Metagame LC Suspect - BLACK BALLOON - Drifloon is banned!

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mad0ka

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I'd just like to point out, really only Drilbur as a spinner is hindered by Drifloon. Staryu can get around Drifloon with either ice beam/thunderbolt/thunder wave, and Drifloon also can't switch safely into other niche spinners like Anorith or Kabuto. Also, defog is still a viable move on the likes of Vullaby and Archen.

Sure, Drifloon is a great spinblocker, but that's because of Drilbur previously being the predominant spinner and Staryu using Psychic primarly as its coverage move. Drifloon really only spinblocks Drilbur and one set of Staryu, I still believe the reason it's able to fulfill that spinblocker support role so well is because people don't want to account for this new threat and make changes. (that's all I just wanted to nitpick this one point)
 

San Tomas

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when you post that you can use shinx and litwick to counter floon, you remind me of bri saying that people can use elegyem and execute to counter meditite
at least bri spelled them right

ALSO

I really like Life Orb Staryu for its ability to lure in Drifloons trying to spinblock. I prefer Ice Beam over Tbolt so that I can slay Foongus and other lil Grass-type mons.
 
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doomsday doink

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Not sure about Elygem but Bj Shinx is legit
how is a crappy niche check to drifloon legit? Can you expand on this?
As much as we all encourage Rumor, Shinx is legitimately a bad Pokemon. A number of the Pokemon you guys are listing are barely viable even with Drifloon in the metagame. You have to take note of the fact that not every opponent is packing a Drifloon and Shinx / Larvitar are not going to carry their weight at all in most matches. As for the other Pokemon being mentioned, Hippopotas and Vullaby don't enjoy getting burned and phazing Drifloon out simply delays the inevitable. If you use Omanyte as an answer to Drifloon, you're forfeiting a solid win condition to only halt your opponent's support Pokemon from crippling other Pokemon on your team. Hell, Fletchling is maybe a good means of revenging Drifloon if you can break its sub but it's most likely going to get burned - if a player knows what they're doing with Drifloon, you should never get a different Pokemon in without Drifloon getting to full health or setting up a Substitute. There's also the issue of 1/2 the Pokemon you listed that can actually do their job are prime Diglett bait. Taillow is really cool though, I've been using it a lot lately and it can actually function outside of stopping Drifloon. Houndour / Amaura are decent as well but much less effective if your opponent isn't abusing Drifloon. I guess my point is don't list niche af Pokemon as a reason why Drifloon should not be banned; if I'm forced to run stuff like Shinx and Litwick to deal with Drifloon, I don't want it in the metagame anymore.
 

Camden

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Shinx is not a good Pokemon. At the very most, Shinx is a subpar Snubbull. It has less bulk, power, and coverage. The only job it can even do reliably is somewhat check Flying-types, but even that it can struggle with, as bulkier Flying-types can just click Roost a few times until Shinx is worn down enough and Drifloon can just stall it out with its usual shenanigans.

Look, I'm all in favour of discovering new cool sets and stuff that be become potentially new threats to the metagame, but many of the "solutions" posted in this thread to handle Drifloon either don't do it well, do it well and nothing else, or simply shouldn't because they have another job. This is all very similar to when Bri listed off a ton of terrible Meditite checks, because before that I wasn't totally convinced of Meditite's status in the metagame, but it seems that Drifloon is having a similar effect. Keep in mind that when you discuss a large metagame threat such as Drifloon, the examples you should be using on how to handle it should be relevant in some way, and Shinx isn't an example of that.
 

Rumor

when bae sees your sketchers light up
ok since none of you seem to understand how good of pokemon Shinx actually is, let me paint you a picture


as you can clearly see illustrated in this picture, we have the two most overpowered pokemon in the tier: Drifloon and Mienfoo. Mienfoo's OP cuz he can have regenerator and has an op movepool such as high jump kick and uturn and knock off, should've been banned like 3 suspects ago. Then you see the balloon (not as op as mienfoo), hes op because he can just keep recycling his berry juice and is only countered by two pokemon. One of those is the child of the 2nd most op pokemon in history, Chinchou. Chinchou's alright and all, can be a cleric and a sweeper. but not as good as SHINX!

Carefully masterpieced in this art, i have created the most ideal scenario, in which you can clearly see Shinx intimidating drifloon and mienfoo, rendering them useless.


Mark (Shinx) @ Berry Juice
Ability: Intimidate
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 76 Atk / 244 Def / 4 SpD
Relaxed Nature
- Fire Fang
- Thief
- Volt Switch
- Toxic

This moveset was oh so carefully thought out by yours truly, allow me to go more in depth. Intimidate is the key asset of Shinx, otherwise it'd clearly be a useless pokemon judging by its stats. Intimidate allows to to check certain fighting and flying type pokemon, allowing shinx to come in and destroy their souls. Fire Fang is for those nasty Pawniards, Magnemites and ferroseeds. It used to be Wild Charge in this slot, but i figured Fire Fang would be more useful. Now here's the second crown jewel of the set: Thief. Thief allows it to recover its berry juice if it were to get knocked off by opposing Exodias Mienfoos. It also allows to to steal other items if its were to get knocked off. Volt Switch is for momentum if opposing threats were to come into play, but thats impossible because the only threat to Shinx is, well, another Shinx. Final move is toxic, in case theres an annoying Shellos or Chinchou or maybe even a healbell less Spritzee, but all in all its a very well thought out moveset.

Everybody likes to criticize Shinx, but in reality, its not that bad of a pokemon. How do you think i've climbed so high on the suspect ladder? Das right, i used Shinx to climb all the way up to 2700 COIL, and theres nothing stopping me now
 

churine

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And to think that this suspect test may have not happened had we banned Diglett beforehand. Simply because a lot of Drifloon's checks are checked by Diglett. While Diglett may not have the best defenses & can only switch in on Electric, he can trap almost all of Drifloon checks then proceed to kill them with an Earthquake.
 

Corporal Levi

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Why pick on vubon's post repeatedly when he was clearly trying to make a joke? Nobody's forcing anybody to use Shinx and Litwick to counter Drifloon, but if you insist on looking at infamy's list and picking out the least common choices for your team then I won't try and stop you. And there really isn't any need to compare vubon or infamy to briyella, they've already admitted to being male.

Drifloon has a few hard checks and counters, but the only Pokemon in LC that have more than a few hard checks and counters are either defensive in nature or Fletchling. Drifloon carries weaknesses to common coverage moves and does not carry Eviolite, so it only switches into actual defensive Pokemon and support Drilbur safely; despite how many turns Drifloon can last, it is not a good Pokemon defensively. No Pokemon has anywhere close to Fletchling's overall sweeping potential, including Drifloon because it does not have a priority STAB move or Swords Dance.

Drifloon has a low opportunity cost, but floondig certainly does not. Drifloon and Diglett themselves both offer very little defensive presence. Drifloon being unable to actually get Diglett in safely means that it isn't a good sweeper to rely on, but if you want to take advantage of the core's supporting capabilities then you're required to run a proper win condition, which also probably won't be very valuable defensively. Having two or three Pokemon that do almost nothing to stop the most common sweepers leaves you with plenty of gaps for powerful opposing offensive cores to exploit. There are good floondig teams out there but they aren't better than other solid builds.

A Pokemon having little risk and lots of reward on paper is not something new to LC. Abra, Mienfoo, and Porygon have plenty to offer and little to no drawbacks. In fact, most of the other S and A+ ranked and a few mid A Pokemon (including Drifloon) are quite easy to argue for having such great strengths that there isn't any reason not to include them. However, none of them in particular is overcentralizing because they all have to compete with each other for six slots. That's why Drifloon has never been and will probably never be the most used Pokemon in ORAS LC; its low opportunity cost is exceptional, but not that exceptional.
 
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Coconut

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For everyone that's panicking because they don't have reqs yet, I will be hosting a suspect tour tomorrow, Sunday at 9 PM EST!
 
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sam-testings

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I want to point out something that a lot of us have been forgetting, and that is what happens after drifloon is dead? Drifloon on average burns 2 mons a game, and not many mons exactly appreciate burns. Quite literally every single check listed in the list enjoys being burnt with the exception of Houndoor which is pretty frail and probably dies to acro after rocks. Restalk Chou can deal with burns, but then it is asleep which makes it unreliable and easier to kill off. Drifloons support options are also quite nice, being able to knock off bulky mons that can switch into it such as Spritzee and Porygon. Basically, Drifloon is very good at softening up teams for other mons to deal with, making it not only a good sweeper but also a good support mon that can assist sweeps such as shell smashers and dragon dancers.

Also just to touch on those long lists of "checks" that people keep bringing up (this is Vubons list). Taillow cannot really touch Drifloon if it isnt scrappy which means that it cant use guts. Larvitar and Shinx are both jokes, please dont actually use them. Every infiltrator mon is pretty much a joke and should never be used (love noibat). Nosepass is pretty bad. The only vullaby that can deal with Drifloon well is nasty plot, which becomes very easy to counter once Nasty Plot is revealed. Also, Vullaby will be put on a timer being burnt, forcing it to either switch out or not be able to sweep well. yamask is bad. Elekid while very good and underrated dislikes being burnt a lot because it relies on life orb for damage and will be able to be whittled down super easily. Helioptile and manectric both are bad. Bronzor should really never be used in a non Gligar meta. SD Pawniard is cute, but then is probably forced out next turn and is crippled the rest of the round. Now of course some of these can probably be able to take down Drifloon, but then they are either burnt or crippled with a combination of Knock, acro, or willowisp. Drifloon can switch into enough moves to be able to get its combo off such as Abra Psychic, various scald etc etc. Drifloon is like the 3rd most used mon in lcpl right now so arguing usage is pretty stupid.

sorry if this post is sloppy, may clean it up later

Edit: The main point i wanted to make was that Drifloon can not only sweep but support the rest of its team really really well, which what puts it over the line in my opinion. We should focus less on how to kill Drifloon and more on what Drifloons effects in a game are. Also, we all know what checks Drifloon, there wasnt really any need to post like 3 lists that all said the same thing.
 
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when you post that you can use shinx and litwick to counter floon, you remind me of bri saying that people can use elegyem and execute to counter meditite
love cherrypicking
Infamy

"Taillow is also viable for its ability to hit through Drifloon's Substitute with a STAB Boomburst."

It can't have Guts and Scrappy at the same time, so saying it's a good Guts user because it can hit a Ghost-type with a Normal-type move is wrong.
okay but it's still a floon check I just put it in wrong group
 

Rowan

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when i came back a few weeks ago and started playing around with LC a few weeks ago, i realised how all my teams were drifloon weak as fuck. so i thought of a few checks which i could easily edit into some of my teams, and thought boomburst taillow would be awesome.

so i get my boomburst taillow team, and come across a floon team, and send in taillow when floon comes out... obviously I just force it out a couple of times, until the floon user has subbed enough until it activates unburden and full power acrobatics. if rocks are up it's a OHKO, or if using LO taillow, the recoil has usually weakened it enough to OHKO. or if floon uses acrobatics once predicting the switch in before it's a OHKO.

Yeah, taillow's a cool check, but it's a very weak check. It can only handle a set-up drifloon at when it's at full health. realistically all it does is force floon out and get worn down until it dies. It can add a little bit of early game pressure to the floon user and that's about it


----------------------------------------

I'm not sure what @RayJay is saying with his Scraggy comparison... Playing with Scraggy itself doesn't require skill but playing with a Scraggy team still involves getting chip damage on its checks/counters until it's able to sweep. And anyway, I feel like Scraggy is the most broken shit in BW, and so do quite a few BW players, and if we're making comparisons to it, imo Drifloon should be banned... (basically I don't think Scraggy is a good comparison since many say it's broken, many say it's not, so you can easily argue 'drifloon is like scraggy so it isn't broken' or 'drifloon is like scraggy so it is broken')

But about the 'skill' thing... Having played with Floon on ladder, I actually don't think it does require too much skill as long as you know how to play with it. It's an unusual strategy which most new or non-LC players won't be used to, but once you do get used to it, does drifloon really require much skill? 95% of the time there's an optimum move to click.

If no sub, click sub,
if facing a physical attacker whilst itemless (cos knock off), click wisp,
if below 50% without item, click recycle,
if you get a free turn click acro
if threatened, switch out and wait till you can come in again and repeat the process

obviously there's a select few occasions when this isn't the case, but it's not hard to work out when these are.

Tbh, I don't know if it's broken or not... I honestly haven't experienced the meta enough to say so, and haven't fully explored all the possibilities. I haven't been active for weeks since Drifloon first came to prominence around LCPL time and built teams with new ideas of how to handle it and I don't feel like a simple ladder run to COIL is enough. From my short ladder run (18-5 record, 2245 coil) and a few other battles with LCers I would have said it's broken but I don't trust myself to make a call on it.

There is a lot of truth in Ray Jay's post about how metagames develop due to new threats, but has Ray Jay himself been active enough to see if the metagame can truly develop and adapt like how we adapted to Fletchling? But I would like to urge voters to consider the point that he makes carefully, because look how broken people thought fletch was at one point.
Having said that, people like TCR and Mambo who pride themselves on inventive teambuilding and finding new anti-meta strategies and have been around for ages are saying it's broken so yaknow...

oh and as for the encouraging new players thing... diglett discourages me from returning to LC much more than floon does. I really wonder if we'd be having this suspect if diglett got banned last time around..

not really a conclusive post haha, just a few thoughts from reading the thread.
 
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doomsday doink

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before we go back to talking about shinx, could someone explain why we're not doing a supermajority for this yet did it twice for diglett which is literally the sole reason it's not banned...
Because Diglett was being re-suspected, the TLs decided it'd have to be proven more definitely that the community thought it was broken. I don't know how Corporal Levi managed to gain access to both of their accounts but it happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
oh and as for the encouraging new players thing... diglett discourages me from returning to LC much more than floon does. I really wonder if we'd be having this suspect if diglett got banned last time around...
I believe it's about time we dealt with the real problem at hand...

Diglett has, and will continue to be a problem in this metagame. blarajan said it best when he said Diglett wins the battle at the teambuilding stage; if there's nothing for it to trap, then it has already done its job. The mon that you, the Diglett user, want removed is not on the opposing team. The threat "x", which you are using Diglett to support, has one less potential check. This has directly lead to 4/5 (80%) of the most recent suspect tests, including the current. The suspect test of Fletchling during the Missy era was based entirely around the limited amount of checks to Fletchling in a metagame where Diglett exists. Players realized that Fletch wasn't the problem during this test, and subsequently, the next two tests suspected Diglett itself, with more than 50% of voters voting ban in most recent test. Now, following the rise of Drifloon, we've finally come across a threat that does not have enough viable counters because Diglett is in the metagame. Drifloon by itself is a borderline mon, as shown by last suspect's Diglett-free ladder; it constricts teambuilding and forces players to run a few specific mons in order to win against it. However, Drifloon will rarely, if ever, beat reliable counters like RestTalk Chou or Pony in a Digless metagame. Here lies the current problem: Diglett traps and removes the majority of reliable answers to Drifloon (every bulky electric and fire type), leaving us in yet another metagame where a threat is undoubtedly unbalancing due to Diglett's presence. This isn't to say Drifloon isn't broken in a trapper-free environment, but rather Diglett is an enabler that clearly pushes it over the edge.
So go ahead, vote whatever you want about Drifloon; just remember the only metagame where it stands a shot of staying doesn't have Diglett.
 

ZoroDark

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Because Diglett was being re-suspected, the TLs decided it'd have to be proven more definitely that the community thought it was broken. I don't know how Corporal Levi managed to gain access to both of their accounts but it happened ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
This isn't how it works though. The first Diglett (+ Gothita) suspect had a 66% supermajority (fsr the linking button doesn't work on this dumb pc I'm forced to use, so here you go: http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/lc-diglett-and-gothita-suspect-voting.3549523/). The second one had a 60% supermajority (http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/oras-lc-2nd-diglett-suspect-voting.3568121/page-5). Now this one has a simple majority; tell me that doesn't look silly.

The only explanation I can think of for these ramdomly changing needed majorities is that for the first one the TL's fucked up because 66% is absurdly high. Not a single other suspect has recently had anything as high as as that. I guess 60% for a resuspect is fair because of controversy and what not, but since Drifloon's brokenness is so obviously tied to Diglett, this should require a 60% supermajority too.
 
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