. Additionally, I don't see why you're assuming Stealth Rock will be up against a STEALTH ROCK WEAK POKEMON that is likely paired with A SPINNER. I also don't see how Gyarados isn't a counter, as it can 1) take a hit 2) take another hit AND set up and 3) OHKO Landorus. Stealth Rock isn't doing anything even if it is up. Cresselia is often on teams that can trap and kill Tyranitar with Dugtrio and ones that have some form of hazard control. It tends to win.

0- Atk Life Orb Landorus U-turn vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 156-185 (48.9 - 57.99%) -- 95.7% chance to 2HKO

That's not boned because you can Roost up. If you're running any more bulk like SubCM it doesn't even always do over half accounting for Stealth Rock damage. Also you can't exactly 2HKO with U-turn...

shrang's post is right on the dot also

 

[ShootingStarmie]

I'm sorry -- I was just kind of spitting out names of Pokemon that could deal with Landorus. A more appropriate term is "reliably check". And I still say that these Pokemon can reliably check it. Additionally, I don't see why you're assuming Stealth Rock will be up against a STEALTH ROCK WEAK POKEMON that is likely paired with A SPINNER. I also don't see how Gyarados isn't a counter, as it can 1) take a hit 2) take another hit AND set up and 3) OHKO Landorus. Stealth Rock isn't doing anything even if it is up. Cresselia is often on teams that can trap and kill Tyranitar with Dugtrio and ones that have some form of hazard control. It tends to win.


That's not boned because you can Roost up. If you're running any more bulk like SubCM it doesn't even always do over half accounting for Stealth Rock damage. Also you can't exactly 2HKO with U-turn...

shrang's post is right on the dot also

Like I've said before, SR is assumed by nearly every competitive battler, and to not assume it's up is just stupid. "Oh SR is up, now I have no counters to Landorus-I". Is this really your thought process? Gyarados isn't a counter, and I've already talked about this, I don't want to keep repeating myself if you don't get the message the first time. Yes, Cresselia is paired up with Pokemon that can trap Tyranitar, but Landorus is paired up Pokemon that can trap all of it's checks. I don't think mentioning team mates is a very good argument because of this reason. And again, I don't know how many times I've said this but prediction goes both ways, meaning Dugtrio isn't going to always be trapping Tyranitar, just like Tyranitar isn't always going to be trapping Landorus-I's checks (although, it's arguably much easier to trap Landorus-I's checks because of U-turn allowing Tyranitar a free switch in that requires no prediction). Also, Dugtrio can only trap Tyranitar if SR isn't up on the Dugtrio user's field, as EarthQuake fails to KO, where as Tyranitar easily KOs back, so it doesn't even reliably trap it and SR is assumed by nearly every competitive battler.

Also, you've having to waste a turn Roosting, and you probably won't get the chance to Roost, since after U-turn you're being forced out by the incoming switch. In this situation the Landorus-I user always has the advantage.

 

[shrang]

Forry ain't gonna do much since it can't even spin reliably against the current favourite hazard setter which is Garchomp, so your sturdy is probably gonna be smashed and you WILL be ohked unless you're spdef Forry...

The player would be stupid to stay in unless U-Turn was already scouted, or you run HP ice and have sturdy intact. RP Lando-I sweep brb.

Repeat infinite for all said checks to Lando-I. LO stalling is a weak argument; 'bout as weak as Focus Blast accuracy when Lando-I just switches out and tries again.



Then a random Banded Lando-I comes along and messes your day up.

Edit: Made it look less flame-ish (not intended to be)

Bolded sentence shows exactly what I was saying before. Are you really running U-turn and Rock Polish? See what I mean about pro-banners thinking that Landorus can run everything?

Anyway, another problem I'm having is why are people so big on stall breaking about U-turn Landorus-I these days? We unbanned Kyurem-B knowing full well what that thing would do to stall. We kept Wobbuffet and Gothitelle in the tier knowing full well what those can do to stall. Now before I get a retort saying that those mons aren't broken, I'm just saying that keeping the above does nothing but detriment stall, not that they were necessarily broken or not. So, why do we even care that Landorus-I is troubling stall now, especially since balance and offense have numerous ways of beating it without even trying? I thought we'd accepted that stall wasn't going to be an easy to run this generation a long, long time ago.

Even then, U-turn Lando isn't even THAT good at killing stall anyway. I know it works very well, but how much better does it do than you average joe stallbreaker anyway? It only has 331 Speed, slow as Stall is, you should have either at least 1) a Pokemon that outspeeds that (generally Latias), or 2) something that doesn't get killed by it very easily (eg Blissey, Jellicent, etc etc), or a combination of them. Hell, I just realised that ScarfTar (relatively useful on stall teams) can revenge kill U-turn Landorus. Just stick Ice Beam on it or something. It's not like anyone's going to see it coming. Lando can merrily think it's going on its way and boom it's dead to Ice Beam. You could say that RP Lando beats that, but that can't get past Latias, and Latias + ScarfTar isn't a bad gluing core in itself. You can say "well now you require 2 Pokemon to beat Landorus-I", but I'll just remind you all that you're using Tyranitar + Landorus to beat Latias, so I'm going to say that it's perfectly fair.

 

[ShootingStarmie]

Bolded sentence shows exactly what I was saying before. Are you really running U-turn and Rock Polish? See what I mean about pro-banners thinking that Landorus can run everything?

Anyway, another problem I'm having is why are people so big on stall breaking about U-turn Landorus-I these days? We unbanned Kyurem-B knowing full well what that thing would do to stall. We kept Wobbuffet and Gothitelle in the tier knowing full well what those can do to stall. Now before I get a retort saying that those mons aren't broken, I'm just saying that keeping the above does nothing but detriment stall, not that they were necessarily broken or not. So, why do we even care that Landorus-I is troubling stall now, especially since balance and offense have numerous ways of beating it without even trying? I thought we'd accepted that stall wasn't going to be an easy to run this generation a long, long time ago.

Even then, U-turn Lando isn't even THAT good at killing stall anyway. I know it works very well, but how much better does it do than you average joe stallbreaker anyway? It only has 331 Speed, slow as Stall is, you should have either at least 1) a Pokemon that outspeeds that (generally Latias), or 2) something that doesn't get killed by it very easily (eg Blissey, Jellicent, etc etc), or a combination of them. Hell, I just realised that ScarfTar (relatively useful on stall teams) can revenge kill U-turn Landorus. Just stick Ice Beam on it or something. It's not like anyone's going to see it coming. Lando can merrily think it's going on its way and boom it's dead to Ice Beam. You could say that RP Lando beats that, but that can't get past Latias, and Latias + ScarfTar isn't a bad gluing core in itself. You can say "well now you require 2 Pokemon to beat Landorus-I", but I'll just remind you all that you're using Tyranitar + Landorus to beat Latias, so I'm going to say that it's perfectly fair.

While I feel you're making pretty good arguements, I think your suggestion for using Scarf Tyranitar + Latias isn't a great way to deal with Landorus-I. Firstly, Tyranitar cannot switch into Landorus, and switching Tyranitar into a Landorus-I after it's killed something is just saying to the Landorus-I player "My Tyranitar is scarfed! Switch out!". While you could predict this and Pursuit, it isn't exactly the best way to deal with Landorus-I. I can see it working in some situations, but it's not reliable.

Also, I never agreed with bringing Kyurem-B into OU, but there's that I guess.

 

[Nysyr]

Bolded sentence shows exactly what I was saying before. Are you really running U-turn and Rock Polish? See what I mean about pro-banners thinking that Landorus can run everything?

Anyway, another problem I'm having is why are people so big on stall breaking about U-turn Landorus-I these days? We unbanned Kyurem-B knowing full well what that thing would do to stall. We kept Wobbuffet and Gothitelle in the tier knowing full well what those can do to stall. Now before I get a retort saying that those mons aren't broken, I'm just saying that keeping the above does nothing but detriment stall, not that they were necessarily broken or not. So, why do we even care that Landorus-I is troubling stall now, especially since balance and offense have numerous ways of beating it without even trying? I thought we'd accepted that stall wasn't going to be an easy to run this generation a long, long time ago.

Even then, U-turn Lando isn't even THAT good at killing stall anyway. I know it works very well, but how much better does it do than you average joe stallbreaker anyway? It only has 331 Speed, slow as Stall is, you should have either at least 1) a Pokemon that outspeeds that (generally Latias), or 2) something that doesn't get killed by it very easily (eg Blissey, Jellicent, etc etc), or a combination of them. Hell, I just realised that ScarfTar (relatively useful on stall teams) can revenge kill U-turn Landorus. Just stick Ice Beam on it or something. It's not like anyone's going to see it coming. Lando can merrily think it's going on its way and boom it's dead to Ice Beam. You could say that RP Lando beats that, but that can't get past Latias, and Latias + ScarfTar isn't a bad gluing core in itself. You can say "well now you require 2 Pokemon to beat Landorus-I", but I'll just remind you all that you're using Tyranitar + Landorus to beat Latias, so I'm going to say that it's perfectly fair.

Who said anything about both? Its about you predicting which set HE is running, hence why I said you would have had to scout the U-Turn.

You have 4 (3 really) options in that scenario, assume RP and react accordingly, assume FB/EP, and assume U-turn; HP ice is there but that's mostly irrelevant and depends on your team (HP ice is pointless to click as he outspeeds everything it hits, and lati@s are pursuit bait for TTar unless its LO/specs surf with full SpA invest. Surf means scizor pursuits you on revenge since no HP fire etc etc).

Without scouting you are 33% likely to pick the right move without factoring in skill (leave skill out of the argument please, we assume equal skill). Even with the set scouted, you have a 50/50 chance to predict the right move.

This is even before risk/reward. Factor that in, if he just clicks EP he can try again later, U-turn? Bit o damage and maybe some spikes that don't even hurt him anyways. Sure you could have Volt Switched on the predicted switch, but that is statistically a retarded move since if he stays in (remember I said not scouted) you picked the one move that hurts you the most if he decides to RP, and that was on a 33% chance you banked on. If he RPed and on your team you don't have Cress, or a healthy lati@s you are screwed (Mamoswine means something is dead and hes just revenging).

Rinse/repeat for every other mon he gets in on and threatens.

The pressure is on the defensive player, not the one who just sent Lando-I in.


We ain't even touching TTar here, that's just Lando-I alone.

 

[popprocks]

My personal grievance lies with the giant lists of calculations being used as proof that Landorus can beat all of its checks. That kind of evidence is extremely impractical. Many of those defensive checks take very little, or are actually immune, to two of Landorus' three attacking moves on a set. Rotom-W takes nothing from HP Ice or Earth Power. Gengar takes nothing from Earth Power or Focus Blast. Jellicent takes nothing from HP Ice or Focus Blast.

And yet, all of these pokemon are "2HKO'd." Are they really? Maybe if you pick the correct move every time, which is quite a feat when you're using attacks that have so many resists and immunities (and 70% accuracy). You're going to end up with some failed attacks. You're going to lose momentum sometimes. You're going to lose a Pokemon sometimes because you wanted to make a big boy prediction to kill a check. Landorus doesn't live in a magical land where one button 2HKOs the entire metagame.

shrang is exactly correct. Pro-ban users often assume perfect prediction, especially when claiming calcs for coverage moves prove Landorus is uncounterable. Actually playing the game doesn't work out so cleanly. Landorus won't 2HKO everything just because it can in theory. The checks can work fine if you play smart. More creative options are still waiting to be found.

 

[Goutland]

Totally agree with popprocks. Landorus often requires a ton of prediction to use because of its odd coverage where only one move hits your opponent hard. You can often force it use a certain move to gain a free pivot switch to force it out.

Example: Landorus comes in on my (already revealed life orb) Salamence. It's forced to HP ice or it's going to die to outrage/draco. That gives me a free switch to Rotom-W, Bronzong, etc. The "big boy prediction" is almost never worth it.

It really doesn't make sense to assume perfect prediction because situations like this that are easy to force whether you're using offense, stall, or balanced.

I'd also like to say that Cress + Dugtrio + Starmie/Latias/Latios on a sun team is pretty much a guaranteed way to beat the almighty core of Ttar + Keldeo + Lando-I. If Ttar comes in to trap either of your psychics, Ttar gets trapped by Dugtrio and the other one (preferrably Cress) can now go to town on the other team.