Resource National Dex Viability Rankings v2

[Fairy Mercedes]

Again, we have the issue of why not just use a better sun abuser/setup sweeper, such as the aforementioned volcarona and venusaur. Being walled by blissey and mega latias is a huge issue seeing as those 2 mons are both in the top 3 mons in the natdex ou tier, I mentioned the tiering before as it got 0 new additions in gen 8. Lets also not forget tangrowth got the third best ability in the whole game which is why it rose to ou glory in gen 5, lilligants speed tier outspeeds nothing that venusaurs does not, other then the previously mentioned scarf ace which is completely unviable, volcarona definitely abuses sun, with its fire moves becoming nuclear under sun, growth is a better setup move in this occasion due to the power boost, and venusaurs unwallable coverage makes it a much better option on sun, all of the aforementioned mons are much more viable then lilligant has ever been in an ou tier, and I don't see a reason for that to change seeing as it has received 0 notable buffs this gen. It is simply outclassed in every way.

Again, being walled by specific mons doesn't make another entirely unviable. I'm aware of how prominent both Blissey and Mega Latias are in the current metagame, but them being prominent doesn't just take away from Lilligant and what she does just because they are. I refer to my last post as I still stand by what I said with this there.

Tangrowth was RU in gen 5 and it wasn't until later in gen 6 for it to be recognized and rise to OU.

Venusaur needs to run timid to outspeed Cinderace like Lilligant can with only Modest and is entirely incapable of outspeeding base 130 speed mons that use scarf like Lilligant could. Growth is great for boosting power, but Quiver Dance gives speed that can allow Lilligant speed for even after sun is long gone. Scarf Cinderace is also perfectly viable and I feel that you're underselling it. I also didn't say that Volcarona can't work in sun, I said it isn't as well tied in the sun due to lacking Chlorophyll. It gets boosted fire moves and can dance like Lilligant, but it lacks the initial speed jump that gives Lilligant the utility that I'm suggesting. Lilligant also doesn't have to rely on HDB like Volcarona has to. So I wouldn't say it's outclassed. I believe it does as I suggested in my original post. That it has a bunch of unique traits that come together to help create something for itself that can do well on a sun team.

 

[Jordy]

I think this conversation about Lilligant has run its course. We will vote on it next time we update the VR. Let's move on to some more fruitful discussion!

 

[GummyMarkers]

I feel that saying sun is not viable is starting at a conclusion that's already determined rather than looking at what's there and seeing the potential of something that could help sun do better and be more viable. Setup is always a thing with weather, which comes in the form of setting up the specific weather for the abusers to achieve their primary focus. This is the case even with rain and its swift swim users as they are too slow to accomplish much of anything otherwise. That doesn't make them bad, it places an emphasis on that particular playstyle and how it operates.

I don't see Blissey alone as a reason to write off Lilligant considering a lot of viable mons have walls or other mons they can't overcome on their own. This is why a team is made of multiple members to check and account for the weaknesses that exist for the mons that exist on your team. Mega Swampert has trouble overcoming Slowbro, for example, but one wouldn't say it is unviable despite it also being largely prominent (as well as paired with Blissey a lot of time as well at over 35% of the time as its top partner according to pikalytics).

I also don't see how Lilligant's previous placements in past metagames has relevance to the metagame we have now. There are new and different mons to account for as well as an altogether different makeup of what things had been before. Let's not forget that Tangrowth used to also be RU before it was seen for how good it actually was.

Volcarona works entirely different and isn't as well tied to sun as Lilligant is. Venusaur lacks the necessary speed to deal with things as well as Lilligant, lacks Quiver Dance - so it has to rely on Growth and becomes easy to deal with when sun is gone, and Poison has both positives and negatives attached to it. Lilligant providing speed control helps sun deal with threats that it'd otherwise have trouble dealing with and I feel that its niche should at least warrant it at C rank with Mega Diancie, Grimmsnarl, Seismitoad, and Suicune. All have their niche that helps allow them to be tangibly viable, so I don't see why Lilligant can't be the same with the potential it brings to sun.

Although I'm still new-ish, I think the main problem with Sun is that Ninetales ain't good. Sure, you can Torkoal, but a good earth power shuts it down immediately. Part of the reason Pelipper is so good is it has access to U-turn, giving the opportunity for Swampert, Greninja, or others to come in. Sand gives ttar and hippowdon the special defense boost by 1.5.Even then, I'm not sure how well Chlorophyll could do. No Chlorophyll user is particularly amazing, as the sun that gives them the speed boost also means a single fire move gets em, and although Venusaur could work, now the thick fat is overriding the chlorophyll. Like Optify said, if you need a quiver dancer, Volcarona is a much stronger option, as it has higher speed and higher special attack, and doesn't rely on sun to be viable. I love sun, I love leafeon, ninetalese, etc, however without a good drought user and the fact chlorophyll mons are normally grass type, meaning that buffed fire move will definitely come back and get them, I don't see it being worthy.

Edit: Sorry Jordy, didn't realize your message about ending the conversation.

 

[Spyro]

Although I'm still new-ish, I think the main problem with Sun is that Ninetales ain't good. Sure, you can Torkoal, but a good earth power shuts it down immediately. Part of the reason Pelipper is so good is it has access to U-turn, giving the opportunity for Swampert, Greninja, or others to come in. Sand gives ttar and hippowdon the special defense boost by 1.5.Even then, I'm not sure how well Chlorophyll could do. No Chlorophyll user is particularly amazing, as the sun that gives them the speed boost also means a single fire move gets em, and although Venusaur could work, now the thick fat is overriding the chlorophyll. Like Optify said, if you need a quiver dancer, Volcarona is a much stronger option, as it has higher speed and higher special attack, and doesn't rely on sun to be viable. I love sun, I love leafeon, ninetalese, etc, however without a good drought user and the fact chlorophyll mons are normally grass type, meaning that buffed fire move will definitely come back and get them, I don't see it being worthy.

Edit: Sorry Jordy, didn't realize your message about ending the conversation.

Hippowdon does not get a special defense boost in the sand. It's only Rock types that get it. Ninetales has also never been the premier sun setter since Torkoal got Drought. Torkoal can spin and gets Stealth Rock and Body Press to hit Tyranitar and Heatran while Ninetales can't really touch them.

 

[Hematemesis]

To change the subject, I'd like to nominate a drop really quickly if you don't mind.
A- -> B+

I reckon Excadrill lacks the offensive presence gained from doubled speed in sand rush that helped it rise to prominence in gen 6 and 7. Unfortunately, Helmet Tangrowth being the much more common set compared to Assault Vest, the rise in prominence of Gliscor and Corviknight, and Mega Latias' extreme presence in the metagame hampering its use, as aura sphere is a candid 2hko on Drill, while Lati lives a +2 iron head. Cinderace also has a pretty substantial matchup vs sand Drill, and an HJK obliterates both Drill and Tyranitar, leaving only the bulkier sand option Hippowdon or an unrelated to sand pokemon to be a Cinderace check. Additionally, this is by far the worst hazards has been in any meta, as extreme usage of heavy duty boots defoggers such as Zapdos, Moltres, or Rotom Heat bloomed into strong options for removal in the metagame (while others like Lando, Fini, Kartana, and the new Corviknight are strong defoggers with other items). As a result, rapid spin is no longer as nice an amenity to have, even with the new speed boost. All in all, I think sand balance has had an extreme drop off, and sand works better as a whittling tool on bulky teams with Hippowdon, and Tyranitar and its mega pal find use in other areas that aren't based around the sand, such as partnering with Zard Y. Spdef drill with toxic is still a strong option, and imo probably it's best set comparatively, but even the sash lead sets to put up the rocks on HO are thoroughly outclassed by lead Landorus, and dedicated leads such as Shuckle or webs setters are better suited for HO anyway. Don't get me wrong, +2 Drill with a rapid spin boost or in the sand is still an atrocity and can clean games, but I think it's necessity to be built around more these days than in past generations is indicative of a lack of privilege of being in A-. Enjoy!

 

[Spyro]

To change the subject, I'd like to nominate a drop really quickly if you don't mind.
A- -> B+

I reckon Excadrill lacks the offensive presence gained from doubled speed in sand rush that helped it rise to prominence in gen 6 and 7. Unfortunately, Helmet Tangrowth being the much more common set compared to Assault Vest, the rise in prominence of Gliscor and Corviknight, and Mega Latias' extreme presence in the metagame hampering its use, as aura sphere is a candid 2hko on Drill, while Lati lives a +2 iron head. Cinderace also has a pretty substantial matchup vs sand Drill, and an HJK obliterates both Drill and Tyranitar, leaving only the bulkier sand option Hippowdon or an unrelated to sand pokemon to be a Cinderace check. Additionally, this is by far the worst hazards has been in any meta, as extreme usage of heavy duty boots defoggers such as Zapdos, Moltres, or Rotom Heat bloomed into strong options for removal in the metagame (while others like Lando, Fini, Kartana, and the new Corviknight are strong defoggers with other items). As a result, rapid spin is no longer as nice an amenity to have, even with the new speed boost. All in all, I think sand balance has had an extreme drop off, and sand works better as a whittling tool on bulky teams with Hippowdon, and Tyranitar and its mega pal find use in other areas that aren't based around the sand, such as partnering with Zard Y. Spdef drill with toxic is still a strong option, and imo probably it's best set comparatively, but even the sash lead sets to put up the rocks on HO are thoroughly outclassed by lead Landorus, and dedicated leads such as Shuckle or webs setters are better suited for HO anyway. Don't get me wrong, +2 Drill with a rapid spin boost or in the sand is still an atrocity and can clean games, but I think it's necessity to be built around more these days than in past generations is indicative of a lack of privilege of being in A-. Enjoy!

I disagree. Excadrill has always had a way of adapting to all metagame changes and trends. Slide Quake deals with Zapdos, Moltres, Rotom. Rock Slide is a perfectly fine move to use over Rapin Spin because you can just have hazard control on something else. Latias, Tangrowth and Gliscor can quickly be overwhelmed by a +2 Z Steelium so they're not really Excadrill answers. I would never put Excadrill below A- personally. Corviknight is probably the best answer to Excadrill but even then getting flinched by a +2 Rock Slide is not fun.

 

[Hematemesis]

I'm glad you brought these things to my attention, as it allowed me to add some things to my argument against Drill that previously were not included.

Some More Problems With Sand Rush Sets (I think there's just one general one in there as well)

Offensive Checks: For starters, I want to talk about offensive checks, as I didn't really cover them. I forgot completely about Rotom Wash. Assuming rock slide is used and not rapid spin, the matchup seems in favor of Rotom Wash. RWash switches in on a swords dance, and has to land a Hydro Pump through a rock slide, that, in order to OHKO, is a pretty substantial roll in favor of Rwash. While not ideal, the math seems to line up for Rwash winning, as hitting the pump on the Drill through the rock slide is about a 62% chance (+2 252 Atk Excadrill Rock Slide vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Rotom-Wash: 158-187 (51.9 - 61.5%) -- 96.1% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery). And yes, Excadrill can't have sand rush and mold breaker at the same time, so levitate still works for it. AshGren, a very prominent mon currently, is a severe shut down to all Drill variants, as water shuriken is a confirmed kill on sand rush drill. Drill getting smacked by other weather is pretty self explanatory, as it can't really do much when a Pelipper comes in when it's time for a sand rush sweep. Zard-Y in particular shuts down a Drill even at +6, as it nullifies the speed boost and can't really be touched without rock slide, but can't be outsped without rapid spin (more on that later). Even things you wouldn't expect such as Mega Lop and Mega Medicham are good drill counters, as fake out taking away a turn of sand really helps to hamper what a Drill can do (sand is 5 turns, and you can't switch in Drill the turn sand goes up, so with a swords dance as well, it gets 3 turns to wreak havoc. Fake out takes away 1-2 of those turns usually, and then you outspeed). All in all, there are a host of offensive checks I didn't mention, and my bad for doing so.

Set Diversity Is Worse In Implementation: One of the greatest things about Excadrill is that it has 3 viable sets...in theory. From a team composition, it is very easy to guess what Excadrill came to the match at preview. Sand? It's pretty obviously sand sweeping Drill. HO? It's probably a suicide lead. Anything else? It's probably spdef with toxic. This probably seems pretty niche of a complaint, but when talking about a set diverse pokemon such as Clefable, it's extremely hard to tell what Clefable comes to any given match (not impossible, but significantly hard compared to most others due to it's extremely viable set diversity). One of Drill's main selling points (aside from lol sand rush) is that you can choose between a few cool sets. However, there is no surprise factor with which set it can be, so while it is good that it has set diversity, it's really only more choices in the teambuilder. This wasn't really a point brought up but I just thought of it.

Struggles to get to +2, and does not pull its weight: Nobody is going to sit and argue that a +2 Drill is sand rush is not one of the most horrifying things in the metagame. It is, and it has very little checks. With that being said, I think that in most cases, Drill doesn't get to +2 all the way. This is a purely hypothetical situation, but let's say that in an endgame, my opponent has a Tyranitar and an Excadrill. My HDB Cinderace goes for Hi Jump Kick to KO the Tyranitar, and looking to sweep, my opponent brings in Excadrill. Does he go for the swords dance there? I think he is forced to revenge kill the Cinderace with an earthquake and forgo the +2 for that turn. The Cinderace probably stays in and clicks hjk again, unless the opponent has enough turns to stall out the sand with sacks, and then Cinderace can come back in and hit (yes, HJK can miss, but I don't think factoring in hax or luck while judging the viability of a mon is a remotely good idea, and it opens up a whole different can of worms). There is a significant margin of pokemon Drill does set up on, but there are also a fair amount of mons that Drill struggles to set up on.

4 move slots hamper effectiveness: Slide quake, as you mentioned above, is a very smart way to deal with mons that are immune to ground and resist steel, such as the kanto brids without Articuno. With that being said, not being able to achieve a speed boost with rapid spin leaves it very susceptible to things revenge killing it once sand expires, which, to give a short list, is Victini, MMedi, Mlop, Cinderace, Garchomp, Weavile (knock is a roll, triple axel can miss), and with chip, aura sphere Mega Latias, + some others that I can't think of atm (I'd have to calc EP Kyurem). As you also said, not having rock slide leaves it susceptible to these 4x steel resist ground immune pokemon. Yes, there are other ways of dealing with this pokemon, and most of them are OHKOd by a +2 move under sand, but it seems like you're fishing for the opponent not having one of those speed checks if you're slide, and 4x steel resist if you're rapid spin.

Requires significant team support: This is pretty self explanatory, but Drill needs at least one sand stream mon to maximize its effectiveness in sand rush slots. Also, suicide lead is usually best on HO/balanced offense. Spdef Drill is the most lenient in terms of teamstyle (which is why I think it's the best), but if we're talking sand rush drill, it requires TTar or Hippo. Adding smooth rock to one of these to maximize sand turns is an option, but an option that will minimize the effectiveness of your setter, so it's a trade off that imo is not worth it and shouldn't be considered in Drill's viability.

There's a bit more I can go into, but it's probably beating a dead horse. Imo, when lined up next to Hydreigon, Fini, Lele, Tangrowth, and the horse, Excadrill is a cut weaker than those pokemon, and therefore it falls into B+ imo. Feel free to disagree, but I think that the evidence I have brought to the table is substantial enough to where this should be considered seriously. Enjoy!

 

[Spyro]

While I appreciate the long and thought out post some of your arguments are flawed and I'll explain why.

Excadrill is not meant to always come in and Swords Dance and try to sweep. It fuctions not only as a sweeper but a revenge killer, electric immunity hazard control, speed control and more all in one. Rotom-W is good for a one or 2 time switch to it but Excadrill does not Sword Dance in the early game. It is used as a speed control mon and hit and run who can come in and finish weakened enough Pokemon or come in on something that it threatens or forces out and get a free hit on whatever switches in to it so that it can get weakened so Excadrill can have an easier time sweeping later in the game.

Now to your next point. It's true that Greninja, Charizard Y and Rillaboom are all good revenge killers but this is not a reason to lower Excadrill in the viability ranks. They do no switch in well to Excadrill at all so they have to wait until the current teammate leaves the field before they can come in and force Excadrill out or kill it. And I'm glad Excadrill has checks in Mach Punch, Grassy Glide and Water Shiruken otherwise it would probably be Uber.

Now on to your next point. It's true that Sand only lasts 5 turns without a Smooth Rock and you want the 8 turns to really get the most out of Excadrill but I have to disagree that it requires a lot of team support. He IS the big support that he brings to teams. Having to run Tyranitar and Hippowdon for Sand Rush to work is not a negative because they are already really good Pokemon with Hippowdon being a good physical wall and Tyranitar checking a lot of things too and both being very reliable Stealth Rock setters. And I disagree with Smooth Rock not being worth it. Tyranitar and Hippowdon don't really rely on items to be effective. Of course they would love to have Leftovers or something else but weather not being infinite anymore is a good thing because otherwise Excadrill would still be an Uber. Smooth Rock is the closest thing to gen 5 weather so it's totally worth it to run but balanced out by the fact that you need to keep your Ttar or Hippo alive and careful about when you sack them.

Lastly the bit about the Cinderace scenario and Excadrill being forced to go for EQ. Excadrill is never forced to do anything. It can go either way so I don't think that's a good argument at all.

 

[FireFern]

Sorry if this post is too short or anything, but I don't think any of you have talked about Z-Giga Impact Excadrill. Normalium-Z Excadrill at +2 can break through Tangrowth, Zapdos, Rotom-Wash, and Gliscor all in one slot.

 

[BolTingBlazie]

Swampert at a- since if you get rain up, its very hard to get rid of as it can flip turn out in front of things like tangrowth and allow teammates to check tangrowth better where it cannot, the new moves in generation 8 that it gained like body press, darkest lariat, and liquidation make it even more scary in rain than it used to be prior to crown tundra, not to mention its really hard to wear down in rain unless you run tangrowth, it also syngergises even better with ash greninja and can even keep up with opposing ash-greninja in rain, there really are not many grass types in ou that check it other than tangrowth, and maybe a greninja grass knot. But, this thing is an even better rain abuser than it was before, gaining coverage and flip turn alike.

 

[Super Suit]

So after going through some conversation with a few people, I've decided that a nomination for a drop is in order for Mega Latios
B+-->C
Ever since the release of the Crown Tundra, Mega Latias has been a dominating threat in the National Dex OU metagame, being able to effectively set up on and destroy unprepared teams due to its excellent combination of bulk and power, along with the newly gained coverage of Aura Sphere to really stick it to Tyranitar. Mega Latios, on the other hand, has not benefitted nearly as well from the addition of Aura Sphere, as it needs a boost or 2 to actually threaten Tyranitar, and it lacks the necessary bulk that Latias has in order to obtain those boosts, so the slight power boost that Latios has over Latias ends up being nearly unnoticeable. The only sort of niche that remains for it is as a mixed attacker with Earthquake in order to destroy Heatran, but even this is being threatened, as with a few boosts, Latias can easily break Heatran with Aura Sphere. There are also numerous other problems with a mixed Mega Latios, most notably the fact that the current bulky metagame really gives it no room to wallbreak or take advantage of frailer teams with its higher unboosted offenses. All-in-all, Mega Latios really does not have a notable niche to differentiate itself from Mega Latias anymore, as it gets far fewer setup opportunities, opportunities to switch in, and opportunities to make progress against bulkier teams than its counterpart.

 

[pannu]

wanted to make some quick noms

to B+ -> A-

HO is stupidly consistent rn imo and these 2 are a big part of that. being able to reliably get up rocks and spikes helps HO alot which is why mew is my favourite HO lead, its ability to taunt on slower rocks leads is also really valuable ime. As for rilla its just a dumb strong wall breaker, +2 lo boosted grassy glides hit like a truck, any HO team should be running rilla and most of them should run mew.

C -> B-

kinda simple really, screens are very good in the current meta and grimm is the best (and only) screens setter we have.

C -> B-

I think moltres is a really good defogger, its a fantastic role compresser for stuff like checking certain mage sets, punishing uturn or other physical attacks with flame body burns and with its fire/ground coverage it can hit most mons

A+ -> S

This thing is stupidly broken. Future Sight + Teleport enables wallbreakers to do their job incredibly well and if you pair it up with regenerators extreme longevity boosts, any well played slowbro is enable to support wallbreakers through the whole game, forcing what would be a clean 3hko into a two hit or even one hit ko with future sight.

 

[KirbCena]

-> A

While Ferrothorn is a staple of bulky balance teams atm, it struggles a bit in the current metagame where threats like Heatran, Mega Medicham, Magnezone, etc., are pretty common. Spikes are also a bit mediocre given how common Boots are and the fact that Defoggers like Zapdos and Corvinknight PP stall it, and other common mons like Clefable, Gliscor, and Mega Latias ignore Spikes entirely. However, Ferro can at least circumvent the Spikes issue by running Knock Off (which also pressures the defoggers a bit, but not as much as it would like), hence why I believe a small drop to A is appropriate.

-> A+

This compresses a lot of roles rn, such as a Spectrier check, Mega Latias check (still need a defensive check because Aura Sphere, but it provides great offensive pressure), Stealth Rocker that beats most defoggers, and Sand Balance is also rather decent atm which this is a staple of.

-> A-

Basically what Saladae said, but Choice Band is also stupid good at breaking through common cores like BlissBro and PexClef and also provides strong speed control with Glide, especially since teammates like Heatran and Magnezone are also currently excellent and remove its checks in defensive steels and grasses.

-> S

Utterly ridiculous mon with its ability to force sacks thanks to FuturePort enabling so many wallbreakers rn. One good chip with FutureSight can spell doom against an opposing team's check to your offensive core and lets you tear them apart with ease. It also helps check some annoying mons like Cinderace and Mega Latias (especially if you've got something with Toxic that can wear it down).

-> A/A+

Pretty dumb mon imo. Despite its lack of coverage, Spectrier puts a lot of pressure on the teambuilder atm, as it pretty much necessitates the use of Ghost resists, which, as we saw with Dragapult, is a tiny pool of viable options. Players are pretty much required to put a Tyranitar form or Bulky Hydreigon on their team as not to get swept by it. These options aren't foolproof either, as both TTar formes hate SubWisp neutering them; Hydreigon can get beat by Hex if Spectrier is paired with a Pokemon carrying Toxic, and Disable ruins both Ghost resists.

 

[Jordy]

Following the last update to the VR, we noticed that there was a pretty big imbalance between the upper ranks; A+ was incredibly bloated, while A- was quite deflated. As such, we set out to fix that this time around. The votes can be found here.

Rises:
Magearna from A+ to S
Slowbro from A+ to S
Mega Tyranitar from A to A+
Spectrier from A- to A+
Tapu Fini from A- to A
Gastrodon from B+ to A-
Tapu Koko from B+ to A-
Melmetal from B to B+
Moltres from C to B-
Mega Garchomp from UR to B-
Galarian Slowking from UR to C

Drops:
Clefable from S to A+
Gliscor from A+ to A
Landorus-T from A+ to A
Mega Medicham from A+ to A
Weavile from A+ to A
Zapdos from A+ to A
Aegislash from A to A-
Ash-Greninja from A to A-
Kartana from A to A-
Mega Lopunny from A to A-
Reuniclus from A to A-
Mega Slowbro from A to B+
Excadrill from A- to B+
Mega Latios from B+ to B
Mega Sableye from B+ to B
Mega Venusaur from B+ to B
Rotom-H from B to B-
Volcarona from B to B-
Mega Aerodactyl from B- to C

A lot of these were minor rises and drops that helped redefine the VR, so I don't think there's that much to go over, but there's definitely a couple interesting things to talk about.


Spectrier has since its last rise only further solidified just how good it as a Pokemon and what kind of polarizing presence it is in the National Dex metagame. You run one of Mega Tyranitar, Tyranitar, or specially defensive Hydreigon and otherwise outright lose. The fact that it is such a polarizing threat, combined with just how splashable it is as speed control surely makes it worthy of its rank in A+.


As the metagame continues to evolve, Ash-Greninja keeps finding itself in a worse and worse spot. It still struggles against Blissey balance teams quite heavily, unless its running U-turn, in which case it's not running Spikes, which really dampens the reasons to even use it. Beyond that, it also lost a lot of utility as a Mega Latias check, now that it commonly runs Aura Sphere. Players are finding less and less reason to use Ash-Greninja in today's metagame and this drop reflects that.


Mega Garchomp has finally refound some of its viability with its relatively new access to Scale Shot. The combination of Scale Shot to boost its Speed, access to Swords Dance, its high Attack stat, and good offensive typing, it is a decent threat on hyper offensive teams. Unfortunately, it is really held back by the inconsistency of Scale Shot and its initial Speed tier is oftentimes still quite disappointing. Finding good turns to use Swords Dance can be a little tough too. We believe that Mega Garchomp fits in quite nicely with the rest of B-.

 

[LORD SAGIS]

UR > C
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 204 Def / 52 SpD
Calm Nature
IVs: 12 Spe
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Dragon Tail
- Teleport

While Slowbro is great on Balance and BO. I've found Slowking quite decent on Offensive teams to its access to Dragon Tail and higher SpD allowing it to Teleport on Pokemon that Slowbro can't. Because offensive teams like to play fast Slack Off has no use and Dragon Tail is excellent as it allows it to always have the advantage over Slowbro when facing each other. EVs let Slowking take less than half from Pursuit from Mega Tyranitar and potentially being able to burn and being able to switch out even if it only comes back at like 34%.

I used Slowking in my Playoffs game here.

If I changed anything on the VR. I'd personally rise Hydreigon to A because its Defog set is pretty common at the moment with everyone looking for Dark type as Spectrier is just too popular to lose to. I would also drop Rotom-H to C its just not worth using anymore but it still a fine Cinderace answer I guess. I would also nom Zarude and Quagsire to be ranked somewhere but I don't think I have enough experience with them so I'll let someone else do it.

 

[Ruft]

UR > C
Slowking @ Heavy-Duty Boots
Ability: Regenerator
EVs: 252 HP / 244 Def / 12 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 12 Spe
- Scald
- Future Sight
- Dragon Tail / Thunder Wave
- Teleport

While Slowbro is great on Balance and BO. I've found Slowking quite decent on Offensive teams thanks to its great mixed bulk allowing to Teleport on Pokemon that Slowbro can't. Because offensive teams like to play fast Slack Off has no use so you can use whatever in that slot but I like Dragon Tail being able to screw over other Slowbros. However Thunder Wave is probably the best option to cripple Mega Latias and Greninja. EVs let Slowking live a Spell Tag Shadow Ball from Aegislash from full.

I used Slowking in my Playoffs game here.

If I changed anything on the VR. I'd personally rise Hydreigon to A because its Defog set is pretty common at the moment with everyone looking for Dark type as Spectrier is just too popular to lose to. I would also drop Rotom-H to C its just not worth using anymore but it still a fine Cinderace answer I guess. I would also nom Zarude and Quagsire to be ranked somewhere but I don't think I have enough experience with them so I'll let someone else do it.

I haven't played NatDex in a while, but I wanted to point something out regarding Slowking that you may or may not be aware of. The stats of Slowking with a considerable amount of physical defensive investment can be replicated by Slowbro. This 252 HP / 244+ Def / 12 SpD Slowking for instance has the exact same stats as 252 HP / 4+ Def / 252 SpD Slowbro. What I'm getting at is that if you want to nom Slowking to be ranked, it should be specifically on the basis of sets with enough Special Defense investment that it can't be replicated by Slowbro (>284 raw SpD) or utilizing its few exclusive moves, notably Dragon Tail which, to your credit, you did mention. Just something to consider in regards to this nom.

EDIT: The spread was edited so now I look like a dumbass

 

[Avaritia]

Hi everyone, so this is one of the first few detailed posts I've made regarding this tier and my first time detailing my opinion about this Pokemon, but I've opined it off-hand for a while so I wanted to write my thoughts down about the grass monkey himself, Rillaboom. (Not gonna really double-check this as much because I think it's kinda long as it is so apologies in advance.)



B+ > A-/A

Personally, seeing it in B+ and B has kind of thrown me off for a long while. At the risk of overselling him, Rillaboom to me is one of the most powerful Pokemon in the tier, and I'd like to nominate him to an A, or at least an A-, rank. The set I think is its best is its Swords Dance set, a set that at this point is not only a staple on HO but also a set I find myself slapping onto a bunch of teams. You probably already know what it is, but just for reference's sake:

Swords Dance Rillaboom

Rillaboom @ Life Orb
Ability: Grassy Surge
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Grassy Glide
- Superpower
- Knock Off
- Swords Dance

I'll begin by saying that Rillaboom hits a sort of Goldilocks zone in terms of its speed and what can possibly answer it - almost every faster offensive Pokemon that doesn't resist it cowers at the thought of even an unboosted Grassy Glide, and a ton of defensive Pokemon either just gets slapped by Glide anyway or risks switching into SD before getting outsped next turn and taking massive damage from one of its coverage moves. Alternatively, they could fail to OHKO, so Rillaboom can set up again and then go for the kill on the next turn. Let's just do some simple calculations for some of its most common switch-ins:

Some calculations

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 266-315 (66.5 - 78.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
0 Atk Corviknight Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 252-296 (73.9 - 86.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Corviknight: 399-471 (99.7 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 243-287 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
0 Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 102-120 (29.9 - 35.1%) -- guaranteed 4HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 248 HP / 16+ Def Scizor-Mega: 365-430 (106.4 - 125.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 250-295 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
0 SpA Zapdos Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Rillaboom: 222-262 (65.1 - 76.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+4 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 252 HP / 184+ Def Zapdos: 374-441 (97.3 - 114.8%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

0 SpA Latias-Mega Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Rillaboom: 126-148 (36.9 - 43.4%) -- 99.5% chance to 3HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Knock Off vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Latias-Mega: 335-395 (92 - 108.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 432-510 (122.7 - 144.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
+2 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 322-380 (88.4 - 104.3%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
+1 252+ Atk Life Orb Rillaboom Superpower vs. 92 HP / 0 Def Mawile-Mega: 225-265 (85.2 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO (if switch-in before Mega-evolution only)

(Also, yes, it may look like cheating to use +4 calculations in this justification, but given that some of these switch-ins give Rilla the opportunity to SD twice before attacking, these scenarios are that are not totally out of the equation. Also admittedly Rilla isn't always getting a free SD, but nevertheless I feel like it's relatively easy to find a spot to click it and start sweeping, especially on HO where it needs to function at +2.)

With the correct play, there are few reliable answers to Rillaboom, the few that come to mind being Kommo-o, Venusaur-Mega, and Moltres (but even that has to be wary of its boots getting Knocked). All the common chip-damage switch-ins get close to perishing or straight-up perish after a super-effective hit (Hippowdon, Ferrothorn), and the offensive switch-ins die on entry if the Rillaboom player predicts with a coverage move (the Charizards, Cinderace, Kartana). In return, Rillaboom offers the team so much, shutting down common Water-type and Ground-type threats, offensive and defensive alike (meaning it seriously carries its weight vs Rain and Sand teams), carrying an extremely strong priority to neutralize fast offensive Pokemon like Spectrier, and just overall being a fantastic wallbreaker - notably for the common BlissBro core - that almost everything in the tier has to worry about taking a hit from. Not to mention, Grassy Surge can be invaluable in for deflating Earthquake for some of its common core partners like Magnezone and Heatran.

And this is only talking about its SD set: its Choice Band set hits even harder immediately and can straight up kill some resists such as Cinderace with Wood Hammer, while also being able to provide pivoting support in U-Turn. There are also some fringe sets like Darkinium Z that also can be taken into account, but to me really the main set that Rillaboom thrives as is the SD set and to a slightly smaller extent the CB set as well.

Of course I'm not here to argue that Rillaboom is the most formidable Pokemon in the tier. It is susceptible to being worn down by chip somewhat easily especially by LO damage, it is easily shut down by status (that can be even inflicted on mere contact, e.g. on Zapdos), it can be revenge-killed or overwhelmed by some Pokemon's offensive presence like Z-Move Landorus-Therian and Weavile, its 125 attack is admittedly not great and needs the SD to really get into gear which it may not have the opportunity to click, and above all, it needs Grassy Surge to truly function, which leaves it open and somewhat defenseless after a few turns or post-Tapu-switch-in. But nevertheless, I think that Rillaboom is an excellent offensive powerhouse, is surprisingly splashable, offers great utility to most teams, and on the correct team and with correct play can absolutely demolished unprepared opposing teams.

Let me know if there's something I'm missing. I'm fully aware that I might be overselling him and there are more weak points than I'm seeing, but the bottom line is that I think the value it adds to a team is definitely underrepresented by him residing in B+, and I think it really deserves a rise in the ranks - and has been for quite a while.

 

[Jordy]

If you wish for a Pokemon to rise, you should really tell us something new. We know Grassy Glide is a good move and that Choice Band Rillaboom breaks necks, that's why it's ranked in B+ after all. What has changed in the current metagame that makes Rillaboom deserving of a rise? I'm much more interested in the analysis of trends than stating the obvious, already known facts.

 

[FireFern]

Ok, so I'm pretty sure that the Rillaboom noms above were trying to say that Rillaboom shouldn't have been B+ in the first place (which I agree with), but here are some things in the meta that Rillaboom likes:

• Tyranitar being better means that it gets used more often which means more setup and/or pivot opportunities for Rillaboom. Defensive Hydreigon being a thing is also nice since I'm pretty sure it's just setup fodder (unless it Defogs terrain away).
• Revenge killing Spectrier not behind a sub is nice.
• Cinderace staying is good for Rillaboom since they can form a pretty good offensive core. Cinderace can scare out Tangrowth, Mega Scizor and Corviknight, and Rillaboom can scare out Toxapex, Slowbro, Gliscor, and Landorus-Therian.
• Destroys Slowbro+Blissey.
• It slightly appreciates Volcarona and Rotom-Heat being bad now though neither were very good answers to it.
• Rillaboom is awesome on hyper offense which I heard is really good right now.

 

[Avaritia]

My sentiments are definitely as reflected by FireFern in that Rillaboom should be higher than B+ given the assets it can bring to a team. I don't see why its drawbacks, which I mentioned in my write-up previously, are so limiting that it would belong in B+. It's a reasoning that I personally cannot see and would honestly like to be enlightened on.

Regardless, in relation to the metagame trends, I suppose one thing is that very few Pokemon in the meta really can reliably switch into Rillaboom while simultaneously don't risk getting set-up on and killed or traded off (the latter examples including Corviknight, Scizor-Mega). Tangrowth is really the only one that is A- or above that fits this description, excluding pure checks/revenge killers such as Cinderace and Weavile. A well-played Toxapex could also prove to be a nuisance as well, but without Baneful Bunker it probably cannot 1v1 it. The rest are as currently at best as viable as Rillaboom, but all of them don't really like the trends in the current metagame to some extent. Venusaur-Mega, Amoonguss and Kommo-o both hate seeing Pokemon like Medicham-Mega and Latias-Mega being popular, Charizard-Mega-Y is honestly pretty good but dislikes seeing the ever-common Blissey (and will get smacked by a stray Knock Off if not careful, anyway), Moltres and Rotom-Heat are just crushed by Tyranitar (which I feel will only keep rising in popularity until a certain horse is addressed).

Meanwhile, my perception is that Ground-types such as Gliscor have been made staple on many teams in order to deal with Cinderace as well as serving as Volt blockers, particularly against the rising Tapu Koko (honestly I have no clue why Gliscor and Landorus-Therian dropped, but I digress). As a consequence Water-types such as Slowbro and Tapu Fini are also becoming more common to help with these match-ups. Rillaboom can kill both of these birds in one stone, while also flexing its muscle versus some rising threats like Tyranitar, and also being one of the most excellent partners for Cinderace, Heatran and Magearna, all of which I feel have been increasingly become more powerful and more splashable onto teams but hate seeing the Ground-types that Rillaboom eats for dinner like Garchomp.

I just feel like most of the time making teams it is just super easy to put on a Rillaboom for what it provides, even beyond HO - where I think it's basically become a staple. Just being able to shut down almost every Ground-type and Water-type in the tier while being difficult to switch into puts so much pressure on the opposing team. It can either punch holes where a Pokemon like Spectrier can just clean up late-game, or even just clean-up by itself lategame if annoying Pokemon like Zapdos are taken out of the equation - which most teams don't seem to have more than 1 of.

Hope this is a reasonable elaboration

 

[Zobirisking]

Mega Sableye is a little bit underrated in my opinion for a few reasons.
I wanna talk about the Calm Mind set here.

Sableye (Sableye-Mega) (M) @ Sablenite
Ability: Prankster
Shiny: Doesn't matter
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Will-O-Wisp (to burn the target)
- Hex (to make some damage)
- Recover (to get 50% of the max hp back)
- Calm Mind (to rise up it's special stats)

This set is here to burn every physical attacker and set up itself so that is able to start a sweep. This set defeats the most physical attackers like Landorus, Scizor and Garchomp with it's great physical bulk and Will-O-Wisp. If it used a Calm Mind without taking damage, Pokemons like Tapu Koko, Greninja, Tapu Fini and Spectrier can't 2 hit ko it without an Item help like Choise Specs or Life Orb. This set is very surprising and extremely difficult to defeat if the other player hasn't got a fairy mon which can hit very hard like Magearna or Tapu Lele. If this thing uses the right move in the right moment, it can become a monster. Every physical attacker that can be burned must be very careful.

Here is a Replay that shows what happens when you misclick one time against this Sableye set:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen8nationaldex-1241797331-jt7sx02e0w5u2hdyjuzaoo6btvzmg8gpw

And now I will call some reasons why mega Sableye deserves to rise up to A- in the viability ranking:

• The fact that Cinderace stays in national dex is extremely good for Sableye, because Cinderace can easily kill fairy types with Gunk shot or Pyro Ball and it can U turn out and bringing in Sableye in the right moment.
• Magearna is one of the best Sableye checks which isn't a problem anymore, because Magearna will be suspected very soon and it will very likely be banned from national dex, which means that there is 1 less check against Sableye. This also applies for Spectrier.
• Mega Latias is also an extremely strong pokemon since it got Aura Sphere, which is great for Sableye, because Latias usually does nothing against it, because it runs Psyshock and Aura Sphere as offensive moves.
• Since we have got Spectrier in this metagame, Tyranitar and it's Mega Evolution got way popular, which is very helpfull for Sableye, because it can easily burn Tyranitar and it does very less damage against Sableye.

Thanks for reading and have a nice day.

 

[Jordy]

Mega Sableye should definitely not rise, especially not on the basis of the Calm Mind set that nobody except for you runs Zobirisking. Arguments like "Magearna will be gone soon" are not 100% true and don't apply to the current situation. The actuality of things right now is what's relevant when nominating a Pokemon.

Maybe if cores like Blissey + Mega Mawile, Blissey + Magearna, as well as some Pokemon like Toxapex and Calm Mind Clefable weren't so common Calm Mind Mega Sableye could be considered a legitimate threat. But that is not the case. Mega Sableye's only real niche is on stall, which is generally not too good right now because of the excessive amount of matchups that those teams need to cover. That is why it is currently B rank and I do not think there's any argument to have Mega Sableye rise right now.


Moving on, I personally think that Rillaboom is fine in B+. Tangrowth being much worse than it has ever been certainly helps, but it is still true that Rillaboom is generally an inconsistent threat. Pokemon like Corviknight, Mega Scizor, Zapdos, and Mega Latias are very common and there's honestly not too much that Rillaboom can aim to do against them. At best, it can cripple Zapdos with Knock Off and U-turn into Magnezone against Corviknight and Mega Scizor, but that's exactly what holds Choice Band Rillaboom back: its reliance on support. At worst, it is outright walled by them throughout the entire game. Rillaboom is absolutely a staple on hyper offensive teams and 1 of the 2 Pokemon you'll practically always see on such teams, but ultimately, that's what makes it B+ in my eyes.

I suppose it is true that Rillaboom can take advantage of the increasing usage of certain Ground- and Water-types, and perhaps that should make it rise to A-, but I don't think it should rise any higher than that, if at all.

 

[MudkipBeans]

After a bit of play and some thought, I think that these mons should rise a bit on the viabiltiy rankings.



In a metagame with Shift Gear + CM Magearna and Cinderace running around, Moltres is able to effectively pivot on them and stop them with its defensive defog set. Cinderace risks getting burned if it goes for uturn, and Magearna can be stopped by spamming deceptively strong mystical fires. Its typing also provides it with the ability to check Charizard Y (Although it only stalls sun for a teamate) and a 4x grass resist to eat up banded Wood Hammers. It is even a terrific switch to Mega Mawile, as every time it attacks it risks a burn. It has to be afraid of Knock off of course, however pairing it with absorbers such as Mawile works just fine. Its also a nice defog option thats also walls offensive rocks Heatran, as Scorching Sands 2hkoes, and Heatran cannot effectively damage you back. With the rise of Mega Latias to be probably the best mega in the tier, and moltres giving it a free switch isnt exactly a positive, but what it provides for the majority of the metagame makes it a nice fit on teams it shows up on. This is why I think it'd merit a rise to B.


We know the power of its banded set, and with blissey and slowbro at an all time high, it absolutely demolishes those teams. With the use of defensive Hydreigon to try and handle Spectrier, Crawdaunt hardly even cares, as its still a 2hko on Max HP Hydreigon with rocks, meaning its forced to spam Roost:
252+ Atk Choice Band Adaptability Crawdaunt Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Hydreigon: 186-219 (47.9 - 56.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
With Tangrowth receiving much lower usage due to Cinderaces presence, and Toxapex being hit incredibly hard by its Knock Off as well, I think its appropriate to show an increase in viability. It even appreciates having Blissey and Slowbro on its team, giving it so many oppurtunities to wreak havoc on the enemy team, because hardly anything wants to switch in and lose its item. Of course, its frailty does hold it back, not actually threatening offensive Heatran and being quite slow vs opposing offense, but with teamates such as Mega lopunny gaining Uturn to facilitate it as well, I think it appropraite for it to rise to B-.


Ditto is Ditto, it does Ditto things, but maybe it can rise cuz it can potentially reverse sweep Spectrier teams, and also is one of the better revenge killers for Cinderace. I don't have much else to say cuz it's Ditto, but maybe B+ is appropriate.

 

[Fatty Rabbit]

Mega Sableye should definitely not rise, especially not on the basis of the Calm Mind set that nobody except for you runs Zobirisking. Arguments like "Magearna will be gone soon" are not 100% true and don't apply to the current situation. The actuality of things right now is what's relevant when nominating a Pokemon.

Maybe if cores like Blissey + Mega Mawile, Blissey + Magearna, as well as some Pokemon like Toxapex and Calm Mind Clefable weren't so common Calm Mind Mega Sableye could be considered a legitimate threat. But that is not the case. Mega Sableye's only real niche is on stall, which is generally not too good right now because of the excessive amount of matchups that those teams need to cover. That is why it is currently B rank and I do not think there's any argument to have Mega Sableye rise right now.


Moving on, I personally think that Rillaboom is fine in B+. Tangrowth being much worse than it has ever been certainly helps, but it is still true that Rillaboom is generally an inconsistent threat. Pokemon like Corviknight, Mega Scizor, Zapdos, and Mega Latias are very common and there's honestly not too much that Rillaboom can aim to do against them. At best, it can cripple Zapdos with Knock Off and U-turn into Magnezone against Corviknight and Mega Scizor, but that's exactly what holds Choice Band Rillaboom back: its reliance on support. At worst, it is outright walled by them throughout the entire game. Rillaboom is absolutely a staple on hyper offensive teams and 1 of the 2 Pokemon you'll practically always see on such teams, but ultimately, that's what makes it B+ in my eyes.

I suppose it is true that Rillaboom can take advantage of the increasing usage of certain Ground- and Water-types, and perhaps that should make it rise to A-, but I don't think it should rise any higher than that, if at all.

I do agree with how rillaboom is somewhat inconsistent and does rely on support to do its job. However, I really want to persuade you that the viability of a Pokémon should not be graded by just how overpowered it is by itself.
Rillaboom is the type of mon that hugely benefits from support.

Actually, the very moment it received grassy glide from the DLC, I already saw it as a top threat, and even broken at some point, yet smogon has put it in B or B+ ever since.

Yes, rillaboom cannot just sweep prepared teams on its own as it is easily walled by corviknight, mega scizor, mega Latias and it can also be punished by static or flame body from the birds.

As rillaboom has a tendency to either destroy mons that are neutral/weak to its STABs or get walled by resists. It forces a whole lot of switches and I would describe rillaboom’s synergy and reliance of support to be more extreme compared to most other mons.

While rillaboom needs support mons to help it wallbreak or clean late game, the reward is just drastically greater.

I only realised it while typing this but rillaboom actually benefits from most offensive partners in the tier, not just the ones described below.

Rillaboom’s undoubted best partner is cinderace, who is even easier to slap on teams, boasts an incredible speed tier, absurd coverage to defeat many of the aforementioned counters to rillaboom including using +1 gunk shots to pressure moltres. On the other hand, it benefits from rillaboom luring in the mons it can destroy and from grassy terrain, providing passive recovery and neutralises earthquake damage from scarf Landorus T.

Cinderace sometimes also packs U turn to form a solid double u turn core with rillaboom and is not easily worn down due to grassy terrain and wearing heavy duty boots itself. In a way, cinderace’s success is partly due to rillaboom, though rillaboom definitely benefits more from cinderace.

Magnezone is also an incredible partner as it can trap and annihilate corviknight and other steel types after it lures it in and U turns. Shed bell? Rillaboom users can predict it and knock off first. Magnezone + rillaboom by itself is already a massive threat to the sample rain team.

Another excellent partner will be Normalium z kartana who is capable of dismantling zapdos/moltres and steel types cores for rillaboom to sweep late game.


How powerful is rillaboom when its checks are weakened ? Well well... I don’t have much to say here about grassy glide as the others have talked about it but please remember that cinderace is not a safe switch at all to a banded wood hammer. :)

I realised that the top S, A+, A etc mons are mostly from balance teams and most have a fairly good matchup against rillaboom so maybe that’s why the grass starter is rated so low?

While I agree that balance team is king in this meta, offensive teams are still very popular, especially on ladder, and have a worse matchup when facing rillaboom as these faster, frailer mons are often outright destroyed or threatened out by grassy glide.

If the tier list is simply based by having balanced teams on the top of the list, I think it is quite narrow minded.

Overall, YES 100%, rillaboom requires support but we really should not just think of the situation as other mons contributing for rilla. Not only does rillaboom provide passive recovery , but it also forces switches, giving opportunities for other mons like magnezone to do their job more properly.

As with many others, I believe that Rillaboom’s powerful attacks and incredible synergy with other top tier mons gives it a place in A- or maybe even A.

 

[Zneon]

Mega Latios to B-

I don't think Mega Latios is doing hot right now. It has way too much competition for a mega slot, mostly being shafted for Mega Latias, who has much more defensive utility because of its better bulk, Mega Latios is forced into a mixed attacker set which doesn't work because of its moveslot issues. It wants Psyshock for Blissey which doesn't even 2HKO and is beaten by Bold Clefable so it wants Psychic for that, Earthquake for Heatran and Magearna, Ice Beam for Landorus-T, Gliscor and Garchomp, Thunderbolt for Corviknight and Slowbro, Mystical Fire for Mega Scizor, Aura Sphere for Tyranitar forms and Ferrothorn etc. Its moveslot issues make me feel that it chooses which matchups it wants to lose against, coupled with its insane mega competition and trends like the prominence of Pursuit as well as the prominence of Magearna and Spectrier, Mega Latios just feels very hard to justify or make consistent use out of, thus I feel it should drop.