May 2012 Usage Stats

[Ray Jay]

Natu is used because it's just a great pivot and is extremely useful on offensive teams rather than having to pack a cleric, spinner, status absorber, etc. on to the team. You can't really compare natu with things like drillbur or timburr tbh as they have completely different roles.

I disagree. First off, people greatly overestimate Natu's support to the team. If Natu is repeatedly bouncing moves back, it risks taking hits which it can't really do all that well. Furthermore, it can't be used in place of a spinner and status absorber, as many people claim. Let me explain. If I'm using the combo of Natu + Larvesta, I have no way of removing SR if I make a mistake (we all do, even with Natu). If Lileep gets Toxiced because I make a mistake, I can't do anything about it.

Finally, I think macle has a point. You surely can compare the usage; Natu has an extremely niche role while Drilbur, Timburr, and Gastly are more broad useful Pokemon. It's ironic that Natu (a utility Pokemon) brings so little utility when compared to something such as Drilbur, that can take on a larger variety of threats. In other words, why is Natu (a Pokemon with such a specific purpose) higher in usage than Pokemon with broader usefulness?

 

[danilo]

idk man Natu is pretty nuts on offensive teams. All of the common Stealth Rock users can't do much to him. It's really difficulty to get rid of Natu without a series of well timed double switches, in my experience. Also, Natu is very important on offensive teams. Running Staryu is okay, but Misdreavus blocks your Rapid Spin, can take you out with a series of Shadow Balls or a Thunderbolt, and you have to rely on two Hydro Pump hits with Stealth Rock active in order to maybe get rid of hazards. On offensive teams, Natu can just switch into something like Ferroseed, bounce back a Leech Seed or something of that nature, and U-turn on the switch.

 

[iss]

Natu is frail though, and switches to Natu are just so incredibly obvious. Good players will easily take huge chunks off Natu with moves such as Dwebble's Rock Blast.

 

[blarajan]

Natu is just kind of bad honestly. Dwebble uses Rock Blast / Hippopotas uses Crunch or Roar (with Magic Bounce, it kind of just gives you a randomized U-Turn...it's really fun!) / Lileep uses HP Rock...etc. The only thing it really beats is Ferroseed and honestly that's not even that useful. I don't like Natu lol.

 

[danilo]

Most Hippo's use Roar, Dwebble is rather uncommon, and I haven't seen many HP Rock Lileep. But i agree that Natu is really easy to play against.

 

[Superpowerdude]

Anyone that has played little cup for a week knows exactly what natu does and it becomes quite easy to counter sitautions like sending in bronzor then switching in something like a scarf chinchou or mienfoo that can volt switch or fake out +u turn succesfully. although i do feel natu has a place on some offensive teams as they cant dedicate a spot entry hazard poke and spinners.

 

[spuds4ever]

I think natu is only very easy and predictable to play against, myself, if you are over reliant on it. Using natu as your only method of keeping larvesta's face from being eaten by evil rocks is probably already over-reliant. I find natu's role is just a solid pivot that can give you back momentum against stall-based pokemon if you have a bit of prediction. Double-switches become predictable, and you find yourself once again on an equal contest of predictions with your opponent.

It's never going to be as dependable as staryu to keep off hazards or absorb status, but it's just so useful for keeping hazards off and preserving momentum for a good portion of the game which is invaluable for offensive teams.

 

[Ray Jay]

Speaking of removing hazards, I've been having trouble actually pulling off Staryu successfully. It may spin once or twice, but other than that it just feels like dead weight. With Croagunk, Lileep, Chinchou, Ferroseed, and even stuff such as Porygon, Mienfoo, and Scraggy so high, it's really pretty tough imo to pull off successfully. I tried a defensive spread at one point; it got smashed. What do you guys think of Staryu? Personally, I can't reconcile it in my mind other than by the fact that it is probably still the best spinner.

 

[blarajan]

Drilbur's the best spinner, and don't you forget it. Staryu's got nothing on the cute little mole thing.

 

[spuds4ever]

Staryu, in my view, has always been a bit meh. It spins and absorbs status, but that's about it. I think the main problem is that pure water is just not really a good type to be in LC. There's so much that can take a hydro pump it's ridiculous as ray said. I think this just makes staryu unthreatening really. Whatever your two moves are on staryu, there's always going to be something that sets up like no tommorow on staryu. I think popularizing the LO spinner set could solve this. Just running something like hydro pump, HP grass/fire, thunderbolt/psychic, and spin would be much more threatening than the current eviolite set IMO. So I think staryu is still good, but it needs to adapt better to the current LC enviroment.

Drilbur's the best spinner, and don't you forget it. Staryu's got nothing on the cute little mole thing.

Only in sand IMO. Otherwise the most popular spin-blocker in the tier, misdreavus, takes a dump on you with will-o-wisp. Staryu is a better dedicated spinner, even if it can't sweep in my view.

 

[Heysup]

Speaking of removing hazards, I've been having trouble actually pulling off Staryu successfully. It may spin once or twice, but other than that it just feels like dead weight. With Croagunk, Lileep, Chinchou, Ferroseed, and even stuff such as Porygon, Mienfoo, and Scraggy so high, it's really pretty tough imo to pull off successfully. I tried a defensive spread at one point; it got smashed. What do you guys think of Staryu? Personally, I can't reconcile it in my mind other than by the fact that it is probably still the best spinner.

How do those mons stop you from spinning? If you're using Rapid Spin obviously you sacrifice coverage TO spin.

 

[Ray Jay]

How do those mons stop you from spinning? If you're using Rapid Spin obviously you sacrifice coverage TO spin.

They don't stop me from spinning if they switch in (unless it's Misdreavus). Basically, I find that my Staryu becomes dead weight because all it does is spin. In other words, I've found that my teams that aren't weak to hazards are doing much better because I don't have to pack Staryu, if that makes sense.

 

[Trakyan]

i dont see the issues with natu's bulk, its the same as mienfoo except without regenerator and with another good ability and an instant recovery move. iirc hippo's crunch is a 3HKO on bulky natus.

 

[Ray Jay]

i dont see the issues with natu's bulk, its the same as mienfoo except without regenerator and with another good ability and an instant recovery move. iirc hippo's crunch is a 3HKO on bulky natus.

It's also weak to SR, so if you make one mispredict and SR gets up then you are bummed. Also, it doesn't have the Speed to Roost / Wish against Misdreavus and Murkrow. Finally, you kinda answered your own point when you said it doesn't have Regenerator; Regenerator is the whole reason for Mienfoo's bulk. Auto recovery is better than a recovery move in this meta, apparently.

 

[spuds4ever]

Natu doesn't really need bulk as it will only be taking moves from hazard setters which at realistically worst will be dwebble's rock blast (which I believe natu can still survive while still hitting 17 speed). I understand why people would dislike him but he's just dedicating a team-slot to hazards effectively like dwebble or hazards omanyte when you look back at it and for many teams, having SR off the field is more important than having it on.

 

[iss]

The problem with Natu is that it relies on your opponent making mistakes, not your own skill. Natu simply will not be able to bounce back anything once you start facing better players on ladder.

 

[spuds4ever]

Of course you can't expect to get bounce the hazards back on the opponent's side, team preview will warn any good player to be careful before setting up hazards. It just becomes a bit of a prediction war against your opponent, just like using a rapid spinner. If you have staryu out and you know your opponent has misdreavus and said pokemon that can normally switch in easily and threaten staryu (say chinchou), then you still have to predict if your opponent is going to expect the spin or the hydro pump.

It's really not that different from spinning, it just trades off not having to spend a turn keeping the hazards off for not being able to take them off if you mis-predict.

 

[Heysup]

Except the Pokemon that use Rapid Spin don't suck balls like Natu. I think that's the bigger issue, not that Magic Bounce is better or worse than spinning, but that you have to use natu instead of something like Staryu.

Then again, with Natu you don't have to "worry" about ghosts. Still, I have a hard time sacrificing one Pokemon at all ever for any one single purpose that it's not really good at.

 

[spuds4ever]

I think you can argue for that point. It's far from useless, though, flying is generally a good typing in LC, and when you consider that it often doesn't have to worry too much about SR, it still has viable uses. For example it still smacks the likes of timburr and croagunk badly as well as threatening larvesta and mienfoo from switching in which can actually be surprisingly handy.

Idk, staryu's never really seemed threatening before and it doesn't really wall anything. Maybe that will change if the LO set is popularized as I said in my earlier post. I won't declare that staryu is worse than natu when you look past magic bounce and rapid spin, but staryu has plenty of flaws itself.

 

[danilo]

spuds, Natu is a mediocre Pokemon outside of Magic Bounce. Timburr and Croagunk can do serious damage to Natu on a switch with Payback or Shadow Ball; the latter Pokemon nets a 2HKO with Shadow Ball while the former can hit hard with Payback on the switch, Bulk Up has Natu is forced to Roost, and then Natu is forced to choose between doing no damage and using Feather Dance or trying for a 3HKO with HP Flying. Also, Natu can't really switch into Mienfoo as it just gets 2HKO'd by Stone Edge. Although I like Natu, you can't really expect it to counter many of the Pokemon you listed in your post. It's a mediocre check at best.

 

[spuds4ever]

So he isn't the best check out there to timburr and croagunk (and I didn't actually say it could switch in on mienfoo), but I still think that being nearly untouchable from a lot of wallish pokemon (or at least being able to stall them out) and even discouraging them from using most non-offensive moves just by existing deserves a bit of credit.

But seriously, what does staryu check? Hippopotas, Slowpoke and houndour are really the only things off the top of my head I can think of, and it doesn't even do the latter that well due to having to switch in possibly on a strong neutral move and play the sucker punch game. Even the likes of ponyta and larvesta aren't really checked as the former is always running sunny day and the latter is u-turning 80% of the time.

Yes, you're right, natu is a bit mediocre, but tbh, is there a hazards remover that isn't? Though I think I may give kabuto another spin (pun very much intended) and see how he does.

 

[blarajan]

Staryu's amazing lol. Drilbur's absolutely amazing. Shellder is quite good. Kabuto is okay. Tentacool is passable. Pineco is passable. Sandshrew is passable. Anorith is mediocre. Baltoy is mediocre. Squirtle is mediocre. Tyrogue is disgusting. Natu is shit.

Is how it stands, pretty much.

Yeah I would probably prefer using Squirtle than Natu. Reason: it's just not effective in removing hazards. You can't always switch it in, and you'll never predict 100% properly in keeping off SR or Spikes. When you fuck up ONCE, you can never fix your mistake with Natu. At least with Rapid Spin, you can remove them at any point in the match. Natu's a "play right and hope you don't mess up, else you're fucked" sort of thing. Relying on Natu is stupid. Plus, if Dwebble's the hazard setter you're initially lost from the get go, which just isn't good.

 

[spuds4ever]

The problem with rapid spin is that it's very difficult to find a turn to spin without losing your mon. As well as this, having a spinner on your team won't discourage your opponent from getting hazards up (unless you're running something like suicide dwebble with no spin-blocker, which is stupid). It's not hard to keep a spinner out.

Pretty much every spinner you listed is threatened by every offensive pokemon in the top 20 in usage. All your opponent has to do is keep offensive pokemon out and force switches and you may as well have no spinner at all. It's easily argueable that spinning requires just as much of a mistake on your opponent's side as magic bouncing does.

Yes, relying on Natu is stupid, but Natu is much better thought of as a bonus "no hazards for a good portion of the match" than a spinner which is "Hope your opponent doesn't keep up any offensive pressure and don't switch a lot", at least in my experience. I'm not going to lie, natu is never going to be as useful late-game as a spinner, as the opponent can't keep offensive pressure up forever, but by the time your opponent is forced to bring out defensive pokemon, the damage from the hazards may well already be done, though. But that's why natu should only be used for offensive teams and players should make the most of the momentum and temporary safety-net that it provides for the team.

 

[iss]

I can't see how spinning is hard. Get a switchin on a favorable matchup, like Hippopotas or Mienfoo, use Rapid Spin. If they have a Ghost, just use Hydro Pump or Thunderbolt on the switch. Much much easier than having to predict perfectly with Natu every time a hazard setter comes in.

 

[spuds4ever]

I can't see how spinning is hard. Get a switchin on a favorable matchup, like Hippopotas or Mienfoo, use Rapid Spin. If they have a Ghost, just use Hydro Pump or Thunderbolt on the switch. Much much easier than having to predict perfectly with Natu every time a hazard setter comes in.

Trying to spin on mienfoo is not going to be without taking a lot of damage, and certainly not little enough so you can switch in again. Once you've got SR up, a player doesn't really need to switch into hippo again generally. Again, if they have a ghost and your opponent is presumably as good as you are, it's going to be an equal mind game. Will he go to missy or said pokemon that can threaten my spinner? And there are still things that wall staryu, even with h-pump and t-bolt, like cursed body frillish with a little luck. Spinning also completely kills your own momentum. For offensive teams, natu is just more appealing in a lot of respects IMO.