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to A
Mega Bro is probably the most consistent answer to the most dangerous offensive core at the moment, being Cinderace and Dracovish (AceVish), even though it does have to watch out for banded crunch's. Additionally, it is able to actually check Gliscor, unlike its pre-mega counterpart, and can fire off future sights that are even able to OHKO Pex, after a small amount of chip. Unfortunately, it is not able to punish the U-turns and Fishious Rends fired off by Ace and Vish with Rocky Helmet Chip, unlike its Pre-Mega counterpart, and once it Mega Evolves, it is left with a drastically worse ability, which means it should still be below Slowbro. Additionally, since its higher viability is largely in part due to Dracovish, in my opinion, it should be joining Mega Slowbro in A tier. We all know how deadly this thing is, so I won't bother going into detail, but in short, Funny Fish and Funny Bunny have very few consistent counterplay.
to A
Mega Bro is probably the most consistent answer to the most dangerous offensive core at the moment, being Cinderace and Dracovish (AceVish), even though it does have to watch out for banded crunch's. Additionally, it is able to actually check Gliscor, unlike its pre-mega counterpart, and can fire off future sights that are even able to OHKO Pex, after a small amount of chip. Unfortunately, it is not able to punish the U-turns and Fishious Rends fired off by Ace and Vish with Rocky Helmet Chip, unlike its Pre-Mega counterpart, and once it Mega Evolves, it is left with a drastically worse ability, which means it should still be below Slowbro. Additionally, since its higher viability is largely in part due to Dracovish, in my opinion, it should be joining Mega Slowbro in A tier. We all know how deadly this thing is, so I won't bother going into detail, but in short, Funny Fish and Funny Bunny have very few consistent counterplay.
I would say that title goes to Alomomola but even that is pretty helpless against sub variants or CB in the rain (which is a thing btw). From my time using Mega bro I think it's pretty underwhelming in practice. Regenerator is part of what makes it so good. It doesn't really counter AceVish long term because U-turn and repeated Fishious Rends will overwhelm it eventually. Personally I think Dracovish is a stupid mon with high reward low risk use. It's got good defensive typing with only 2 weaknesses with aren't really the top most spammed type moves and passable bulk. I hope the council considers a possible suspect for this thing because this thing is just ridiculous. an OHKO or 2HKO machine on like 99% of the tier after rocks is just really dumb.
Moltres has a ton of desirable traits that can now be taken advantage of thanks to Heavy Duty Boots. Being the best counter to Cinderace in the game has its advantages. Not only this but it beats other top physical attackers and walls on its own such as Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Mega-Lopunny, and generally any steel or grass type. It's one the best pokemon in the game to punish u-turn spam popular with many team variants thanks to flame body's devastating effects. It can even pivot itself with its own u-turn and it finds many opportunities to able to switch into other walls such as Heatran, Non-Stone Edge Landerous-Therian, and others. It gets access to both defog and reliable recovery in roost. It's also pretty fast for a wall at base 90 speed. Its flamethrowers even uninvested hit fairly hard reaching 286 special attack without EV's which is pretty scary for some pokemon to switch into meaning Moltres isn't going to passive either thanks to that and u-turn. It can honestly switch into just about any physical attacker as long as they don't have rock or water coverage.
Edit: I should also mention how good this thing pairs with Seismitoad since they both wall what the other can't. Most notably Dracovish for Moltres and any grass type for Seismitoad but also Seismitoad covers electric, water, and rock weaknesses well.
Moltres has a ton of desirable traits that can now be taken advantage of thanks to Heavy Duty Boots. Being the best counter to Cinderace in the game has its advantages. Not only this but it beats other top physical attackers and walls on its own such as Ferrothorn, Aegislash, Mega-Lopunny, and generally any steel or grass type. It's one the best pokemon in the game to punish u-turn spam popular with many team variants thanks to flame body's devastating effects. It can even pivot itself with its own u-turn and it finds many opportunities to able to switch into other walls such as Heatran, Non-Stone Edge Landerous-Therian, and others. It gets access to both defog and reliable recovery in roost. It's also pretty fast for a wall at base 90 speed. Its flamethrowers even uninvested hit fairly hard reaching 286 special attack without EV's which is pretty scary for some pokemon to switch into meaning Moltres isn't going to passive either thanks to that and u-turn. It can honestly switch into just about any physical attacker as long as they don't have rock or water coverage.
Edit: I should also mention how good this thing pairs with Seismitoad since they both wall what the other can't. Most notably Dracovish for Moltres and any grass type for Seismitoad but also Seismitoad covers electric, water, and rock weaknesses well.
Time to pick apart some points.
Heavy duty boots is a good thing for moltres but knock off is very common. Ferrothorn kartana and mega mawile carry it for example. Also, heatran and aegislash just toxic it. It's also not the best cinderace counter either because hippowdon and baneful bunker toxapex exist. It also can't stop cinderace from clicking U-turn and bringing in dracovish. If you want to spread burns with flame body, volcarona does that better. Having base 90 speed also isn't super good because for a wall speed doesn't really matter. Also zapdos is both faster and less passive. Being a good partner for seismitoad also isn't anything notable because seis kinda sucks. Even if you want it as a defogger it sucks because it dies to landorus and garchomp and heatran toxics it and it can't do anything to clefable.
Moltres has a ton of desirable traits that can now be taken advantage of thanks to Heavy Duty Boots. Being the best counter to Cinderace in the game has its advantages.
This thing hardly checks Cinderace because Gunk Shot hits it really hard and the poison will just make it useless, sure your making it 4 pp but whats the point if you cant even deal with it? and lets not talk about how it gets brutally killed if it switches into a BU
This thing hardly checks Cinderace because Gunk Shot hits it really hard and the poison will just make it useless, sure your making it 4 pp but whats the point if you cant even deal with it? and lets not talk about how it gets brutally killed if it switches into a BU
Not even to mention Darkium Z either. I personally think ace is one of the hardest mons to build around rn and I think once vish is gone, ace will be suspecting eventually, but for now I think one of the better "checks" is probably hippo, which can also be chipped by ferro's spikes. Slowbro deals with it decently too but loses to BU Darkium, similarly to pex but loses to BU Zen headbutt sets. Phys Def Gastro is a pretty good check too as it can clear smog but still takes a chunk from +1 darkium, but the best thing about gastrodon is it also acts as a vish check. Kommo-o is a good check to non zen headbutt variants, gliscor does ok against boots ace but loses to BU. Lando is also an ok check because ace lacks a super effective hit on it+intimidate.
I think all in all, ace does have checks however they are all pretty inconsistent checks because most of them will lose to some sort of variant of ace. I probably accidently left out a check but I think I listed the most prominent.
Not even to mention Darkium Z either. I personally think ace is one of the hardest mons to build around rn and I think once vish is gone, ace will be suspecting eventually, but for now I think one of the better "checks" is probably hippo, which can also be chipped by ferro's spikes. Slowbro deals with it decently too but loses to BU Darkium, similarly to pex but loses to BU Zen headbutt sets. Phys Def Gastro is a pretty good check too as it can clear smog but still takes a chunk from +1 darkium, but the best thing about gastrodon is it also acts as a vish check. Kommo-o is a good check to non zen headbutt variants, gliscor does ok against boots ace but loses to BU. Lando is also an ok check because ace lacks a super effective hit on it+intimidate.
I think all in all, ace does have checks however they are all pretty inconsistent checks because most of them will lose to some sort of variant of ace. I probably accidently left out a check but I think I listed the most prominent.
Gliscor kinda loses to Cinderace if rocks are up or just force the roost because 4a Pyro Ball hits hard, Kommo-o is a nice check but its similar to what i said with Moltres, except that it does "Slightly" better agaisnt BU Ace (it dies but it can leave a toxic before dying) and 4a still Gunk Shots it and uses it for momentum.
Hippo is by far the most consistent way to deal with it but its hard to build around considering that water types are really hard to deal with and they are really common (the 1 button mon and the overrated frog) 4a Variants are 100% walled, the one thing ace could do its use pyro ball on the switch to scout the item and either switch or use a free U-Turn, or just simply not take a risk and predict that. BU is questionable, Cinderace is able to win in the long term, where Hippo might be chipped on BU Darkinium Z range (Talked with Solaros about this) Gastrodon is similar but with quite less bulk agaisnt it, not to mention that a non-spdef gastro is really abusable imo (btw physdef arent vish checks because vish banded outrage does like half)
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Volcarona A- ---> A/A+
Volcarona's biggest fear, rock types are rare in NatDex thanks to how common Landourous-T (Did I spell that right?) and Ash-Greninja are. Lack of teams utilizing stealth rocks allow it to use a life orb set, OHKOing many hazard setters as well (+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 788-928 (235.9 - 277.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
Volcarona A- ---> A/A+
Volcarona's biggest fear, rock types are rare in NatDex thanks to how common Landourous-T (Did I spell that right?) and Ash-Greninja are. Lack of teams utilizing stealth rocks allow it to use a life orb set, OHKOing many hazard setters as well (+1 252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Skarmory: 788-928 (235.9 - 277.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO)
This is just blatantly false. I don't disagree with a volcorona rise since it is pretty understated atm but saying there is a lack of teams using stealth rock is incorrect. It's probably the 1 thing all viable teams have in common. Also skarmory is mediocre atm . The matchup versus the most powerful hazard setter in heatran is really bad since it forces hidden power ground which forces even more 4mss
Edit: Also even if volcorona didn't require boots , z move is still better since it can force progress via sheer force
In case you're planning to make a final update before Crown Tundra, I have 2 nominations:
from A+ to S: Being the fastest viable Pokemon in National Dex, Dragapult is able to easily fuck any Bulky Offense to Hyper Offense team, and most Balances. After a Dragon Dance, revenge killing with a scarfer is impossible, even if Pult is Adamant. With Z-Moves available, it could break through offensive checks and walls it couldn't before, such as Toxapex, Clefable, Magearna, and Hippowdon. It also has Clear Body, meaning Lando-T can't even beat it. A M-Medicham Offense is instantly 6-0'd the moment it gets a DD off. This leads to 3 forms of counterplay: Pursuit-Trapping, Sucker Punch, and Unaware. The former two are extremely exploitable/unreliable, and the third pretty much loses if M-Mawile is present.
It could also run Specs, which is able to slowly whittle down Balances and instantly put a huge dent on Bulky Offenses to Hyper Offenses, though it has to be extra careful if Tyranitar is on the field. Its defensive typing makes it able to offensively soft-check Fires, Grasses, Waters, and Fighters, such as Volcarona, Cinderace (sucker is rare and is usually dropped for HJK) and M-Medicham, and it has enough bulk to do so. With how versatile & oppressive it is, and Urshifu being absent, I believe Dragapult should rise.
from A+ to A: Slowbro faces massive competitions from Toxapex and Tapu Fini as a bulky Water. As a physical Water, its typing make it weak to Bug, which makes U-Turn from Physical Attackers cancel out its Regenerator, so its forced to run Slack Off. Teleport and Scald are mandatory, so it has to choose between Ice Beam and Future Sight. Choosing the former means forgoing valuable offensive supports for mons like Magearna and Loppuny, and going with the latter means losing to attackers such as Garchomp. Its also very weak specially, inviting in attackers such as Ash-Greninja, Dragapult, and Hydreigon, which most of these can't come in on the other two bulky Waters. Dracovish also got banned, so it lost another purpose. A drop should represent this.
Even though slowbro lost a great partner its positive traits still outnumber its negatives because it checks most physical attackers,has teleport which allows it to slowly bring in a teammate which the others cannot do and it is the most offensive out of all them.
Even if I were to drop it not for the reasons you said.
Magearna and lopunny were never the main abusers of future sight, it was always cinderace and dracovish that abused future sight allowing dracovish to get a free kill even against something like full hp Bunker pex. It may invite in special attackers that you dont want to get a free switch it doesn't always have this issue of wasting momentum because teleport allows it to leave immediately and force out the threat before they get a spike/boost up with a teammate which something like toxapex cant always do.
(Replays at the end of the post) From UR to B-
As an unaware mon able to deal with Manaphy, i think it has a decent niche in stall teams. Surprisingly, it also deals with dragapult: it avoids the ko from ddart + Zghost, and pp stall it with spite. Unable to beat pyukumuku, it is basically forced to switch out, or fish for a crit. Also, if it want to stay in, it is forced to substitute to avoid toxic, and therefore lose HPs. In other terms: pyukumuku forces dragapult out. His typing and bulk also allow it to deal with a some of the physical attackers of the tier, like swampert mega and lopunny mega. His ability to trap passive mons in some matchups (Semi stall or stall, especially when mega sab isn't present, or is down) can be really useful too.
Also, if you're wondering:
252 SpA Manaphy Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Pyukumuku: 132-156 (42 - 49.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
It usually win the 1v1 if played well. You could invest it a bit in spdef to have a better matchup against it, but i don't think it's worth. Energy ball is kinda uncommon.
From UR to C
I think this buddy as a niche in stall, not as a late game sweeper or anything, but as a defogger. His ability to beat stallbreaker heatran is pretty unique, and don't care about firium Z.
His typing in conjunction with multiscale allow it to beat some anti stall mesures, like banded victini, blacephalon, gengar, and SD Normalium kart. However, it doesn't deserve more than C rank, since it needs a lot of support (Usually mega sableye + second defogger).
Dragonite @ Heavy-Duty Boots / Firium Z
Ability: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 24 SpD / 232 Spe
Serious Nature
- Roost
- Defog
- Flamethrower
- Earthquake
232 in speed-creep modest heatran. Firium Z is a tech to have an immunity to trick, which is nice vs blace, gengar and victini.
Ice beam is an option to lure lando-T and gliscor, but then you'll need icium Z to ohko kartana.
Calcs:
+2 252 Atk Kartana Breakneck Blitz (200 BP) vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 291-343 (75.3 - 88.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Dragonite Flamethrower vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Kartana: 616-728 (237.8 - 281%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252 SpA Gengar Shadow Ball vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 127-150 (32.9 - 38.8%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO
0 Atk Dragonite Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gengar: 280-330 (107.2 - 126.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Choice Band Victini V-create vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Multiscale Dragonite: 95-112 (24.6 - 29%) -- 99.9% chance to 4HKO
You can outspeed and roost, thanks to the speed drop, and then pp stall v create easily.
+6 200 SpA Serperior Leaf Storm vs. 252 HP / 24 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 67-80 (17.3 - 20.7%) -- possible 5HKO
40% maximum if multiscale is broken. If they spam leech seed, keep switching beteween chansey and dnite.
Replays:
(I used swampert and deo d in these replays, for testing purposes. Even if these are rated high ladder (1650-1700), don't take this as a proof of their viability: they are outclassed, and shouldn't be used, imo.) https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1204645515
Pyukumuku dealing with dd pult. Unfortunately, pult manages to break pyuk thanks to a crit, but can't do anything anymore since pyukumuku wasted dragon darts' PPs.
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1204973725
Sun is a very uncommon sight, but it exists (Torkoal and venu are C rank) and venusaur can beat chansey by overpowering her. However, dragonite was able to deal with venusaur, allowing me to win the game. There is also some pyukumuku-walls-dragapult stuff in this replay.
I reached #2 with this team, which isn't even optimized.
IMPORTANT EDIT: long after doing that post, i realised how BAD is the ladder: in fact, it's not that hard to reach very high elo in that ladder even with bad stalls, since people aren't prepared against that playstyle there. Therefore, i recommand strongly to not use your ladder rating as an argument, it's a bad one.
Btw i changed my mind about dnite. While it effectively counter mons like victini, sd kart, etc... those aren't common at all. Dnite maybe had a niche in gen7 since those breakers were better in usum (Although stall was very matchup fishy there), but since they practically all fell off viability, it's not worth using dnite on stall anymore. Also, just use glisc for tran.
Btw, pyuk would need some spdef investment to beat eball manaphy, since they can just fish for a spdef drop or a crit to win, or just pp stall pyuk's recovery in the long term.
edit 2: nevermind, dnite is fine on stall. It's niche, but fine.
Hey everyone! Before the DLC drops, we decided to do one last update to the viability rankings. The slate with all votes can be found here. I would also like to announce that Sevelon will be joining us on the VR council! Congratulations!
Code:
Rises:
Dragapult from A+ to S
Mega Latias from A to A+
Magearna from A to A+
Blissey from A- to A+
Magnezone from A- to A
Mega Slowbro from A- to A
Weavile from A- to A
Mew from B to B+
Mega Sableye from B to B+
Kommo-o from B- to B
Skarmory from B- to B
Pyukumuku from UR to C
Drops:
Gliscor from S to A+
Heatran from S to A+
Hydreigon from A+ to A-
Kyurem from A+ to A
Tangrowth from A to A-
Greninja from A- to B+
Grimmsnarl from B- to C
Terrakion from C to UR
Over time, Dragapult has really developped into one of the most consistent setup sweepers and pressing issues in the teambuilder. Over time, Dragapult has adapted and has started seeing usage on bulky offense and balance teams whereas it was previously almost exclusively used on hyper offense teams. With it seeing more usage on bulky offense and balance teams, Dragapult has proven to be much more consistent as a threat and we ultimately believe that it is deserving of the S rank.
Sporting one of the highest winrates in NDPL, Blissey is considered one of the best specially defensive pivots in the metagame. Being capable of checking such a huge portion of the special metagame, while easily providing wallbreakers like Mega Medicham, Ash-Greninja, Garchomp, etc. with momentum, is incredible right now.
With the increase in usage of Pokemon like Dragapult and Mega Latias, Weavile is better than ever before in the National Dex metagame. Pursuit is incredibly valuable right now, trapping many common Pokemon, and Ice Shard is very useful to handle Dragapult.
Hydreigon is nothing but a shell of its former self. With the increase in usage of Blissey, it has a hard time effectively breaking down teams. Not just that, but its Speed tier leaves a fair bit to be desired too; Hydreigon tends to suck up a lot of your momentum when matched against Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Lopunny. This issue becomes especially apparent when you realize that Hydreigon lacks a lot of opportunities to switch in; Slowbro can Teleport, Zapdos can Volt Switch, etc. Hydreigon still has some useful defensive utility in checking Ash-Greninja and Heatran, but it is not as threatening of a wallbreaker as it used to be and its flaws are very apparent in the current metagame.
This thread will be locked as we move into the metagame that the upcoming DLC is bringing with it.
Hey everyone! Because of the relatively unchanged state of the metagame, we decided to push through a quick slate for the VR so that it could open up quickly again. The slate with the votes can be found here. Here is everything that changed:
Code:
Rises:
Mega Latias from A+ to S
Reuniclus from A- to A
Mega Aerodactyl from UR to B-
Hawlucha from UR to C
Drops:
Garchomp from A+ to A
Hippowdon from A to A-
Bisharp from B+ to B
Serperior from B to B-
Mandibuzz from C to UR
Nidoking from C to UR
Thundurus-T from C to UR
Torkoal from C to UR
Venusaur from C to UR
With the release of Crown Tundra, Mega Latias got some new tools. Most notably: Aura Sphere. With the addition of Aura Sphere to Mega Latias's movepool, checking Mega Latias has become a lot tougher. Aura Sphere pressures all of Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, and Weavile massively and makes it significantly harder to effectively Pursuit trap as a result. Mega Latias is one of the most consistent winconditions right now and we believe that it is among the best Pokemon in the metagame, thus it is rising to S.
As the metagame has evolved, Garchomp has started struggling a little more. Garchomp's most notably been struggling with the consistent rise in usage of Corviknight. Not just that, but the increase in Mega Latias, Slowbro, etc. certainly don't do it any favors either. Ofcourse Garchomp is still a good Pokemon, but for now we would like to reflect Garchomp's drop in effectiveness with a drop to A.
All to A-
All of these are staples on rain— a playstyle that benefits quite a bit from the DLC. Zapdos got Hurricane and Weather Ball, Pert got Flip Turn, Liquidation, and Bulk Up. They’ve been generally trending upward in the meta since Ash Gren got unbanned, and now is a good time for them to go back up to A- imo.
I have one nomination that dawned on me after the VR update, and I think it’s something you’re gonna like.
to S rank
This may be a bit of a stretch, but I believe Blissey has become a central Pokemon to the tier that has both defined what has gotten better and what has gotten worse in the metagame. The introduction of Teleport and Heavy-Duty Boots have turned it from an inferior Chansey to a tempo setting special walling beast that can snuff Ash-Greninja and Hydreigon while bringing Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile intothe spotlight. Since Blissey has been introduced, we’ve seen a massive influx of the latter Pokemon to both beat and take advantage of Blissey’s talents. And yet, it still dictates the pace of several games, providing strong utility with status or Porting to literally anything. These latter traits also make it extremely difficult to take advantage of, as the Blissey player often has an advantage once they click Teleport. It has turned VoltTurn offense into a meta-defining playstyle alongside Teleport Slowbro, and allows breakers like Mega Medicham and Weavile to wallbreak freely while having a supporting defensive backbone who can also pivot them in later. Blissey has also forced many Spikes balances to run strong physical attackers or Pokemon like Calm Mind Clefable and Reuniclus, mostly for Blissey alone. These metagame shifts and Blissey’s continued success in the metagame lead me to believe that it deserves the esteemed S rank.
Mega Latios from A- to A
Ok, with Aura Sphere and Mystical Fire, Mega Latias is easily the best mega in the tier. However, I feel that Mega Latios still benefited from its new moves, notable allowing to OHKO Ferrothorn and have a way to deal with Tyranitar formes. It also can deal with Heatran and other Steel-types without being relegated to Earthquake, which also means that it no longer has to utilize a bulk-lowering nature. I can see that Mega Latias gives it plenty of competition with it being one of the best Pokemon in the tier. However, this doesn't mean that Mega Latios can't run its classic 3 Attacks wallbreaker set with Psyshock and two coverage moves. Mega Latios is also more powerful than Mega Latias, which means that it is the better wallbreaker.
I have one nomination that dawned on me after the VR update, and I think it’s something you’re gonna like.
to S rank
This may be a bit of a stretch, but I believe Blissey has become a central Pokemon to the tier that has both defined what has gotten better and what has gotten worse in the metagame. The introduction of Teleport and Heavy-Duty Boots have turned it from an inferior Chansey to a tempo setting special walling beast that can snuff Ash-Greninja and Hydreigon while bringing Pokemon like Mega Medicham and Mega Mawile intothe spotlight. Since Blissey has been introduced, we’ve seen a massive influx of the latter Pokemon to both beat and take advantage of Blissey’s talents. And yet, it still dictates the pace of several games, providing strong utility with status or Porting to literally anything. These latter traits also make it extremely difficult to take advantage of, as the Blissey player often has an advantage once they click Teleport. It has turned VoltTurn offense into a meta-defining playstyle alongside Teleport Slowbro, and allows breakers like Mega Medicham and Weavile to wallbreak freely while having a supporting defensive backbone who can also pivot them in later. Blissey has also forced many Spikes balances to run strong physical attackers or Pokemon like Calm Mind Clefable and Reuniclus, mostly for Blissey alone. These metagame shifts and Blissey’s continued success in the metagame lead me to believe that it deserves the esteemed S rank.
I liked a lot of the things Solaris says here, and I thought I'd add some of my own thoughts as to why Blissey is in league with every S tier pokemon (with the notable exception of Dragapult, who is clearly the head honcho of the meta, but it is most likely being banned soon so I will be focusing on the other 4 with this post). Blissey has the distinct advantage of being the greatest special defense sponge in the tier with its monstrous HP and special defense stats - even when running max defense. Its new addition of teleport makes it a pivot as well, which is unheard of for such a bulky mon. All of that is all fine and dandy, but I really think that toxic is what distinguishes this pokemon. Toxic Blissey is able to cripple a bunch of the prominent pokemon in the tier, such as both Slowbro variants, Mlati (+3 0 SpA Latias-Mega Aura Sphere vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 294-348 (41.1 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO), Tangrowth, Hippowdon, Zapdos, and especially Volcarona. Speaking of which, Blissey is hands down the greatest defensive check to Volcarona, an utterly horrifying pokemon this metagame with the diversity included in choosing to run Z or the far better imo heavy duty boots
(+6 252 SpA Volcarona Flamethrower vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey: 465-547 (65.1 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO).
One other thing I'd like to mention is that, due to the addition of teleport, Blissey has a lot more flexibility in teamstyles. It can be run on any range of BO->stall. Additionally, natural cure is a great ability to have on stall, that limits the amount of times you need to use heal bell to rid yourself from status on various stall staples such as Zapdos/Moltres, Gastrodon, etc by switching it in on the toxic prediction.
In conclusion, while I am both biased towards stallier pokemon and not as knowledgeable as Solaros & Lunaris, I concur with their suggestion to increase Blissey to S rank.
I definitely agree with Solaris on Blissey's rise to S rank, but I would also like to argue for Slowbro to rise as well due to its similar influence on the metagame. Future Sight has helped to enable a myriad of the tier's wallbreakers and sweepers, from Cinderace to Magearna. Not only that, but the prominence of Slowbro has also helped play a role in what has gotten better and worse, much like how Solaris states Blissey has. Slowbro's rise in usage has resulted in mons like Mega Lopunny and Garchomp being cast aside in preference to other choices like Mega Medicham and Heatran that are much better equipped at pressuring the combination of it and the aforementioned Blissey. Teams are pretty much forced to run at least 1 wallbreaker, if not 2, that can beat both BlissBro and the Zapdos/Bulky Steel that they are often paired with, which I think speaks to just how influential both mons are in the metagame. Overall, Slowbro is as potent as Blissey in the metagame, and I believe that it too deserves a rise to S rank.
-> A/A-
Ash Greninja has frankly fallen off a bit imo. It can't do much of anything to the common BlissBro and PexClef Balance/Bulky Offenses that are dominant in the meta, and the increase in usage of Heavy-Duty Boots on checks like Pex and Gastrodon makes its Spikes-setting less useful, meaning it needs more support than before to make its damage output and utility worthwhile. The aforementioned Blissey especially causes problems, tanking Hydros and Dark Pulses all day while ignoring Spikes with Boots and using non-U-turn variants as momentum fodder (and using U-turn means forgoing better options like hazards and Water Shuriken).
-> A/A-
Mega Lopunny has also fallen off for the same reasons as Ash Greninja, though the issue is more towards the fact that it doesn't do enough damage to break through the aforementioned BlissBro and PexClef teams and requires immense support to do anything meaningful to them. Speed control is also a lot less necessary than a few months ago, as the aforementioned backbones tend to be sturdy enough to hold off faster teams, which further hurts Lop's viability. Because of this, more players are opting towards other megas, such as Medicham and Mawile, with the former especially giving it competition as a Fighting-type mega.
-> B+
Volcarona rarely sweeps nowadays as a result of the rise of many of its checks such as Toxapex, Blissey, Heatran and Mega Tyranitar. Offensive sets on HO have to make the difficult decision of what coverage they want to run as well as whether they want to run Z-moves or Boots and struggle to deal with certain checks as a result, which isn't very favorable given that offensive sets only really get one chance to sweep. Bulky QD has the issue of not being able to fit coverage and while it can check stuff like Mega Mawile and Mega Scizor, players would rather run mons like Corviknight and Zapdos as they aren't nearly as crippled by Knock Off and provide much more utility like Defog and momentum.
+ + -> A-
Manaphy Rain has been rising up in usage lately as a result of both the rise of the aforementioned backbones and the addition of Hurricane Zapdos as a tool. Simply put, Manaphy Rain matches well against both the defensive and offensive teams in the tier because Swampert + Ash-Gren's ability to clean up after Manaphy abuses the passivity of most of their checks.
-> A-
Gastrodon has a lot of positive qualities that make it really good in the current meta. It checks Manaphy Rain quite well as it stonewalls Manaphy with Clear Smog and tanks hits from Ash-Gren and Zapdos all day. It also provides a Volt-Switch immunity which is becoming more and more important in the meta as mons like Koko and Specs Magearna are becoming more prominent as a result of their ability to force out the other Ground-types in the meta and thus maintain momentum.
-> UR
This has a lot of issues that make it very unfavorable as a bulky water. For starters, its pitiful physical bulk and Flying-type make it terrible against the majority of SR setters, especially the SD Ground types, and the only setter it has a favorable matchup against in Heatran is able to pressure it with Toxic and/or Taunt. It's also incredibly reliant on HDB so as to not be forced to Roost every time it comes in when SR is on the field, so it can't come in on anything with Knock Off or it becomes incredibly passive. It's also worth noting that Mantine also isn't really that good of a rain check anymore, despite being able to wall Manaphy with Haze and Pert + Gren, because of the addition of Thunder+Hurricane Zapdos as well as the fact that Ferrothorn tends to run Toxic on these teams, which makes Tine even more passive as it repeatedly tries to heal the damage off. And finally, Koko's been returning as a legitimate pivot alongside other Voltturn users which makes using Mantine even more difficult as it continuously gets forced out.
-> B/B-
Koko's been underrated for a while now and I think NDPL was a perfect example of this. Despite the prominence of bulky Grounds in the tier, Tapu Koko has been able to return to a legitimate niche as an offensive pivot as a result of its sheer power. As mentioned in the NDPL posts, all it really takes is one correct prediction for Koko to obliterate the opposing team's bulky ground (unless it's Gastrodon) with Specs HP Ice, which allows it and its teammates to pivot much more freely around the opponent, which is great wearing down the common BlissBro and PexClef cores.
Hey everyone! We wanted to push out a VR update as soon as we felt the metagame was somewhat ready. You can find the voting slate here. Here is everything that changed:
Code:
Blissey from A+ to S
Mega Medicham from A to A+
Weavile from A to A+
Tyranitar from A- to A
Aegislash from B+ to A
Spectrier from UR to A-
Mega Charizard Y from B to B+
Victini from B to B+
Tapu Koko from C to B+
Gyarados from C to B-
Hawlucha from C to B-
Mantine from C to B-
Dracozolt from UR to B-
Galarian Zapdos from UR to B-
Mega Diancie from UR to C
Shedinja from UR to C
Toxapex from S to A+
Ash-Greninja from A+ to A
Mega Lopunny from A+ to A
Hippowdon from A- to B+
Mega Latios from A- to B+
Volcarona from A- to B
Mega Charizard X from B+ to B
Mew from B+ to B
Rotom-H from B+ to B
Rotom-W from B+ to B
Mega Gallade from B to B-
Mega Pinsir from B- to C
Mega Aggron from C to UR
Despite its absolutely barren movepool, Spectrier has proven to be a good Pokemon in National Dex. With Dragapult leaving, one of the tier's best Speed control options was lost and Spectrier is capable of filling some of that void. The fact that it can keep some of the tier's biggest threats like Mega Latias and Cinderace under control with its solid Speed tier is incredible valuable right now. Beyond that, Spectrier is an incredibly lopsides wincondition that will either win you games because your opponent has no bulky Ghost resist, or it will struggle to do something in the face of its, admittedly small pool of consistent checks.
Tapu Koko has seen a meteoric rise over the past couple months, and we are finally rising it up to B+ from all the way down in C. I could not word it any better myself, so I will simply quote Guard's incredible post instead!
Tapu Koko has blossomed as a potent pivot throughout the past few weeks. Its Choice Specs set in particular has proven to be a legitimate threat in a metagame where common Volt Switch-immune Pokemon such as Gliscor and Landorus-T are one prediction away from being OHKOed by Hidden Power Ice. Once Tapu Koko manages to get rid of Ground-types, it turns into a fantastic and hard-hitting momentum generator with Volt Switch, often subjecting the opponent to a vicious vortex of progress-making that is hard to punish or contain.
I imagine this'll get some backlash given the mon in question, but I'll try my best to explain why I'm making this nomination.
Reading a recent post by Finchinator leads me to believe that as long as a mon has viability within a specific playstyle, then it has merit to being ranked to at least some degree. This playstyle in question would be its synergy that it has in the weather known as sun. I realize that sun isn't considered that highly aside from Charizard Y and its individual power currently, but I'll try my best to explain why Lilligant shines enough to at least warrant being at C.
Chlorophyll: Most people who recognize this ability would first be drawn to thinking about Venusaur as their instant or primary pick if they were to use a Chlorophyll user. Lilligant is another user that should be considered due to her speed advantage (and Quiver Dance, which I'll go into a bit later). With just Modest alone she hits 558 speed in the sun, which puts her above a choice scarfed Cinderace, which only lands on 555 speed. This can allow one to potentially sleep Cinderace with Lilligant in instances it'd try to come in to deal with Lilligant. Timid allows her to outpace base 130 speed mons who use scarf. She also is capable of outspeeding most other mons that exist such as Mega Diancie, Tapu Koko, Spectrier, Ash Greninja, and Mega Lopunny. Outspeeding allows her to either status or at minimum 2HKO each mon. Meaning they have to come in at minimum entirely fresh to try and deal with her, while still worrying about potentially being hit by status for their trouble.
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diancie-Mega: 264-312 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 380-450 (133.3 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 105-126 (37.3 - 44.8%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 148-175 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 87-103 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 279-328 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Lilligant at most can chip, but can't win without Sleep.)
Quiver Dance: Lilligant has access to Quiver Dance, which can allow her to buff her damage considerably, makes it harder to kill her with special attacks, and keep her fast even when Chlorophyll is more than already over. Just for perspective, she manages to be faster than Mega Lopunny with just one Quiver Dance. This helps strengthen some of the earlier calcs by giving her both more damage and more defense against some of the matchups.
+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (For perspective of how much that one boost of bulk actually does.)
One of the largest weakness that Lilligant has is its limited movepool. It heavily relies on Hidden Power for coverage and it can only pick one type for coverage. The main two to look at are Fire (for Ferrothorn and for other grass or steel types - it also gets a boost from sun) and ground (allows it a chance to be able to deal with Heatran).
I'm not saying Lilligant is this amazing force that should be ranked super high, but I do believe that it has its own merits and has tools to possibly deal with things within the current metagame right now. I believe that C is a fair rank for it to be right now given its unique traits that come together for it. One could even utilize Life Orb instead of Leftovers (as I used for my set and these calculations) for more damage over potential longevity.
I imagine this'll get some backlash given the mon in question, but I'll try my best to explain why I'm making this nomination.
Reading a recent post by Finchinator leads me to believe that as long as a mon has viability within a specific playstyle, then it has merit to being ranked to at least some degree. This playstyle in question would be its synergy that it has in the weather known as sun. I realize that sun isn't considered that highly aside from Charizard Y and its individual power currently, but I'll try my best to explain why Lilligant shines enough to at least warrant being at C.
Chlorophyll: Most people who recognize this ability would first be drawn to thinking about Venusaur as their instant or primary pick if they were to use a Chlorophyll user. Lilligant is another user that should be considered due to her speed advantage (and Quiver Dance, which I'll go into a bit later). With just Modest alone she hits 558 speed in the sun, which puts her above a choice scarfed Cinderace, which only lands on 555 speed. This can allow one to potentially sleep Cinderace with Lilligant in instances it'd try to come in to deal with Lilligant. Timid allows her to outpace base 130 speed mons who use scarf. She also is capable of outspeeding most other mons that exist such as Mega Diancie, Tapu Koko, Spectrier, Ash Greninja, and Mega Lopunny. Outspeeding allows her to either status or at minimum 2HKO each mon. Meaning they have to come in at minimum entirely fresh to try and deal with her, while still worrying about potentially being hit by status for their trouble.
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Diancie-Mega: 264-312 (109.5 - 129.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 181-214 (64.4 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 174-205 (51 - 60.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Shadow Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 178-211 (63.3 - 75%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Greninja-Ash: 380-450 (133.3 - 157.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Greninja-Ash Water Shuriken (20 BP) (3 hits) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 105-126 (37.3 - 44.8%) -- approx. 3HKO
252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lopunny-Mega: 148-175 (54.6 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 87-103 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- 67.4% chance to 3HKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Lilligant: 279-328 (99.2 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO (Lilligant at most can chip, but can't win without Sleep.)
Quiver Dance: Lilligant has access to Quiver Dance, which can allow her to buff her damage considerably, makes it harder to kill her with special attacks, and keep her fast even when Chlorophyll is more than already over. Just for perspective, she manages to be faster than Mega Lopunny with just one Quiver Dance. This helps strengthen some of the earlier calcs by giving her both more damage and more defense against some of the matchups.
+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Tapu Koko: 271-321 (96.4 - 114.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ SpA Lilligant Energy Ball vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Spectrier: 259-306 (75.9 - 89.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Spectrier Never-Ending Nightmare (160 BP) vs. +1 0 HP / 4 SpD Lilligant: 238-282 (84.6 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (For perspective of how much that one boost of bulk actually does.)
One of the largest weakness that Lilligant has is its limited movepool. It heavily relies on Hidden Power for coverage and it can only pick one type for coverage. The main two to look at are Fire (for Ferrothorn and for other grass or steel types - it also gets a boost from sun) and ground (allows it a chance to be able to deal with Heatran).
I'm not saying Lilligant is this amazing force that should be ranked super high, but I do believe that it has its own merits and has tools to possibly deal with things within the current metagame right now. I believe that C is a fair rank for it to be right now given its unique traits that come together for it. One could even utilize Life Orb instead of Leftovers (as I used for my set and these calculations) for more damage over potential longevity.
You see, the problem lies in the viability of sun itself. Sun is not viable in the metagame atm. Another issue is the setup, w/o setup you are v weak and unable to break a lot of the metagames threats. The prominence of blissey and mega latias is also terrible for it. It was NU/PU for the last 2 gens, I don't see why it would suddenly be on a vr for ou. Its also outclassed quite heavily by volcarona (which tbf isn't great either) and its fellow sun partner, venusaur. It could have a niche as speed control on sun but I don't think the niche is needed enough for it to have a place on vr.
You see, the problem lies in the viability of sun itself. Sun is not viable in the metagame atm. Another issue is the setup, w/o setup you are v weak and unable to break a lot of the metagames threats. The prominence of blissey and mega latias is also terrible for it. It was NU/PU for the last 2 gens, I don't see why it would suddenly be on a vr for ou. Its also outclassed quite heavily by volcarona (which tbf isn't great either) and its fellow sun partner, venusaur. It could have a niche as speed control on sun but I don't think the niche is needed enough for it to have a place on vr.
I feel that saying sun is not viable is starting at a conclusion that's already determined rather than looking at what's there and seeing the potential of something that could help sun do better and be more viable. Setup is always a thing with weather, which comes in the form of setting up the specific weather for the abusers to achieve their primary focus. This is the case even with rain and its swift swim users as they are too slow to accomplish much of anything otherwise. That doesn't make them bad, it places an emphasis on that particular playstyle and how it operates.
I don't see Blissey alone as a reason to write off Lilligant considering a lot of viable mons have walls or other mons they can't overcome on their own. This is why a team is made of multiple members to check and account for the weaknesses that exist for the mons that exist on your team. Mega Swampert has trouble overcoming Slowbro, for example, but one wouldn't say it is unviable despite it also being largely prominent (as well as paired with Blissey a lot of time as well at over 35% of the time as its top partner according to pikalytics).
I also don't see how Lilligant's previous placements in past metagames has relevance to the metagame we have now. There are new and different mons to account for as well as an altogether different makeup of what things had been before. Let's not forget that Tangrowth used to also be RU before it was seen for how good it actually was.
Volcarona works entirely different and isn't as well tied to sun as Lilligant is. Venusaur lacks the necessary speed to deal with things as well as Lilligant, lacks Quiver Dance - so it has to rely on Growth and becomes easy to deal with when sun is gone, and Poison has both positives and negatives attached to it. Lilligant providing speed control helps sun deal with threats that it'd otherwise have trouble dealing with and I feel that its niche should at least warrant it at C rank with Mega Diancie, Grimmsnarl, Seismitoad, and Suicune. All have their niche that helps allow them to be tangibly viable, so I don't see why Lilligant can't be the same with the potential it brings to sun.
I feel that saying sun is not viable is starting at a conclusion that's already determined rather than looking at what's there and seeing the potential of something that could help sun do better and be more viable. Setup is always a thing with weather, which comes in the form of setting up the specific weather for the abusers to achieve their primary focus. This is the case even with rain and its swift swim users as they are too slow to accomplish much of anything otherwise. That doesn't make them bad, it places an emphasis on that particular playstyle and how it operates.
I don't see Blissey alone as a reason to write off Lilligant considering a lot of viable mons have walls or other mons they can't overcome on their own. This is why a team is made of multiple members to check and account for the weaknesses that exist for the mons that exist on your team. Mega Swampert has trouble overcoming Slowbro, for example, but one wouldn't say it is unviable despite it also being largely prominent (as well as paired with Blissey a lot of time as well at over 35% of the time as its top partner according to pikalytics).
I also don't see how Lilligant's previous placements in past metagames has relevance to the metagame we have now. There are new and different mons to account for as well as an altogether different makeup of what things had been before. Let's not forget that Tangrowth used to also be RU before it was seen for how good it actually was.
Volcarona works entirely different and isn't as well tied to sun as Lilligant is. Venusaur lacks the necessary speed to deal with things as well as Lilligant, lacks Quiver Dance - so it has to rely on Growth and becomes easy to deal with when sun is gone, and Poison has both positives and negatives attached to it. Lilligant providing speed control helps sun deal with threats that it'd otherwise have trouble dealing with and I feel that its niche should at least warrant it at C rank with Mega Diancie, Grimmsnarl, Seismitoad, and Suicune. All have their niche that helps allow them to be tangibly viable, so I don't see why Lilligant can't be the same with the potential it brings to sun.
Again, we have the issue of why not just use a better sun abuser/setup sweeper, such as the aforementioned volcarona and venusaur. Being walled by blissey and mega latias is a huge issue seeing as those 2 mons are both in the top 3 mons in the natdex ou tier, I mentioned the tiering before as it got 0 new additions in gen 8. Lets also not forget tangrowth got the third best ability in the whole game which is why it rose to ou glory in gen 5, lilligants speed tier outspeeds nothing that venusaurs does not, other then the previously mentioned scarf ace which is completely unviable, volcarona definitely abuses sun, with its fire moves becoming nuclear under sun, growth is a better setup move in this occasion due to the power boost, and venusaurs unwallable coverage makes it a much better option on sun, all of the aforementioned mons are much more viable then lilligant has ever been in an ou tier, and I don't see a reason for that to change seeing as it has received 0 notable buffs this gen. It is simply outclassed in every way.
to A
from A+ to S: Being the fastest viable Pokemon in National Dex, Dragapult is able to easily fuck any Bulky Offense to Hyper Offense team, and most Balances. After a Dragon Dance, revenge killing with a scarfer is impossible, even if Pult is Adamant. With Z-Moves available, it could break through offensive checks and walls it couldn't before, such as Toxapex, Clefable, Magearna, and Hippowdon. It also has Clear Body, meaning Lando-T can't even beat it. A M-Medicham Offense is instantly 6-0'd the moment it gets a DD off. This leads to 3 forms of counterplay: Pursuit-Trapping, Sucker Punch, and Unaware. The former two are extremely exploitable/unreliable, and the third pretty much loses if M-Mawile is present.
from A+ to A: Slowbro faces massive competitions from Toxapex and Tapu Fini as a bulky Water. As a physical Water, its typing make it weak to Bug, which makes U-Turn from Physical Attackers cancel out its Regenerator, so its forced to run Slack Off. Teleport and Scald are mandatory, so it has to choose between Ice Beam and Future Sight. Choosing the former means forgoing valuable offensive supports for mons like Magearna and Loppuny, and going with the latter means losing to attackers such as Garchomp. Its also very weak specially, inviting in attackers such as Ash-Greninja, Dragapult, and Hydreigon, which most of these can't come in on the other two bulky Waters. Dracovish also got banned, so it lost another purpose. A drop should represent this.
From UR to B-
From UR to C
to S rank
-> 
-> A/A-
-> A/A-
-> B+
-> A-
-> UR 
-> B/B-
